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why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »What if they did
Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.
Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.
This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.
Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.
The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.
Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.
The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.
I understood your point, I am saying that is by design.
Then it solves nothing compared to current situation.
As for P2W, I am not sure that it is worse than pay to lose, especially when P2W is the essence of a number of activities in ESO (fashion, housing, to name the most prominent). So what if one (and just one) another activity embrace P2W?
It does...
It solves getting nothing from randoms, it is easier to target farm stickerbook
It is NOT pay to lose. You aren't losing because you qualified for a DLC you paid to qualify to do. What would actually be pay to lose is buying a DLC that does not work.
Random Dungeon finder is for filling groups. You filled the group. The end. I think they'd be better off removing rewards entirely than allowing people to break the functionality of the system at no cost to themselves, quite frankly.
You are already being compensated for your time. It is literally payment for doing what you don't want to do, so "I don't want to" is not a valid reason to redefine it because you want to use the system for something it is not intended to be used for. The royal you, not you in particular.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 7:34PM0 -
LeonAkando✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
I would imagine you are in the minority. Anything on normal can be solo'd with ease, on pretty much any build that slaps Pale Order on.
Actually, one of the main complaints I hear is that everything besides hm trials are just too easy, a valid complaint. I always play the new Veteran DLC dungeons when they come out with my spouse, my sister and her spouse. We run in blind and 9/10 times can kill it first attempt without knowing the mechanics.
This is even the case with some Veteran Hardmodes like the first boss in the new Red Petal Bastion which was completed first run hardmode blind run.
Largely I believe them main reason people don't want to do DLC dungeons is because they rather spend 5 minutes speed running FG1 for their 10 transmutes on their 12th character for the day, rather than spend 30 minutes going through a DLC dungeon for the same reward.
For some arcane reason, ZOS gives you the same reward for a normal dungeon, a veteran dungeon, a dlc dungeon or a base game dungeon. If there's no incentive to do anything that takes longer, people will not do it.2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »What if they did
Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.
Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.
This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.
Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.
The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.
Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.
The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.
I understood your point, I am saying that is by design.
Then it solves nothing compared to current situation.
As for P2W, I am not sure that it is worse than pay to lose, especially when P2W is the essence of a number of activities in ESO (fashion, housing, to name the most prominent). So what if one (and just one) another activity embrace P2W?
It does...
It solves getting nothing from randoms, it is easier to target farm stickerbook
It is NOT pay to lose. You aren't losing because you qualified for a DLC you paid to qualify to do. What would actually be pay to lose is buying a DLC that does not work.
Random Dungeon finder is for filling groups. You filled the group. The end. I think they'd be better off removing rewards entirely than allowing people to break the functionality of the system at no cost to themselves, quite frankly.
You are already being compensated for your time. It is literally payment for doing what you don't want to do, so "I don't want to" is not a valid reason to redefine it because you want to use the system for something it is not intended to be used for. The royal you, not you in particular.
It is pay to lose. You were getting one cookie for moving a pen from one table to another before paying, you are getting the same one cookie for moving a bookshelf from one room to another after paying (>50% chance instead of moving a pen).
Also, it is not only "I don't want to", it is also a "I can't" possibility. Are you ready to insist that it is impossible for a person to be able to do base random dungeon and unable to do DLC random dungeon due to reflexes, latency, framerate or any other reason? Yet the person is punished for paying. What is it if not pay to lose?The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.6 -
LeonAkando✭✭✭✭
- Random should be random - no pre-made groups!
Nothing says Massively Multi-player Online game like disabling the ability to play with your friends. I didn't know Amazon Studios had an ESO forum account.
Everyone, yes especially those who play with friends, should be able to get the same rewards as Pick Up Groups, the idea of punishing non-solo players is a strangely prevalent idea on the forums.
2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »What if they did
Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.
Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.
And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.
This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.
Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.
The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.
Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.
The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.
I understood your point, I am saying that is by design.
Then it solves nothing compared to current situation.
As for P2W, I am not sure that it is worse than pay to lose, especially when P2W is the essence of a number of activities in ESO (fashion, housing, to name the most prominent). So what if one (and just one) another activity embrace P2W?
It does...
It solves getting nothing from randoms, it is easier to target farm stickerbook
It is NOT pay to lose. You aren't losing because you qualified for a DLC you paid to qualify to do. What would actually be pay to lose is buying a DLC that does not work.
Random Dungeon finder is for filling groups. You filled the group. The end. I think they'd be better off removing rewards entirely than allowing people to break the functionality of the system at no cost to themselves, quite frankly.
You are already being compensated for your time. It is literally payment for doing what you don't want to do, so "I don't want to" is not a valid reason to redefine it because you want to use the system for something it is not intended to be used for. The royal you, not you in particular.
It is pay to lose. You were getting one cookie for moving a pen from one table to another before paying, you are getting the same one cookie for moving a bookshelf from one room to another after paying (>50% chance instead of moving a pen).
Also, it is not only "I don't want to", it is also a "I can't" possibility. Are you ready to insist that it is impossible for a person to be able to do base random dungeon and unable to do DLC random dungeon due to reflexes, latency, framerate or any other reason? Yet the person is punished for paying. What is it if not pay to lose?
You can get transmutes from other sources, or do like players do now and just drop queue and requeue into a non-dlc later.
Beyond that, the crystals are NOT intended functionality. Is Cyrodiil pay 2 lose because I'd like to be able to in there without PVP and get stuff? Is the newest chapter Pay to Lose because something I like might get nerfed, or because I didn't want to visit the Deadlands?
You can't just set your own goals and then claim the game is pay to lose. Not giving free access to content other people paid for is not punishing paid users.
Winning the RND is successfully helping someone else out with a dungeon they needed. If you did that, you won, and get a prize. It is NOT a transmute crystal dispenser. Both paid users and unpaid users have the same win condition: successfully help someone with a dungeon they need.
You were not getting a cookie for moving a pen. You were getting a cookie for moving a random item in my house. You just don't like that you can't move whatever you feel like moving.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 8:30PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Is Cyrodiil pay 2 lose because I'd like to be able to in there without PVP and get stuff? Is the newest chapter Pay to Lose because something I like might get nerfed, or because I didn't want to visit the Deadlands?
Wait, what? If PVP was added to Cyrodiil or Imperial City by ESO+ and those zones were PVE without ESO+, that would be undoubtedly pay to lose.
You are nerfed (or buffed) without paying for the chapter (that is a base game update), so I fail to see this example.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Is Cyrodiil pay 2 lose because I'd like to be able to in there without PVP and get stuff? Is the newest chapter Pay to Lose because something I like might get nerfed, or because I didn't want to visit the Deadlands?
Wait, what? If PVP was added to Cyrodiil or Imperial City by ESO+ and those zones were PVE without ESO+, that would be undoubtedly pay to lose.
You are nerfed (or buffed) without paying for the chapter (that is a base game update), so I fail to see this example.
You aren't nerfed or buffed.
The game sets the win condition as following: Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do.
You keep trying to redefine the win condition set out by the game itself, and that's why you don't see the comparison.
The win condition in Cyrodiil is kill other players and try to get the most points. I can go in there for PVE, but that is me setting my own goal. It is NOT what the system is for.
Something is not p2w (or lose) based off random desires of the playerbase. It is defined by the game system itself.
And in the case of RND, the win condition is the same for all players. Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need and that you qualify to do, rather than what you want to do.
People setting their own goals because they are able to do so (like transmute farm) are no different than people setting their own goals in places like Cyrodiil (do some pve).
It's nice the game enables that, but it is NOT the purpose of the system.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 8:39PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Is Cyrodiil pay 2 lose because I'd like to be able to in there without PVP and get stuff? Is the newest chapter Pay to Lose because something I like might get nerfed, or because I didn't want to visit the Deadlands?
Wait, what? If PVP was added to Cyrodiil or Imperial City by ESO+ and those zones were PVE without ESO+, that would be undoubtedly pay to lose.
You are nerfed (or buffed) without paying for the chapter (that is a base game update), so I fail to see this example.
You aren't nerfed or buffed.
The game sets the win condition as following: Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do.
You keep trying to redefine the win condition set out by the game itself, and that's why you don't see the comparison.
The win condition in Cyrodiil is kill other players and try to get the most points. I can go in there for PVE, but that is me setting my own goal. It is NOT what the system is for.
Something is not p2w (or lose) based off random desires of the playerbase. It is defined by the game system itself.
And in the case of RND, the win condition is the same for all players. Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need and that you qualify to do, rather than what you want to do.
People setting their own goals because they are able to do so (like transmute farm) are no different than people setting their own goals in places like Cyrodiil (do some pve).
It's nice the game enables that, but it is NOT the purpose of the system.
"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
Welcome to the VIP club of our swimming pool, now you are qualified as a lifesaver and you are legally and personally responsible for everyones safety here.
But I just wanted to get that extra cup of coffee!
I don't care, you are qualified now.
Pay to lose in its essence.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 8:50PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 9:00PM0 -
MakoRuu✭✭✭✭I am so incredible SICK AND TIRED of rolling an end game DLC Dungeon with new players under 1000 CP that are FAKE TANKS AND HEALERS. And don't know the mechanics of a dungeon.
Just today, I was finishing up weekly endeavors, and we landed in March of Sacrifices. The Tank was a fake NB, only had around 400 CP, Dual Wielding and using Whirling Blades for everything, no taunt. CONTINUED TO DIE TO TRASH MOBS.
We got to the first boss, which is the sisters, and the team wiped over and over again. Everyone kept saying "WE CAN DO IT, IT'S ONLY NORMAL."
I was DPS, doing 80% of the group damage (CombatMetrics.)
I finally gave up and just left, which I absolutely hate doing.
We need harsher punishments for false roles if Zos wants to keep collecting money from me.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeonAkando wrote: »For some arcane reason, ZOS gives you the same reward for a normal dungeon, a veteran dungeon, a dlc dungeon or a base game dungeon. If there's no incentive to do anything that takes longer, people will not do it.
I think that this is because the incentive is not for doing the dungeon, but for using the dungeon finder to do a random dungeon. They added this in v2.3, as part of the work to improve the grouping tool according to the patch notes.
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Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.
If a player is making his own gameplay experience worse by investing his own money, then it is pay to lose no matter what is the experience of any other player.
I can't speak for all ESO+ players obviously, but I would not notice the removing of DLC dungeons from the subscription, I haven't been in any such dungeon for a year and a half at least.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.4 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am so incredible SICK AND TIRED of rolling an end game DLC Dungeon with new players under 1000 CP that are FAKE TANKS AND HEALERS. And don't know the mechanics of a dungeon.
Just today, I was finishing up weekly endeavors, and we landed in March of Sacrifices. The Tank was a fake NB, only had around 400 CP, Dual Wielding and using Whirling Blades for everything, no taunt. CONTINUED TO DIE TO TRASH MOBS.
We got to the first boss, which is the sisters, and the team wiped over and over again. Everyone kept saying "WE CAN DO IT, IT'S ONLY NORMAL."
I was DPS, doing 80% of the group damage (CombatMetrics.)
I finally gave up and just left, which I absolutely hate doing.
We need harsher punishments for false roles if Zos wants to keep collecting money from me.
I agree, but the issues we face are embedded at the core of this games combat design.
The solution, imo, would be for ZOS to bite the bullet, admit that their unique system of combat does not work as well as other long established games do. Give tanks an AOE taunt, increase mob damage where trash can 3 shot you and change how the game is played where tanks are meant to hold all aggro. But this would mean massive rebalancing of all tank gear sets, damage, armor, spells, and down the line.2 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭Didn't read whole thread. Long, long ago, ZOS should have stripped all the cheezier mechanics out of normal dungeons and even trials. The length of some DLC dungeons directly depends on the mechanics, no one really minds Vaults of Madness despite it being longer because it's fun and well-designed, etc. That they haven't stripped that stuff out of the normal mode, which represents a mind-boggling loss of revenue IMO.
I have known many players in many guilds over the years who would have purchased all the DLCs if only they hadn't gotten soured on fake difficulty lazy design "mechanics." I know many more who do not subscribe because they hate that kind of game and will simply move on to options once they realize that's all ESO pve is past a point.
News for ZOS, there is a HUGE contingent of IMO mostly old school PC players who loathe that kind of console-learn the level rote type of sidegame riddled play, yet it remains year after year the cornerstone of their PvE progression. Crucial mistake, and I bet it's corrected sometime next year, once MSFT brings in the profitability consultants to the extent they haven't already. I expect 2022 to be a year of massive changes to ESO, most for the good, and removal of control from the hidebound repeating the same business mistakes over and over, both in all aspects of the game itself and in its monetization.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.
If a player is making his own gameplay experience worse by investing his own money, then it is pay to lose no matter what is the experience of any other player.
I can't speak for all ESO+ players obviously, but I would not notice the removing of DLC dungeons from the subscription, I haven't been in any such dungeon for a year and a half at least.
P2W and P2Lare not defined by player's own personal goals or experiences because that would be so broad as to basically make every cash purchase one of those things. Basically every additonal purchase can make a person's experience more or less enjoyable. They are defined by the win conditions the game sets out.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 9:28PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.
If a player is making his own gameplay experience worse by investing his own money, then it is pay to lose no matter what is the experience of any other player.
I can't speak for all ESO+ players obviously, but I would not notice the removing of DLC dungeons from the subscription, I haven't been in any such dungeon for a year and a half at least.
P2W and P2L are defined by player's own goals or experiences because that would be so broad as to basically make every cash purchase one of those things. Basically every additonal purchase can make a person's experience more or less enjoyable. They are defined by the win conditions the game sets out.
Well, I guess I am using it a bit broader. With pay to win the win is not only in game conditions, but also in out of game conditions (contests with monetary or other prizes, for example). And with pay to lose the lose is the whole quality (relative to that person quality, not some abstract quality) of experience with the product (what a person is losing? the fun, the enjoyment).
Imagine ESO+ giving a free mount. Is it great from the first sight? Yes. Imagine it is a bear, and riding on it gives a sea sick. Not that great anymore. Imagine you also get this bear 50% of time you are summoning a mount. That is now very far from great. That is paying for feeling uncomfortable, and the way to fix it without not paying is either to stop using mounts or to resummoning it on cooldown again and again and again. This is what I am calling the pay to lose. If you have better term for this, I would not mind to know it.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Edited by Raideen on December 1, 2021 9:46PM2 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.
If a player is making his own gameplay experience worse by investing his own money, then it is pay to lose no matter what is the experience of any other player.
I can't speak for all ESO+ players obviously, but I would not notice the removing of DLC dungeons from the subscription, I haven't been in any such dungeon for a year and a half at least.
P2W and P2Lare not defined by player's own personal goals or experiences because that would be so broad as to basically make every cash purchase one of those things. Basically every additonal purchase can make a person's experience more or less enjoyable. They are defined by the win conditions the game sets out.
It is extremely rare that an additional purchase will make a person's experience less enjoyable. At the very least, most games let you avoid, disable, or uninstall undesirable (paid) content. The ESO random dungeon finder is one of very few exceptions to that rule, and that's what people have a problem with.
Furthermore, the problem is exacerbated by the fact that when the undesirable content is acquired through ESO+ it can be disabled by terminating the subscription.5 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I can't agree with that. Buyer's remorse is when (for example) I have bought sugar for the coffee and suddenly I don't like it. When this also forces me to drink coffee only with sugar or don't drink coffee at all until all this sugar physically exists, it is not buyer's remorse, it is something that removes or negatively changes previously available other things.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 9:53PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »"Help a random stranger with a dungeon that they need, that you qualify to do rather than something specific you want to do."
If the only way to manage qualification is by not paying, otherwise the qualification is above the requested level, then it is pay to lose.
The qualification is explicitly NOT managed. That is the entire point of it for all players. You are specifically saying that you will NOT pick and choose. That is the agreement.
It is already managed by not paying, and that is a win-win situation both from the financial and entertainment points of view.
It isn't. That is only defined by a player's own tastes and personal goals, which has nothing to do with P2W or P2L.
Just as there paid players that may decide that some DLC is not to their tastes. There are also unpaid players that would like to do those DLC so they can't maybe get their Kinra's gear or Zaan helm or whatever. But because they don't own the content, they don't get to do those dungeons as part of their farming and will have to wait for however many days or nights it takes them to get access, if they are able to do so at all.
What is actually happening is ZOS is restricting access to content people don't own instead of giving it away for free when other people paid for it. I doubt ESO+ players would be okay with all those dungeons being given out for free either. As we saw with the absolute meltdown this place had when Murkmire and Fargrave were given out for free.
They just want to pay for the additional perk of choosing what they want to do in a system where they pay you for not choosing what you want to do.
If a player is making his own gameplay experience worse by investing his own money, then it is pay to lose no matter what is the experience of any other player.
I can't speak for all ESO+ players obviously, but I would not notice the removing of DLC dungeons from the subscription, I haven't been in any such dungeon for a year and a half at least.
P2W and P2Lare not defined by player's own personal goals or experiences because that would be so broad as to basically make every cash purchase one of those things. Basically every additonal purchase can make a person's experience more or less enjoyable. They are defined by the win conditions the game sets out.
It is extremely rare that an additional purchase will make a person's experience less enjoyable. At the very least, most games let you avoid, disable, or uninstall undesirable (paid) content. The ESO random dungeon finder is one of very few exceptions to that rule, and that's what people have a problem with.
Furthermore, the problem is exacerbated by the fact that when the undesirable content is acquired through ESO+ it can be disabled by terminating the subscription.
Not really. That's why we have a term for it and everything. I bought that hair bundles and tattoo packs that included all the base game ones. This has made it permanently more difficult on my account to find CS and Promotional Exclusives. My experience is notably worse. Did I pay to lose? Or has the purchase simply now conflicted with some personal goal, and that's the source of my regret? Are the hair styles packs pay to lose?
This request is to have an additonal paid option to play the game the way you want to play it over and above that which free players get. You want to pick and choose which dungons you queue into, free players won't get too.
This is asking for the paid option to gain a bonus exclusive to the paid experience.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 9:58PM0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
Edited by Raideen on December 1, 2021 10:17PM1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like when people use the word Endgame Dungeon and they then go on to say "normal".0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It advertises you will help a random stranger, and that's precisely what happens. There is no reasonable expectation that zos will pull a random stranger that meets your criteria.0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It advertises you will help a random stranger, and that's precisely what happens. There is no reasonable expectation that zos will pull a random stranger that meets your criteria.
No, it advertises that a group will work together to play the content, and there is a reasonable expectation that the group will be able to finish the content, in fun not headaches and frustration.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It advertises you will help a random stranger, and that's precisely what happens. There is no reasonable expectation that zos will pull a random stranger that meets your criteria.
No, it advertises that a group will work together to play the content, and there is a reasonable expectation that the group will be able to finish the content, in fun not headaches and frustration.
No. It doesn't. It literally lets you know that it's a random experience.
ESO does it's part to ensure you have a good experience by giving you the tools you need to deal with problem players and to ensure you can find a group.
It allows you make your own group with people you can place expectations on.
Or join a group of random strangers, who you can't reasonably expect to meet your personal criteria. They do however give you the tools to manage your own experience with these people, you can remove them from group or leave and try your hand at a new group.
It is unreasonable to expect ZOS to force everyone to play the way you want them to play. It is reasonable to expect them to give you the tools you need to find a group that can meet your goals, and they do.
They incentivize strangers to play the dungeon with you (RND daily), they give you the ability to form your own group, and they give you the tools to manage any problems that may arise. That's all that can be reasonably expected from them.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 1, 2021 10:40PM0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
But having a random party for a random experience does not preclude being able to finish the content. World of Warcraft has a gear score check before you can enter such content. That game studio working on that project realized the problem long ago and found the solution. What people are doing here, is trying to get this game studio to understand this problem exists. Hopefully ZOS realizes the game could be better and make changes to do so.spartaxoxo wrote: »
No. It doesn't. It literally lets you know that it's a random experience.
What tool does ZOS give the player/group who gets a fake tank and rushes Fungal Grotto I before the new low level player can even read the quest? Party kick? So that group can wait another 35 minutes for a tank? That is not very confidence inspiring.spartaxoxo wrote: »ESO does it's part to ensure you have a good experience by giving you the tools you need to deal with problem players and to ensure you can find a group.
You keep asserting that this is "my" personal criteria when its not. Its a reasonable expectation for anyone queuing that their party members will be able to perform their roles. Again, as I said a couple paragraphs up, other game companies have realized this is a problem and made changes to solve that issue.spartaxoxo wrote: »It allows you make your own group with people you can place expectations on.
Or join a group of random strangers, who you can't reasonably expect to meet your personal criteria.
and wait another 35 to 45 minutes in queue. By then most groups dissolve and you are back to square one. Sometimes, because of a fake tank and a dissolved group you are punished by not being able to queue again for 15 minutes.spartaxoxo wrote: »They do however give you the tools to manage your own experience with these people, you can remove them from group or leave and try your hand at a new group.
This has nothing to do with how "I" want to play, this has everything to do with set expectations that are not being met due to bad design.spartaxoxo wrote: »It is unreasonable to expect ZOS to force everyone to play the way you want them to play. It is reasonable to expect them to give you the tools you need to find a group that can meet your goals, and they do.
Players actions in game are directly tied to the design of the game. The design of the game allows for the abuse that happens right now, that ruins a lot of gameplay for many folks.spartaxoxo wrote: »They incentivize strangers to play the dungeon with you (RND daily), they give you the ability to form your own group, and they give you the tools to manage any problems that may arise. That's all that can be reasonably expected from them.
As I stated twice in this post. Other game companies realized this issue and made changes to their game to solve the problem and the fact is, fake tanks queuing for randoms is a real problem that can only be addressed by the studio through design changes.
The question is, are they interested in doing so?
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