spartaxoxo wrote: »The DPS who queue as tanks to skip the queue are the only ones who keep trying to call out players who are just bad at their chosen role to deflect the conversation away from their horrid behavior.
That is absolutely untrue, and this disparaging of others just to obscure that the DPS isn't building for the role they selected is another reason that I don't support a definition that is inherently unequal in it's treatment of people who are not built to play the role they selected.
It's really simple
Fake = someone who is not built to perform the role they have chosen
Bad - someone who is built for the role they have chosen, they are just bad at it.
But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.
spartaxoxo wrote: »But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.
Yes. Their absolutely is a difference between someone who does it intentionally and someone else who does it by mistake. You'll get no argument from me there.
But fake dps also cause issues with the game, particularly in vet content. The developers have actually been going through a lot of trouble to lower the floor of this game so that it's more accessible to people, because of the very real and tangible problems that are caused in vet content from people very ill-prepared for it, mostly the DPS.
People who are using a term don't all share the same opinion, thought process, or any other characteristic. What determines what their intent behind using the term is how they use the term.
A real tank explaining that he has had tremendous issues being able to complete vet dungeons and making a suggestion that would say put a dps threshold on vet content isn't trying to deflect criticism from their own bad behavior. They are attempting to discuss a real problem that they are having that is directly the result of people not building to fulfill their role, which is not different in intent than the people who discuss fake tanks and fake healers. And claiming that anyone who uses the term must be deflecting criticism is itself a deflection of criticism away from people who choose to enter vet content they are not built to do, IMO.
spartaxoxo wrote: »But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.
Yes. Their absolutely is a difference between someone who does it intentionally and someone else who does it by mistake. You'll get no argument from me there.
But fake dps also cause issues with the game, particularly in vet content. The developers have actually been going through a lot of trouble to lower the floor of this game so that it's more accessible to people, because of the very real and tangible problems that are caused in vet content from people very ill-prepared for it, mostly the DPS.
People who are using a term don't all share the same opinion, thought process, or any other characteristic. What determines what their intent behind using the term is how they use the term.
A real tank explaining that he has had tremendous issues being able to complete vet dungeons and making a suggestion that would say put a dps threshold on vet content isn't trying to deflect criticism from their own bad behavior. They are attempting to discuss a real problem that they are having that is directly the result of people not building to fulfill their role, which is not different in intent than the people who discuss fake tanks and fake healers. And claiming that anyone who uses the term must be deflecting criticism is itself a deflection of criticism away from people who choose to enter vet content they are not built to do, IMO.
You are right, Bad DPS and even Bad tanks and Bad healers are not good for smooth runs of dungeons.
But Fake tanks are far worse, because they aren't even making an effort to perform the role they chose, and in fact, are doing the exact opposite of trying to do the role they chose.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Beyond that I have never seen the term "fake dps" be interpreted as someone who like slots a taunt and starts aggroing mobs, because that basically never happens. I always get "stop calling bad dps fakes" or "yeah, those fake dps with their garbage dps are bad for the game," which tells me that both groups are interpreting the phrase as someone with extremely bad dps, and they aren't interpreting the phrase the same way they interpret fake tank.
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spartaxoxo wrote: »Fake = someone who is not built to perform the role they have chosen
Bad - someone who is built for the role they have chosen, they are just bad at it.
I disagree completely and other MMORPG's have proven this point for at least over a decade.Mention them because the ideas presented in the forums so far will not rectify anything worthwhile.That is not a fault of the player, that is a fault of the games design. Neither combat nor building armor sets in ESO is remotely intuitive. In fact, they are extremely complex and confusing to players, new and veteran players alike. I know people who have played this game since 2014, they have the monkey to prove it who can not figure out how to build an armor set.Also, I edited the post after you set the quote. The real issue is the disparity of unskilled players in the game leading to a high likelihood of getting a very bad group if one uses the queue to find a random group.
Light attack weaving is not only NOT intuitive, its uncomfortable for many folks and many folks don't do it.
As long as folks blame it on the players and not the core of the design. This will be an issue.This is a fact supported by a great many threads complaining about poorly skilled players in the GF. It has also led to tanks being tired of so many bad groups that no longer queue solo.
I would argue that this has less to do with "poorly skilled" players, and a system that is not even remotely intuitive. As evidence of the huge plethora of videos on you tube showing people how to build and rotate. Except, that not everyone watches you tube.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Beyond that I have never seen the term "fake dps" be interpreted as someone who like slots a taunt and starts aggroing mobs, because that basically never happens. I always get "stop calling bad dps fakes" or "yeah, those fake dps with their garbage dps are bad for the game," which tells me that both groups are interpreting the phrase as someone with extremely bad dps, and they aren't interpreting the phrase the same way they interpret fake tank.
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As for fake dps, it is wrong that there is no such thing. There is. Whether they are common in dungeons or not is another question. It mostly depends on the reasons to be fake (if it is not profitable to be fake dps and profitable to be fake tank, you will see more fake tanks than fake dps).
I am less concerned about builds than I am about intentions and attempt.
This is wrong.spartaxoxo wrote: »If you don't meet the minimum requirements to be considered fulfilling the role, then you're not real role. And if you're not real, then you're fake.
And this is wrong too.spartaxoxo wrote: »A bad player does meet the minimum requirements of fulfilling the role, they are just bad at it.
This has nothing to do with build. The primary (focus) activity is the only thing that matters.spartaxoxo wrote: »DPS focus their builds on doing damage. If you don't, you're not a real dps.
Tanks focus their builds on survivability and controlling enemy units, if you don't, you're not a real tank.
Healers focus their builds on healing and enhancing the fighting capabilities of allies, if you don't, you're not a real healer.
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spartaxoxo wrote: »Because a lot of people doing vet dungeons need that inbetween step to learn how to play the game. Overland doesn't do a great job of teaching people how to do vet dlc dungeons. But going from Overland > normal dlc dungeons > vet dlc dungeons is a pretty decent learning curve. Also some people just find vet too hard but normal too easy, and want that inbetween content. And this content is right up their alley.
This is wrong
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maximusrex45 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Because a lot of people doing vet dungeons need that inbetween step to learn how to play the game. Overland doesn't do a great job of teaching people how to do vet dlc dungeons. But going from Overland > normal dlc dungeons > vet dlc dungeons is a pretty decent learning curve. Also some people just find vet too hard but normal too easy, and want that inbetween content. And this content is right up their alley.
But it doesn't work this way at all, because they are grouped into two groups despite massively different levels of difficulty. I say this as someone who was working with a group of friends on working our way up while trying to get rewards to optimize our gear. Randoms should be 3-4 tiers with increasing rewards based on the difficulty and time required to do the tier. Taking a random as a new player and trouncing some then getting annihilated in the next isn't a fun or worthwhile experience, and all it teaches is the system doesn't give two craps about teaching you how to be better.
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spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
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In this game your character's capacity to deal massive damage comes from your build. And how much damage you personally are able to make it generate comes from what is happening in that moment and your individual level of skill.
A character that is not building to be capable of massive damage is not a dps.
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Build has nothing to do with it at all. A new player going into a dungeon doesn't know about builds. A new player doesn't even know that such thing as build exists. That doesn't mean that he is fake. If he enters a dungeon and starts attacking enemies, he is damage dealer. If he enters a dungeon and starts healing allies, he is a healer. If he enters a dungeon and starts to taunt enemies, he is a tank. If this activity is the same as what is set in his role, he is not fake, even if there is no build there.spartaxoxo wrote: »A person who is not building their character to be capable of massive damage is not a dps.
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They didn't set a number because what is massive and how you are capable varies from game to game.
In this game your capacity comes from your build.
If the focus of your build is doing a lot of damage, you are a dps. If you are dealing damage in the game you might be dps'ing but your role is not dps. As a dps character is one specifically capable of dealing lots of damage. It has to be the focus of the build.
So someone in dps gear with a bunch of damage skills on their bar is a dps, regardless if they are skilled at making the most of that build or not.
Someone in healer gear who's focus is on self-survival and little or no dps skills on their bar is not a dps, even if they are dealing damage in that moment.
The issue is exasperated with Transmute Crystals. Those are part of the rewards 365 days a year. The undaunted event is not. No event is.Today? Yes. Last week, people were farming gold and purple boxes and event tickets. The prize itself is not the issue. Any reward that can be farmed will be the issue. If people can do it more than once per day, some people will do that. If people can just do it once per day, then some people will just do that.
Yes, I already stated this. Which is why their needs to be a gear/skill/roll check for tanks and healers. If a role check is implemented, then rewards can stay, althoguh transmute crystals from dungeons still makes no sense. They however make all the sense in the world if obtained through crafting dailies.While I want Transmute Thingies to be available through other PVE activities besides dungeons, I know that people will still farm dungeons for whatever reward the dungeon has to offer. If not Transmute, then sticker book, or XP, or gold, or achievements, or just because they are bored over lunch and like the excitement of the dungeon.
I still wait 45 minutes plus for dungeon runs as a solo DPS in a queue. This has been the case since day one of me playing the game. Nothing ZOS has done has changed this issue. In fact, I waited 3 consecutive 45 minute stretches DURING the event, nothing ever popped.And...Remove the daily rewards, and you remove most of the fake tanking and speed runners.
My thinking is that this would have the opposite effect and get worse.
The reason is that removing rewards would remove incentive, and removing incentive attracts fewer players, and that will increase queue times. In the end, the demand for fake roles increases in order to bring the queue times down for those willing to do it. Faced with generally longer queue times, speed runs become more necessary in order to bring the total time (queue+dungeon) down into the acceptable range.
I would completely remove roles for normal dungeon queues.
[/queue] That will not work in the case of DLC dungeons and only invites MORE speed runners and "fake tanks"....not a good idea, not even remotely a good idea.I do not believe that there is anything that can be done to prevent speed running. I am sure that there are some people who do Fungal Grotto I, with the shortcut, that think that dungeon is too long. [/quote[
I disagree, I mean World of Warcraft has a program implemented that works wonders.
The issue is not that it can't be done, it seems like the issue is an unwillingness to make it happen.The shortcut benefits speed runners, not the low levels queuing to run their first dungeon and do their quest. It would make zero sense to embolden speed runners. The shortcut should be patched, it should have been patched years ago.Specific to FG1, ZOS should decide how they want that dungeon to be run. Either eliminate the short cut, or put a ramp up out of the water to the Dreugh King's arena area. If they like the short cut, possibly allow a short cut before the first mini-boss to expedite arrival at the Dreugh King.I would also make it so that Transmute Thingies were common daily rewards for other PVE activities besides dungeons, trials, and arenas.
Crafting. They should come from crafting dailies.
Design at its core is problem solving, regardless of the discipline.!. I expect some people like many of the ideas presented but that does not mean they are workable. The ones I have seen since I joined the game Zenimax seems to have added some features to the game based on good suggestions or designs. The recent armory (or whatever they are calling it) is a good example of Zenimax acting on a good suggestion.
With this, you said in a recent post you were a designer (assuming a game designer) and had ideas. I asked for the idea. I am also curious what MMOs you were a designer for.
2. I will admit the ESO has more moving parts compared to other MMORPGs with very simple designs like WoW and FF14. However, since a great many players have learned to play the game and there are many sites with build ideas it does seem that the player does have a great amount of personal responsibility to learn what to do. This is a fact in any MMORPG that the player will need to learn aspects of the game from what gear to equip and rotations that work well. Those that choose to end up doing ok or do great.
Tanking is much more in depth than that. I would argue its the hardest job, as evidence of how few players roll tanks. Tanking is not just about holding aggro, its about responsibility. Its the tanks job to keep the group alive. It's the tanks job to understand the encounters to the nth degree. Content is generally more forgiving to DPS in regards to the encounter. This is not the case with tanking. A bad tank will end in a dissolved party. A bad DPS will mean a longer run.4. Considering tanking is fairly straightforward. Much more than damage dealing, and I say this as one who has recently started tanking, it is very intuitive and has a very simple design at the foundation. It cannot be any more straightforward than taunting. I have also heard from tanks in my guild (and occasionally seen posted in a thread) that they do not use the GF because of they got tired of the bad groups that it is clear what the reason is. I expect they rarely bother posting in a thread like this because they do not care about the lack of tanks queuing via the GF since the GF is not their problem anymore.
I have done the same. I have pulled 65% of the DPS as a healer in some groups. But this is not due to players being bad, quite often its due to a lack of understanding how the game works, which is not even remotely intuitive.Also, as a player who started this game earlier this year and saw at a low CP that I was doing more damage as a healer (that was still healing and putting out orbs) than max-level CP players in CP 1.
1. When I saw that several times before joining my guild and then hears the tanks speak seems rather clear why the GF lacks tanks.
I am not allowed to divulge this information.I do look forward to seeing the ideas you will present as a designer. It would also be interesting to see your related background as it will add context.
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[snip] DPS first and foremost is a role and describes the roll of that player within the "trinity" which also gives non-verbal communication to the other party members on the role of that player. Same as tank, same as healer.spartaxoxo wrote: »
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Your build is part of that focus. Literally. That's why they have damage skills as the primary focus on the dps build in the build helper tool.
If the focus of your build is not dealing damage, you're not a dps.
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If a dps skill bar don't matter than neither does tank or healer. A tank with no taunt is still a tank because they'll have aggro sometimes. A healer who only heals themselves is just a bad healer not a fake healer. They healed a nonzero amount of damage.
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But once the single target boss encounter starts, the entire thing reverses and the AFF lock will pull the hardest DPS in the dungeon, all things being equal.
I'd like to see the choice when doing random dungeons.
Until a few weeks ago, I'd never done a random normal or a DLC dungeon. I'd soloed base game dungeons or gone through with guildies, but I'd never done a random normal.
When I agreed to do one, I was thinking it would take around 10-15 minutes, which was great, because I wanted to log off in 15 minutes.
We ended up in Frostvault. It took around 45 minutes. I stayed because I don't bail on people, but I wasn't happy about it.
That's when I decided I'll never do a random normal again. I want to know how much time something will take before I agree to do it.
Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards