PVP Suggestion: Jumping in combat should cost stamina

DrSlaughtr

I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers but hear me out. Jumping in combat is a valid defense against melee skills and heavy attacks. Many people use this tactic, including yours truly.

I know this is a little less of an issue on PC because of the mouse but it is VERY affective with a controller due to get limitations of thumb stick reaction time.

I'm not saying it needs to cost as much as roll dodge. But say, 1000 stamina, would keep bunny hoppers from spamming their aoes while bouncing all around like a kangaroo.

Gilvoth

Absolutely this needs to be implemented, we have been asking for this many many times throughout the years.
it. needs. to. happen.
it should be that it happen only during Combat and, the only part i disagree with you about is the cost, it should cost 1/2 of your stamina pool - making it so that after your 2nd Jump you will be depleted of stamina.
just honest feedback.

Jierdanit

Gilvoth wrote: »

Absolutely this needs to be implemented, we have been asking for this many many times throughout the years.
it. needs. to. happen.
it should be that it happen only during Combat and, the only part i disagree with you about is the cost, it should cost 1/2 of your stamina pool - making it so that after your 2nd Jump you will be depleted of stamina.
just honest feedback.

You should probably be honest and say YOU have been asking for that and not "we"

Gilvoth

Jierdanit wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Absolutely this needs to be implemented, we have been asking for this many many times throughout the years.
it. needs. to. happen.
it should be that it happen only during Combat and, the only part i disagree with you about is the cost, it should cost 1/2 of your stamina pool - making it so that after your 2nd Jump you will be depleted of stamina.
just honest feedback.

You should probably be honest and say YOU have been asking for that and not "we"

none of these threads are from me, they are from the community.

the list is actually in the Hundreds, but, i will list just a few threads where "the community" is asking jumping to cost stamina.
just type in the forum search "stamina jumping" and youll see hundreds of listings of threads about this.
heres some threads to give proof that this is not me, its from thousands of people.
including the thread we are in right now, was not started by me.

1) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586231/add-stamina-cost-for-jumping/p1

2) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/494900/bunnyhop-long-jump-exploiting/p1

3) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/473418/jumping-line-of-sight/p1

4) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411895/jumping-dodge-should-consume-stamina/p1

5) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328185/should-jumping-around-cost-stamina/p1

6) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140349/shouldnt-jumping-cost-a-little-bit-of-stamina/p1

7) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4367497#Comment_4367497

8) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5417338#Comment_5417338

9) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/370210/should-jumping-during-combat-cost-stamina/p1

10) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328548/idea-jumping-add-a-small-stamina-cost/p1

Abstraqt

Absolutely shouldn't be implemented, [snip]

[edited for saying it was a daft idea]

DrSlaughtr

Abstraqt wrote: »

Absolutely shouldn't be implemented, [snip]

Why do you say that? If it's an effective defense, why should it not cost anything in combat? Happy to hear you out.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Abstraqt wrote: »

Absolutely shouldn't be implemented, [snip]

Why do you say that? If it's an effective defense, why should it not cost anything in combat? Happy to hear you out.

[edited to remove quote]

By that logic, any movement at all in combat should cost stamina.

Jumping provides some minimal targeting relief. But not anywhere near the amount of targeting relief just running through someone or line of sighting a small rock does.

jaws343

I've not once had someone jumping be the reason I was unable to kill them. Unless they were jumping off a wall or platform to the ground. Bunny hopping, no, not a problem.

Vevvev

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

DrSlaughtr

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an effective defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

Vevvev wrote: »

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

So if someone is bunny hopping to avoid getting hit while spamming and attack like jabs, someone who's only damage is direct has to jump up and down while also spamming a skill that won't line up while also using both analog sticks to keep on target?

jaws343

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an affecting defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being and to be obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

It matters for a number of reasons:

Sometimes you just need to hop onto a rock, or over an uneven surface, or onto a parapet on a wall, or even a slight hop to regain line of sight on an opponent hiding behind other enemies. It would be incredibly stupid if, after missing 1 or 2 jumps to get onto a rock, or to climb over the edge of some stairs that you get stunned and now have no stamina left to actually do anything.

jaws343

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an affecting defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being and obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

Vevvev wrote: »

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

So if someone is bunny hopping to avoid getting hit while spamming and attack like jabs, someone who's only damage is direct has to jump up and down while also spamming a skill that won't line up while also using both analog sticks to keep on target?

I mean, the best defense in that situation would be to walk through the opponent spamming jabs.

So I guess we should make that cost stamina as well.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an affecting defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being and obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

Vevvev wrote: »

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

So if someone is bunny hopping to avoid getting hit while spamming and attack like jabs, someone who's only damage is direct has to jump up and down while also spamming a skill that won't line up while also using both analog sticks to keep on target?

Doesn't sound like a problem to me but the sensitivity of the analog sticks and quickness of the player's fingers. Also if this is such a massive issue for you all then maybe you should start asking for a kind of trailing effect on things you target with your controller. So once something is targeted your camera will trail with them slightly to make keeping with your target and target acquisition easier.

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an affecting defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being and obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

Vevvev wrote: »

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

So if someone is bunny hopping to avoid getting hit while spamming and attack like jabs, someone who's only damage is direct has to jump up and down while also spamming a skill that won't line up while also using both analog sticks to keep on target?

Doesn't sound like a problem to me but the sensitivity of the analog sticks and quickness of the player's fingers. Also if this is such a massive issue for you all then maybe you should start asking for a kind of trailing effect on things you target with your controller. So once something is targeted your camera will trail with them slightly to make keeping with your target and target acquisition easier.

To be honest, I don't think you know how ESO plays on a controller. The only way you can adjust thumbstick sensitivity beyond the limited way in the menu that has little effect, is to buy a pro controller. But even those do not make them move faster.

Your suggestion is a lot more complicated than simply adding a small stamina cost to jumping in combat. I go back to my previous statement. If he's an effective defense, it should cost. If you don't think it is, then what's it matter if it costs?

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, it's a lesser issue on PC. It's very effective on console. The counter argument to those points is if it's not an effective defense in your opinion, then what does it matter if it costs stamina?

Either is an affecting defense, in which case it should cost something, or it's not and people do it up be obnoxious, in which case you'd only lose out on being and obnoxious.

It's definitely the former. I avoid getting hit left and right by doing this before or after roll dodging.

Vevvev wrote: »

I really don't see the point in making it cost stamina when you can easily just jump after them for free as well.

So if someone is bunny hopping to avoid getting hit while spamming and attack like jabs, someone who's only damage is direct has to jump up and down while also spamming a skill that won't line up while also using both analog sticks to keep on target?

Doesn't sound like a problem to me but the sensitivity of the analog sticks and quickness of the player's fingers. Also if this is such a massive issue for you all then maybe you should start asking for a kind of trailing effect on things you target with your controller. So once something is targeted your camera will trail with them slightly to make keeping with your target and target acquisition easier.

To be honest, I don't think you know how ESO plays on a controller. The only way you can adjust thumbstick sensitivity beyond the limited way in the menu that has little effect, is to buy a pro controller. But even those do not make them move faster.

Your suggestion is a lot more complicated than simply adding a small stamina cost to jumping in combat. I go back to my previous statement. If he's an effective defense, it should cost. If you don't think it is, then what's it matter if it costs?

More complicated, maybe, but it then doesn't change the game for us across the internet. Another way to combat these people is making a ranged combat build. The farther you get from someone they less they move in relation to your field of view, and with abilities like Flame Clench to keep them back it'll help combat these jumpers.

Rohamad_Ali

Jumping doesn't provide any benefits like dodge roll does. Maybe a los benefit but so does running around walls so my humble opinion is there is no need for stamina cost.

NordSwordnBoard

Well, I like to jump from the 2nd floor platform (Arrius Keep) across to the little platform over the door, then over to the opposite platform. I may need to roll in between or at the end. Sometimes, I'll jump to an area I doubt the enemy will follow to escape or kite. It would be bad to lose stamina during these moments to a jump penalty. I'm not jumping the whole time, just when running there won't work.
The combat bug isn't your suggestion's fault, but we could add jump penalty duration to the list of things the combat bug effects.
Flame clench/knock-backs is so much fun to use on them, sometimes getting them stuck in mid air to die helplessly. I do not feel any sympathy for using that solution though - it's just positional desynch *** for tat.

What if the hit box never leaves the ground? Or is only able to rise above ground aoe the minimal distance required?

MentalxHammer

I wholeheartedly disagree. Targeting in ESO is extremely easy, there are already aim assist systems in place that make landing attacks nominal. If you are having difficulty hitting your targets perhaps lower your DPI or consider trying an aim training simulation.

Removing jump from combat won't help you hit your targets either. There is a set travel speed while you are jumping, all of my stamina characters exceed this speed while walking or sprinting. Jumping actually slows down most stamina characters in PvP, thats why you usually only see staff players constantly jumping.

It's a shame something so inherent to gameplay in any game is causing you trouble. Unfortunately there is a minority of players experiencing this issue, so your best bet is to just keep practicing. And lets be honest, a single jump costing half of your stamina bar? This would be 4-5x the cost of any stamina ability in the game, but wouldn't offer any healing/damage/buffs/debuffs, and would actually make stamina players less mobile? Let's be real here mate.

Abstraqt

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Abstraqt wrote: »

Absolutely shouldn't be implemented, [snip]

Why do you say that? If it's an effective defense, why should it not cost anything in combat? Happy to hear you out.

[edited to remove quote]

It's a massive change to the pace and play style of pvp in this game, jumping doesn't add defense the same way that dodge rolling does and even if it did, everyone can do it so it's not something that is unfair.

MentalxHammer

I find the argument that jumping is an active defense to be a bit disingenuous.

There is a solid argument that mobility is an active defense, and I agree that movement speed is a powerful active defense. Movement speed allows you to move out of AoE, disengage from a fight, quickly move behind line of sight options and stay behind them.

Jumping does not allow you any additional mobility - movement speed bonuses are not applied to jump. I am curious to hear the logic behind why jumping is an active defense.

The only logic I can think of is that it makes your character more difficult to target. But realistically is this an issue? ESO is known for having extremely easy targeting. There are a lot of layers to skill in ESO PvP, I wouldn't consider targeting something that is difficult or needs changing at all.

Zekka

TheEndBringer wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think you know how ESO plays on a controller. The only way you can adjust thumbstick sensitivity beyond the limited way in the menu that has little effect, is to buy a pro controller. But even those do not make them move faster.

That's an issue with ESO's console version which I agree with, the camera max sensitivity is way too low and ZOS should increase it.
PC players who play with controllers don't have this issue because the first thing they do is fiddle with the UserSettings.txt and set the "SET GamepadSensitivityThirdPerson.2" line beyond what is allowed in game, so ask for ZOS to fix that instead of asking for a change that would make the game worse.

DrSlaughtr

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I find the argument that jumping is an active defense to be a bit disingenuous.

There is a solid argument that mobility is an active defense, and I agree that movement speed is a powerful active defense. Movement speed allows you to move out of AoE, disengage from a fight, quickly move behind line of sight options and stay behind them.

Jumping does not allow you any additional mobility - movement speed bonuses are not applied to jump. I am curious to hear the logic behind why jumping is an active defense.

The only logic I can think of is that it makes your character more difficult to target. But realistically is this an issue? ESO is known for having extremely easy targeting. There are a lot of layers to skill in ESO PvP, I wouldn't consider targeting something that is difficult or needs changing at all.

I've already stated that argument but I'll happily say it again.

If I'm on my templar or any other class with an aoe spammable, I can bunny hop around my enemies while nailing every attack. Meanwhile their single target attacks do not fire because I'm LOSing without having to work for it.

You could make the target hit box bigger but that would be much more of a negative than a small stamina cost.

I used it all the time on one character. I deal with it all the time on another. If you want to jump repeatedly while attacking, it should cost something. If it didn't help people wouldn't do it.

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I wholeheartedly disagree. Targeting in ESO is extremely easy, there are already aim assist systems in place that make landing attacks nominal. If you are having difficulty hitting your targets perhaps lower your DPI or consider trying an aim training simulation.

Removing jump from combat won't help you hit your targets either. There is a set travel speed while you are jumping, all of my stamina characters exceed this speed while walking or sprinting. Jumping actually slows down most stamina characters in PvP, thats why you usually only see staff players constantly jumping.

It's a shame something so inherent to gameplay in any game is causing you trouble. Unfortunately there is a minority of players experiencing this issue, so your best bet is to just keep practicing. And lets be honest, a single jump costing half of your stamina bar? This would be 4-5x the cost of any stamina ability in the game, but wouldn't offer any healing/damage/buffs/debuffs, and would actually make stamina players less mobile? Let's be real here mate.

I don't understand why the first go to for people on this forum is to doubt people know how to play just because they don't like the suggestion. As I said, I use this strategy myself. And I'm very good at what I do.

Respectfully I don't see how 500 to even 1000 stamina cost to a single jump is a huge burden. It would only significantly impact the people who do it over and over and over and over while attacking.

Someone mentioned if we do this then movement must cost stamina. Running already does.

Naftal

If they mess with the mobility system of the game I'd probably quit.

However if they just add it to consoles, I don't mind.

buttaface

Agree with OP, and it would be easy to have it have a small cost for the first jump, then progressively higher, dealing with the "I like to jump off stuff from to time" rationalization handily.

Bunny hopping as a tactic should be done away with totally in this game and in all MMOs.

Naftal

How often do people even use actual bunny hopping for good benefit? Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing: bunny hopping isn't just spamming jump around, it's jumping in the same direction while keeping up your momentum, which can only be done on flat surfaces.

OBJnoob

This is a super weird topic to me... I'm on console, been pvping for years, and have never noticed enemies not getting targeted/hit while airborne. I'm a jumper myself and I've never noticed feeling tankier in any way while doing so.

The argument "if there's no benefit why do you do it," is pretty simple. I'm bored. I'm not a great player I'm a good player... and even still I'm just looking for more things I can do in a gcd. That's why I jump. Because I can.

The closest thing to meaningful I can mention is that sometimes I'll jump in order to quickly change my potion and not stop moving. Which alone might be worth talking about (but in a game that regards animation canceling as skill are we really worried about pot swapping?)

I'd absolutely have to see some clips of people struggling to hit jumpers in a relatively no lag situation to take this seriously at all.

And the proposed solution is so laughably severe as well. Jumping while fighting is for style points. No real benefit.

xDeusEJRx

I think this is kind of asinine. I know jumping is a rampant thing on console but I can genuinely only think of about 3 scenarios where jumping is actually useful.

1. Jumping on your mount and quickly opening the map while airborne to check your location and then close before hitting the ground. This isn't detrimental at all
2. Jumping and trying to swap your current consumable item. I do this sometimes so I can keep my mobility up while I swap consumables, my characters have different consumables slotted on different slots so sometimes it takes awhile for me to switch to a specific item I want and I'll jump then quick-switch in the air so I can keep up momentum while switching to an appropriate consumable
3. Airborne blocking, this is probably the most of a case you can make. Being able to jump block incoming hits, like mages guild meteor, sometimes I'll use snare immunity when it's telegraphed then jump block it, so I keep my mobility up while blocking. In this case, I guess there's an argument to be made since you would move slightly faster than block-walking

Overall, I don't think jumping provides much of a benefit in active combat that would warrant any changes, at least nothing that makes it prominent enough more-so than regular movement speed buffs.
In all honesty, I think it'll hurt the more casual players than it does any "Sweaty's" that people like to claim jump around all the time, cause when casuals get hit with any hard CC or knock up/knock back they tend to do panic reactions and I could see them blowing stamina jumping in reaction if such a system were in place.

MentalxHammer

[/quote]
I've already stated that argument but I'll happily say it again.

If I'm on my templar or any other class with an aoe spammable, I can bunny hop around my enemies while nailing every attack. Meanwhile their single target attacks do not fire because I'm LOSing without having to work for it.[/quote]

I don’t think LOS is the proper way to describe this. In this example you say your enemies single target abilities won’t fire because you are breaking line of sight, while this is true the typical usage of LOS refers to a loss of targeting by positioning a physical object between your enemy and yourself.

A more accurate description of what you are talking about is just a loss of targeting on your opponents end. I’m not trying to attack your personal skill at all, but the root of the issue you are describing is difficulty targeting, which most players consider to be a nominal issue. There’s no reason why ZOS should invest time and effort into something that only a small minority of players consider to be an issue.

OBJnoob

How high do characters even jump in this game?? Not very. Aim at their belly button and you'll never miss. "LOS" is definitely the wrong term.

MentalxHammer

If for some reason ZOS did make adjustments to this, the right way to go about it would be to make player hit boxes extend into the floor, this way there would be no chance of losing targeting on jumping players.

Stamina cost on jump is an extreme implementation in comparison.

Amottica

far too many pebbles that stop our characters in their tracks requiring a jump to get over for the suggestion to be implemented.