Are fake dds a thing?

preevious

Fake dds are not a thing.

Of course they aren't ! What would be the point of faking a DD role? Benefitting from a longer queue?

Low DPS DD are just bad.
Fake tanks and heals are dishonnest AND bad. (especially you, fake tank who reads this)

Here lies the difference.

amm7sb14_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

Goregrinder wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I assume by "fake DD" it is merely suggesting someone's DPS does not measure up to their standards. To which everyone will have a different standard.

I can only say that during my few months here and using the GF I have seen some damage dealers that were on the lower side of the spectrum. I have never seen such a disparity between good DPS and the lower end as I have in ESO.

I wonder why this is the case as it is not due to the skill level of the player unless somehow ESO has attacked the worst players ever. I seriously doubt that is the case.

I seriously think it is the weaving / animation cancelling system. Everything requires such precise time via button mashing, and that is not how everyone plays.

I know even me it took me a long time to realize that the weaving was even necessary.

Well if someone wants to get into the NBA, but they are someone who just doesn't play Basketball the way the NBA requires you to...how do they get into the NBA? The NBA requires you to be able to dribble, shoot 3 pointers, block shots, guard the offense, which is a lot of quick movements, quick sprinting, precise eye-hand coordination, fast reactions...what if someone doesn't quite have those things, how do they get to the top like Lebron did?

You're first mistake is comparing a game done for recreation and leisure (ESO) to that of the top of the top performers of the top professional league of an athletic competitive sport that takes elite levels of physical talent to compete in.

Your second mistake is assuming that every player on the NBA court brings the same skill set. Not every player is a dribbler. Not every player shoots 3 pointers. Not every player blocks shots, or plays defense. There are elite level players with various skill sets that they bring.

Shaquille O'Neal was not a dribbler nor a 3 point shooter. He is one of the greatest to ever play the game. Kahwi Leonard is an elite level defender, but not as strong offensively. Ben Simmons is not a great shooter, he is able to make plays and score points in other ways. John Stockton wasn't much of a scorer, but is an all time great because of his passing abilities. Some teams have been able to succeed and even win championships (multiples, even) without premiere centers in the lineup. Some teams have even won championships without a single elite level superstar anywhere on their roster.

The comparison to professional sports when talking about a video game is a faulty argument for many reasons. I have seen the argument used to justify meta sets, but professional sports teams - including championship winning teams - do not all share the same team makeup. Team composition in professional sports is very different from team to team because each individual players brings there own strengths and weaknesses and skillsets.

Now it's being used to justify perfect parses and rotations, and it's still a faulty argument, because even the greatest of the great all time players don't all possess the same skillsets. Not every elite player is skilled in all of the same areas.

So holding video game players to the standard of elite level professional athletes is faulty from the get go.

Never mind the fact that those are elite level talents playing in the highest level of competitive professional sports, and Elder Scrolls Online is a video game played for leisure, recreation, and entertainment.

El_Borracho

Fake dds are a thing.

From the perspective of a player who frequently tanks and DDs in vet dungeons:

• If the group is struggling to clear adds, they are fake DDs
  
• If the DDs keep dying on average final boss fights (i.e. City of Ash 2, Selene's Web), despite the presence of a real tank and healer, they are fake DDs
  
• If a DD runs ahead of the group, aggros the boss, uses all PVP skills, dies, then blames the tank, they are a fake DD.
  
• If a DD queues as a healer, doesn't heal, and dies frequently, they are a fake DD. In fact, the fake DD is almost ALWAYS a player that queues as a healer

The tank can see who is doing damage and who is not, who is trying and who is not, and who is obeying mechanics. You don't have to hit 90K+. But you also shouldn't be bow spamming, heavy attacking without skills, or hitting executes when the boss is at 80%.

hizium

Fake dds are not a thing.

I've never encontered a fake DD, just a lot of bad/learning DDs. But since I'm a bad/learning tank and also healer, that's fine.

The thing is: since OP didn't specified what a fake DD is, I can simply imagine that it means a tank or healer queueing as a DD. I can't see the benefits for anyone doing that because it means longer queue times.

So the basic answer: yes, maybe there would be a person doing this for trolling other players, but its impropable. All the other DDs that just don't do damage are casual or newbie and THEY HAVE THE RIGHT to be at a low level of performance. If you don't like it, don't join random queues, because it will happen A LOT.

Parasaurolophus

Fake dds are a thing.

Aneway, in a week those people who cannot complete normal dungeons with good dps will have tank companions. I hope these topics disappear soon.

WrathOfInnos

Fake dds are a thing.

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

I think everyone would agree that these two statements are nonsense. DPS shouldn’t be considered any different. There are player builds that do not meet the requirements of any of the 3 roles.

We’ve all seen them, builds like 7 heavy armor “DPS” with sword and shield, no second weapon, and just left clicking their way to victory (luckily not stealing taunt), no spammables or DoTs, no full sets, random or no enchants. I’m not saying we need to give them a hard time, or kick them from the normal dungeon. Just finish the content and move on, it’s probably viable for most quests. They’re probably new, coming from Skyrim, and will get better, but calling that build a DPS because it’s not a tank or healer is simply not accurate.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

I've seen DDs basically just light attack only and almost never (or actually) never use skills.

My 88 year old grandma doesn't play video games. But very rarely she'll entertain my baby cousin with a street fighter match. When she does, she button mashes. She doesn't understand video games, but she understands the very simple concept that hitting more buttons means more damage.

You telling me these people actually are trying when they aren't using skills and can't even meet the damage of a fully specialized high health armor main tank?

Nah, B. That's capp

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.



Like the humor in this image is how obvious his fake hair and mustache are. It's not intended to deceive you into thinking it's real hair. It's the opposite.

Fraud is ALWAYS deceptive. Fake is usually deceptive but not always. If something merely resembles the real thing but is not the real thing, even if it's not done to deceive, it can be considered fake.

Jeremy

Fake dds are a thing.

BrownChicken wrote: »

Aneway, in a week those people who cannot complete normal dungeons with good dps will have tank companions. I hope these topics disappear soon.

I doubt it. My companion , even fully leveled with vigorous gear, couldn't live through world boss fights, which are probably the equivalent of normal dungeon boss encounters. So my sense of it is they aren't going to enable people to solo anything they couldn't already solo. But I could be wrong.

Jeremy

Fake dds are a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

Because a bad dps is putting a reasonable amount of effort in, but failing at it. A fake dps is not.

Some people have unreasonable standards about what they consider "putting in the effort," and label a lot of bad dds as fakes. And ofc what one considers reasonable varies from person to person.

But someone who is only light attacking the entire dungeon, or just queued into the role on their main tank for the lols is obviously not making a sincere effort. And that's different from being merely bad.

The fake dds in other words are ones people don't believe are trying hard enough even if they aren't lying about their role and intended gameplay.

Jeremy

Fake dds are a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

Because a bad dps is putting a reasonable amount of effort in, but failing at it. A fake dps is not.

Some people have unreasonable standards about what they consider "putting in the effort," and label a lot of bad dds as fakes. And ofc what one considers reasonable varies from person to person.

But someone who is only light attacking the entire dungeon, or just queued into the role on their main tank for the lols is obviously not making a sincere effort. And that's different from being merely bad.

The fake dds in other words are ones people don't believe are trying hard enough even if they aren't lying about their role and intended gameplay.

Wouldn't a better word for a DPS who isn't putting any effort in be a Lazy DPS?

sevomd69

Fake dds are a thing.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I would say yes...

I have played with DDs who use sword n' board with 30k health and like 4-5k DPS...
I don't think they know they could've just skipped the line if they qued as Tank instead and put pierce on...

Or...maybe they don’t want aggro... bc they can’t really tank either...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Fake dds are not a thing.

Jeremy wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This debate is bordering on silly, but fake DDs arent a thing. Bad DDs are everywhere.

Agreed.

It's a silly and pointless debate. You just have two sides talking past one another based on conflicted ideas about what it means to be a "fake DPS".

Bingo!

jaws343

Fake dds are not a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

Because a bad dps is putting a reasonable amount of effort in, but failing at it. A fake dps is not.

Some people have unreasonable standards about what they consider "putting in the effort," and label a lot of bad dds as fakes. And ofc what one considers reasonable varies from person to person.

But someone who is only light attacking the entire dungeon, or just queued into the role on their main tank for the lols is obviously not making a sincere effort. And that's different from being merely bad.

The fake dds in other words are ones people don't believe are trying hard enough even if they aren't lying about their role and intended gameplay.

Trying hard enough...

That's the problem here. Fake has only ever been used to describe roles in the description of DPS who queue as Tanks and Healers to skip the queue. They are literally faking as a tank or healer to get ahead of people in the finder. There is no grey area. They are DPS who are saying they are tanks or healers but not doing those roles and instead DPSing the dungeon.

It has nothing to do with trying at all. It is literally saying you are something you are not to skip the queue. A bad DPS queuing as a DPS and only light attacking is not deceiving the queue. They may be unprepared, but in the terms that have been used in these forums for years now, they are not Faking their role. They are just bad. And your, or anyone else's, level of "try" is irrelevant.

Did the DPS/Tank/Healer queue for a role they didn't intend to perform?
If Yes: Fake
If No: Not Fake

Did the DPS/Tank/Healer queue for the role they intend to perform but are unable to perform it well?
If Yes: BAD

Big difference. And pretty ridiculous that people are trying to twist the way the term Fake has been used historically in this forum a a gatekeeping method to make fun of players who are trying but trying poorly. Comparing them to players who are intentionally cheating the system to get through the queue faster is just absurd.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

Because a bad dps is putting a reasonable amount of effort in, but failing at it. A fake dps is not.

Some people have unreasonable standards about what they consider "putting in the effort," and label a lot of bad dds as fakes. And ofc what one considers reasonable varies from person to person.

But someone who is only light attacking the entire dungeon, or just queued into the role on their main tank for the lols is obviously not making a sincere effort. And that's different from being merely bad.

The fake dds in other words are ones people don't believe are trying hard enough even if they aren't lying about their role and intended gameplay.

Wouldn't a better word for a DPS who isn't putting any effort in be a Lazy DPS?

Sure. I think that it just get calls fake because people were already calling out fake healers and tanks. Those two aren't making an effort to actually do their role, and neither are the fake dps. The fake dps aren't doing so fraudently like the fake tanks/healers. But whatever, that's how the terminology shaked out

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Fake dds are not a thing.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

I think everyone would agree that these two statements are nonsense. DPS shouldn’t be considered any different. There are player builds that do not meet the requirements of any of the 3 roles.

We’ve all seen them, builds like 7 heavy armor “DPS” with sword and shield, no second weapon, and just left clicking their way to victory (luckily not stealing taunt), no spammables or DoTs, no full sets, random or no enchants. I’m not saying we need to give them a hard time, or kick them from the normal dungeon. Just finish the content and move on, it’s probably viable for most quests. They’re probably new, coming from Skyrim, and will get better, but calling that build a DPS because it’s not a tank or healer is simply not accurate.

Just for fun, if they are left clicking than are in fact dealing measurable Damage Per Second. Assuming they queued as a DPS, that makes them a DPS. Now of course, they are an absolutely terrible DPS, nobody wants to play with them, yada yada, but fake? Not sure that is the right term. It's of course all academic, and very different from the much more real issue of a healer with no group heals or a tank without a taunt.

Only real way I see that you could be a fake DPS would be to queue for the role, and intentionally try to do something else, which I have personally never seen. I am sure some idiot out there has found it funny to queue as a DPS and sit back and spam inner fire from the corner to steal taunt just to enrage the other 3 players, but outside of basically a deliberate troll attempt, I don't think fake is the right term.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

jaws343 wrote: »

Did the DPS/Tank/Healer queue for a role they didn't intend to perform?
If Yes: Fake
If No: Not Fake

If you're not making an effort to actually perform your role or not, then you're a fake. Whether you misrepresent yourself in queue or not, imo.

Someone who is only light attacking isn't making a sincere effort to dps. And it's a bit insulting to the effort of the dps that try, even if they are bad, to say fake dps don't exist just because people want to act as though there is zero bar for dps.

EF321

Fake dds are a thing.

Well I definitely had fake DDs, I mean the ones with 50k health / only heavy attacking with resto / 2 healing pets / sword and board and taunt / no weapon at all / not using any skills / casting siege shields / you name it. It is a thing.

In veteran dungeons, I consider bad DD a fake DD too. It is in the name - it is called veteran. It is not for learning basics of damage dealing / tanking / healing, it is for players who know how to play, for veteran players. If I am doing 45% damage in full support gear while keeping everyone alive in veteran dungeon - how are they real damage dealers? My only damaging abilities are for support too - crushing shock for ranged interrupts and wall of elements for shield and status effects.

Dojohoda

Fake dds are not a thing.

No players are fake, they are all 100% living and breathing, sometimes heavily, beings from earth.

WrathOfInnos

Fake dds are a thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

I think everyone would agree that these two statements are nonsense. DPS shouldn’t be considered any different. There are player builds that do not meet the requirements of any of the 3 roles.

We’ve all seen them, builds like 7 heavy armor “DPS” with sword and shield, no second weapon, and just left clicking their way to victory (luckily not stealing taunt), no spammables or DoTs, no full sets, random or no enchants. I’m not saying we need to give them a hard time, or kick them from the normal dungeon. Just finish the content and move on, it’s probably viable for most quests. They’re probably new, coming from Skyrim, and will get better, but calling that build a DPS because it’s not a tank or healer is simply not accurate.

Just for fun, if they are left clicking than are in fact dealing measurable Damage Per Second. Assuming they queued as a DPS, that makes them a DPS. Now of course, they are an absolutely terrible DPS, nobody wants to play with them, yada yada, but fake? Not sure that is the right term. It's of course all academic, and very different from the much more real issue of a healer with no group heals or a tank without a taunt.

Only real way I see that you could be a fake DPS would be to queue for the role, and intentionally try to do something else, which I have personally never seen. I am sure some idiot out there has found it funny to queue as a DPS and sit back and spam inner fire from the corner to steal taunt just to enrage the other 3 players, but outside of basically a deliberate troll attempt, I don't think fake is the right term.

Also just for fun. Would the same definition make fake tanks an impossibility? They do in fact get some aggro, and receive measurable incoming Damage per Second (likely a lot if they don’t have tank gear). Without a taunt, they are an absolutely terrible tank, but if a DPS can be legitimate with zero skills slotted then maybe a tank can be too .

Or is a taunt the key thing that makes a real tank? And DPS have nothing similar that be used for categorization? What if a pro tank ran an whole dungeon without a taunt skill, but held aggro by pulling first and every boss died before aggroing onto someone else? Real or fake tank?

An interesting tangent would be a healer that doesn’t heal the group. In the fading days of Simmering + Pale Order this was a very real concept. Just buff skills and sets, and certainly still a real healer. Hard to define the line between this and a support DPS trying to skip a queue. Does it change if that DPS is wearing EC + Master Architect? Or using Warhorn? Do they need to hold a resto staff without any healing skills to be legit?

I don’t have the answer here, just funny to see everyone’s take on these things. I do still think that players can fall into categories: healer, tank, DPS or no build. Not sure I’d be able to define the lines between them precisely, but for the extremes you know it when you see it.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just for fun, if they are left clicking than are in fact dealing measurable Damage Per Second. Assuming they queued as a DPS, that makes them a DPS.

No. If your defintion is so broad as to be meaningless and impossible to fulfill, then it's not a good definition. Everyone does this, including tanks and healers. There is no such thing at all as a dps under this defintion.

IMO

A dps is someone who primarily focuses on doing damage by using damage skills.

They don't have to be good at it. They don't have know a rotation or any of that. They just gotta actually be focused and making a sincere effort to do damage.

And there are absolutely people who queue as dps who do not fill that basic description. They are not making a sincere effort. They expect to be carried.

And bad dps who make that effort absolutely do not deserve to be lumped in with them, imo.

Nagastani

Fake dds are a thing.

Sure they exist but not for long. Usually these are the easiest fakers to notice, other than perhaps a bad tank. The lack of a rotation, among other things generally give them away fast.

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

Amottica wrote: »

I assume by "fake DD" it is merely suggesting someone's DPS does not measure up to their standards. To which everyone will have a different standard.

I can only say that during my few months here and using the GF I have seen some damage dealers that were on the lower side of the spectrum. I have never seen such a disparity between good DPS and the lower end as I have in ESO.

I wonder why this is the case as it is not due to the skill level of the player unless somehow ESO has attacked the worst players ever. I seriously doubt that is the case.

The reason is simple. lack of in game tutorials and information channels.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Fake dds are a thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

I think everyone would agree that these two statements are nonsense. DPS shouldn’t be considered any different. There are player builds that do not meet the requirements of any of the 3 roles.

We’ve all seen them, builds like 7 heavy armor “DPS” with sword and shield, no second weapon, and just left clicking their way to victory (luckily not stealing taunt), no spammables or DoTs, no full sets, random or no enchants. I’m not saying we need to give them a hard time, or kick them from the normal dungeon. Just finish the content and move on, it’s probably viable for most quests. They’re probably new, coming from Skyrim, and will get better, but calling that build a DPS because it’s not a tank or healer is simply not accurate.

Just for fun, if they are left clicking than are in fact dealing measurable Damage Per Second. Assuming they queued as a DPS, that makes them a DPS. Now of course, they are an absolutely terrible DPS, nobody wants to play with them, yada yada, but fake? Not sure that is the right term. It's of course all academic, and very different from the much more real issue of a healer with no group heals or a tank without a taunt.

Only real way I see that you could be a fake DPS would be to queue for the role, and intentionally try to do something else, which I have personally never seen. I am sure some idiot out there has found it funny to queue as a DPS and sit back and spam inner fire from the corner to steal taunt just to enrage the other 3 players, but outside of basically a deliberate troll attempt, I don't think fake is the right term.

Nice definition, that gave me a great idea for my new random dungeon healer. I call it: "Repentance healer".
I will slot some buff sets, maybe kinras wrath and warmachine on my templar and heal people with repentance. I'm sure there are always enough dead bodies to use for my healing.

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Fake implies deception, which is intent.

Fake doesn't have to be deceptive. It usually is but not always.

If they are being compared in the context of fake tanks and healers though, which is a term usually applied to DPS characters who intentionally sign up as tanks and healers to skip head in the queue line, intent is implied.

Why can't we just call them bad DPS? Why does the word "fake" need to be inserted? That seems odd to me, and I suspect there is an undercurrent of justification for players who fake tank that is the reasoning behind it.

No. fake tank, healer and dd applies to players that chose a role in group finder, and queue for it, even though they don't intend on preforming that role.
A "tank" that holds agro of 1 add (be it by taunt or damage), while ignoring the whole trash pack, and even hard hitting enemies, is a fake tank.
A "healer" that only passively heals allies from some secondary minor effects of his damage skills (not something that can actually keep people alive) is a fake healer.
A "dd" that only light attacks, and ends up dealing less damage than a tank in 3 support sets that mainly debuffs and stacks mobs, is a fake dd.

the roles are very defined. tanks should take most agro to protect allies. healers should heal allies and provide support to them. dds should be a major contributor to the group's damage. or at least enough damage that it is possible to pass the dungeon.

Notice that I am typing from a vet (even vet DLC) dungeon perspective, normal is where people should learn their roles, and therefore is irrelevant when discussing fake roles (like seriously, i had a irl friend that chose the tank role "because she is in melee range, so she takes some damage")

to answer your question about calling them bad dds, well, because naturally they dont plan on dealing the damage quote to pass the content. and your suspicion is baseless on me, since I don't run random normals.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Fake dds are not a thing.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

I think everyone would agree that these two statements are nonsense. DPS shouldn’t be considered any different. There are player builds that do not meet the requirements of any of the 3 roles.

We’ve all seen them, builds like 7 heavy armor “DPS” with sword and shield, no second weapon, and just left clicking their way to victory (luckily not stealing taunt), no spammables or DoTs, no full sets, random or no enchants. I’m not saying we need to give them a hard time, or kick them from the normal dungeon. Just finish the content and move on, it’s probably viable for most quests. They’re probably new, coming from Skyrim, and will get better, but calling that build a DPS because it’s not a tank or healer is simply not accurate.

Just for fun, if they are left clicking than are in fact dealing measurable Damage Per Second. Assuming they queued as a DPS, that makes them a DPS. Now of course, they are an absolutely terrible DPS, nobody wants to play with them, yada yada, but fake? Not sure that is the right term. It's of course all academic, and very different from the much more real issue of a healer with no group heals or a tank without a taunt.

Only real way I see that you could be a fake DPS would be to queue for the role, and intentionally try to do something else, which I have personally never seen. I am sure some idiot out there has found it funny to queue as a DPS and sit back and spam inner fire from the corner to steal taunt just to enrage the other 3 players, but outside of basically a deliberate troll attempt, I don't think fake is the right term.

Also just for fun. Would the same definition make fake tanks an impossibility? They do in fact get some aggro, and receive measurable incoming Damage per Second (likely a lot if they don’t have tank gear). Without a taunt, they are an absolutely terrible tank, but if a DPS can be legitimate with zero skills slotted then maybe a tank can be too .

Or is a taunt the key thing that makes a real tank? And DPS have nothing similar that be used for categorization? What if a pro tank ran an whole dungeon without a taunt skill, but held aggro by pulling first and every boss died before aggroing onto someone else? Real or fake tank?

An interesting tangent would be a healer that doesn’t heal the group. In the fading days of Simmering + Pale Order this was a very real concept. Just buff skills and sets, and certainly still a real healer. Hard to define the line between this and a support DPS trying to skip a queue. Does it change if that DPS is wearing EC + Master Architect? Or using Warhorn? Do they need to hold a resto staff without any healing skills to be legit?

I don’t have the answer here, just funny to see everyone’s take on these things. I do still think that players can fall into categories: healer, tank, DPS or no build. Not sure I’d be able to define the lines between them precisely, but for the extremes you know it when you see it.

Ha its funny, because there are no answers here, but people sure are getting feisty.

To me, at a minimum for purposes of groupfinder, a tank needs a taunt, a healer needs a group heal, and a DPS needs to deal damage. The first two have specific skill requirements. A tank needs, pierce, inner fire, or a frost staff. A healer needs some sort of reliable skill that heals others (not sure repentance on its own checks that box). A damage dealer, well, plenty of ways to do DPS. Some are way better than others. DPS just means damage per second, it doesnt indicate how much. If I do one light attack every other second, and nothing else, I am still doing DPS, just not a lot of it. People have cleared VMA by spamming light attack. I could easily make a build that has no direct damage skills that out parses 80% of groupfinder, not that its a terribly high bar.

Clearly no right answers, but I will stand by my statement. You take your average skyrim fanboy on his nord with 7 heavy and a S+B, he queues as a DPS, and just beats on things with light and heavy attacks. I dont think that is fake DPS, I just think that is a terrible DPS.

And again, its all academic. To me, in this context of fake tanks and fake healer, fake implies intentionally queuing for a role you are purposely not satisfying to circumvent the group finder queue. Not saying its never happened, I just don't think that's a common thing in GF with DPS. I just think that the average DPS in group finder is beyond abysmal. But yes, we should definitely spend a few more pages talking about what word to call them.

Fennwitty

Fake dds are not a thing.

There's a lot of very low damage dealers in the game but I still draw the line at intent and willingness to improve.

If I start seeing damage dealers healing the heck out of the group, rounding up adds and immobilizing, and face-tanking bosses then I'll consider calling them fake.

Hapexamendios

Fake dds are not a thing.

Not so much fake as people don't know what they're doing imo.

Amottica

GreenHere wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I assume by "fake DD" it is merely suggesting someone's DPS does not measure up to their standards. To which everyone will have a different standard.

I can only say that during my few months here and using the GF I have seen some damage dealers that were on the lower side of the spectrum. I have never seen such a disparity between good DPS and the lower end as I have in ESO.

I wonder why this is the case as it is not due to the skill level of the player unless somehow ESO has attacked the worst players ever. I seriously doubt that is the case.

I seriously think it is the weaving / animation cancelling system. Everything requires such precise time via button mashing, and that is not how everyone plays.

I know even me it took me a long time to realize that the weaving was even necessary.

I was pointed to the ESO logs wite and told to look at a specific raid, I think the newest one, to see how much weaving LAs added to one's damage. For the highest DPS in the top groups it was ~18% but that percentage dropped as the rest of the DPS dropped which told me two things.

1. Going more complex does not come close to explaining why to players do so much more damage than the lower end. We are not talking about an 18% difference.

2. That getting down the basics of the rotation of skills is significantly more important than trying to weave and such.

In other words, it is something else than weaving and this AC you speak of.

I'm not in the top-tier DPS bracket, so hopefully someone who really understands it better can chime in if I get this totally wrong, but...

Just because ~18% of the best players' damage was Light Attacks, doesn't mean anyone's trying to point to that as explaining the damage difference between "ceiling" and "floor" DPS. Don't mistake 18% of Player X's total DPS for the DPS differential between Player X and Player Y; know what I mean?

It's more about the fact the because Light Attacks make up such a large chunk of good players' damage, it illustrates the importance of nailing the timing of LAs between skill casts. We're talking about literal fractions of a second here, so if you're even slightly off of the "perfect" timing that the game allows, you're simply doing less actions in the same amount of time as someone who's hitting the timing dead on perfect.

So like, I can post parses where LAs are about ~18% of my total damage all day long -- but because my timing kinda sucks and my rotation is sorta sloppy that doesn't mean much. I'm doing the same number/ratio of Light Attacks:skills since I do 1 LA before every skill cast (you know... mostly), but that doesn't erase the fact that better players are pumping out the same exact ratio... only faster.

Forgive me if I misunderstood some wording somewhere or something, but it sounds like you may be conflating X% of a player's DPS with the % difference in DPS that various players have. Which if that's the case will lead you astray really quickly!

Oh no. They were not trying to explain the difference between the top and bottom players. It was a discussion about the difference that LAs and AC made for someone's DPS. The information made it clear that those that struggle are struggling with the basics.

If you really think the difference between someone doing 10-15k DPS and someone doing 60k or better is merely LAs and AC then please do provide some actual information such as videos with and without LAs because even though I am new to ESO I think it is far from that simple.

Ah, my bad then. Apologies. I misunderstood, and was trying to help fix a problem that didn't exist. Feel free to ignore me, haha.

But no, there's no way anyone can honestly say with a straight face that that all a 10K player needs to do is get their LA & AC in order and they'll suddenly be more than 5X better. Sorry if what I wrote implied that in any way; that was not at all my intention.

Naa, nothing wrong was said. We were just having a discussion. It is all good.