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why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)

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  • SilverBride
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    It's not a matter of not being "willing to do the work". It's a matter of not wanting, or being able to, spend so much time in one dungeon, and wanting to enjoy the experience.

    I'm not really appreciating the difference between "I'm unwilling to do it" and "I don't want to do it," in this example. Would you mind elaborating for me please?

    It's not a matter of not being willing to do the work, i.e. fight harder bosses, as much as not wanting to have to focus on one activity for that long without a break.

    So you wouldn't mind the bosses as much if they made the dungeons shorter? That I can agree with. I'm kinda over every dungeon needing to be long. I'd like some more shorter dungeons too and I actually like a challenging boss fight.

    Basically, yes. I prefer that the bosses were closer in difficulty to the base dungeon bosses, but would accept them as they are if they made the dungeons shorter.
    Edited by SilverBride on November 30, 2021 4:46AM
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  • spartaxoxo
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    SilverBride wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    It's not a matter of not being "willing to do the work". It's a matter of not wanting, or being able to, spend so much time in one dungeon, and wanting to enjoy the experience.

    I'm not really appreciating the difference between "I'm unwilling to do it" and "I don't want to do it," in this example. Would you mind elaborating for me please?

    It's not a matter of not being willing to do the work, i.e. fight harder bosses, as much as not wanting to have to focus on one activity for that long without a break.

    So you wouldn't mind the bosses as much if they made the dungeons shorter? That I can agree with. I'm kinda over every dungeon needing to be long. I'd like some more shorter dungeons too and I actually like a challenging boss fight.

    Basically, yes. I prefer that the bosses were closer in difficulty to the base dungeon bosses, but would accept them as they are if they made the dungeons shorter.

    I think that's a fair compromise tbh
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  • Brrrofski
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    AcadianPaladin wrote: »
    It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?

    Well they're not hard on normal.

    Theyy just long. Some of them on normal still take like half an hour.

    So it's kinda dumb that I can get one of them for 30 mins or fungal grotto 1 which I can do on 5.

    People leave DLC ones all the time as well, which make them for ven longer.

    I usually stay, but some days I don't have much time to play, and just want to get some randoms done quickly.
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  • Sheezabeast
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    Ok so...today I wanted to knock out my 6 dungeons for the weekly endeavor. I had 2 done, needed 4 more. It random normal'd me Falkreath Hold, Unhallowed Grave, Dread Cellar, and Cauldron. 4 DLC dungeons in a row on normal. I wanted to scream. I just wanted to bang these out quickly for the endeavor. I think the endeavor adds stress to the already quick paced people who want to get in get out for their transmute crystal. I had multiple fake tanks, including a tank that quit mid fight and made us queue for a tank on the last boss of Cauldron. In Dread Cellar, our tank dropped immediately after loading into the dungeon and we solo'd the first boss to like 20% before the queue gave us a new tank. It was a rough day of dungeoning for this tired old healer :(
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
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  • Parasaurolophus
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    These threads always make me very upset. I do not want to talk "git gud" or "l2p" to anyone, no one is required to be able to play well. But I absolutely sincerely do not understand what difficulties can arise for players on a normal level of difficulty? These threads just look like "I don't want to play, but I want to get rewards." Why do you need crystals and experience if you don't want to play more difficult content than the grotto? Any dungeon, no matter vanilla or dlc, can be soloed and you don't need to be an elite player for that. DLC high-end content and combat system are the best in this game and the only thing left to do after you complete all the quests of the next chapter.
    I just have a feeling that eso seems like a completely wrong game. It was supposed to be a sandbox with an advanced and complex system of crafting and housebuilding. Like ArcheAge or Fallot76. Instead, we have a classic mmo, which claims not to be a classic mmo, but is a classic mmo based on conquering content that most of the players hate it. Although for the majority, this is controversial. Yes, sometimes players leave the dlc dungeons. But this happens very rarely. Since I'm a rusher, all dungeons are quick and easy to complete.
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  • Larcomar
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    Yep. My one puzzlement is why you still pay to be penalised. I ditched ESO+ when the undaunted festival came up last year and haven't looked back since.

    I know a lot of people say "craft bag" but if (as I do) you enjoy runnign RNDs, the inconvenience of getting dlcs way outweighs the minor convenience of the craft bag.

    Honestly, 95% of the stuff that goes into it is useless crap you'll never use. Download something like bandits loot manager and dustman, take 5 mins to set them up, you really don't need the craft bag.

    Cut the cord :)


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  • Larcomar
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    PS There's a lot of people saying here that the RND queue exists to fill groups, not give people transmutes ya di ya di ya... This comes up everytime this issue is raised.

    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.


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  • Larcomar
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    Parasaurolophus wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    PS There's a lot of people saying here that the RND queue exists to fill groups, not give people transmutes ya di ya di ya... This comes up everytime this issue is raised.

    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.


    Я оплачиваю подписку и мне нравятся dlc подземелья. Stop thinking that casual players are paying. Everyone who likes the game pays.

    I'm happy for you. But a lot of people don't. And what you have to remeber is that the people who do sub and don't like dlcs will get a disproportionately high number of DLCs in their queue, because dungeon finder will allocate people like me, who don't sub because of this, to the base game dungeons, leaving them with a great big stinking pile of DLC's to run....
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  • Parasaurolophus
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    Larcomar wrote: »
    Parasaurolophus wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    PS There's a lot of people saying here that the RND queue exists to fill groups, not give people transmutes ya di ya di ya... This comes up everytime this issue is raised.

    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.


    Я оплачиваю подписку и мне нравятся dlc подземелья. Stop thinking that casual players are paying. Everyone who likes the game pays.

    I'm happy for you. But a lot of people don't. And what you have to remeber is that the people who do sub and don't like dlcs will get a disproportionately high number of DLCs in their queue, because dungeon finder will allocate people like me, who don't sub because of this, to the base game dungeons, leaving them with a great big stinking pile of DLC's to run....

    Why do you need crystals and experience then if you are not going to complete more difficult content? What about farming new motifs or completing a collection?
    Edited by Parasaurolophus on November 30, 2021 1:39PM
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  • Elsonso
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    SilverBride wrote: »
    Franchise408 wrote: »
    If there is a non-DLC queue, then it should have no rewards attached to it.

    Why?

    Since this probably needs to be said again...

    The point of the reward was to get people to queue for the two main dungeon queues so that the queue times are reduced. This keeps players coming back to this queue even though they may get a dungeon that is less desirable. Now, it is also a good source for transmute thingies, but that is a different issue. (Transmute thingies should not be exclusively dungeon rewards)

    The idea of a non-DLC random queue is just the select-a-dungeon queue with the base game dungeons pre-selected. They don't currently reward for this with the special mail package and XP boost.

    What is really being asked for here is to queue only for base game dungeons _and_ still get a special reward for queuing for dungeons. The latter is the core of the request in this thread, as I see it.

    I am in the camp that if you want to choose your dungeon, in this case base game only, then they should not add a special reward for doing that. It pulls people away from the main dungeon queues and the player is also getting what they want in dungeons.





    The Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road

    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso Uninstalled
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
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  • jaws343
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    Parasaurolophus wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    Parasaurolophus wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    PS There's a lot of people saying here that the RND queue exists to fill groups, not give people transmutes ya di ya di ya... This comes up everytime this issue is raised.

    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.


    Я оплачиваю подписку и мне нравятся dlc подземелья. Stop thinking that casual players are paying. Everyone who likes the game pays.

    I'm happy for you. But a lot of people don't. And what you have to remeber is that the people who do sub and don't like dlcs will get a disproportionately high number of DLCs in their queue, because dungeon finder will allocate people like me, who don't sub because of this, to the base game dungeons, leaving them with a great big stinking pile of DLC's to run....

    Why do you need crystals and experience then if you are not going to complete more difficult content? What about farming new motifs or completing a collection?

    It's almost like the random queue is not the best spot to complete harder content and maybe people need those resources so that they can form their own groups to specifically attempt the more challenging content with 3 other players who actually want to be in the dungeon and aren't just randomly pulled from people who want nothing to do with them or aren't even capable of handling them.
    Edited by jaws343 on November 30, 2021 2:06PM
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  • spartaxoxo
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    Larcomar wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.

    They don't. They don't have to do RND, nothing comes from them that can't be obtained elsewhere. And as I said before what they are actually doing is ensuring functionality of those dungeons for paying customers. The people who want to do those dungeons are paying customers as well. And the dungeon finder ensures they actually get to play the content that they paid real money to do.

    That is it's purpose. To ensure those customers get groups by paying you a reward to run with them. Everyone is already being compensated for doing dungeons they don't want to do, so it's not an issue that they don't want to do them. It is quite literally the point of what they signed up for.

    Will they do them anyway for a reward?

    If they just want to play a specific dungeon or group of dungeons, they can already do that. They just won't get the rewards for helping people if they don't want to help.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on November 30, 2021 2:11PM
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  • Larcomar
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    Parasaurolophus wrote: »
    Why do you need crystals and experience then if you are not going to complete more difficult content? What about farming new motifs or completing a collection?

    Like I alot of people, pvp is my endgame, not pve. But no, I don't need crystals or experience at this point. Like I
    said in my original post, I run RNDs because I enjoy them. They're fun. Or at least I find the base games one's are. Too many of the dlc's have silly puzzles in them that I just don't enjoy and go on for way too long. I do them occasionally when there's an eso+ trial on to farm new sets but honestly, I'm kind of relieved when that's over. There's only so much pushing boxes around, or getting turned into a clockwork skeever I can take....

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  • AlnilamE
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    SilverBride wrote: »
    AlnilamE wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    Franchise408 wrote: »
    If there is a non-DLC queue, then it should have no rewards attached to it.

    Why?

    I wouldn't say "no rewards", but it should default to the blue rewards instead of the purple, since the people excluding DLCs are admittedly not willing to do the work.

    It's not a matter of not being "willing to do the work". It's a matter of not wanting, or being able to, spend so much time in one dungeon, and wanting to enjoy the experience.

    How much time is "so much time"? I ran 6 dungeons yesterday (all random PUGs) and decided to time them. 3 of them were DLCs and the longest one took 19 minutes and 56 seconds from load screen to "activity complete". This does not seem like an unreasonable amount of time to me, but I will continue with the experiment until I have a better sample size.
    The Moot Councillor
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  • the1andonlyskwex
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    I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I don't particularly care about farming transmute crystals or anything like that. I like the simplicity of logging on and joining the random queue for a quick (usually vet) dungeon run. Unfortunately, it pretty much stops being fun whenever I'm subscribed to ESO+ (for the craft bag and extra bank space).

    DLC dungeons (especially on vet difficulty) just aren't fun in PuGs. Even when they go smoothly they usually take 2-4x as long as non-DLC dungeons (which is often more time than I actually have), and more often than not they don't go smoothly. The most common occurrence is probably the tank dropping before the first boss (which can lead to a 20 min wait for a new one), but it's also pretty common to have DPS that's way too low (I usually heal), or for nobody to know the mechanics (including me, because I'd rather spend my time doing things other than read tutorials). They pretty much turn into a slog that I have to drop out of anyway because I have other (non-ESO) things I need to do.

    The net result is that I barely even queue for dungeons when I'm subscribed, which is too bad, because I genuinely enjoy the base game ones.

    I suppose I could queue for a long list of specific dungeons, but maintaining that list takes a lot of the simplicity out of things, and queueing for a shorter list usually results in long wait times.
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  • AlnilamE
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    newtinmpls wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I don't think they mean anything about morally superior. I also think "doesn't have enough time" is a separate point from the other one. Which is a fair point as those dungeons are pretty lengthy and dungeon finder is used for farming.

    I do use the random daily as a form of farming for transmutes....I'm curious if there is another type of "farming" that could be meant here.

    Sticker book for me. I figure it's a good way to fill in the sticker book without getting bored of a specific dungeon.

    I really don't care about the transmutes from the random normals because I get enough for what I need in PvP, which I do very casually.
    The Moot Councillor
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  • the1andonlyskwex
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    AlnilamE wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    AlnilamE wrote: »
    SilverBride wrote: »
    Franchise408 wrote: »
    If there is a non-DLC queue, then it should have no rewards attached to it.

    Why?

    I wouldn't say "no rewards", but it should default to the blue rewards instead of the purple, since the people excluding DLCs are admittedly not willing to do the work.

    It's not a matter of not being "willing to do the work". It's a matter of not wanting, or being able to, spend so much time in one dungeon, and wanting to enjoy the experience.

    How much time is "so much time"? I ran 6 dungeons yesterday (all random PUGs) and decided to time them. 3 of them were DLCs and the longest one took 19 minutes and 56 seconds from load screen to "activity complete". This does not seem like an unreasonable amount of time to me, but I will continue with the experiment until I have a better sample size.

    I haven't done a lot of random normals with DLC lately, but my experience with random vet is that most base game dungeons take 10-20min while most DLC dungeons take 30-90min (if they even finish).
    Edited by the1andonlyskwex on November 30, 2021 2:40PM
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  • Lixiviant
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    Tried not subbing and couldn't live without all of the bennies. Guess I'll be an ESO+ member until support for the PS4 community is dropped.
    PS4/PS5/NA - And now EU

    Daedroth might bite, just letting you know
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  • etchedpixels
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    Larcomar wrote: »
    eso+ trial on to farm new sets but honestly, I'm kind of relieved when that's over. There's only so much pushing boxes around, or getting turned into a clockwork skeever I can take....

    If you wear a disguise you end up a miniature version of yourself instead. Even funnier is that in some cases you can end up running around with a companion.


    Too many toons not enough time
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  • fizl101
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    etchedpixels wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    eso+ trial on to farm new sets but honestly, I'm kind of relieved when that's over. There's only so much pushing boxes around, or getting turned into a clockwork skeever I can take....

    If you wear a disguise you end up a miniature version of yourself instead. Even funnier is that in some cases you can end up running around with a companion.


    Oh I want to try that now!!
    Soupy twist
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  • Elsonso
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    the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
    I suppose I could queue for a long list of specific dungeons, but maintaining that list takes a lot of the simplicity out of things, and queueing for a shorter list usually results in long wait times.

    Even with the increased complexity, that sounds like what you want. It sounds like you would just prefer it if ZOS pre-filled, and maybe remembered, when you go to select the dungeons.

    If you are on PC, there is an outdated (Nov 2020) addon called Favorite Dungeon Rotation that looks like it remembers. I do not use it, so I am only recommending by name, not reputation.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road

    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso Uninstalled
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
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  • etchedpixels
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    The problem with transmute farming is simple economics. People don't all have the free time to waste on slow stuff so if the dungeon takes more than about 15 minutes and it's a group or the tank doesn't like it then it's in the interest of the (usually fake) tank to just quit, spend 10 minutes doing one of the pledges then re-queue. For others its things like "oh we got a long DLC, sorry guys I've only got a 30 minute luncbreak"

    It's not possible to queue for a solo or smaller group random, so unlike gear runs where you can choose to just solo speedrun Arx and not have to worry about upsetting someone. There is no incentive to queue for vet or harder content options either which would push speedrunning high dps or high skill players out of the normal queue.

    There are a bunch of other things that go on too
    - You keep a low level toon for farming and just ignore the level up prompt.
    - You keep a low level toon for farming and throw it away each tine it levels too much
    - You queue with a low level in the four, the low level logs out and logs in a high level if it's a longer dungeon or skips if it's trivial, and the group cycles round

    It's like the nonsense with Direfrost. The number of "soloing direfrost, someone just group with me for 60 seconds to stand on the plates" back and forth in guild chat makes a mockery of any of the "supposed to be a group" stuff (as does Zenimax talking about playing the way you want to ;-) )

    If the players are going to that much trouble to work around a broken by design mechanic it ought to tell you something.
    Too many toons not enough time
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  • Larcomar
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.

    They don't. They don't have to do RND, nothing comes from them that can't be obtained elsewhere. And as I said before what they are actually doing is ensuring functionality of those dungeons for paying customers. The people who want to do those dungeons are paying customers as well. And the dungeon finder ensures they actually get to play the content that they paid real money to do.

    That is it's purpose. To ensure those customers get groups by paying you a reward to run with them. Everyone is already being compensated for doing dungeons they don't want to do, so it's not an issue that they don't want to do them. It is quite literally the point of what they signed up for.

    Will they do them anyway for a reward?

    If they just want to play a specific dungeon or group of dungeons, they can already do that. They just won't get the rewards for helping people if they don't want to help.

    I get all that. And it's absolutely fine. Happy that people can get groups for DLC dungeons....

    The point I'm making is a rather more basic one - a bunch of paying customers are getting made, as you put it, to do "dungeons they don't want to do." While people who freeride, and don't pay, arn't.

    Sure, the people on ESO+ don't have to queue for RNDs - they could avoid DLCs by just queuing for specific dungeons. But then they'll lose out on ten transmutes and 100k xp. You might not care about that, some of them seem to.

    My issue is simply that, *if* you do care about getting transmutes and XP out of dungeon runs, why on earth would you subscribe to ESO+? It's just back to front.

    Most times someone offers me a sub for say, £8.99 a month, it gives me more choice, more options, better service... This is the only game I've played where I cancelled my sub because my sub made my life more difficult...

    But look, it's Zos' profit margin.... And maybe, like you say, the calculation they've made is that the customers who want to run DLC's are more important than the customers who don't. Me, I'll happily trog along, pay nothing and rack up transmutes and xp in fungal grotto....

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  • spartaxoxo
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    Larcomar wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.

    They don't. They don't have to do RND, nothing comes from them that can't be obtained elsewhere. And as I said before what they are actually doing is ensuring functionality of those dungeons for paying customers. The people who want to do those dungeons are paying customers as well. And the dungeon finder ensures they actually get to play the content that they paid real money to do.

    That is it's purpose. To ensure those customers get groups by paying you a reward to run with them. Everyone is already being compensated for doing dungeons they don't want to do, so it's not an issue that they don't want to do them. It is quite literally the point of what they signed up for.

    Will they do them anyway for a reward?

    If they just want to play a specific dungeon or group of dungeons, they can already do that. They just won't get the rewards for helping people if they don't want to help.

    I get all that. And it's absolutely fine. Happy that people can get groups for DLC dungeons....

    The point I'm making is a rather more basic one - a bunch of paying customers are getting made, as you put it, to do "dungeons they don't want to do." While people who freeride, and don't pay, arn't.

    Sure, the people on ESO+ don't have to queue for RNDs - they could avoid DLCs by just queuing for specific dungeons. But then they'll lose out on ten transmutes and 100k xp. You might not care about that, some of them seem to.

    My issue is simply that, *if* you do care about getting transmutes and XP out of dungeon runs, why on earth would you subscribe to ESO+? It's just back to front.

    Most times someone offers me a sub for say, £8.99 a month, it gives me more choice, more options, better service... This is the only game I've played where I cancelled my sub because my sub made my life more difficult...

    But look, it's Zos' profit margin.... And maybe, like you say, the calculation they've made is that the customers who want to run DLC's are more important than the customers who don't. Me, I'll happily trog along, pay nothing and rack up transmutes and xp in fungal grotto....

    Plenty of people are paying for these dungeons so they can DO these dungeons. And selling people a functional product should obviously take priority over all else. Why should anyone pay money for something they can't actually use? Buying a product you don't actually want and then complaining that you're being punished because that product works as intended shouldn't be validated over the product being fully functional for those that did buy the product with the intent of using it.

    The real issue is people's perspectives on this being wrong. They view RND as a transmute farming system, which it is not. It is a system that is for you to help people with all the dungeons you're available to run. What would actually be free riding is giving access to the dungeon dlc to everyone for free, which is the real reason that unpaid members don't do get put in.

    They put people into the content that they have paid to access, that's what they are doing. The problem is that some people pay for access they don't actually want.

    There is no punishment of paid members involved, it's an unfortunate side effect only for those who don't view RND for what it is and pay for dungeons they don't actually want to run.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on November 30, 2021 3:53PM
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  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    etchedpixels wrote: »
    The problem with transmute farming is simple economics. People don't all have the free time to waste on slow stuff so if the dungeon takes more than about 15 minutes and it's a group or the tank doesn't like it then it's in the interest of the (usually fake) tank to just quit, spend 10 minutes doing one of the pledges then re-queue. For others its things like "oh we got a long DLC, sorry guys I've only got a 30 minute luncbreak"

    This is why Transmute Thingies should not be tied exclusively to dungeon content. I don't want them in the Crown Store, either, but there needs to be a reliable and repeatable way to get a daily fix of Thingies without doing a dungeon run.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road

    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso Uninstalled
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
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  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.

    They don't. They don't have to do RND, nothing comes from them that can't be obtained elsewhere. And as I said before what they are actually doing is ensuring functionality of those dungeons for paying customers. The people who want to do those dungeons are paying customers as well. And the dungeon finder ensures they actually get to play the content that they paid real money to do.

    That is it's purpose. To ensure those customers get groups by paying you a reward to run with them. Everyone is already being compensated for doing dungeons they don't want to do, so it's not an issue that they don't want to do them. It is quite literally the point of what they signed up for.

    Will they do them anyway for a reward?

    If they just want to play a specific dungeon or group of dungeons, they can already do that. They just won't get the rewards for helping people if they don't want to help.

    I get all that. And it's absolutely fine. Happy that people can get groups for DLC dungeons....

    The point I'm making is a rather more basic one - a bunch of paying customers are getting made, as you put it, to do "dungeons they don't want to do." While people who freeride, and don't pay, arn't.

    Sure, the people on ESO+ don't have to queue for RNDs - they could avoid DLCs by just queuing for specific dungeons. But then they'll lose out on ten transmutes and 100k xp. You might not care about that, some of them seem to.

    My issue is simply that, *if* you do care about getting transmutes and XP out of dungeon runs, why on earth would you subscribe to ESO+? It's just back to front.

    Most times someone offers me a sub for say, £8.99 a month, it gives me more choice, more options, better service... This is the only game I've played where I cancelled my sub because my sub made my life more difficult...

    But look, it's Zos' profit margin.... And maybe, like you say, the calculation they've made is that the customers who want to run DLC's are more important than the customers who don't. Me, I'll happily trog along, pay nothing and rack up transmutes and xp in fungal grotto....

    First of all, this is a buy to play game. There are no free riders.

    Plenty of people are paying for these dungeons so they can DO these dungeons. And selling people a functional product should obviously take priority over all else. Why should anyone pay money for something they can't actually use? Buying a product you don't actually want and then complaining that you're being punished because that product works as intended shouldn't be validated over the product being fully functional for those that did buy the product with the intent of using it.

    The real issue is people's perspectives on this being wrong. They view RND as a transmute farming system, which it is not. It is a system that is for you to help people with all the dungeons you're available to run. What would actually be free riding is giving access to the dungeon dlc to everyone for free, which is the real reason that unpaid members don't do those. They put people into the content that they have paid to access, that's what they are doing. The problem is that some people pay for access they don't actually want.


    There is no punishment of paid members involved, it's an unfortunate side effect only for those who don't view RND for what it is and pay for dungeons they don't actually want to run.

    Do you ever turn the radio off in your car? Imagine if you bought the car but could never turn the radio off, because you paid for the radio as part of the car.

    Now imagine that randomly the radio is full volume, and the only way to stop it is to turn off the car.

    That is this.

    Just because something is part of the product you purchased doesn't mean you should be disadvantaged for having it. And being forced to include it in the random dungeon queue is a disadvantage that players who do not pay extra for the game do not have to experience.
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  • fizl101
    fizl101
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    etchedpixels wrote: »
    The problem with transmute farming is simple economics. People don't all have the free time to waste on slow stuff so if the dungeon takes more than about 15 minutes and it's a group or the tank doesn't like it then it's in the interest of the (usually fake) tank to just quit, spend 10 minutes doing one of the pledges then re-queue. For others its things like "oh we got a long DLC, sorry guys I've only got a 30 minute luncbreak"

    This is why Transmute Thingies should not be tied exclusively to dungeon content. I don't want them in the Crown Store, either, but there needs to be a reliable and repeatable way to get a daily fix of Thingies without doing a dungeon run.

    PVP is the way I get most of mine, 50 for each character at the end of the campaign if they hit level 1, and the rewards of the worthy
    Soupy twist
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  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    etchedpixels wrote: »
    The problem with transmute farming is simple economics. People don't all have the free time to waste on slow stuff so if the dungeon takes more than about 15 minutes and it's a group or the tank doesn't like it then it's in the interest of the (usually fake) tank to just quit, spend 10 minutes doing one of the pledges then re-queue. For others its things like "oh we got a long DLC, sorry guys I've only got a 30 minute luncbreak"

    This is why Transmute Thingies should not be tied exclusively to dungeon content. I don't want them in the Crown Store, either, but there needs to be a reliable and repeatable way to get a daily fix of Thingies without doing a dungeon run.

    Guaranteed drops

    Alliance War 30 Day Campaign Rewards (Tier 1) x50
    Alliance War 30 Day Campaign Top 10% Leaderboard x50
    Alliance War 7 Day Campaign Rewards (Tier 1) x10
    Alliance War 7 Day Campaign Top 10% Leaderboard x10
    Arena Leaderboard x5
    Trial Leaderboard x5
    Battlegrounds Leaderboard x5
    Random Daily Activity Finder x10
    Rewards for the Worthy x4-x25
    Trial Weekly Quests x5
    Undaunted Pledges Normal x1
    Undaunted Pledges Veteran x3
    Undaunted Pledges Veteran Hardmode x5
    Veteran Dragonstar Arena x5
    Veteran Maelstrom Arena x4
    Veteran Blackrose Prison x5
    Veteran Vateshran Hollows x5

    Potential Drops

    Final Dungeon Boss
    Random Daily Activity Finder (after first activity)
    Rewards for the Worthy (after first reward)
    Half-Digested Adventurer's Pack
    Edited by spartaxoxo on November 30, 2021 3:59PM
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  • etchedpixels
    etchedpixels
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    That's fine but there is no equivalent to the 180 you can get in a couple of hours dungeon burning every day whenever you want. It's out of balance.
    Too many toons not enough time
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  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Larcomar wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. Which is pretty simple. Paying customers get forced into stuff they don't want to do, whereas people that don't pay get nice easy RNDs. That's a pretty crazy sales pitch, even for a company like zos.

    They don't. They don't have to do RND, nothing comes from them that can't be obtained elsewhere. And as I said before what they are actually doing is ensuring functionality of those dungeons for paying customers. The people who want to do those dungeons are paying customers as well. And the dungeon finder ensures they actually get to play the content that they paid real money to do.

    That is it's purpose. To ensure those customers get groups by paying you a reward to run with them. Everyone is already being compensated for doing dungeons they don't want to do, so it's not an issue that they don't want to do them. It is quite literally the point of what they signed up for.

    Will they do them anyway for a reward?

    If they just want to play a specific dungeon or group of dungeons, they can already do that. They just won't get the rewards for helping people if they don't want to help.

    I get all that. And it's absolutely fine. Happy that people can get groups for DLC dungeons....

    The point I'm making is a rather more basic one - a bunch of paying customers are getting made, as you put it, to do "dungeons they don't want to do." While people who freeride, and don't pay, arn't.

    Sure, the people on ESO+ don't have to queue for RNDs - they could avoid DLCs by just queuing for specific dungeons. But then they'll lose out on ten transmutes and 100k xp. You might not care about that, some of them seem to.

    My issue is simply that, *if* you do care about getting transmutes and XP out of dungeon runs, why on earth would you subscribe to ESO+? It's just back to front.

    Most times someone offers me a sub for say, £8.99 a month, it gives me more choice, more options, better service... This is the only game I've played where I cancelled my sub because my sub made my life more difficult...

    But look, it's Zos' profit margin.... And maybe, like you say, the calculation they've made is that the customers who want to run DLC's are more important than the customers who don't. Me, I'll happily trog along, pay nothing and rack up transmutes and xp in fungal grotto....

    First of all, this is a buy to play game. There are no free riders.

    Plenty of people are paying for these dungeons so they can DO these dungeons. And selling people a functional product should obviously take priority over all else. Why should anyone pay money for something they can't actually use? Buying a product you don't actually want and then complaining that you're being punished because that product works as intended shouldn't be validated over the product being fully functional for those that did buy the product with the intent of using it.

    The real issue is people's perspectives on this being wrong. They view RND as a transmute farming system, which it is not. It is a system that is for you to help people with all the dungeons you're available to run. What would actually be free riding is giving access to the dungeon dlc to everyone for free, which is the real reason that unpaid members don't do those. They put people into the content that they have paid to access, that's what they are doing. The problem is that some people pay for access they don't actually want.


    There is no punishment of paid members involved, it's an unfortunate side effect only for those who don't view RND for what it is and pay for dungeons they don't actually want to run.

    Do you ever turn the radio off in your car? Imagine if you bought the car but could never turn the radio off, because you paid for the radio as part of the car.

    Now imagine that randomly the radio is full volume, and the only way to stop it is to turn off the car.

    That is this.

    Just because something is part of the product you purchased doesn't mean you should be disadvantaged for having it. And being forced to include it in the random dungeon queue is a disadvantage that players who do not pay extra for the game do not have to experience.

    No. It isn't that. Because you can still queue those dungeons at any time, even as a randomized assortment.

    This is like purposefully tuning it to the 80s station because you love the DJ and getting mad that they play the song "Take on Me," a lot. So you hear it a lot of the times you turn on that station.

    You can always choose to not listen to that 80s station, make your own 80s pop mix, or just not listen to the radio station. And there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with your car or your radio. You just don't want to do that because you're really invested in hearing this DJ. You love her jokes or whatever.

    Well that DJ loves "Take on Me" and it's also one of the biggest songs of the decade. So you can listen to it or not, the choice is yours. But the DJ needs to play "Take on Me," you want to listen to that DJ sometimes you'll just have to listen to that song or turn the station to something else for a few minutes.

    You are not disadvantaged for having it. You paid for it to be included in your available dungeons and that's what you're getting.

    The random rewards are for helping with dungeons you're available to do. You can still get them by dropping out of dlc dungeons, queueing with a lower level character, or just sucking it up and doing the dungeon. Either way you still get your crystals. And if you want to queue for just the base game dungeons, you can do that too. But since the reward is for helping someone with a dungeon they need rather than one you want, you don't get the reward for helping.

    Both unpaid and paid members are placed in a queue for all the dungeons they are available to do, without any choices.

    What you want is to be able to pay to pick which dungeon you want you do, at the expense of other paying customers getting a working product.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on November 30, 2021 4:13PM
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