I disagree completely and other MMORPG's have proven this point for at least over a decade.Mention them because the ideas presented in the forums so far will not rectify anything worthwhile.
That is not a fault of the player, that is a fault of the games design. Neither combat nor building armor sets in ESO is remotely intuitive. In fact, they are extremely complex and confusing to players, new and veteran players alike. I know people who have played this game since 2014, they have the monkey to prove it who can not figure out how to build an armor set.Also, I edited the post after you set the quote. The real issue is the disparity of unskilled players in the game leading to a high likelihood of getting a very bad group if one uses the queue to find a random group.
This is a fact supported by a great many threads complaining about poorly skilled players in the GF. It has also led to tanks being tired of so many bad groups that no longer queue solo.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
It really has nothing to do with Transmute Thingies, outside of the fact that these are a reward. The actual reward itself really does not matter, and it changes over time, anyway. If it isn't Transmute Thingies, it will be something else. Players want some sort of reward (game reward or not), or they would not be there. Rewards are intertwined with everything.
Yes, its obvious that rewards are intertwined with everything, else no one would do the content. I previously stated that.
But the primary reason people are running their DAILY? dungeons, daily being key word, is to farm transmute crystals. Transmute crystals are the prime motivator for doing the random dungeon dailies. But this invites fake tanks because of the lengthy queues.
Remove the daily rewards, and you remove most of the fake tanking and speed runners.
I would do it completely differently myself. I would have made the traditional roles more strict, less "everyone is a tank, healer and DPS" like ESO is. The day dungeons start 2 shotting DPS, is the day DPS will stop running ahead, or queuing as tanks.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
I agree that bad tanks are not fake tanks. However, the best this idea would do is to stop fake tanks from queueing as a fake tank. After all, if they really wanted to taunt and tank they would have done the little big of effort to be able to do so at the start.
Groups will merely wait longer for the queue to pop because the solution does not solve the real problem as to why real tanks refuse to run with GF group. Until that is solved nothing really changes for the good.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A fake tank doesn't need to change their activity either. They can easily keep queueing as a tank and just slot a taunt. It's what I do. Both merely require a change in build to bring them into minimum performance of the role.
Alemtuzumab wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A dps dealing <10k dps is fake/incompetent/incapable or whatever, it doesn’t matter.
Just leave and come back later. Pick some flowers during the 15min cooldown.
Problem solved.
Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
Likewise, characters are not limited by the game to always have a single active role.
Franchise408 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
I say this as a proper tank:
I will leave this game if they ever impose specific skills and gears on me in order to do content.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
Likewise, characters are not limited by the game to always have a single active role.
Sure, but I don't think we'd have a problem saying that a tank that popped barrier isn't a healer.
I think the only reason people have a problem with the same logic being applied to DPS is because there are a lot of people being intentionally deceptive when it comes to fake tanking and fake healing. To get the maximum amount of damage requires very unintuitive gameplay and a ton of practice, so there's this huge barrier to DPS getting to even mid-level competency.
So a lot of people don't feel it's fair or reasonable to lump in these DPS players who are putting in an effort with the ones who know full well that they aren't fulfilling their role, and don't care how it effects others. Those guys are dishonest, while most fake DPS are not.
But I think doing that just muddies the waters for understanding how to build for our roles, understanding things like DPS checks, and leads to a lot of frustration from people who spend a lot of time building incorrectly. It also obscures the very real problem that is happening in Vet Queue. Although that problem I think has gotten better in recent times. I think this because this discussion usually comes up when Tanks and Healers are attempting to articulate the problems they have in Vet queues and try to discuss solutions, and instead of the conversation focusing on the damage the fake dps does to vet queues and how we can fix that in a way that's fair to everyone, it usually becomes a discussion on the semantics of the word fake.
That's not happening in this thread, but it's something I have seen time and time again.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
Many, many people use the term "Fake dps" to describe such dps, especially tanks citing them as a reason why they don't queue for vet dungeons. I appreciate there is a difference in intent, but it doesn't change that all the fake roles cause issues and that fake is a perfectly adequate term to describe it. There has definitely always been people who take issue with people who call those DPS fake because they think that they aren't deceptive should be acknowledged, but not everyone shares that POV. And the most objective source on the matter, the definition of fake itself, does not mandate deception.
The DPS who queue as tanks to skip the queue are the only ones who keep trying to call out players who are just bad at their chosen role to deflect the conversation away from their horrid behavior.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
Many, many people use the term "Fake dps" to describe such dps, especially tanks citing them as a reason why they don't queue for vet dungeons. I appreciate there is a difference in intent, but it doesn't change that all the fake roles cause issues and that fake is a perfectly adequate term to describe it. There has definitely always been people who take issue with people who call those DPS fake because they think that they aren't deceptive should be acknowledged, but not everyone shares that POV. And the most objective source on the matter, the definition of fake itself, does not mandate deception.
I mean, that is objectively false. The definition of Fake is:
Not genuine; counterfeit
Counterfeit:
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud
Fake is done with the intention to deceive. Being bad is not an intention to deceive. Signing up as a tank when you don't plan on tanking at all is intent to deceive.
not true, real, or genuine : COUNTERFEIT, SHAM
to conceal the defects of or make appear more attractive, interesting, valuable, etc., usually in order to deceive:
someone who is not what or who they claim to be