Are fake dds a thing?

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

What your describing in a player that sabotaged your efforts in a group setting is called troll. Not a fake dd.

In this game which does not have specialized classes, the roles of the trinity are more broadly defined in such that all others not defined as being tank or healer are dd. The quality of dd is a matter of their ability to specialize in doing damage and not be the terms of specialized classes in regards to most other MMORPGS

Once again this is the games definition not my own. DD is so broadly defined because it is always the default of all players. All players are DD until they choose to accept the roles of tank or healer. But that does not mean they are by default good DD, as quality is the sum of education, experience and guidance.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

What your describing in a player that sabotaged your efforts in a group setting is called troll. Not a fake dd.

In this game which does not have specialized classes, the roles of the trinity are more broadly defined in such that all others not defined as being tank or healer are dd. The quality of dd is a matter of their ability to specialize in doing damage and not be the terms of specialized classes in regards to most other MMORPGS

How is it not a fake dd? Doing that is even deceptive the same way queuing as a tank without a taunt. In some ways it's even more deceptive.

Like you're so deadset on a meaningless defintion that you're gonna claim that someone entering into the queue as a role with the express purpose of NOT fulfilling role isn't a fake dps. That's how dedicated you are to saying they don't exist.

Okay. Well I can't really discuss with anyone that close minded to the concept that not even an example tailormade to their conditions and a dictionary can make them concede a point.

We're obviously at an impasse. ✌

You go on believing the dps role doesn't actually exist.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

Being a troll is not a matter of roles. Someone trolling you doesn't matter what they call themselves.

Now let's talk about actual queueing. When you queue for vet or normal random you have three roles to choose from. The requirements to complete each dungeon have drastically different threshold for each role on the different difficulties. But you must make a conscious choice to switch your role to tank or healer, otherwise by default it will be dd that is highlighted. The player can not know what dungeon they are about to get, but should endeavor to prepare for that content. However a player can not be sure they can complete content until they complete content. So what you are calling fake is better described as incompetent or bad.

Semantics matter, words have meaning. You do nothing for the narrative in calling bad players fake. You do not improve them one bit. It is merely a term to which you justify your abandonment of them. So let's not pull punches, this thread has been nothing but elitism of the community against the community and self congratulatory pats on the backs by the oh so "good" players. And thats fine too a degree. But nothing about this poll makes the community better only highlights its failings.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Being a troll is not a matter of roles. Someone trolling you doesn't matter what they call themselves.

It is when under your defintion. They are doing damage so they are a DD.

Semantics matter, words have meaning.

You don't get to argue this when you ignore the actual definition of your term in an actual dictionary and industry wide standards to substitute it for a factually meaningless definition. And yes, factually. Your defintion is literally so broad that the role does not exist.

I am not the one trying to redefine the term, you are.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

. So let's not pull punches, this thread has been nothing but elitism of the community against the community and self congratulatory pats on the backs by the oh so "good" players. And thats fine too a degree. But nothing about this poll makes the community better only highlights its failings.

No. It's been people arguing against common sense defintions to "stick it" to the "elitists."

It's now elitism to hold dps to the exact same floor level standard as tanks and healers. "Uses skills". Okay.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

Have you ever tried to talk to these "fake dd" by any chance? I've played since launch and I can count the number of real trollish players I met on my fingers and toes still.

DD does exist, I did not define it, I can not change its definition, nor can you. DD is anyone not tank or healer. Tank is an active role, you must be able to tank to be a tank. Healer is a reactive role, you must react to the demands of healing to be a healer. But DD is not active or reactive, it is default. DD is a damage dealer, is does not define the length or burst, direct or indirect. It is not a class in this game or even a predefined specialization. All folks not specifically tank or healer are dd the quality of which is based upon the individuals ability to use in game mechanics to deal damage.

If the quality of DD are lacking then it the individual that is not best utilizing the games mechanics out of ignorance or inexperience.

People do not queue to fail, they fail because they do not know how to succeed.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Have you ever tried to talk to these "fake dd" by any chance? I've played since launch and I can count the number of real trollish players I met on my fingers and toes still.

Yes. I have.

You ask why they are light attacking only you get one of the following responses

1. It's just a game, chill.
2. I'm just trying to get x item.
3. *ignored*
4. I don't feel like doing much today for x reason.

What I have never gotten back as a response is "What's a skill?!?!?!"

They are even given a dps skill when they first level up automatically. Every single one of them as least one dps skill on their bar.

And their build helper tells them to use them when it defines their role for them with colorful flavor text.

"Anyone not a tank" is not a defintion of what constitutes a dps. It's something you made up and it's awful defintion practice.

There is a dictionary entry for dps. And an industry wide standard. And you're ignoring it for your own made up defintion.

Nowhere will you see dps defined as "the guy not tanking" because that's attempting to define something by what it is NOT, not what it is. Your other defintion earlier of anyone doing damage would mean the role doesn't exist.

Neither of these are, factually, reasonable defintions by the rules of defining things. That's not my opinion. That's a fact. Ask any expert.

You define things by what they are, not what they are not. And they must be specific enough that they don't include things that don't fall under that definition.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

Eso is not the industry standard in mmorpgs, I know I been playing them since everquest when you had real class defined roles. Your using words and you have no idea how your butchering them. I have not defined anything only relayed the information provided by the mechanics of THIS GAME.

If we listened to you, it would sounds as if there are groups of people joining dungeons with the intentions of not participating in the group effort. Is this a common thing you experience? you seem to have might terrible luck. But that just makes them bad people not "fake DD". However I can't really think of the last time this has happened to myself and I do vet dailies almost ever day on 6+ characters. I play on the ps4 and I participate in all three roles depending on character and I have not seen this plague of trolls.

What I have seen is people who don't understand dungeon mechanics they get stuck in. Or what sets are actually best. Or what skills to use and when. Or hell, last year I saw a person who was terrible at roll dodging. He still thanks me for having spent thirty minutes with him helping him learn. And I'm not trying to toot my horn but I've helped hundreds of players become just a little better!

No there is no fake DD but their are bad players and the worse players are the truly selfish and spiteful ones that sneer at others for their supposed inability to perform up to par with others.

Lady_Galadhiel

Fake dds are a thing.

I think a good solution would be if not everyone would attempt playing a dd and actually try out other roles as well.
When I started playing I also tried to be a dd,but I saw myself not enjoying it much and being bad at it so I did go for healer.
And since then I play as healer and did never regret it.

I belive some folks out there would be doing much better being healers or tanks,but they never find it out because their mind is just focused and wanting to be a dd no matter if they are good or bad at it so they refuse to try out other roles.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Eso is not the industry standard in mmorpgs, I know I been playing them since everquest when you had real class defined roles. Your using words and you have no idea how your butchering them. I have not defined anything only relayed the information provided by the mechanics of THIS GAME.

Yes. You have. Nowhere in the mechanics does it state that the roles are defined in the queue. And in fact, role advice is given and defined in the ingame build helper. And it doesn't state any of the things you stated.

You're trying to define tanks and healers by industry standard terms, even though the queue finder doesn't tell them to taunt nor tell healers to heal. But not holding dps up to that same standard.

And the reason is obvious. You don't like what you consider to be elitism and toxic behavior. So you want to give a pass to fake dps. And assume the worst of anyone who says fake dps exists.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

If we listened to you, it would sounds as if there are groups of people joining dungeons with the intentions of not participating in the group effort.

Yes. There are plenty of people who queue into all 3 roles with no intention of being a team player. It's just dps are less common selected for this and are given a pass on it. Vast majority of dps use damage skills. Because they are actually trying. And I actually find it not only incorrect but very disrespectful to them that you discredit their efforts by lumping them in with people who are blatantly not trying.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

If you are not queued as a tank or healer, what are you queued as? What is the default setting in the dungeon finder for a new player? When I say DD is default it is because DD will always be default unless the programmers were to switch the default setting to tank or healer. Since it is the default, then all players are DD until they choose not to be.

That definition exist outside of their quality of being a DD. It is simply how the game is written that I am relaying to you in words.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

If you are not queued as a tank or healer, what are you queued as? What is the default setting in the dungeon finder for a new player? When I say DD is default it is because DD will always be default unless the programmers were to switch the default setting to tank or healer. Since it is the default, then all players are DD until they choose not to be.

That definition exist outside of their quality of being a DD. It is simply how the game is written that I am relaying to you in words.

Something being the default setting in group finder does not define the class. Group finder is a completely optional part of the game that many players don't even use. DPS is by FAR the most popular settings and most UI will default to the most common selection for users.

You're trying to claim a convenience setting in optional content is how you define a word. And it's nonsense.

There is an industry wide defintion for dps. And what you stated is not it. It's something you made up. The developers never told you to define it that way and don't use it that way themselves. They use the normal meaning IN-GAME.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

Well let's look at what these tool tips are and how you believe I'm defining them.

Tank: absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

Tanks are clearly an active role, you must choose to be a tank. I have stated this.

Healer: heals and protects the group, keeping them alive throughout the battle.

Healers are clearly a mostly reactive role, as you cant heal unless damage has occurred. I have stated this.

Damage: focuses on dealing damage against enemies that pose a threat.

Hmm... that is very ambiguous, isn't it? Maybe because by default anyone can focus on doing damage to enemies that pose a threat. It does not say fast damage, burst damage, dot damage or any other urban dictionary terms. It simply says dealing damage. This is why it is default and all folks are DD until they choose to specialize as a tank or healer.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

To be a DPS you have to do more than just do damage though. You have to focus on doing damage. I get where you're coming from, and I mostly agree with what you are saying. But I believe when a player signs up for a DPS role but has no intention of actually focusing on doing damage, but instead they spend their time healing or tanking, I think those can qualify as fake DPS under any pretext. They're very rare, but I have seen them.

Where does it say that? What book of rules are you reading from? And is this knowledge shared with all players? You do not have a right to add extra definitions to the already defined terms.

so what you mean the best option is to go for dung with 4x tank becasue everyone anyway will deal some damage and they wont be glass cannon with need to be aware of red fire cirlces etc, with higher survivability without need to healer if build right
it will be much more efficient to have 4 tank with low dps in group than 2-3 low(/bad) dps without survivability, being glass cannon which can die just easy and we can cleary say we will have group with 4 tanks and 4 DD's at once tbh, so 2 in 1!

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Well let's look at what these tool tips are and how you believe I'm defining them.

Tank: absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

Tanks are clearly an active role, you must choose to be a tank. I have stated this.

Healer: heals and protects the group, keeping them alive throughout the battle.

Healers are clearly a mostly reactive role, as you cant heal unless damage has occurred. I have stated this.

Damage: focuses on dealing damage against enemies that pose a threat.

Hmm... that is very ambiguous, isn't it? Maybe because by default anyone can focus on doing damage to enemies that pose a threat. It does not say fast damage, burst damage, dot damage or any other urban dictionary terms. It simply says dealing damage. This is why it is default and all folks are DD until they choose to specialize as a tank or healer.

FOCUSES on dealing damage. And in the build helper it DOES tell them to user their skills to be a DD.

It's not "anyone who does damage" but the players who's builds are FOCUSED on it.

Which means the same thing as everywhere else.

Not all those defintions were from Urban Dictionary. One of them was from Dictionary.com, an actual dictionary that is partnered with Oxford English Dictionary.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

Blood_again wrote: »

Well, it depends on people expectation I think.

If I expect tank to have taunt and use it sometimes, then tank without it is fake for me.
But there could be a tank who use taunt but lose it. Who dies from boss. Who spreads the stack instead of getting it together. It is just bad, unexperienced tank. Not fake.

Same for heal. Fake has no healing abilities or doesn't use it.
Really, was surprised this week. Met a heal stamden with bow, who fairly healed the group He wasn't fake if you ask me.

As for dd, honestly, I don't have any expectations there if I go PUG. So I don't think dd can be fake.
Bad dd can block the progress in some dungeons like a bad tank or heal either. They can do poor dps, ignore the mechanics, die all the time, don't res others. It shows them unexperienced, but not fakes.
I think dd can be fake only if you keep the gate like "anybody less 30k dps is not dd". Then dd with 25k will be fake for you.

if it doesnt matter how low dps can have such DD then why not having tank in his place with same dps but with much higher survivability?

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

DD is not a choice, you show me the player that had tank or healer pre-selected at character creation. You are seeking to add your own definition unto an already defined default. How can my definition be wrong? I did not define it, the game did (which the game equates dd as all not being a tank or healer). But you addition is wrong because it's your addition. There is nothing that defines dd, all are dd until they choose not to be. You have no right to say otherwise. Therefore dd can not be fake only bad.

yes DD is a choice, try go for literally any vet dlc dung with tank instead DDs they still deal some damage so as you say they are DD's but witch very high survi,, go on and tell me how fine you get through dung with tank DDs I will be waiting

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Meanwhile in the actual dictionary.com

DPM [sic] is an acronym that means damage per second in multiplayer online gaming. It's used both as a noun (a weapon type, class, or a character capable of massive damage) and as an adjective to describe a weapon's capability.

Or Cyber Defintions.

DPS is also used to refer to certain classes of character that are picked for their ability to destroy and kill

Urban Dictionary

Used in MMORPGs, DPS stands for Damage Per Second, and has two meanings. 1) As an adjective, it describes how much damage a weapon or spell does each second. 2) As a noun, it refers to a character class or specialization which focuses on doing a lot of damage quickly, or in bursts.

Etc. DPS are NOT literally anyone that does damage. No game is gonna leave their tanks and healers completely helpless. Doesn't make them dps classes.

I could stand afk and let something that autoattack for me, intentionally leeching and sabotaging your run, and by your defintion I wouldn't be a fake dps. Meanwhile in this game the kick option is given specifically so we can police that kind of abusive behavior because it is NOT being a dps. In other games they may even go so far as to ban your account for it.

When your defintion is so broad it has no meaning. It's not a legitimate defintion. That's how defintions work.

A DPS is a player character who uses primarily damage skills in order to secure kills. That is a dps. While all players can do damage, not all players are dps. Some are tanks. Some are healers. Some are hybrids. Some are roleplayers and don't bother being setup appropriately for any group content.

Only in this game are these controversial statements.

just go for sorc with pets and go afk and your pets will make you enough to be DD

Blood_again

Fake dds are not a thing.

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

I think a good solution would be if not everyone would attempt playing a dd and actually try out other roles as well.
When I started playing I also tried to be a dd,but I saw myself not enjoying it much and being bad at it so I did go for healer.
And since then I play as healer and did never regret it.

I belive some folks out there would be doing much better being healers or tanks,but they never find it out because their mind is just focused and wanting to be a dd no matter if they are good or bad at it so they refuse to try out other roles.

I agree and believe that trying all the roles in game would help to find something new and good to people who try to learn the game aspects.
Really, tanking and healing experience allows to fulfill any role better.

But actually I would prefer seeing a light-attacker no-skill-user dd in pug group, than the same kind tank or heal. Independently of my role.
If somebody tried a new role to learn it, I would be glad and ready to help. If they tried it to do the same "I don't give a thing what's happening" as before, that would be a problem the group has to solve again.

So your solution is great for those who want to learn. Not for all unfortunately.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Eso is not the industry standard in mmorpgs, .

and yet ESO have harder content like other MMOs where you have DPS check, where you need to have higher dps with which you will never acheive on tank

take a look at simple vateshran arena where people was whining after release they cant complete this on their tanks because of dps checks in it, on last boss
if thats false then plase make a vidoe completing this arena or harder vet dungeouns with only tanks with support sets and passing dps checks

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Well let's look at what these tool tips are and how you believe I'm defining them.

Tank: absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

Tanks are clearly an active role, you must choose to be a tank. I have stated this.

Healer: heals and protects the group, keeping them alive throughout the battle.

Healers are clearly a mostly reactive role, as you cant heal unless damage has occurred. I have stated this.

Damage: focuses on dealing damage against enemies that pose a threat.

Hmm... that is very ambiguous, isn't it? Maybe because by default anyone can focus on doing damage to enemies that pose a threat. It does not say fast damage, burst damage, dot damage or any other urban dictionary terms. It simply says dealing damage. This is why it is default and all folks are DD until they choose to specialize as a tank or healer.

FOCUSES on dealing damage. And in the build helper it DOES tell them to user their skills to be a DD.

It's not "anyone who does damage" but the players who's builds are FOCUSED on it.

Which means the same thing as everywhere else.

Not all those defintions were from Urban Dictionary. One of them was from Dictionary.com, an actual dictionary that is partnered with Oxford English Dictionary.

Focuses does not tell them how to but their primary concern is DPS, this does not mean they can't have secondary concerns or secondary actions. For example, you cant do dps if you die in fire, you shouldn't do does to the boss when it heals them or in an add phase.

Focuses does not define the amount or speed of damage only that your interest by default is doing damage required to complete content as required by the game and constraints of the battle.

If you have people not participating this is not a fake dd, as dd is purposely ambiguous, it's just a trollish player. I never met a light attack only player in a vet dungeon. Surely you jest.

As for build helper? You mean skill adviser? Maybe it's a pc thing, skill adviser only recommends skills for preset builds, not how or when to use them or what gear to wear to maximize them. It's relatively useless and not worth speaking of. DD aren't bad because of not listening to skill advisors, they'd probably be worse off if they did.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Well let's look at what these tool tips are and how you believe I'm defining them.

Tank: absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

Tanks are clearly an active role, you must choose to be a tank. I have stated this.

Healer: heals and protects the group, keeping them alive throughout the battle.

Healers are clearly a mostly reactive role, as you cant heal unless damage has occurred. I have stated this.

Damage: focuses on dealing damage against enemies that pose a threat.

Hmm... that is very ambiguous, isn't it? Maybe because by default anyone can focus on doing damage to enemies that pose a threat. It does not say fast damage, burst damage, dot damage or any other urban dictionary terms. It simply says dealing damage. This is why it is default and all folks are DD until they choose to specialize as a tank or healer.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Focuses does not tell them how to but their primary concern is DPS, this does not mean they can't have secondary concerns or secondary actions. For example, you cant do dps if you die in fire, you shouldn't do does to the boss when it heals them or in an add phase.

Focuses does not define the amount or speed of damage only that your interest by default is doing damage required to complete content as required by the game and constraints of the battle.

If you have people not participating this is not a fake dd, as dd is purposely ambiguous, it's just a trollish player. I never met a light attack only player in a vet dungeon. Surely you jest.

As for build helper? You mean skill adviser? Maybe it's a pc thing, skill adviser only recommends skills for preset builds, not how or when to use them or what gear to wear to maximize them. It's relatively useless and not worth speaking of. DD aren't bad because of not listening to skill advisors, they'd probably be worse off if they did.

have you tried to burst down flesh atronach in vet ICP with dps high as tank before they got enrage and 1shot everyone?
it has been nerfed anyway very much in time so I challenge you to kill this flesh atronach in vet ICP before enrage with total group dps of 10k - 5k per DD role and tank should be focused by keeping agro and healer with just healing team

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Well let's look at what these tool tips are and how you believe I'm defining them.

Tank: absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

Tanks are clearly an active role, you must choose to be a tank. I have stated this.

Healer: heals and protects the group, keeping them alive throughout the battle.

Healers are clearly a mostly reactive role, as you cant heal unless damage has occurred. I have stated this.

Damage: focuses on dealing damage against enemies that pose a threat.

Hmm... that is very ambiguous, isn't it? Maybe because by default anyone can focus on doing damage to enemies that pose a threat. It does not say fast damage, burst damage, dot damage or any other urban dictionary terms. It simply says dealing damage. This is why it is default and all folks are DD until they choose to specialize as a tank or healer.

FOCUSES on dealing damage. And in the build helper it DOES tell them to user their skills to be a DD.

It's not "anyone who does damage" but the players who's builds are FOCUSED on it.

Which means the same thing as everywhere else.

Not all those defintions were from Urban Dictionary. One of them was from Dictionary.com, an actual dictionary that is partnered with Oxford English Dictionary.

Focuses does not tell them how to but their primary concern is DPS, l

Nope. Because the group finder is NOT intended to define roles. You're the only person claiming it does.

The build helper absolutely tells them to use skills.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

To be a DPS you have to do more than just do damage though. You have to focus on doing damage. I get where you're coming from, and I mostly agree with what you are saying. But I believe when a player signs up for a DPS role but has no intention of actually focusing on doing damage, but instead they spend their time healing or tanking, I think those can qualify as fake DPS under any pretext. They're very rare, but I have seen them.

Where does it say that? What book of rules are you reading from? And is this knowledge shared with all players? You do not have a right to add extra definitions to the already defined terms.

so what you mean the best option is to go for dung with 4x tank becasue everyone anyway will deal some damage and they wont be glass cannon with need to be aware of red fire cirlces etc, with higher survivability without need to healer if build right
it will be much more efficient to have 4 tank with low dps in group than 2-3 low(/bad) dps without survivability, being glass cannon which can die just easy and we can cleary say we will have group with 4 tanks and 4 DD's at once tbh, so 2 in 1!

It's rude to put words into people's mouths, please don't put them into mine. I dont care what sets you use or skills, so long as you can legitimately clear content in a reasononably timely manner. But of the roles only tank and healer can be defined as fake by not living up to their roles. The dd role is purposely undefined. If 4 tanky characters clear a dungeon... then they did it right even if it took a little extra time. Though I don't believe that the same tanky characters can Clear every vet dungeon because the mechanics won't allow it. So they are better off queueing as tanks and leading other groups through dungeons.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

I never met a light attack only player in a vet dungeon. Surely you jest.

And no, I don't. I have watched several. One even got ME kicked from a group.

The tank did not taunt the boss but attacked mobs first. The boss one shot me, and then he taunted it. I sat there and watched as the dps ONLY light attacked. The healer did not rez me and neither did the dps. The fight took a very long time. And then we were both kicked for lack of dps, even though I had been dead the entire time.

After that I actually started watching out for it many groups and was surprised at the number of people doing this. I asked some of them and not ONCE did I hear the response "what's a skill?"

They all knew exactly what they were doing. Even single last one. When I catch it now, it's an instant vote kick from me.

I don't kick bad dps but I kick fakes.

iksde

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

To be a DPS you have to do more than just do damage though. You have to focus on doing damage. I get where you're coming from, and I mostly agree with what you are saying. But I believe when a player signs up for a DPS role but has no intention of actually focusing on doing damage, but instead they spend their time healing or tanking, I think those can qualify as fake DPS under any pretext. They're very rare, but I have seen them.

Where does it say that? What book of rules are you reading from? And is this knowledge shared with all players? You do not have a right to add extra definitions to the already defined terms.

so what you mean the best option is to go for dung with 4x tank becasue everyone anyway will deal some damage and they wont be glass cannon with need to be aware of red fire cirlces etc, with higher survivability without need to healer if build right
it will be much more efficient to have 4 tank with low dps in group than 2-3 low(/bad) dps without survivability, being glass cannon which can die just easy and we can cleary say we will have group with 4 tanks and 4 DD's at once tbh, so 2 in 1!

It's rude to put words into people's mouths, please don't put them into mine. I dont care what sets you use or skills, so long as you can legitimately clear content in a reasononably timely manner. But of the roles only tank and healer can be defined as fake by not living up to their roles. The dd role is purposely undefined. If 4 tanky characters clear a dungeon... then they did it right even if it took a little extra time. Though I don't believe that the same tanky characters can Clear every vet dungeon because the mechanics won't allow it. So they are better off queueing as tanks and leading other groups through dungeons.

no no I didnt mean to put word in your mounts, I just stated what I understand from you, sorry then if this looked like I put words on your mount

but still anyway as DD role is not definted as everyon deal daamge doing any role then as I said - if we are going to have very low dps in group then it is much better to go with 4 tanks in group and have atleast survivability while keeping low dps in group if you dont care about dps checks before 1shot mechanics in harder content

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

You one time at band camp surely breaks my hearts with its ancedotal-ness. I'd would personally require the combat logs before believing such a story as eso is the one game where you should not trust your eyes, many animations are deliberately cancalled.

However I've had plenty of rare bad dungeon groups, or folks that immediate dropped if it was a hard dungeon. In your instance, I likely wouldn't have aired for them to kick me. But for myself, these are not the norm. I complete hundreds of dungeons a week and the number of issues can be counted on one hand.

coop500

Fake dds are not a thing.

GreenHere wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Yes, they are, but not what is being represented here IMO.

Fake implies deception, which is intent. If they intend to deceive their team mates, then yes, fake is the word. If theyre just bad but their intent sincere, then its not really deception. They're just not good at their role.

If they're doing less damage than a true support role, they're not good at their role. That much is blatantly obvious, but it doesnt mean their intent was to deceive.

Nailed it.

Personally I'm tired of trying to defend new/struggling/bad players to others who seemingly just don't give a crap about those folks. There are way too many veteran players ragging on DDs who don't meet their standards nowadays, though. It's thoroughly uncool, and it actively puts off newcomers to read what some of y'all think about them when they make the mistake of visiting the forums.

I play all roles, and believe me, I get it. Sub-par DDs are out there, and they're a burden; no doubt.

But just because some damage dealer is bad at dealing damage doesn't mean they should be lumped into the same pool as players that lie their way into a dungeon to cut in line with no intention whatsoever to do the job they signed up for. Those are fundamentally different things, and I'm blown away at how many people cannot or will not grasp that.

Agree wholeheartedly!

Plus a GOOD healer can dish out a lot of damage so it's not fair to make a new player or even inexperienced to be up to that standard right away.

ESO doesn't teach you much, you HAVE to research and most people don't, cause most games (singleplayer) don't require you to and it's actually discouraged.

I personally have given up playing as DPS in anything beyond normal dungeons, cause I'm just not good at it for some reason. Not everyone can pull good numbers, no matter what people on the forums want you to believe.

I stick with support roles, but for new players, being a support role is extra responsibility and seems scary, plus DD is the default role the game puts you in, but is easily the most demanding and hardest to master.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You one time at band camp surely breaks my hearts with its ancedotal-ness. I'd would personally require the combat logs before believing such a story as eso is the one game where you should not trust your eyes, many animations are deliberately cancalled.

However I've had plenty of rare bad dungeon groups, or folks that immediate dropped if it was a hard dungeon. In your instance, I likely wouldn't have aired for them to kick me. But for myself, these are not the norm. I complete hundreds of dungeons a week and the number of issues can be counted on one hand.

Yeah sure. It's been told by several people. But you won't believe it because it doesn't suit your personal argument that there is no such thing as a fake dps. And everyone who encounters them is elitist.

Just like the literal dictionary definition don't count even though "words matter."

coop500

Fake dds are not a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Being a troll is not a matter of roles. Someone trolling you doesn't matter what they call themselves.

Now let's talk about actual queueing. When you queue for vet or normal random you have three roles to choose from. The requirements to complete each dungeon have drastically different threshold for each role on the different difficulties. But you must make a conscious choice to switch your role to tank or healer, otherwise by default it will be dd that is highlighted. The player can not know what dungeon they are about to get, but should endeavor to prepare for that content. However a player can not be sure they can complete content until they complete content. So what you are calling fake is better described as incompetent or bad.

Semantics matter, words have meaning. You do nothing for the narrative in calling bad players fake. You do not improve them one bit. It is merely a term to which you justify your abandonment of them. So let's not pull punches, this thread has been nothing but elitism of the community against the community and self congratulatory pats on the backs by the oh so "good" players. And thats fine too a degree. But nothing about this poll makes the community better only highlights its failings.

Nailed this whole thread with that last part. (And everything else you said)

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Fake dd can not exist, even a tank or healer queueing as dd, for some reason, is not a fake dd. Damage dealer can not be fake... only bad. Hence there is a slide of with for dd. On one side you have new players or people who don't understand mechanics. Then the opposite side is players that know mechanics, maximize builds and practice rotations. Most players will be in-between those two extremes in a bell curve.

Anyone claiming fake dd exist likely do so from a arrogance mentality. Maybe tooting their own horn while sneering at others? But we all started somewhere so try not to disparage those that are ignorant to the game. I occasionally still find people that don't understand the basis of sets, or why to use food.

yeah double standers, literally nobody can be fake dd because literally every role have atleast single skill dealing damage

going this way also also nobody can be fake tank tbh....you dont need to taunt mobs, just outdps everyone and you will have agro on you so enough is to be top dps in group and easily you are tank at once while being DD

and so we can also go a bit for healer literally everyone can slot any healing skill which doesnt requires resto staff for this and for most content just dont stand in red and you dont need heals from healer

You conflate my answer about one of the three roles with the other two roles to which my answer has nothing to do with. Putting words into my mouth? That is the definition of strawmanning the argument.

Fake dps can not exist because everyone is essentially dps before they take upon any role. Where tanks and healers choose to take on extra roles, anyone who doesn't not tank or heal is dds. Therefore there can not be a fake dd because everyone is at start a dd regardless of how good they are at putting dps in the game.

Fake healers and Fake tanks can exist because their roles are voluntary choices away from the base of dd. But if you are not a tank or a healer then by default you are a dd. The quality if dd is directly tied the the player's ability to learn summed with the community's ability to teach.

To be a DPS you have to do more than just do damage though. You have to focus on doing damage. I get where you're coming from, and I mostly agree with what you are saying. But I believe when a player signs up for a DPS role but has no intention of actually focusing on doing damage, but instead they spend their time healing or tanking, I think those can qualify as fake DPS under any pretext. They're very rare, but I have seen them.

Where does it say that? What book of rules are you reading from? And is this knowledge shared with all players? You do not have a right to add extra definitions to the already defined terms.

so what you mean the best option is to go for dung with 4x tank becasue everyone anyway will deal some damage and they wont be glass cannon with need to be aware of red fire cirlces etc, with higher survivability without need to healer if build right
it will be much more efficient to have 4 tank with low dps in group than 2-3 low(/bad) dps without survivability, being glass cannon which can die just easy and we can cleary say we will have group with 4 tanks and 4 DD's at once tbh, so 2 in 1!

It's rude to put words into people's mouths, please don't put them into mine. I dont care what sets you use or skills, so long as you can legitimately clear content in a reasononably timely manner. But of the roles only tank and healer can be defined as fake by not living up to their roles. The dd role is purposely undefined. If 4 tanky characters clear a dungeon... then they did it right even if it took a little extra time. Though I don't believe that the same tanky characters can Clear every vet dungeon because the mechanics won't allow it. So they are better off queueing as tanks and leading other groups through dungeons.

no no I didnt mean to put word in your mounts, I just stated what I understand from you, sorry then if this looked like I put words on your mount

but still anyway as DD role is not definted as everyon deal daamge doing any role then as I said - if we are going to have very low dps in group then it is much better to go with 4 tanks in group and have atleast survivability while keeping low dps in group if you dont care about dps checks before 1shot mechanics in harder content

That one shot is what I'm talking about, there are a multitude of different boss battles, dps check fights and kill mechanics. This doesn't imply they aren't DD only they aren't Dpsing enough for the content they are attempting and that they need to change or improve.

The abilities of a player are a result of learning and practice. Its why difficulty ramps upward in games. There is no deception in being bad or on the bottom of dps and we all know no one is ever going to complain about the content that is you were good enough to complete.

Therefore the term fake dd is in fact simply a form negative bias, people don't remember folks that do their jobs, but they do remember the one time you fail. That is why fake dd is such a destructive term because it has a separate entity of the meanings of fake tank and fake healer.