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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)
Muttsmutt
✭✭✭✭✭
the reason i don't have my sub on auto-renew is that this is not a feature that is actually implemented in the game:
if this were a feature that is actually implemented in the game, i'd probably leave the subscription to auto-renew itself.
as it is, i take advantage of the few days between when it expires and when i need to renew it to access content or benefits i want. i would completely ditch subbing if not for the crafting bag, just because of this one aspect.
it is absolutely backwards & in poor quality, that something you have to pay for becomes detrimental to enjoying the activities you engage in.
doing random normals is one of my favorite activities in the game right now, and while i do enjoy doing randoms partially because of the random aspect, i value my time & do not enjoy RNG outcomes forcing me to spend significantly more time than i have available.
the "random is random" argument becomes unreasonable in my opinion, when you consider that the amount of variance within the randomized outcomes is very, very significant. within the same bracket of randomized dungeons (as in, all of them), you have wildly different tiers of difficulty, correlating with upwards of a half-hour difference between potential RNG outcomes (the dungeon you get). this would be equivalent to having non-set items added to the loot drop tables of bosses- it would create a massive disparity between the potential rewards you get for your time investment.
that being said, i wouldn't even always pick the non-DLC queue. in fact, i'd preferrentially pick the DLC queue whenever i have more time, and when i'm on a more well-geared character- thanks to the curated drop system, there is plenty of incentive to passively farm up all dungeons, including DLC.
i trust that the playerbase is large enough to populate the DLC queue.
EDIT
great discussion, fellas! i'm glad many people have partook in sharing their view.
both sides have raised good arguments, either in favor or detriment of my original proposal.
as it stands, i am no longer as strongly convinced this would be a good idea;
though that may also be in part to my observations over the last week, running only base game dungeons.
what i've observed is that my total time running random normals across all 12 chars was lower by around half an hour, up to an hour. this is without quitting no matter the dungeon- be it FG1 or COA2, whereas before i'd quit here and there depending on the team, dungeon, and the character i was on. however, that's where the positives end.
what i've also observed is that the entire process had me pretty drained & tired by the end of my roster, in the specific way monotony tends to wear one down. while undoubtedly longer & more complex, DLC dungeons are still generally more engaging, more stimulating, and more well-crafted than base game dungeons. i've also felt like part of my motivation for doing randoms was cut off- filling my stickerbook. oh, and, becoming very familiar with every dungeon.
to add to this, as i set time aside to run 12 randoms every day while i was unsubbed, i came across many a PUG group- ranging anywhere from 10k group DPS (not counting myself), to 100k group DPS (once). it became very clear to me that my less well-geared characters were the biggest time-cost to me. this motivated me to stick to only running randoms on characters which have more than three spare skillpoints and a half-leveled weapon line.
all in all, i've changed the way i approach engaging with this part of the game going forward.
both as result of my observations over the last week, and as a result of the discussion in this thread.
i still stand by the point that it feels like subbing to ESO+ comes at a detriment in this particular aspect of the game; yet i am no longer so convinced that separate queues as i've initially suggested would be the right solution. i imagine ZOS is aware of the situation (and that the discussions within this thread provide good insight) & should they figure out a balanced solution that takes all factors into account, they'll roll it out- especially considering that this is only going to become an increasingly larger issue as more DLC dungeons are added, similar to the urgarlag pledges issue.
Edited by Muttsmutt on December 1, 2021 10:24PM if this were a feature that is actually implemented in the game, i'd probably leave the subscription to auto-renew itself.
as it is, i take advantage of the few days between when it expires and when i need to renew it to access content or benefits i want. i would completely ditch subbing if not for the crafting bag, just because of this one aspect.
it is absolutely backwards & in poor quality, that something you have to pay for becomes detrimental to enjoying the activities you engage in.
doing random normals is one of my favorite activities in the game right now, and while i do enjoy doing randoms partially because of the random aspect, i value my time & do not enjoy RNG outcomes forcing me to spend significantly more time than i have available.
the "random is random" argument becomes unreasonable in my opinion, when you consider that the amount of variance within the randomized outcomes is very, very significant. within the same bracket of randomized dungeons (as in, all of them), you have wildly different tiers of difficulty, correlating with upwards of a half-hour difference between potential RNG outcomes (the dungeon you get). this would be equivalent to having non-set items added to the loot drop tables of bosses- it would create a massive disparity between the potential rewards you get for your time investment.
that being said, i wouldn't even always pick the non-DLC queue. in fact, i'd preferrentially pick the DLC queue whenever i have more time, and when i'm on a more well-geared character- thanks to the curated drop system, there is plenty of incentive to passively farm up all dungeons, including DLC.
i trust that the playerbase is large enough to populate the DLC queue.
EDIT
great discussion, fellas! i'm glad many people have partook in sharing their view.
both sides have raised good arguments, either in favor or detriment of my original proposal.
as it stands, i am no longer as strongly convinced this would be a good idea;
though that may also be in part to my observations over the last week, running only base game dungeons.
what i've observed is that my total time running random normals across all 12 chars was lower by around half an hour, up to an hour. this is without quitting no matter the dungeon- be it FG1 or COA2, whereas before i'd quit here and there depending on the team, dungeon, and the character i was on. however, that's where the positives end.
what i've also observed is that the entire process had me pretty drained & tired by the end of my roster, in the specific way monotony tends to wear one down. while undoubtedly longer & more complex, DLC dungeons are still generally more engaging, more stimulating, and more well-crafted than base game dungeons. i've also felt like part of my motivation for doing randoms was cut off- filling my stickerbook. oh, and, becoming very familiar with every dungeon.
to add to this, as i set time aside to run 12 randoms every day while i was unsubbed, i came across many a PUG group- ranging anywhere from 10k group DPS (not counting myself), to 100k group DPS (once). it became very clear to me that my less well-geared characters were the biggest time-cost to me. this motivated me to stick to only running randoms on characters which have more than three spare skillpoints and a half-leveled weapon line.
all in all, i've changed the way i approach engaging with this part of the game going forward.
both as result of my observations over the last week, and as a result of the discussion in this thread.
i still stand by the point that it feels like subbing to ESO+ comes at a detriment in this particular aspect of the game; yet i am no longer so convinced that separate queues as i've initially suggested would be the right solution. i imagine ZOS is aware of the situation (and that the discussions within this thread provide good insight) & should they figure out a balanced solution that takes all factors into account, they'll roll it out- especially considering that this is only going to become an increasingly larger issue as more DLC dungeons are added, similar to the urgarlag pledges issue.
PC-EU // UNDEAD
44
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Stanx✭✭✭✭✭
✭As an ESO subscriber, it does annoy me that I'm actively incentivised to drop the sub if I want to run a non-DLC dungeon on group finder. It would be a big QOL improvement to be able to toggle this.
Still, I think the benefits of ESO+ outweigh the cons. But in an ideal world, the subscription should only reap benefits.
EDIT: Grammar cus I'm stupidEdited by Stanx on November 29, 2021 2:12PM26 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 29, 2021 2:37PM26 -
Stanx✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Yeah sure, think anyone would be happy to concede that point.
But the reality is 9 times out of 10 half the group leaves and you have to wait for the timer to refresh before queueing again and hoping for a non-DLC so the group will stick around.16 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo21 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Yeah sure, think anyone would be happy to concede that point.
But the reality is 9 times out of 10 half the group leaves and you have to wait for the timer to refresh before queueing again and hoping for a non-DLC so the group will stick around.
9 times out of 10 I am able to finish the dungeon even if 1 or 2 people leave, because a lot of people don't want to eat the timer. But I never leave group, so usually there's always at least 2 of us trying to finish. So even if 1 person (usually) or 2 leave at the start, there's always enough for us to progress. I very rarely get booted because everyone left, so there's no timer to worry about.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 29, 2021 2:56PM5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
A lot of people just want faster rewards. DLC dungeons take longer.8 -
Stanx✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Yeah sure, think anyone would be happy to concede that point.
But the reality is 9 times out of 10 half the group leaves and you have to wait for the timer to refresh before queueing again and hoping for a non-DLC so the group will stick around.
9 times out of 10 I am able to finish the dungeon even if 1 or 2 people leave, because a lot of people don't want to eat the timer.
Not everyone is as proficient with the game as you. Personally, I'll always at least try and clear until the timer is up.
Like you said in your first post, everyone needs to be able to do this content. Not just those that are capable of 2-manning 4-man content.10 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I bet that the response to this, if any, is that they don't want to further split the queues, which will make it harder for unpopular queues to make a match.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Yeah sure, think anyone would be happy to concede that point.
But the reality is 9 times out of 10 half the group leaves and you have to wait for the timer to refresh before queueing again and hoping for a non-DLC so the group will stick around.
9 times out of 10 I am able to finish the dungeon even if 1 or 2 people leave, because a lot of people don't want to eat the timer.
Not everyone is as proficient with the game as you. Personally, I'll always at least try and clear until the timer is up.
Like you said in your first post, everyone needs to be able to do this content. Not just those that are capable of 2-manning 4-man content.
No. But doing this would pull a lot of people like me out of the queue so they could just dust Fungal Grotto or whatever in half the time or less than a dlc dungeon takes. Because no matter how good I am, those dungeons will always take me longer than the short dungeons due to increased mobs, less shortcuts, and more mechanics.
Right now there's a lot of dlc dungeons getting done because of people like me having to queue it. I know most of the time I wouldn't be helping with dlc dungeons anymore if I had a choice, because I go in there for the rewards not for the love of helping.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 29, 2021 3:02PM6 -
Stanx✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards.
Yeah sure, think anyone would be happy to concede that point.
But the reality is 9 times out of 10 half the group leaves and you have to wait for the timer to refresh before queueing again and hoping for a non-DLC so the group will stick around.
9 times out of 10 I am able to finish the dungeon even if 1 or 2 people leave, because a lot of people don't want to eat the timer.
Not everyone is as proficient with the game as you. Personally, I'll always at least try and clear until the timer is up.
Like you said in your first post, everyone needs to be able to do this content. Not just those that are capable of 2-manning 4-man content.
No. But doing this would pull a lot of people like me out of the queue so they could just dust Fungal Grotto or whatever in half the time or less than a dlc dungeon takes. Because no matter how good I am, those dungeons will always take me longer than the short dungeons due to increased mobs, less shortcuts, and more mechanics.
Right now there's a lot of dlc dungeons getting done because of people like me having to queue it. I know most of the time I wouldn't be helping with dlc dungeons anymore if I had a choice, because I go in there for the rewards not for the love of helping.
I think you're making some pretty darn solid points to be honest with you, and I'm certainly not vain enough to assume that I have either the solution or a mind-set that represents the majority of players, so this is just my opinion.
You're probably right and I probably lack perspective. All I know is I'd toggle DLCs off every now and then for my own personal enjoyment of the game.6 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
They are so unpopular for a few reasons:
- Too long. Even on normal, more than a few of these take a while to do. When you compare to something like FG1, which takes like 5-10 minutes max (even when doing all bosses), a potential 30-40 minute dungeon on normal is not appealing. Sure, with a great group, these can be done quickly, but the coin flip of a good group and an awful group is just not appealing.
- Difficulty and mechanics. On normal, with a bad group, the mechanics for some of these can be unforgiving. Good groups are going to have little issues, but since the finder is random, the chance of getting a group that is awful is high, and when some of the DLC dungeons require following specific mechanics even on normal this very often leads to wipes. Or, for more experienced players, it leads to the having to slog through a dungeon carrying the rest of the team. No one wants to carry a team through a dungeon.17 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I might actually do the random normals, if I could choose non-DLC. I just do not enjoy DLC dungeons at all, so I just avoid all dungeons completely at this point, except if one of my friends or I need something specific, then we just do that dungeon without queuing.11 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
They are so unpopular for a few reasons:
- Too long. Even on normal, more than a few of these take a while to do. When you compare to something like FG1, which takes like 5-10 minutes max (even when doing all bosses), a potential 30-40 minute dungeon on normal is not appealing. Sure, with a great group, these can be done quickly, but the coin flip of a good group and an awful group is just not appealing.
- Difficulty and mechanics. On normal, with a bad group, the mechanics for some of these can be unforgiving. Good groups are going to have little issues, but since the finder is random, the chance of getting a group that is awful is high, and when some of the DLC dungeons require following specific mechanics even on normal this very often leads to wipes. Or, for more experienced players, it leads to the having to slog through a dungeon carrying the rest of the team. No one wants to carry a team through a dungeon.
ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.17 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I might actually do the random normals, if I could choose non-DLC. I just do not enjoy DLC dungeons at all, so I just avoid all dungeons completely at this point, except if one of my friends or I need something specific, then we just do that dungeon without queuing.
I actually don't mind running random normals with the DLC involved. Mostly because I know I can mostly solo them, or at least manage to carry a team if I need to.
What I do not do is random vet, because I really don't feel like potentially wasting an hour + and not even getting a completion.9 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
I disagree. I think they were responding to requests for more interesting (aka challenging) dungeon content. They were not responding to requests for short and easy dungeons. Thus, the DLC dungeons are longer and have more interesting content.
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
I disagree. I think they were responding to requests for more interesting (aka challenging) dungeon content. They were not responding to requests for short and easy dungeons. Thus, the DLC dungeons are longer and have more interesting content.
Unfortunately, I am pretty sure those requests were all made long before ZOS decided to tie a daily transmute reward to them, and turned doing them into yet another daily job to deal with before you can actually start playing. Yes I know, some folks actually enjoy them, but pretty sure the majority looks at them as a daily task to earn their transmutes, judging by any guild chat I have ever heard about them.5 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
I disagree. I think they were responding to requests for more interesting (aka challenging) dungeon content. They were not responding to requests for short and easy dungeons. Thus, the DLC dungeons are longer and have more interesting content.
Interesting is subjective. While some DLC bosses have more interesting mechanics, some are nothing but a pain.
Prime example is Castle Thorn final boss. The absolutely [snip] mechanic of following a circle on the ground for several minutes while waiting for imps to spawn is neither fun or interesting.
Same with the Centurion in Frostvault, it does invulnerable, does some really stupid mechanic, few more seconds of combat, invulnerable again.
It would actually be more difficult and interesting if the lasers happened without immunity phase.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 29, 2021 3:49PM12 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
I disagree. I think they were responding to requests for more interesting (aka challenging) dungeon content. They were not responding to requests for short and easy dungeons. Thus, the DLC dungeons are longer and have more interesting content.
Which is fine on it's own. And, in fact, I don't think people are really taking an issue with them being more challenging or lengthy. What they are taking issue with is that those more challenging and lengthy dungeons are included in the random dungeon pool.
These dungeons aren't challenging or lengthy in a vacuum. The problem arises when a dungeon that takes 10 minutes is in the same queue as a dungeon that could take an hour. And it makes it even worse when the only reason these dungeons are paired together in the same queue is because you pay more money than other players to play the game.
DLC dungeons should be optional in the queue, because they already are optional for players who have not paid for them.
In fact, DLC random should be it's own queue. This would do a few things positive for the experience:
- Removes them from the regular dungeons. As we add 4 DLC dungeons per year, they are disproportionately likely to pop up. And this just keep increasing each year.
- Ensures that only people who are wanting to do the DLC dungeons are in the DLC dungeon queue. Which also means that the likelihood of completing the dungeon, finding competent players, and finding players that actually want to be there increases.
I would like to end up in a DLC dungeon with a group of players who actually intend to be there, and who may even be competent at the dungeon, instead of the random grab bag of players who are just doing their daily random for XP and crystals and aren't anywhere near prepared for a DLC dungeon, even on normal.14 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ooh, good idea. Maybe they could also do that with Battlegrounds, so anyone who wants to do deathmatch wouldn't have to bother with the objective modes! We can have a simple 'random' and 'deathmatch only' option, and that way the DM players get only DM games, and then other people can get objective matches whenever they want!
... oh wait.
That's one of the biggest problems here - if 'non-DLC' was an option, the people who PUG to get their 10 transmutes would obviously prefer getting FGI to Fang Lair. That means that anyone who wants to just grind BDV to get their Kinras gear would then be waiting in queues for hours since nobody would be willing to PUG a DLC, especially if it's not the pledge.
Yes, DLC dungeons are much harder and require a lot more coordination, while something like FGI requires almost no thought at all. And yes, getting a DLC means there's less of a chance you'd actually complete it. But this is preciseley what they did with the BG queues - first removing all of the 'unfavorite' modes, and now bringing them back, but in such a way that they rarely if ever pop randomly. If there was a 'non-DLC' option in the Dungeon Finder, this would definitely go exactly the same way.
Perhaps if they wanted to add that as a toggle, they'd also have to change the rewards based on the effort. As in, if you queue for a non-DLC random, you get 1-3 transmutes and 5-10k XP max. If you want more, you need to go for DLC. I've always wondered why random normal and random vet give the same reward in the first place...8 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If this would mean less fake tanks in DLC dungeons, heck yes.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Ooh, good idea. Maybe they could also do that with Battlegrounds, so anyone who wants to do deathmatch wouldn't have to bother with the objective modes! We can have a simple 'random' and 'deathmatch only' option, and that way the DM players get only DM games, and then other people can get objective matches whenever they want!
... oh wait.
That's one of the biggest problems here - if 'non-DLC' was an option, the people who PUG to get their 10 transmutes would obviously prefer getting FGI to Fang Lair. That means that anyone who wants to just grind BDV to get their Kinras gear would then be waiting in queues for hours since nobody would be willing to PUG a DLC, especially if it's not the pledge.
Yes, DLC dungeons are much harder and require a lot more coordination, while something like FGI requires almost no thought at all. And yes, getting a DLC means there's less of a chance you'd actually complete it. But this is preciseley what they did with the BG queues - first removing all of the 'unfavorite' modes, and now bringing them back, but in such a way that they rarely if ever pop randomly. If there was a 'non-DLC' option in the Dungeon Finder, this would definitely go exactly the same way.
Perhaps if they wanted to add that as a toggle, they'd also have to change the rewards based on the effort. As in, if you queue for a non-DLC random, you get 1-3 transmutes and 5-10k XP max. If you want more, you need to go for DLC. I've always wondered why random normal and random vet give the same reward in the first place...
Counterpoint, if it is your intention to grind the same dungeon for gear over and over, why should other players be dragged through the dungeon? Maybe get your own farming group or learn to solo it (fairly easy solo too by the way).
Also, if people are waiting in a queue for hours because no one wants to PUG the dungeon, maybe, just maybe, that is a clear indicator that the DEVs are wasting their time on DLC dungeons. NO ONE WANTS TO DO THEM. If people wanted to do them, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So leave them to people to find their own groups to complete, or opt into for a PUG. Not default.
If DLC dungeons were base game and available to all players whether they paid for a subscription of ESO plus or for the dungeons themselves it would be one thing. But since the player base is already opted out of these dungeons by default by not paying more money for the game, any arguments for leaving them in the random queue or irrelevant. Paying more money for a game should not provide a worse experience for a player, and right now, including the DLC dungeons in the random queue provides a worse experience for the player base.10 -
ivelbob✭✭✭A big reason for keeping DLC and non-DLC in the same queue is that these people are also used to fill party holes for people trying to PUG specific dungeons.
Let's say you needed to farm a specific piece of gear from a DLC dungeon and used the Dungeon Finder to pick that one repeatedly. If the Random queues were split, be prepared to wait a VERY long time for your Specific DLC Dungeon to pop because most people would just pick Random Non DLC for speed and you would be left high and dry.
10 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, if people are waiting in a queue for hours because no one wants to PUG the dungeon, maybe, just maybe, that is a clear indicator that the DEVs are wasting their time on DLC dungeons. NO ONE WANTS TO DO THEM. If people wanted to do them, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So leave them to people to find their own groups to complete, or opt into for a PUG. Not default.
If DLC dungeons were base game and available to all players whether they paid for a subscription of ESO plus or for the dungeons themselves it would be one thing. But since the player base is already opted out of these dungeons by default by not paying more money for the game, any arguments for leaving them in the random queue or irrelevant. Paying more money for a game should not provide a worse experience for a player, and right now, including the DLC dungeons in the random queue provides a worse experience for the player base.
The Activity Finder is for getting people into groups that can't or don't want to make a dedicated group, it is not for handing out transmute crystals. The person queueing for a specific dungeon that they need is the one that the activity finder is built for and they have first priority. The transmute crystals are a bonus designed to entice you play with and help them out. It would be more prudent to remove rewards entirely than to push people who need help out of the queue.
Paying does NOT give you a better or worse experience. Whether or not you want to be able to PUG dungeons is purely subjective. There are plenty of people paying specifically so they can do those dungeons in the queue too. And their experience would be made worse by a separate queue because they'd take a lot longer to find a group. The system isn't designed to punish people who paid for content they don't want to actually do, it's designed for making sure people who paid for content can actually do that content. It's just a negative side effect that some people have a worse experience because they are paying for content they don't want.
TL;DR
ZOS is prioritizing making sure content that is paid for is fully functional, over catering to the tastes of people who paid for content they don't actually want to use.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 29, 2021 5:03PM9 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The main reason I don't queue for randoms is because I don't want to commit to the amount of time a DLC dungeon requires.
Then there is the added difficulty... WHY are DLC dungeons more difficult? What is the reason for this? All normal dungeons should have comparable difficulty so why this distinction?PCNA9 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Also, if people are waiting in a queue for hours because no one wants to PUG the dungeon, maybe, just maybe, that is a clear indicator that the DEVs are wasting their time on DLC dungeons. NO ONE WANTS TO DO THEM. If people wanted to do them, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So leave them to people to find their own groups to complete, or opt into for a PUG. Not default.
If DLC dungeons were base game and available to all players whether they paid for a subscription of ESO plus or for the dungeons themselves it would be one thing. But since the player base is already opted out of these dungeons by default by not paying more money for the game, any arguments for leaving them in the random queue or irrelevant. Paying more money for a game should not provide a worse experience for a player, and right now, including the DLC dungeons in the random queue provides a worse experience for the player base.
The Activity Finder is for getting people into groups that can't or don't want to make a dedicated group, it is not for handing out transmute crystals. The person queueing for a specific dungeon that they need is the one that the activity finder is built for and they have first priority. The transmute crystals are a bonus designed to entice you play with and help them out. It would be more prudent to remove rewards entirely than to push people who need help out of the queue.
Paying does NOT give you a better or worse experience. Whether or not you want to be able to PUG dungeons is purely subjective. There are plenty of people paying specifically so they can do those dungeons in the queue too. And their experience would be made worse by a separate queue because they'd take a lot longer to find a group. The system isn't designed to punish people who paid for content they don't want to actually do, it's designed for making sure people who paid for content can actually do that content. It's just a negative side effect that some people have a worse experience because they are paying for content they don't want.
TL;DR
ZOS is prioritizing making sure content that is paid for is fully functional, over catering to the tastes of people who paid for content they don't actually want to use.
If most people don't even want to do those more difficult dungeon at random, then yes, it is a worse experience for players who are paying for content. It isn't a side effect, it is the majority of the experience. If more players actually wanted to do the DLC dungeons, this wouldn't be an issues, but DLC dungeons are already outnumbering base dungeons.
Like, I can pay for DLC dungeons and choose to go into specific ones at will, or even choose to join them into my random queue sometimes, but not want them in my random queue every time I queue for random.3 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
They are so unpopular for a few reasons:
- Too long. Even on normal, more than a few of these take a while to do. When you compare to something like FG1, which takes like 5-10 minutes max (even when doing all bosses), a potential 30-40 minute dungeon on normal is not appealing. Sure, with a great group, these can be done quickly, but the coin flip of a good group and an awful group is just not appealing.
- Difficulty and mechanics. On normal, with a bad group, the mechanics for some of these can be unforgiving. Good groups are going to have little issues, but since the finder is random, the chance of getting a group that is awful is high, and when some of the DLC dungeons require following specific mechanics even on normal this very often leads to wipes. Or, for more experienced players, it leads to the having to slog through a dungeon carrying the rest of the team. No one wants to carry a team through a dungeon.
ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
That is to me the wrong attitude. The game is fun. Imagine wanting less fun.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."6 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?
They are so unpopular for a few reasons:
- Too long. Even on normal, more than a few of these take a while to do. When you compare to something like FG1, which takes like 5-10 minutes max (even when doing all bosses), a potential 30-40 minute dungeon on normal is not appealing. Sure, with a great group, these can be done quickly, but the coin flip of a good group and an awful group is just not appealing.
- Difficulty and mechanics. On normal, with a bad group, the mechanics for some of these can be unforgiving. Good groups are going to have little issues, but since the finder is random, the chance of getting a group that is awful is high, and when some of the DLC dungeons require following specific mechanics even on normal this very often leads to wipes. Or, for more experienced players, it leads to the having to slog through a dungeon carrying the rest of the team. No one wants to carry a team through a dungeon.
ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.
That is to me the wrong attitude. The game is fun. Imagine wanting less fun.
Players want more options so they can enjoy what they find fun.PCNA11 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If most people don't even want to do those more difficult dungeon at random, then yes, it is a worse experience for players who are paying for content. It isn't a side effect, it is the majority of the experience. If more players actually wanted to do the DLC dungeons, this wouldn't be an issues, but DLC dungeons are already outnumbering base dungeons.
No. It's still a side effect. The system isn't designed to just give you transmutes, nor is it designed just to annoy customers who don't like those dungeons. The system is designed to give paying customers the content they paid for, all else is secondary.
You are already being compensated for doing a dungeon you don't want to do. If you just want a particular dungeon, you can already queue for it.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 29, 2021 5:33PM8 -
SickDuck✭✭✭✭✭The whole concept of normal vs veteran is outdated. While ZOS managed to standardize so many aspects of the game, they failed to do so with dungeons. There should be more difficulty levels and the scale should be something like:
normal (type 1) < normal (type 2) < normal DLC & veteran (type 1) < veteran (type 2) < veteran DLC
With standardized difficulty all dungeons could be available on all levels - even a DLC could be brought down to FG1 level and the other way round. This could be extended with a 'veteran HM' option where all dungeons are brought to a similar HM experience as DLCs. And yes, it would be great if we could explicitly queue for HM and not rely on others' grace regarding it.
Other points:- People should get to random normal 1's by default and to higher levels only once they completed the previous level
- Level and CP restrictions should be removed from all dungeons (replaced by previous quality gate)
- Random should be random - no pre-made groups!
- There should be an incentive to run the harder levels
- Disable quests on higher levels
- Replacements during mid-run should be able to complete pledges
- All (non-secret) bosses should be killed :P
- No leaders, all members should be able to find replacements
- Remove option to disband a group
Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner5 -
npuk✭✭✭[*] Remove option to disband a group
[/list]
This went years ago with the introduction of vote to kick, you can only disband once the event is complete.
I do think on RDF the crown should always land on the tank or replace the crown icon with a shield icon and drop that on the tank.
The Sacrificial Warriors GMXbox One EU:18x CP Chars (2300+ CP)Xbox One NA: 3x CP Chars (800+ CP)Xbox One (alt) EU:5x CP Chars (1500+ CP)Xbox One (alt 2) EU:1x CP Chars (450+ CP)PC EU: 1x CP Char (400+ CP)1