Are fake dds a thing?

peacenote

Fake dds are a thing.

I believe a fake anything is when someone goes into group content knowing they are not well suited for the role and choosing it anyway. It is a selfish choice when they know they will drag the group down but they care more about their personal goal than the group experience.

For a fake dps, this could be something like...

-someone not bothering to change out their PvP build
-two friends are the same role so one changes to damage so they can queue together
-a tank is not confident with harder content but wants to see it/get a drop/obtain skill point from story (whatever) so they put on a couple of the damage abilities they use in overland
-someone has a dual role but forgot to grab gear from bank and instead of asking the group to wait for a second thinks "oh, who cares, let's see if they try and kick me"
-a tank or healer gave gear to another toon, wants to do a quick pledge and doesn't feel like re-logging, so they slap on whatever is in their accessible inventory and queue because they know it is an easy dungeon and lots of people will be running it

Fake = deception
Bad = unskilled at role

Fake does not always equal Bad. Bad does not always equal Fake.

That's the thing with these conversations. Some people know the game so well that they can slap on a taunt and take a group through content competently. I would say they are faking the role but not bad. Some people just want a faster queue and hope they will get carried. They are fake AND bad. The faster queue thing is not typically the reason someone chooses to be a fake dps but there are reasons and, of COURSE they exist, because deception is also a thing and people love to see what they can get away with. I think the people saying fake dps is not a thing just aren't imaginative enough to think about why someone would do this on purpose if their queue is longer. But there are reasons.

The problem is, accusing ANYONE of being fake in any role can be hurtful because it is impossible to know someone's intent, 100% for sure, unless they tell you. And it is especially difficult to identify with the dps role as it is usually what people try first, many people are learning, and ESO continues to attract a lot of new players while maintaining a good amount of experienced players, and there can be an extremely large skill gap. Throw in language differences and connection issues and you've got a great recipe for disaster if you ASSUME people are faking a role.

But I can 100% confirm that people fake being a DPS for some of the reasons I listed and more. How? Because I have been in groups where the people have been up front about it and said so.

Lady_Galadhiel

Fake dds are a thing.

coop500 wrote: »

ESO doesn't teach you much, you HAVE to research and most people don't, cause most games (singleplayer) don't require you to and it's actually discouraged.

Exactly this.The game does not teach you how to play propperly any role and most people come in with a singleplayer mind into an MMO.
Plus I would also say the gear makes a big difference ofc,I saw a lot of dd's wearing sets because it just sounded good in the description to them,or putting Attribute points into mag and stam because they didn't decide what they want to be.
All this stuff does not get explained anywhere and a lot of people don't research on their own.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

To be a DPS you have to do more than just do damage though. You have to focus on doing damage. I get where you're coming from, and I mostly agree with what you are saying. But I believe when a player signs up for a DPS role but has no intention of actually focusing on doing damage, but instead they spend their time healing or tanking, I think those can qualify as fake DPS under any pretext. They're very rare, but I have seen them.

Where does it say that? What book of rules are you reading from? And is this knowledge shared with all players? You do not have a right to add extra definitions to the already defined terms.

so what you mean the best option is to go for dung with 4x tank becasue everyone anyway will deal some damage and they wont be glass cannon with need to be aware of red fire cirlces etc, with higher survivability without need to healer if build right
it will be much more efficient to have 4 tank with low dps in group than 2-3 low(/bad) dps without survivability, being glass cannon which can die just easy and we can cleary say we will have group with 4 tanks and 4 DD's at once tbh, so 2 in 1!

It's rude to put words into people's mouths, please don't put them into mine. I dont care what sets you use or skills, so long as you can legitimately clear content in a reasononably timely manner. But of the roles only tank and healer can be defined as fake by not living up to their roles. The dd role is purposely undefined. If 4 tanky characters clear a dungeon... then they did it right even if it took a little extra time. Though I don't believe that the same tanky characters can Clear every vet dungeon because the mechanics won't allow it. So they are better off queueing as tanks and leading other groups through dungeons.

no no I didnt mean to put word in your mounts, I just stated what I understand from you, sorry then if this looked like I put words on your mount

but still anyway as DD role is not definted as everyon deal daamge doing any role then as I said - if we are going to have very low dps in group then it is much better to go with 4 tanks in group and have atleast survivability while keeping low dps in group if you dont care about dps checks before 1shot mechanics in harder content

That one shot is what I'm talking about, there are a multitude of different boss battles, dps check fights and kill mechanics. This doesn't imply they aren't DD only they aren't Dpsing enough for the content they are attempting and that they need to change or improve.

The abilities of a player are a result of learning and practice. Its why difficulty ramps upward in games. There is no deception in being bad or on the bottom of dps and we all know no one is ever going to complain about the content that is you were good enough to complete.

Therefore the term fake dd is in fact simply a form negative bias, people don't remember folks that do their jobs, but they do remember the one time you fail. That is why fake dd is such a destructive term because it has a separate entity of the meanings of fake tank and fake healer.

what youa re stating here now you are writing about just bad dps or without knowledge

but youa re still missing there can be actually fake DD's who dont want to learn their role, do their job as DAMAGE focused role, like anyone just using their pvp gear and doing same daamge as tank or healer so no contrubuting their own wealth to group as for role they signed up and thye dont want to change this, to try better actually but staying at what they were doing and so making fail on boss/trash mobs becasue there was not enough dps becasue of this guy who didnt want to adapt for his role

same I wont define someone as DD when signed as DD when they are using resto staff or/and shield with sword and not wanting to change this for better dps weapon when they dont have enoguh dps, they will be called fake because truly they dont use weapon DD should use to deal enough damage for his role is he have problem to achieve this

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

peacenote wrote: »

But I can 100% confirm that people fake being a DPS for some of the reasons I listed and more. How? Because I have been in groups where the people have been up front about it and said so.

Same here. Or well not always upfront, but always obvious.

And it's not always deceptive. Like the fake mustache example I posted where the intent was to be obvious about it.

It's not even always bad.

Also, even if someone is faking, you shouldn't call them fake. Just ask them why they are doing stuff. (or kick them)

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Therefore the term fake dd is in fact simply a form negative bias, people don't remember folks that do their jobs, but they do remember the one time you fail. That is why fake dd is such a destructive term because it has a separate entity of the meanings of fake tank and fake healer.

Strawman argument. Nobody used it that way.

They used it to mean "someone who is not putting in an effort to do the role they queued for"

And many people offered their own separation of a bad dps from a fake.

Your meaning is subjective not objective and is not supported by the verbiage of the game itself. You can not be the arbiter of "fake dd" because the term can not exist. You can't judge their effort with out offering proof and Your evidence is anecdotal at best.

DD is not a tank or healer, these roles have clearly defined operations that if not completed equate to a fake. But DD does not have a clearly defined operation only a focus and that focus is determined by the individual on how best to accomplish.

yes, DD can be tank if he have highest dps in group, he will take agro of mobs he have dealt most damage from group but he will be later jsut bad tank for harder dungs because of to low survivability but still will be good tank with keeping agro and mobs/boss in place

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Your meaning is subjective not objective and is not supported by the verbiage of the game itself.

Why would a community term need the developer's permission. Moreover, I don't need proof to complain about my anecdotal experience nor to define a commonly understood phenomenon.

I just need a reliable defintion of dps, which IS supported by the game. As the game says "focuses" on dps, not "anyone who does damage."

And their skill advisor uses it the traditional way.

And the industry at large defines it the traditonal way.

And that usage is codified in a real dictionary.

The burden of proof is on YOU to show why your personal defintion is better than everyone else's defintion.

And yet even there it failed on two objective criteria: that you don't define a term by what it is not, and that you must be specific enough that it doesn't include everything

ZOS_Ragnar

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coop500

Fake dds are not a thing.

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

ESO doesn't teach you much, you HAVE to research and most people don't, cause most games (singleplayer) don't require you to and it's actually discouraged.

Exactly this.The game does not teach you how to play propperly any role and most people come in with a singleplayer mind into an MMO.
Plus I would also say the gear makes a big difference ofc,I saw a lot of dd's wearing sets because it just sounded good in the description to them,or putting Attribute points into mag and stam because they didn't decide what they want to be.
All this stuff does not get explained anywhere and a lot of people don't research on their own.

Exactly, I am guilty of throwing sets together that sound nifty (but I still try to keep to a standard of, like, all stamina or all magicka), but I have a dedicated 'meta tank' that I use for serious group content that I have recently gotten the Beast personality on. I also have a few good healers.

Someday I want to make a 'meta' DPS to experience the difference between proper sets and my brainstorming.

I have way too much time put into this game (nearly 4000 hour playtime) and I know most people in this thread should shun me from the DPS role, as on my best day and best current character I'm lucky to pull 20K (that's not on a trial dummy though)
But I do run my brainstorm builds in random normals and most of the time? I am doing same or equal damage as the other DD, unless they're the crazy meta breeze through everything type, then I think everyone feels useless and we're just jogging along.

The problem is, while I am not really a 'good' player, I know my limits and don't queue for vet content on my brainstorm characters. But I only know this from my experience and time reading the forums and such. I promise you at least 80% of the players probably don't even know this forum exists and never researched anything except maybe skyshard locations, MAYBE.

I have met players who split their points between health and their damage stat, it doesn't help that we are given 64 points at max level and we're all supposed to pick a stat. The game may as well just ask us to pick an stat and ignore the point system. Even the skills adviser is flawed in many ways, especially for stam builds. Stamina warden doesn't even tell you the flies have a stamina morph now, same for the new sorc stamina skills.

There's also the case of the whole stamina or magicka DPS thing. Sure the skills adviser SORT of hints at this if you already know about it? But new players don't get it. Especially for classes like nightblade (which almost every new player picks because SHADOW and ASSASSIN edgy life) So a lot of inexperienced players out there are probably mixing stamina and magicka skills and splitting their attribute points. My mom tried to do this and it was a AHHH moment. For me it's so ingrained in my head now that I don't think about it much but new players probably don't see a problem, especially since Skyrim and Oblivion (and maybe Morrowind?) all supported hybrid (magicka spell casting and steel weapons) builds as viable or even GOOD. Hell in Oblivion you basically were a hybrid no matter what unless you purposely go out of your way to never cast spells.

Xebov

Fake dds are a thing.

For me fake is a player that is unable to perform its role sufficiently.

Based on this yes there are fake DDs. There are enought DD players that dont deal any meaningful dps for the content they want to make. This also includes PvP players that try to get daily dungeons done without propper gear.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

coop500 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

ESO doesn't teach you much, you HAVE to research and most people don't, cause most games (singleplayer) don't require you to and it's actually discouraged.

Exactly this.The game does not teach you how to play propperly any role and most people come in with a singleplayer mind into an MMO.
Plus I would also say the gear makes a big difference ofc,I saw a lot of dd's wearing sets because it just sounded good in the description to them,or putting Attribute points into mag and stam because they didn't decide what they want to be.
All this stuff does not get explained anywhere and a lot of people don't research on their own.

Exactly, I am guilty of throwing sets together that sound nifty (but I still try to keep to a standard of, like, all stamina or all magicka), but I have a dedicated 'meta tank' that I use for serious group content that I have recently gotten the Beast personality on. I also have a few good healers.

Someday I want to make a 'meta' DPS to experience the difference between proper sets and my brainstorming.

I have way too much time put into this game (nearly 4000 hour playtime) and I know most people in this thread should shun me from the DPS role, as on my best day and best current character I'm lucky to pull 20K (that's not on a trial dummy though)
But I do run my brainstorm builds in random normals and most of the time? I am doing same or equal damage as the other DD, unless they're the crazy meta breeze through everything type, then I think everyone feels useless and we're just jogging along.

The problem is, while I am not really a 'good' player, I know my limits and don't queue for vet content on my brainstorm characters. But I only know this from my experience and time reading the forums and such. I promise you at least 80% of the players probably don't even know this forum exists and never researched anything except maybe skyshard locations, MAYBE.

I have met players who split their points between health and their damage stat, it doesn't help that we are given 64 points at max level and we're all supposed to pick a stat. The game may as well just ask us to pick an stat and ignore the point system. Even the skills adviser is flawed in many ways, especially for stam builds. Stamina warden doesn't even tell you the flies have a stamina morph now, same for the new sorc stamina skills.

There's also the case of the whole stamina or magicka DPS thing. Sure the skills adviser SORT of hints at this if you already know about it? But new players don't get it. Especially for classes like nightblade (which almost every new player picks because SHADOW and ASSASSIN edgy life) So a lot of inexperienced players out there are probably mixing stamina and magicka skills and splitting their attribute points. My mom tried to do this and it was a AHHH moment. For me it's so ingrained in my head now that I don't think about it much but new players probably don't see a problem, especially since Skyrim and Oblivion (and maybe Morrowind?) all supported hybrid (magicka spell casting and steel weapons) builds as viable or even GOOD. Hell in Oblivion you basically were a hybrid no matter what unless you purposely go out of your way to never cast spells.

All of this is why I find it condescending and extremely offensive to say that someone who isn't at all trying is the same as someone who is. I am not saying that as bait, it is my genuine belief about this pov.

Becoming a good dps is a very long and frustrating journey. People are gonna be at various stages of it in randoms. Some will be at the beginning and only pulling like 12-15k. And some will be super elite players in shiny skins and 100k dps making nearly everyone else feel kinda useless.

But they all have one thing in common. They are trying their best to succeed.

And then you have the people who don't care about group content. And actively seek to use group finder to carriee through real quick for an item they want, and thus are not interested in adjusting their play for the content they are doing.

Why should these two be equated. Why does someone who absolutely refuses to learn or try be lumped in with someone who is doing their very best?

Why should someone just letting their pets auto-attack for them, or only spamming light attacks, or jumped in on a pvp tank as a dps because they didn't want to deal with aggro be considered the same?

Those people made an active decision to join group content with full knowledge that they don't meet basic standards.

I genuinely find it extremely disrespectful to the bad dps. You're basically saying they are such trash that they are indistinguishable from people literally doing nothing to meet the role.

And I also find it extremely disrespectful to the fakes. How stupid do you think they are? Just because they don't care as much about the integrity of the dungeon finder as you don't make them an idiot.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Your meaning is subjective not objective and is not supported by the verbiage of the game itself.

Why would a community term need the developer's permission. Moreover, I don't need proof to complain about my anecdotal experience nor to define a commonly understood phenomenon.

I just need a reliable defintion of dps, which IS supported by the game. As the game says "focuses" on dps, not "anyone who does damage."

And their skill advisor uses it the traditional way.

And the industry at large defines it the traditonal way.

And that usage is codified in a real dictionary.

The burden of proof is on YOU to show why your personal defintion is better than everyone else's defintion.

And yet even there it failed on two objective criteria: that you don't define a term by what it is not, and that you must be specific enough that it doesn't include everything

Go back to the in game verbiage, and re-read them. I haven't defined anything only understood them more clearly and communicated their meaning to you.

Why can we have fake healers and tanks? There is only one reason and it's clearly written in their tootips... they responsible to others. It clearly makes reference certain actions in regards to other players. That is why there are fake tanks and fake healers as they have consciously disregarded the required responsibilities if their role.

Now look at damage. There is nothing in there about their responsibility to anything other than damage which is their focus. But it doesn't say how to accomplish that because the role requires greater flexibility than the other roles. With out a mechanic that requires it... you dont need dds, they are just oil to help move the tank and healer through the dungeons bowl system faster.

So let's look at your examples, some who doesn't want to learn is not "fake dd" simply an obtuse person. Someone who is uniformed is not fake DD simply some one who doesn't know any better. Someone trolling you purposely is not fake DD simply a troll.

There can not be fake DD because there is no responsibility for them to fake. Focus is completely subjective term. Quality is completely object and can be calculated in game. But fake, is simply a term that shouldn't be applied where better terms exist.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Your meaning is subjective not objective and is not supported by the verbiage of the game itself.

Why would a community term need the developer's permission. Moreover, I don't need proof to complain about my anecdotal experience nor to define a commonly understood phenomenon.

I just need a reliable defintion of dps, which IS supported by the game. As the game says "focuses" on dps, not "anyone who does damage."

And their skill advisor uses it the traditional way.

And the industry at large defines it the traditonal way.

And that usage is codified in a real dictionary.

The burden of proof is on YOU to show why your personal defintion is better than everyone else's defintion.

And yet even there it failed on two objective criteria: that you don't define a term by what it is not, and that you must be specific enough that it doesn't include everything

Go back to the in game verbiage, and re-read them. I haven't defined anything only understood them more clearly and communicated their meaning to you.

Yes. You have. Nowhere in the group finder does it say that's intended to be a good description of the role. Nowhere in the group finder does it say anyone who does damage is a DD. That's all your own personal definition based off your personal interpretation of the group finder.

And, in fact, the definition is used more traditionally than their loose defintion in the skill advisor. They have separate skill advice for damage role, tank role, heal role, and no role (called initiate on my Templar).

The quality of that advice is frankly irrelevant to understanding that eso itself does not define these roles so drastically differently than the entire industry.

There can not be fake DD because there is no responsibility for them to fake

Yes. They do. To get kills. Their job is to be doing the majority of the killing in the dungeon. It explicitly states that in the group finder definition.

Tanks = keep stuff from attacking
Healer = give heals to group
Damage = kill the things

Those are the basic responsibilities of your role.

And they teach them the individual way they are intended to get kills in the build advisor (because those quick grabs are NOT meant to be thorough defintions but a quick overview, with class specific advice for meeting the role in the skill advisor) which focuses exclusively on loading their bars up primarily with damage skills for all of the dps builds.

All of which is industry standard.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Your meaning is subjective not objective and is not supported by the verbiage of the game itself.

Why would a community term need the developer's permission. Moreover, I don't need proof to complain about my anecdotal experience nor to define a commonly understood phenomenon.

I just need a reliable defintion of dps, which IS supported by the game. As the game says "focuses" on dps, not "anyone who does damage."

And their skill advisor uses it the traditional way.

And the industry at large defines it the traditonal way.

And that usage is codified in a real dictionary.

The burden of proof is on YOU to show why your personal defintion is better than everyone else's defintion.

And yet even there it failed on two objective criteria: that you don't define a term by what it is not, and that you must be specific enough that it doesn't include everything

Go back to the in game verbiage, and re-read them. I haven't defined anything only understood them more clearly and communicated their meaning to you.

Yes. You have. Nowhere in the group finder does it say that's intended to be a good description of the role. Nowhere in the group finder does it say anyone who does damage is a DD. That's all your own personal definition based off your personal interpretation of the group finder.


And, in fact, the definition is used more traditionally than their loose defintion in the skill advisor. They have separate skill advice for damage role, tank role, heal role, and no role.

What words in the skill adviser? That thing is terrible and generally incorrect. If you build from it you will be a subpar dps. It does not tell you how yo be a dps but recommends a few skills or upgrade along a predetermined path. It's terrible and I teach new folks to immediately turn it off and look elsewhere, like certain websites, for advice on constructive character builds.

I know folks want to conflate the term fake DD with someone not trying. But there are far more worthy words to describe such a person because such a person is not defined by the role but by their attitude. A tank can not try, a healer can not try. The negative experiences we have with others can cloud our own judgments and destroy our objectivity.

But let me say this, I have not defined a single term here today, nor ignored the in game mechanics of the world. ESO is not wow, lineage, everquest or DAOC. The terms once used by these titans do not neatly fit eso mold. The holy trinity of roles only has two conscious choices... healer and tank(there roles which have written responsibility to others), everyone else is simply considered damage by default.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks?

technically we cant have fake tank either always somebody will have agro on mobs, bosses, doesnt matter if they wills tay alive or not, if they wont stay alive they are just bad at this

cyclonus11

Fake dds are a thing.

A "fake DD" is someone who queues as a DD and proceeds to taunt bosses. Sometimes they even have S&B but don't want to queue as a tank because they're "not confident in their tanking abilities".

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

What words in the skill adviser? That thing is terrible and generally incorrect..

Irrelevant. You don't get to claim that a defintion is not supported in game when the roles are defined in the skill advisor in such an industry standard way, while simultaneously insisting our defintion of dps must not differ from zos. ZOS gives 4 roles in the skill advisor. No role (for beginners), dps, tank, and healer.

And ALL of the damage roles are loaded up with damage skills.

Because zos defines dps the same way the rest of the world does.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

But let me say this, I have not defined a single term here today

Yes. You have. Stop trying to pass of your personal interpretation of the motives behind the group finder icon as the words of Zenimax.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks?

technically we cant have fake tank either always somebody will have agro on mobs, bosses, doesnt matter if they wills tay alive or not, if they wont stay alive they are just bad at this

No, there is an explicit mention of your role with in the group finder in regards to your responsibilities to the group and actions you must take to be considered the tank. Now you can fail at it, sometimes folks do... miserably. But that's a matter of experience. But the term fake tank is a person who knows this but queues anyway for that short wait in the hopes that it's easy enough that the healer Can carry them.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks?

technically we cant have fake tank either always somebody will have agro on mobs, bosses, doesnt matter if they wills tay alive or not, if they wont stay alive they are just bad at this

No, there is an explicit mention of your role with in the group finder in regards to your responsibilities to the group and actions you must take to be considered the tank. Now you can fail at it, sometimes folks do... miserably. But that's a matter of experience. But the term fake tank is a person who knows this but queues anyway for that short wait in the hopes that it's easy enough that the healer Can carry them.

so ther is explicit mention about dealing damage as being focused on dealing daamge in group more than healer which is focused healing and protecting allies and tank which is focused on taking agro and daamge from hostile mobs

if everyone are dealing damage, even barely damage as for support roles and there cant be fake DD then everyone queueing for Damage are special privilage to do less job than other as they cant hit higher dps?

like tank is focus on his tanking job while still dealing some damage, healer is focused at his job whiel dealing a bit more daamge for debuffing enemies at once and here what I understand from your describing lies and DD doing less daamge than heler or tank but doing no anything else and he dont have to do anything else along with higher damage than tank or healer becasue he have specjal role which have privilage to do less job in group and so be carried by tank and healer doing 2 jobs at once - tanking/healing and dealing some damage

BXR_Lonestar

Fake dds are a thing.

They are definitely a thing. And they're the worst "fake" role IMO. If you get a fake healer or a fake tank, there is a decent chance you can burn the content. Fake DPS? You going to be in it for the long haul.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks?

technically we cant have fake tank either always somebody will have agro on mobs, bosses, doesnt matter if they wills tay alive or not, if they wont stay alive they are just bad at this

No, there is an explicit mention of your role with in the group finder in regards to your responsibilities to the group and actions you must take to be considered the tank. Now you can fail at it, sometimes folks do... miserably. But that's a matter of experience. But the term fake tank is a person who knows this but queues anyway for that short wait in the hopes that it's easy enough that the healer Can carry them.

so ther is explicit mention about dealing damage as being focused on dealing daamge in group more than healer which is focused healing and protecting allies and tank which is focused on taking agro and daamge from hostile mobs

if everyone are dealing damage, even barely damage as for support roles and there cant be fake DD then everyone queueing for Damage are special privilage to do less job than other as they cant hit higher dps?

like tank is focus on his tanking job while still dealing some damage, healer is focused at his job whiel dealing a bit more daamge for debuffing enemies at once and here what I understand from your describing lies and DD doing less daamge than heler or tank but doing no anything else and he dont have to do anything else along with higher damage than tank or healer becasue he have specjal role which have privilage to do less job in group and so be carried by tank and healer doing 2 jobs at once - tanking/healing and dealing some damage

What your describing is not a fake dd. There are only two possibilities of what it can really be, a bad dps or a bad person and they are two separate issues with regards in how to deal with them.

If you get a bad person then you deal with them as any other bad person. These are trolls, obtuse people, angry people, or mean people... dont be one of them yourself. Correct them and let them know you won't tolerate their bad behavior but give them a chance to amend their actions. That is how you deal with bad people but that doesn't make them fake dd.

If you get a bad dps, these are the uninformed, the inexperienced, the misinformed(for those that used skill adviser) and the slow learners. Correct them, let them know exactly where their deficiencies are and what immediate methods could be used to correct them. Assist them then and there with knowledge on how to clear content. That is how you deal with bad DPS but that doesn't make them fake DD.

If they're both bad dps and bad persons, then kick or leave and better luck next time. And that still won't make them fake DD.

Sinolai

Fake dds are a thing.

Some veteran dungeons have dps race mechianics that can be fulfilled by one support player that fills their bar with damage abilities, yet I have seen a group with 2 dds to fail them.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks?

technically we cant have fake tank either always somebody will have agro on mobs, bosses, doesnt matter if they wills tay alive or not, if they wont stay alive they are just bad at this

No, there is an explicit mention of your role with in the group finder in regards to your responsibilities to the group and actions you must take to be considered the tank. Now you can fail at it, sometimes folks do... miserably. But that's a matter of experience. But the term fake tank is a person who knows this but queues anyway for that short wait in the hopes that it's easy enough that the healer Can carry them.

so ther is explicit mention about dealing damage as being focused on dealing daamge in group more than healer which is focused healing and protecting allies and tank which is focused on taking agro and daamge from hostile mobs

if everyone are dealing damage, even barely damage as for support roles and there cant be fake DD then everyone queueing for Damage are special privilage to do less job than other as they cant hit higher dps?

like tank is focus on his tanking job while still dealing some damage, healer is focused at his job whiel dealing a bit more daamge for debuffing enemies at once and here what I understand from your describing lies and DD doing less daamge than heler or tank but doing no anything else and he dont have to do anything else along with higher damage than tank or healer becasue he have specjal role which have privilage to do less job in group and so be carried by tank and healer doing 2 jobs at once - tanking/healing and dealing some damage

What your describing is not a fake dd. There are only two possibilities of what it can really be, a bad dps or a bad person and they are two separate issues with regards in how to deal with them.

If you get a bad person then you deal with them as any other bad person. These are trolls, obtuse people, angry people, or mean people... dont be one of them yourself. Correct them and let them know you won't tolerate their bad behavior but give them a chance to amend their actions. That is how you deal with bad people but that doesn't make them fake dd.

If you get a bad dps, these are the uninformed, the inexperienced, the misinformed(for those that used skill adviser) and the slow learners. Correct them, let them know exactly where their deficiencies are and what immediate methods could be used to correct them. Assist them then and there with knowledge on how to clear content. That is how you deal with bad DPS but that doesn't make them fake DD.

If they're both bad dps and bad persons, then kick or leave and better luck next time. And that still won't make them fake DD.

so as I also decribed, roles which are not tank or healer have privilage of doing less job in dung, privilage to slack and no need to have intentions to even help for rest group mates
and Im not talking about just bad DD who want to improve

coop500

Fake dds are not a thing.

Jesus are you guys STILL going on about this?

I feel like a mod needs to close this thread down.

MorganaLaVey

iksde wrote: »

so as I also decribed, roles which are not tank or healer have privilage of doing less job in dung, privilage to slack and no need to have intentions to even help for rest group mates
and Im not talking about just bad DD who want to improve

Yes, Tanks and Healers are expected to work two jobs, DD + Healer/ Tank.
If you'r tank and u unslot your Taunt, you'r not allowed to queue as Tank anymore because you'r a Fake
but queueing as Damage Dealer is still fine.
DD's are only for poor Peolpe who cant effeort a Tank or Healer.
Its not the holy trinity of Tank + Healer + DD anymore, its the holy duality of Tank + Healer ...and some losers who need a carry thrown in.

By this Logic i just wonder wy does it say specificly Damage Dealer and not just Player or Adventureer, if everyone is it by default anyways? ...And you can UPGRADE to Tank or Healer? Its like making categories for wet Water, sweet Water and salty Water

Vevvev

Fake dds are a thing.

Jeremy wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

When a tank gets kicked from a group for doing more DPS than the DPS, and that DPS number being below 10k, you quickly learn that fake DPS are indeed a thing.

Had my healer outDPS both DPS combined in a dungeon once, and I was only throwing down Wall of Elements a few DOTs.

An inexperienced DPS could easily perform under 10k DPS without intentionally being a fake DPS. So I don't think doing under 10k DPS is a sufficient standard by which to label someone a "fake".

Read again. I said the tank got kicked by them because the tank was doing more DPS despite being a full on tank. They were malicious and evil in their hearts and how dare someone be better than them and not in the DPS role.

slt101880b14_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Fake DD's are not a thing.

A fake tank is a DD who queues as a tank to skip the line, but isn't actually a tank.

A fake healer is a DD who queues as a healer to skip the line, but it's actually a healer.

No tanks or healers are queue'ing as DPS.

There might be *bad* DPS, but that is not a "fake" DPS

This...
All of this.
I've run into more egocentric DPS then "fake".
-Running off ahead, pulling everything, leaving the group behind.
-Queues as a Tank with NO intent on being a Tank (no taunt, little resistance, low hp)
-Queues as a Healer with NO intent on healing anyone (best one I've seen is the healer going WW from the start)
To me, that's the sign of bad DPS.

Low DPS may not be adequate for your speed runs, but at least they're doing the role.

WrathOfInnos

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

People do not say this.... the game itself says this. It can't work the other way around because the player must consciously choose to change their role away from dd the first time. Therefore all players are dd until they choose to be tanks or healers. Tanks and healers can be fake but dd can not because it is the default position of all players.

Hence tanks and healers are choices but dd is not a choice only a measure. Therefore someone who tries to tanks and fails is a bad tank not a fake one. Someone who tries and fails to heal is a bad healer not a fake one. But all other failures, not already defined of tanking or of healing, is a bad dd. So no matter what, as a dd you are bad never fake.

That’s the part I disagree with. I think you’re reading too much into the fact that new characters start with the DD role selected. It’s the most common role, and the easiest to perform the basics of, so it makes sense that the devs made that default. That certainly doesn’t imply that 100% of new characters are DPS builds. By your definition every tank and healer in the game would also be classified as a legitimate DPS. I require them to at least attempt to deal damage before I would use that label.

I’d also say that every solo player does all 3 roles by default. They receive aggro and must survive it, they have to heal themself and provide their own buffs, and they deal damage to kill their enemies. There’s nothing about this experience that mandates they are a DD when it comes to group content. In general there is a preference to focus more on damage when solo because that allows completing content faster, and most quest/overland enemies are not tough enough to require a focus on tankiness or self-healing (although they’re also not tough enough to require a focus on effective damage), but that doesn’t mean they are neglecting any of the 3 roles.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

I think you miss understand some of my words. DD is not called damage dealer in the roles... just damage, just D. We add the other d for the sake of completeness with older terms.

Damage is default in the same manner that marines are all rifleman and sailors are all firefighters. You will learn these things because they are vital to learn.

You do not upgrade to tank or healer, you accept the responsibilities of tank or healer. Anytime you no longer wish to accept the responsibility of being a tank or a healer you become damage again.

In a game as relaxed of the trinity outside of vet Trials most vet dungeon content can be completed with with a PUG. Think how long it took to allow mmorpgs and the changes to the genre to get to a safe place where pugs can often pass content. If you don't have an understanding of previous games, you would never understand amount of progress gaming itself has made to allow such variety and player enterprise.

But with that progress, there are those who are blind to it, uncaring of it, sneer at it as being too easy, or simply want more rewards for less work.

You don't know how good you have it that a vet dungeon can be soloed or ran by four random guild mates regardless of their builds. It's almost obnoxious how unaware folks are to to the progress of learning to get gud. And it's sad they don't allow others the same opportunity they received.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

so as I also decribed, roles which are not tank or healer have privilage of doing less job in dung, privilage to slack and no need to have intentions to even help for rest group mates
and Im not talking about just bad DD who want to improve

Yes, Tanks and Healers are expected to work two jobs, DD + Healer/ Tank.
If you'r tank and u unslot your Taunt, you'r not allowed to queue as Tank anymore because you'r a Fake
but queueing as Damage Dealer is still fine.
DD's are only for poor Peolpe who cant effeort a Tank or Healer.
Its not the holy trinity of Tank + Healer + DD anymore, its the holy duality of Tank + Healer ...and some losers who need a carry thrown in.

By this Logic i just wonder wy does it say specificly Damage Dealer and not just Player or Adventureer, if everyone is it by default anyways? ...And you can UPGRADE to Tank or Healer? Its like making categories for wet Water, sweet Water and salty Water

ok then then I see I have played this game all time wrong
need to refresh my tank/rebuild my actual DDs and queue as DD to play this proper, I will still deal damage but low but atlest how big survivability I will have! hope we will have in team enough dps to burn dps checks before 1shots on vets ofc

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks? There is only one reason and it's clearly written in their tootips... they responsible to others. It clearly makes reference certain actions in regards to other players. That is why there are fake tanks and fake healers as they have consciously disregarded the required responsibilities if their role.

Now look at damage. There is nothing in there about their responsibility to anything other than damage which is their focus. But it doesn't say how to accomplish that because the role requires greater flexibility than the other roles. With out a mechanic that requires it... you dont need dds, they are just oil to help move the tank and healer through the dungeons bowl system faster.

In my opinion, proclaiming that tanks and healers have responsibility towards the group, while dds don't, is highly unfair, and I can't agree with such a remark. Is there someone who thinks there are no fake dds and doesn't free them of responsibility that he forces on the other 2 roles?