PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

etchedpixels

Nothing in the notes about even fixing the masses of quest bugs, the dialog bugs and the background voices all being totally broken from this change.

So much for "better communication"

silvereyes

Still not even a mention of broken quests or zone guide in the patch notes. It astounds me that ZOS thinks this is working as intended.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

​After removing some unnecessary back and forth in addition to some off-topic comments from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

DarcyMardin

[snip]

Yeah, I just read the new patch notes, too. /sigh. Probably all we’re gonna get is their “ ‘splain” routine and a few bug fixes. Long experience has shown that what hits the PTS almost always goes live a month later.

Glad I didn’t pre-order the new chapter for any, or all, of my 4 accounts.

[edited to remove off-topic discussion]

Vrienda

KMarble wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Surely this can be as simple as untying the achievement from whatever code decides a delve or world boss is 'complete' right?

I believe that this is exactly what they tried to do, but because there are so many little (and big) things that are tied up to achievements, various were overlooked or forgotten. This is why people were getting the Precursor without having to do the quest on alts and weren't able to start the quest for the music box, for example.

No, it's not as simple as you might think, nor is it efficient (dare I say sane) to do this after so many years, expansions and short-sighted solutions that were applied all over the game.

Then there is no choice than to delay or cancel this until these things can be solved. Surely.... Though the patch notes today have made me lose a lot of hope.

RaddlemanNumber7

.

silvereyes wrote: »

Still not even a mention of broken quests or zone guide in the patch notes. It astounds me that ZOS thinks this is working as intended.

Doesn't the lack of changes show that, from ZOS's point of view, it is all working as intended?

Tandor

How disappointing that there's not a single reference in the patch notes to this system change, not even a single bug fix mentioned, let alone any kind of response to, or gesture towards, the copious and unprecedented feedback in this official thread, not even any known issues.

So, @ZOS_Kevin , where's the promised Q&A information? Where's the explanation about us all being confused in our reports on how this change is being implemented on the PTS, both those opposed to account-wide achievements being introduced after 8 years and those who welcome the principle but not the practical implementation? Surely over 1,100 posts responding to the company's request for feedback deserves some sort of meaningful response by now?

silvereyes

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

.

silvereyes wrote: »

Still not even a mention of broken quests or zone guide in the patch notes. It astounds me that ZOS thinks this is working as intended.

Doesn't the lack of changes show that, from ZOS's point of view, it is all working as intended?

Given the controversy, I would have expected at least a "Known issues" listing either this week or last, if it were not intended. Much of the furor would die down with just a couple of sentences to that affect. The fact they are actively choosing not to speaks volumes.

They could still surprise us with an 11th hour revert, like they did with sorc shield cast times, but I'm not hopeful.

jle30303

THIng is: ESO is not entirely quite the same as other MMOs, and doesn't even necessarily appeal to the same market - precisely thanks to being an "Elder Scrolls" product, from a franchise that has been primarily single player, with tons of quests all over the place in addition to the main story, and most importantly, REPLAYABILITY of these single-player events and quests.

This is not the same thing as the supposed "grind" of the same dungeon being done 40 times, and it doesn't matter which character you do it with, in the hope of getting a particular bit of desired loot this time. It's a completely different kind of replayability, where you want to achieve the same thing separately with multiple characters and the whole point *is* to do it with different characters, in different ways: and one of the very important things about this particular type of replayability is that each individual separate character has to know where he's been already.

This means that even if "achievements" and their rewards are account-wide (like Steam Achievements in Skyrim), then other things must be character-specific.

For instance, having the major Achievement for completing a quest line may grant you a title that is account-wide, but individual characters have to have a measureable, noticeable way of knowing whether THAT PARTICULAR character has completed that quest line.

And the same goes for minor Achievements. Public dungeons, world bosses, dolmens, discovery of points of interest, that kind of thing. At the very least, they have to appear black on the map if not completed by the specific character, or not at all if undiscovered by the specific character: so that even if you have the Achievement for beating that particular encounter or discovering that particular point of interest *on at least one character in the account*, it is also noted and displayed that you have not done it *on that specific character*, and should not turn white on the map until the specific character has beaten it.

Otherwise, REPLAYABILITY is damaged.

Note also that keeping actual progress character-specific, even if achievements are account-wide, would allow for cases where two actual conflicting achievements would require two different characters to complete a quest in different ways. For instance, compare this to the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim, where there are two conflicting achievements, either for destroying them, or following the quest line to its end: they cannot both be done on the same character (at least, not without save-and-reload and maintaining different savefile continuities.) So to get both achievements you have to do it AT LEAST ONCE with two different characters. After which, you've got both achievements, but then your third character still reaches the point of choice, and *he* still appears, from in-game, to have not completed either version of the quest.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

How disappointing that there's not a single reference in the patch notes to this system change, not even a single bug fix mentioned, let alone any kind of response to, or gesture towards, the copious and unprecedented feedback in this official thread, not even any known issues.

So, @ZOS_Kevin , where's the promised Q&A information? Where's the explanation about us all being confused in our reports on how this change is being implemented on the PTS, both those opposed to account-wide achievements being introduced after 8 years and those who welcome the principle but not the practical implementation? Surely over 1,100 posts responding to the company's request for feedback deserves some sort of meaningful response by now?

Well said as always. +1
I would like to add/ hope ZoS takes notice to:
The vast amount of responses to this thread, the overall concerns, problems, and opinions of responses, BUT also WHO are making the post.
Let me explain~ I really can't remember a upcoming change this debated or this dividing since joining forums in closed beta.
But what I noticed is the solidarity of "7-10 star forum users, they who have participated, give helpful advice, and been a active and positive influence , who have contributed with constructive and helpful feedback".
The 8+ year players who have weathered SO many major changes and still stayed loyal. ( I still remember the debate over adding trader kiosks to game!).
The dedicated players who have defended ZoS in not so favorable changes.

So please, when you get your "Q&A" ready, take a look at WHO feels the way they do.
Just my 2 drakes. I could be wrong stating this, but felt it needed saying.
Huzzah!

KMarble

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Wolf_Eye

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Is it the dungeon itself or is it the quest in the dungeon that triggers the dialogue? Do you happen to know?

ZOS_Kevin

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

TequilaFire

But why no known issues which are clearly bugs addressed?

tomofhyrule

Well, I was hoping we'd get something in the patch notes like "Hey, delves showing up as completed is unintended, that'll change soon" or "characters can still collect museum pieces even if the achievement has been unlocked," but nope. The only bug identified is that we can buy the skill lines in the crown store again even if the achievement is unlocked - not museum quests, not zone completion, not even the two queens in Elsweyr. Evidently those are intended?

Pity.

I do wonder why striking locales are still 'undiscovered' even though they have an achievement, while delves are not. Perhaps because delves have a 'cleared delve XYZ' and the 'Explorer' achieves? And at least now I know that I can't have any characters go through Elsweyr until I'm ready to send my main through for storytelling purposes, since I'd hate for him to have the broken version.

I'm disappointed that so many minor achievements - like clearing delves - is now shared account-wide. We know that some achievements can stay character-based (like the ones that the skill point is tied to the achieve and not from killing the boss, e.g. public dungeons and MA), I'd just have liked for some of these easy ones to still be on the character. I've been having trouble finding the desire to play at all right now since it feels like anything I do on my alts is useless since my main's already done it.

I know a lot of us are eagerly waiting for this Q&A. I'm not expecting anything from it, but even when they did the arena weapon switch, it wasn't like they deleted all Maelstrom Infernos on your alts because your main already had it. But we are seeing our character journals deleted completely. If this were for performance purposes, I'd be perfectly fine with a local (client-side) achievement tracker so those of us who are still concerned with using the achievements tab as a character history could still do so. I just don't want to lose my characters' individuality.

gresiac

Im feeling sad in what direction my favorite game is going…

Vrienda

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

I can confirm that he does indeed say you did the vaults of madness even if you haven't on that character yet. The NPC's also talk to you like you bought them a drink already if you have the achievement for that...

Wolfkeks

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Made a new char to test it.

Can confirm that he does act like you have already finished the dungeon even if you didn't set foot in it with a new char,

Also tested this with another achievement. If you have the Emp achievement you can get a special dialogue in White Gold Tower. New char has not entered Cyro and therefore not done the starter quests or the Alliance War skill line. You still get the special dialogue.

Saieden

TequilaFire wrote: »

But why no known issues which are clearly bugs addressed?

Generally in development, if the feedback is such that it may require you to re-evaluate the core of your design, it's simply not worth the dev hours to address the individual problems within that scope, and is much better to have them spent on issues in the areas that will largely go unchanged, but still take time to address. Their response given suggests this may very well be the case, (but of course they can't announce this publicly) and in that scenario, to take time to rethink things and "do nothing" is absolutely the right call.

Necrotech_Master

Wolfkeks wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Made a new char to test it.

Can confirm that he does act like you have already finished the dungeon even if you didn't set foot in it with a new char,

Also tested this with another achievement. If you have the Emp achievement you can get a special dialogue in White Gold Tower. New char has not entered Cyro and therefore not done the starter quests or the Alliance War skill line. You still get the special dialogue.

i actually had no idea there was special dialog in there for that, probably cause i rarely use my pvp related toons in pve, and when i do its for random dungeons which is not necessarily what comes up lol

is this special dialog just at the entrance/end?

Tandor

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

Wolf_Eye

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Made a new char to test it.

Can confirm that he does act like you have already finished the dungeon even if you didn't set foot in it with a new char,

Also tested this with another achievement. If you have the Emp achievement you can get a special dialogue in White Gold Tower. New char has not entered Cyro and therefore not done the starter quests or the Alliance War skill line. You still get the special dialogue.

i actually had no idea there was special dialog in there for that, probably cause i rarely use my pvp related toons in pve, and when i do its for random dungeons which is not necessarily what comes up lol

is this special dialog just at the entrance/end?

I believe it's at the beginning/entrance; Clivia Tharn, who fancies herself the "rightful emperor" will make a snarky remark if you happen to have the Emperor achievement.

Jaraal

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Glad I didn’t pre-order the new chapter for any, or all, of my 4 accounts.

Same. This will be the first new content that I won't purchase.

Utterly disrespectful.

Vrienda

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

Thanks for the update. The radio silence was starting to become deafening. It's a make or break issue for a lot of us one way or another. So tension is understandably quite high.

silvereyes

Another request for our EU friends across the pond: could you please try an Undaunted pledge or delve daily (Bolgrul) and see if the Undaunted reputation awarded has been changed? According to week 1 patch notes, it was supposed to be increased, but our testing so far has shown no extra reputation. It was still only rewarding 10 reputation when we tested with NA characters on PTS.

maximusrex45

Jaraal wrote: »

nd most are responding against this change. Defiantly not a "tiny bit of a fraction".

Vrienda wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Yup exactly now we wont need to waste our time redoing all acheivement on top of questing

God forbid you have to actually play the game.

It will actually more fully allow me to play the game because I won't have to worry about having a bunch of half-done achievements all over the place that will never get done because I want to hop on an alt and experience the story again, you know, the actual game.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

silvereyes

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

nd most are responding against this change. Defiantly not a "tiny bit of a fraction".

Vrienda wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Yup exactly now we wont need to waste our time redoing all acheivement on top of questing

God forbid you have to actually play the game.

It will actually more fully allow me to play the game because I won't have to worry about having a bunch of half-done achievements all over the place that will never get done because I want to hop on an alt and experience the story again, you know, the actual game.

Yeah, I don't understand why they reacted that way to you liking AwA.

Tracking achievement badges account-wide doesn't need to be a zero-sum game. Character progression and statistics could continue to be tracked in a separate character journal, an expanded zone guide (that isn't pre-filled), a new cross-zone story tracker, and/or even a side-by-side character achievements tab. Quests could continue to be repeatable, and NPC dialogs could respond to what the character has done instead of the account. Undaunted rep and XP could be rewarded for completing objectives instead of achievement badges.

If in-game objectives weren't so linked to achievement badges, we would be having a much different discussion right now.

I don't understand why people are threatened by the players that enjoy account-wide achievements. It's the implementation that needs work, not the fact that a lot of people like the feature.

majulook

Vrienda wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

Thanks for the update. The radio silence was starting to become deafening. It's a make or break issue for a lot of us one way or another. So tension is understandably quite high.

Agreed.

While I do like that they communicate that they are working on a Q&A.
No actual news does not leave me with much more that a glimmer of hope that it gets fixed.

willymancer69

I appreciate the forum post from the mods a few messages above.

I will say between the title changes and the image above of a developer comment in the PTS patch notes, it feels like the end game is being targeted to be specifically pushed out of the community.

Personally, I think the toggle changes suggested in the patch notes are healthy and will make this niche skill used by more players of varying skill levels across a wider breadth of content. However, instead of a statement like this that feels inclusive, the exclusive-feeling statement attached was made.

Unlike prior patch notes, this comment felt uniquely aggressive. As gently as possible, it also felt rude and targeted.

Title changes affect a much, much larger group than endgame folks. However, I do want to raise how the attached dev comment in addition to the title changes are making much of the endgame community feel. We feel as though we're being punished for enjoying playing the game to the point of understanding the mechanics at a depth where we can min / max. It may not be the intention for the patch notes to come across this way, but I think this topic should be raised alongside the title changes of the way recent actions by ZoS are coming across their audience.