why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

As I stated twice in this post. Other game companies realized this issue and made changes to their game to solve the problem and the fact is, fake tanks queuing for randoms is a real problem that can only be addressed by the studio through design changes.

The question is, are they interested in doing so?

They could make changes if they decided that this player behavior should be curtailed. They have already made a change to pull people into any boss fights a speed runner is doing. Some people prefer the faster runs.

This comes down to a matter of taste, not the product being faulty. The dungeons work. The queues find you players. And you have tools to manage issues in the meantime. That's not a faulty product. That is you wanting a change in policy for the game to be more fun.

I don't even disagree with the idea that fake roles should be addressed. But it doesn't make the dungeons a lemon.

ZOS cannot reasonably be expected to provide anything more than a full group. If they chose to do more that's great, but if they have given you the tools to succeed that's all they are required to do to make the product not faulty.

Anyway, I think I'll bow out of this discussion now as there is already threads discussing fake tanks. This thread is about eso+ members wanting a separate dlc queue.

Raideen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

As I stated twice in this post. Other game companies realized this issue and made changes to their game to solve the problem and the fact is, fake tanks queuing for randoms is a real problem that can only be addressed by the studio through design changes.

The question is, are they interested in doing so?

They could make changes if they decided that this player behavior should be curtailed. They have already made a change to pull people into any boss fights a speed runner is doing. Some people prefer the faster runs.

This comes down to a matter of taste, not the product being faulty. The dungeons work. The queues find you players. And you have tools to manage issues in the meantime. That's not a faulty product. That is you wanting a change in policy for the game to be more fun.

People are not allowed to experience the game as the content was designed. This is a fault with the design of the game, which makes this aspect of the game faulty.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't even disagree with the idea that fake roles should be addressed. But it doesn't make the dungeons a lemon.

I never said it was a lemon, I used lemon laws as an example to prove that a product can be purchased in good faith that is not reliable/working as advertised. My point is that the concept that a customer knows what they are fully getting into when purchasing a product is not entirely true, due to the complex nature of some products like automobiles, or video games.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS cannot reasonably be expected to provide anything more than a full group. If they chose to do more that's great, but if they have given you the tools to succeed that's all they are required to do to make the product not faulty.

Sure they can. They sold a product and people purchased that product in good faith with a reasonable expectation of being able to run the content and succeed. Today, in many cases this is not happening, as evidence of how many people create threads about the problem...which are a very tiny fraction of the people who have issues with the current system. Most people do not come to the forums. They just take their wallets elsewhere.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, I think I'll bow out of this discussion now as there is already threads discussing fake tanks. This thread is about eso+ members wanting a separate dlc queue.

Because of fake tanks ruining the queues. The two issues are directly related and intertwined.

Parasaurolophus

I don’t know guys what game you are playing. Is it really possible for someone to have problems on normal difficulty? I do not understand. Explain to me please. You need crystals and experience, and you don't want to play better and harder content. What for?

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

Sure they can. They sold a product and people purchased that product in good faith with a reasonable expectation of being able to run the content and succeed.
Because of fake tanks ruining the queues. The two issues are directly related and intertwined.

You can succeed with fake tanks, and some players prefer to run with them for faster runs. The main reason people don't want to run these dungeons is the length and difficulty, and this issue predates RND being flooded fakes. Your hangup is the fakes, but many others just want easier dungeons just because they are faster. That's all. The length difference of Fungal Grotto vs Lair of Maarselok is significant.

LashanW

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I don’t know guys what game you are playing. Is it really possible for someone to have problems on normal difficulty? I do not understand. Explain to me please. You need crystals and experience, and you don't want to play better and harder content. What for?

I'll try to explain why I need so many crystals and why I have to step into beginner content in order to get them efficiently. I don't really care about xp at this point, I'm already over 2k CP.

I have 15 characters, all roles. I go hardcore meta on one of them which is my trusty magsorc (to do hardest content in the game, which is DLC trial/dungeon trifectas). Others I play more casually with builds I find cool (often not exactly meta). Sometimes I try out PvP with all of them (only BGs at the moment, Cyrodiil is dead to me). So I need to create a lot of different gear to suit their individual needs. And this is a never-ending process due to changes every patch.

Better and harder content don't give nearly enough crystals for this,
HM pledges give 5 crystals each (daily per character)
HM trial clears give 5 (this is same as normal reward. weekly for clears)
Leaderboard rewards give 10 (weekly)
Solo arenas are no better.

Yet beginner content (RND) give 10 crystals per day per character. This content (even normal DLC) isn't even remotely hard for experienced players. They've been nerfed to oblivion. A competent DD can tank these without much issues.

DLC normal dungeons are just time consuming, not hard.
Look at frostvault laser boss. It's just a waiting game there now. Lasers do nothing, adds are trivial. We are just waiting for it become vulnerable again. Look at lair of maarselok tree boss, it goes invulnerable much quicker now -> more waiting. Moongrave Fane gargoyle boss, same thing. You don't need to bother with a lot of mechanics in normal. But they are still time consuming compared to base game dungeons. So turning off ESO+ saves you time in this particular case. That's not ok for a paid service. (a lot of things have both advantages and disadvantages sure, but paid services shouldn't have ANY disadvantages)

I don't think splitting queues is a good idea either. Best solution would be to raise the crystal reward for content that is actually harder (imagine if you received 50 crystals for a vCR+3 clear, or 150 crystals for a Gryphon Heart clear). Then I wouldn't have to speed-run RNDs which potentially ruins new player experience (especially for those who never speak in group chat).

Raideen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sure they can. They sold a product and people purchased that product in good faith with a reasonable expectation of being able to run the content and succeed.
Because of fake tanks ruining the queues. The two issues are directly related and intertwined.

You can succeed with fake tanks, and some players prefer to run with them for faster runs. The main reason people don't want to run these dungeons is the length and difficulty, and this issue predates RND being flooded fakes. Your hangup is the fakes, but many others just want easier dungeons just because they are faster. That's all. The length difference of Fungal Grotto vs Lair of Maarselok is significant.

Fake tanks are DPS who queue as a tank for the fast entry into the dungeon, and who do not slot a taunt or defensive abilities/armor to be more tanky. I que almost DAILY as a DPS in a tank role, but I only do so with a taunt and I swap some armor to increase resistances. I also queue with a low level player to ensure I do not get content I can not handle. I do this out of respect for the two future dungeon mates who I do not even know.

The people who queue as DPS, for a fast run for their crystals often, in fact more often than not, rush ahead with no regard for the people trying to do the quest or who need to kill all the bosses (fungal grotto 1) to farm gear. They have no respect for the other dungeon mates.

The "main reason people don't want to run these dungeons is the length and difficulty" is not true. The MAIN reason people dont want to run these dungeons is because they want "fast Transmute Crystals" and so they eschew DLC content which does take longer and is harder. I would even argue the main reason is not "fast Transmute Crystals" but the crystal cost for remaking gear if your collections tab is not full and the cap on Transmute crystals in the first place.

The bottom line is that it always comes down to Transmute Crystals. People either want to farm them fast and do so at the risk of others enjoyment, or they want to farm the gear to get the Transmute Crystal cost down.

ZOS needs to get rid of the antiquated cap on Transmute Crystals and include Transmute Crystals into every day happenings. Random drops from mobs, Crafting Dailies (these should have come from crafting dailies from the start) etc.

When the primary means of obtaining Transmute Crystals is no longer tied to daily dungeons, the problem of fake tanks and speeding through content will all but disappear, except in the case of weapon farming for the collections tab. THAT problem will only be eliminated if weapons are included into the other bosses reward pools, or if the cost to make gear is dropped to 25 regardless of how many items are in the collections tab. People will still need to farm the items for the ones they want to reconstruct.

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

The "main reason people don't want to run these dungeons is the length and difficulty" is not true.

This has been frequently requested since long before the transmute system even existed. And nobody complains about getting the base game dungeons even under the transmute system because those dungeons are short and easy, so there is less room for player disruption and less dealing with bad teammates.

The transmute crystals simply exacerbated a problem that some people have always had with the DLC, they take a long time and are more complex compared to the base game dungeons.

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

So turning off ESO+ saves you time in this particular case. That's not ok for a paid service. (a lot of things have both advantages and disadvantages sure, but paid services shouldn't have ANY disadvantages)

I don't think splitting queues is a good idea either. Best solution would be to raise the crystal reward for content that is actually harder (imagine if you received 50 crystals for a vCR+3 clear, or 150 crystals for a Gryphon Heart clear). Then I wouldn't have to speed-run RNDs which potentially ruins new player experience (especially for those who never speak in group chat).

I actually don't agree that paid services should never have disadvantages. I think it depends on what they are and what solutions can reasonably be applied. But I do think companies should erase disadvantages when they are reasonably able to do so, which is most of the time. For example, a reasonable disadvantage to that character creation pack is that it's now harder to find other purchases, promos, etc. That's a negative consequence of owning a lot of cosmetics. I do think zos could do more about it, but they can't really reasonably remove the problem entirely. The more stuff you own the harder it will be to find stuff.

As for rewarding more crystals for harder content, that's a tough one for me. On the one hand, I think it's a no brainer and pretty fair solution. Do more, get more. Easy.

On the other hand, I have noticed a remarkable increase in the quality of the vet queue now that all the people who just ran it for better rewards have exited. Like I am getting more teammates with decent dps, and I even completed Black Drake Villa's hardmode the other day with a PUG. When people want to do the content rather than feel they need to do the content because they are chasing some shiny, the competency level and willingness to work together or take a bit longer really goes up.

It's between a rock and a hard place for me on that one, but I can't deny it's a fair and reasonable solution.

Raideen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The "main reason people don't want to run these dungeons is the length and difficulty" is not true.

This has been frequently requested since long before the transmute system even existed. And nobody complains about getting the base game dungeons even under the transmute system because those dungeons are short and easy, so there is less room for player disruption and less dealing with bad teammates.

The transmute crystals simply exacerbated a problem that some people have always had with the DLC, they take a long time and are more complex compared to the base game dungeons.

There is no doubt the DLC dungeons take longer and are harder and folks do not like that, but that is because dungeon finder runs often net in a disbanded group due to failing the harder content...so folks would rather get easier/non DLC, but the need to power run dungeons did not happen until trasnmute crystals were implemented into the daily random which is when we really started seeing the issue of fast run/fake tanks/lack of respect towards the rest of the dungeon mates. Collections also highlights this.

You are conflating two separate issues as having the same core, but that is not the case.

etchedpixels

AlnilamE wrote: »

There is no doubt the DLC dungeons take longer and are harder and folks do not like that, but that is because dungeon finder runs often net in a disbanded group due to failing the harder content...so folks would rather get easier/non DLC, but the need to power run dungeons did not happen until trasnmute crystals were implemented into the daily random which is when we really started seeing the issue of fast run/fake tanks/lack of respect towards the rest of the dungeon mates. Collections also highlights this.

You are conflating two separate issues as having the same core, but that is not the case.

Collections is a bit different - if you are a good player you can solo a lot of the base dungeons you want to fill the collections up from. If a couple of high dps folks walk in through the door and crash arx with ring of the wild hunt on ten times it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Also collections is much more of a self-ending thing. I've now got all the gear from most base dungeons. I suspect a lot of people have - so gear runners have an end goal at which point they need to go to DLC content anyway. Crystals get consumed so if you do any theorycrafting, like playing with strange sets or want to keep your low level alt tank in stuff like Yolnakrins and Worms you get through them at a fair rate.

The crystal crap is btw irrelevant - you can turn crystals into gear for 25 and get 25 back if you know a full set. Fixing that would reduce the hoarding ability but just make the farming worse.

peacenote

SilverBride wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The main reason I don't queue for randoms is because I don't want to commit to the amount of time a DLC dungeon requires.

Then there is the added difficulty... WHY are DLC dungeons more difficult? What is the reason for this? All normal dungeons should have comparable difficulty so why this distinction?

Actually, I suspect that all of the DLC dungeons are comparable in difficulty, or reasonably so with the later ones. They just aren't the same difficulty as base game normal dungeons, which are not even comparable with each other.

WHY aren't DLC dungeons the same difficulty as the base game dungeons? I'd like to know the reason why they are more difficult, because this is the issue.

The issue is not that DLC dungeons are more difficult, tbh. The issue is that, due to power creep, the base game dungeons are now much easier than they were than at release.

Remember not being able to clear Selene's Web, DC II, Wayrest II, BC II, etc. with a pug? Because I do. But it happens much less frequently now, because experienced players can solo and duo these dungeons today, and those folks can often carry the group.

The way I look at it, if I get FG I in a random queue, I just hit the lottery. It's a "gimmee" question on a test. I'm happy it is there but I don't have the expectation that all questions will be that easy.

Personally I would be extremely disappointed if new dungeons presented little challenge like the old ones, as it would seem like ZOS is short changing us. And I like getting all dungeons in my random queue, so if this were changed in some way I would like to see an "all version."

But the real solution is to update the older dungeons and add different ways PvE players can obtain transmutes so that people don't feel trapped into "doing a quick dungeon every day" and then get frustrated when they don't hit that lottery and they only had 20 min available when they queued.

Raideen

etchedpixels wrote: »

Collections is a bit different - if you are a good player you can solo a lot of the base dungeons you want to fill the collections up from. If a couple of high dps folks walk in through the door and crash arx with ring of the wild hunt on ten times it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Except this is not the case. I see people rushing to the boss and asking for "XYZ" weapons daily.

etchedpixels wrote: »

Also collections is much more of a self-ending thing. I've now got all the gear from most base dungeons. I suspect a lot of people have - so gear runners have an end goal at which point they need to go to DLC content anyway. Crystals get consumed so if you do any theorycrafting, like playing with strange sets or want to keep your low level alt tank in stuff like Yolnakrins and Worms you get through them at a fair rate.

This is exactly why I farm them in pugs for armor for collection and for crystals. I need both. But people whos goal is collecting armor and speed running to the end is the same as people collecting transmute crystals. The net effect is the same to the rest of the party.

etchedpixels wrote: »

The crystal crap is btw irrelevant - you can turn crystals into gear for 25 and get 25 back if you know a full set. Fixing that would reduce the hoarding ability but just make the farming worse.

Not at all irrelevant. If people could amass transmute crystals through everyday content and have thousands sitting in the bank like crafting items, then you'd have less people doing focus runs to obtain transmute crystals. The artificial limit on transmute crystals has an impact on the amount of fake tanks and rushing DPS that queue for a random.

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

which is when we really started seeing the issue of fast run/fake tanks/lack of respect towards the rest of the dungeon mates. Collections also highlights this.

We started seeing those issues before transmutes as well. And you're the one that brought up fake tanks, I did not. My point has consistently been that people wanting a separate queue is separte from the fake tank issue. You are the one insisting on conflating the two.

And if you want, the only conflation that they have is that they exacerbated the long standing issue that people don't want to do the harder and longer dungeons, they just want to get their daily done quickly.

Raideen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We started seeing those issues before transmutes as well. And you're the one that brought up fake tanks, I did not. My point has consistently been that people wanting a separate queue is separte from the fake tank issue. You are the one insisting on conflating the two.

The issues existed previously because of gear farming. That problem is greatly exasperated because of the collections tab and transmute crystals. Transmute are needed now more than ever. More transmute crystals = more dungeon runs = more take tanks. Secondly, they are not conflated, they are intertwined.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And if you want, the only conflation that they have is that they exacerbated the long standing issue that people don't want to do the harder and longer dungeons, they just want to get their daily done quickly.

And people want the daily done quickly because they need transmute crystals and because we cant save a ton of them people have to farm them. Because people need so many of them, they have to run more dungeons, but becasue there is only so much time in a day these people want to run dungeons fast but because que times can often exceed 45 minutes for a DPS, these people queue as a tank to expedite their transmute crystal farm.
The issues are intertwined.

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

The issues existed previously because of gear farming.

Yes. That was exactly MY point earlier. Therefore fake tanking is a separate issue. You are the one that called it conflation earlier, so I don't know you're acting like you're correcting me while regurgitating my own earlier point back to me.

Fake tanks are nothing more than a exacerbating factor of this issue. This thread is about a separate queue. Removing transmute crystals wouldn't make eso+ subscribers feel less buyer's remorse. They'd still be complaining because the issue is with the very design of dlc dungeons.

They are harder and more time consuming.

Amottica

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Raideen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The issues existed previously because of gear farming.

Yes. That was exactly MY point earlier. Therefore fake tanking is a separate issue. You are the one that called it conflation earlier, so I don't know you're acting like you're correcting me while regurgitating my own earlier point back to me.

Fake tanks are nothing more than a exacerbating factor of this issue. This thread is about a separate queue. Removing transmute crystals wouldn't make eso+ subscribers feel less buyer's remorse. They'd still be complaining because the issue is with the very design of dlc dungeons.

They are harder and more time consuming.

I went over this previously, a number of times. Fake tanking and gear farming/transmute farming are interlinked/intertwined.

I gave a step by step process in my last comment. People want fast runs and they cant get fast runs as DPS, so they queue as a fake tank. They want fast runs because they need transmute crystals. ESO+ can make it harder for them to get fast runs because of the inclusion of harder/longer content.

[snip]

Some folks are not subbing to ESO+ so they dont have to run vets, this is not buyers remorse, its an observation and acknowledgement that ESO+ can make life in game less fun. You are literally paying to make life harder, or as others said "paying to lose".

You have to ask the question. Why do people run dungeons? Of course this answer is all over the place as folks play for different reasons. But its a very safe assumption to say that most folks run content for the rewards. The reason people run dungeons, is for the gear drops, the skill points and the transmute crystals.

Removing the transmute crystals from dungeon dailies, and putting them into crafting does two things. It would help eliminate the disdain for DLC/ESO+ content because the folks wanting to run dungeons would be doing so for gear, for skill points, or for lore/fun.

This would also put less a strain on servers. This would also ensure those who do not use ESO+, might consider resubbing.

In fact, transmute crystals done through writ dailies makes a ton more sense because trasnmute crystals are used for crafting. Getting them out of a dungeon makes no sense at all and all it does is promote the idea for player to run as fake tanks for fast runs.

Its all linked and intertwined.

[edited for baiting]

Raideen

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

Elsonso

Raideen wrote: »

And people want the daily done quickly because they need transmute crystals and because we cant save a ton of them people have to farm them. Because people need so many of them, they have to run more dungeons, but becasue there is only so much time in a day these people want to run dungeons fast but because que times can often exceed 45 minutes for a DPS, these people queue as a tank to expedite their transmute crystal farm.

It really has nothing to do with Transmute Thingies, outside of the fact that these are a reward. The actual reward itself really does not matter, and it changes over time, anyway. If it isn't Transmute Thingies, it will be something else. Players want some sort of reward (game reward or not), or they would not be there. Rewards are intertwined with everything.

If players want it fast, that is actually the issue. Whether it is because they are trying to do something over a 30 minute lunch break, or whether they are trying to do repetitions as fast as they can to get more reward, it all amounts to same thing. Whatever it is they want, they want it fast. Fake tanks to jump queue lines, no-DLC dungeon queues, and Fungal Grotto I runs to cheese the dungeon and go straight to the reward, are just symptoms of the same thing: Actual time to complete is greater than acceptable time to complete.

In the end, the problem that ZOS is being asked about is "the time it takes to do dungeons is longer than I want to spend".

spartaxoxo

Raideen wrote: »

Its all linked and intertwined.

No. It's a separate topic. Even if transmutes were to be removed, this would not eliminate the complaint. Transmutes are an exacerbating symptom not the cause.

DLC dungeons would actually take longer without fake tanks. And nobody is complaining about fake tanks when wanting to do fungal grotto over lair of Maarselok because fake tanks are present and have always been present in RND.

As for the definition of buyer's remorse

Buyer's remorse is the sense of regret after having made a purchase. It is frequently associated with the purchase of an expensive item such as a vehicle or real estate.

Buyer's remorse is thought to stem from cognitive dissonance, specifically post-decision dissonance, that arises when a person must make a difficult decision, such as a heavily invested purchase between two similarly appealing alternatives. Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

Buyer’s remorse is a feeling of regret or anxiety after making a purchase. It usually occurs after a person makes a significant purchase, such as a home or new car, but it can occur after smaller purchases.

You are saying it's all intertwined because transmutes exacerbated the issue, and saying because it has an impact it is the cause. That's not true.

While transmutes did exacerbate this issue, the issue predates it because it is NOT the cause of the issue.

The core of the issue, the real cause, is people don't want to spend that long in dungeons. Or want to play an easier level of difficulty. That is what they find enjoyable. The DLC dungeons all exceed what these people want to do, and takes the enjoyment out of RND. They regret purchasing ESO+ because it unlocks all the dungeon dlc for them which conflicts with their personal goal of running a fun dungeon real quick, and don't feel that their should be any downsides that come with subscription.

The reason I disagree with them is in this case their own goals conflict with the purpose of the RND, and that RND actual purpose serves an important function for other paying customers.

Raideen

Elsonso wrote: »

It really has nothing to do with Transmute Thingies, outside of the fact that these are a reward. The actual reward itself really does not matter, and it changes over time, anyway. If it isn't Transmute Thingies, it will be something else. Players want some sort of reward (game reward or not), or they would not be there. Rewards are intertwined with everything.

Yes, its obvious that rewards are intertwined with everything, else no one would do the content. I previously stated that.

But the primary reason people are running their DAILY? dungeons, daily being key word, is to farm transmute crystals. Transmute crystals are the prime motivator for doing the random dungeon dailies. But this invites fake tanks because of the lengthy queues.

Remove the transmute crystals from the dungeon daily and you will see less fake tanks and speed runners. In fact, I would remove the dungeon dailies all together. Why are they there in the first place? What is the need to entice people to run these daily? Busywork?

Elsonso wrote: »

If players want it fast, that is actually the issue. Whether it is because they are trying to do something over a 30 minute lunch break, or whether they are trying to do repetitions as fast as they can to get more reward, it all amounts to same thing. Whatever it is they want, they want it fast. Fake tanks to jump queue lines, no-DLC dungeon queues, and Fungal Grotto I runs to cheese the dungeon and go straight to the reward, are just symptoms of the same thing: Actual time to complete is greater than acceptable time to complete.

In the end, the problem that ZOS is being asked about is "the time it takes to do dungeons is longer than I want to spend".

Yes players want them fast and yes that is an issue, I previously stated that. But the reason they want to run the dungeon fast is to amass the DAILY rewards.

Remove the daily rewards, and you remove most of the fake tanking and speed runners.


I would do it completely differently myself. I would have made the traditional roles more strict, less "everyone is a tank, healer and DPS" like ESO is. The day dungeons start 2 shotting DPS, is the day DPS will stop running ahead, or queuing as tanks.

Or remove the transmute crystals they are farming.

Amottica

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

Just remembered, I did come across somewhat of a fake tank in one of those other games. Yes, they were "specked" as a tank but were wearing DPS gear. Fortunately, I was a good enough healer to keep them alive since they lacked defensive. Also, in those other games the difference between a good player and a bad player. Sure they still have players that are not observant and die to avoidable mechanics and players that lack the DPS to beat the enrage timers, but the difference is not as great as in ESO which leads to more tanks willing to use the queue. That is the real problem in ESO, tanks are unwilling to queue.

Raideen

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

As a designer, I dont see it this way. I see a number of things that can be done to rectify the problem.

Olauron

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.

Amottica

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

As a designer, I dont see it this way. I see a number of things that can be done to rectify the problem.

Mention them because the ideas presented in the forums so far will not rectify anything worthwhile.

Also, I edited the post after you set the quote. The real issue is the disparity of unskilled players in the game leading to a high likelihood of getting a very bad group if one uses the queue to find a random group. This is a fact supported by a great many threads complaining about poorly skilled players in the GF. It has also led to tanks being tired of so many bad groups that no longer queue solo.

So the real fix is fixing the floor because a solution to prevent a fake tank will only lead to longer queue times because the real tanks will still refuse to risk the high chance of getting a bad group.

Amottica

Olauron wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.

How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.

Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.

I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.

Amottica

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

As a designer, I dont see it this way. I see a number of things that can be done to rectify the problem.

@Raideen

What MMORPGs have you worked on as a designer?

Olauron

Amottica wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.

How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.

Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.

I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.

Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.

Eormenric

I completely stand by your stance. Let your money speak when your words won't ratter the minds of development. Now if you excuse me, I have to go barter buying 21k crowns so a very annoying bug can get fixed... Ah, the times we live in.

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.

Buyer's remorse, which can occur when a purchase doesn't end up fitting into a buyer's personal goals (among other reasons).

Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.


EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.

 Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.

If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.

The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.

It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.

The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.

It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.

Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.

Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.

When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.

I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.

Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.

The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.

How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.

Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.

I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.

Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.

Fakes are anyone not doing their role.

Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.

I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd