Are fake dds a thing?

lihentian

zos should make a fake que, where everyone can fake their role..

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

lihentian wrote: »

zos should make a fake que, where everyone can fake their role..

It is called normal dungeons. The world where roles don't matter, and where people learn the game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Fake dds are not a thing.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Are people saying that any player that’s not specifically a tank or healer gets categorized as DPS regardless of their gear and skills? That seems like an odd definition to me. Why wouldn’t it work the other way?

“If a player is not dealing damage or healing, they are in fact a true tank, regardless of whether they use tank skills or gear.”

or

“If a player is not tanking or dealing damage, they are a true healer, regardless of whether they use healing skills or gear.”

People do not say this.... the game itself says this. It can't work the other way around because the player must consciously choose to change their role away from dd the first time. Therefore all players are dd until they choose to be tanks or healers. Tanks and healers can be fake but dd can not because it is the default position of all players.

Hence tanks and healers are choices but dd is not a choice only a measure. Therefore someone who tries to tanks and fails is a bad tank not a fake one. Someone who tries and fails to heal is a bad healer not a fake one. But all other failures, not already defined of tanking or of healing, is a bad dd. So no matter what, as a dd you are bad never fake.

That’s the part I disagree with. I think you’re reading too much into the fact that new characters start with the DD role selected. It’s the most common role, and the easiest to perform the basics of, so it makes sense that the devs made that default. That certainly doesn’t imply that 100% of new characters are DPS builds. By your definition every tank and healer in the game would also be classified as a legitimate DPS. I require them to at least attempt to deal damage before I would use that label.

I’d also say that every solo player does all 3 roles by default. They receive aggro and must survive it, they have to heal themself and provide their own buffs, and they deal damage to kill their enemies. There’s nothing about this experience that mandates they are a DD when it comes to group content. In general there is a preference to focus more on damage when solo because that allows completing content faster, and most quest/overland enemies are not tough enough to require a focus on tankiness or self-healing (although they’re also not tough enough to require a focus on effective damage), but that doesn’t mean they are neglecting any of the 3 roles.

Yep. Tank, Healer and DPS are terms that ONLY make sense in group content. If you are not in a group, you are none of those things specifically, you are all of them. That is why I lose my mind every time I hear about tanks and healers whining about places like VMA. You cant tank or heal enemies to death when you are solo, you need to do damage, and also, keep yourself alive and handle aggro from everything.

That might not totally hold true in PVP, but in PVP, your alliance is effectively your group.

warg_derpin_gdf

Fake dds are a thing.

Yeah, but are we talking about the thing when taking on Blackheart? THAT is what we should really be basing "opinions" on. Everybody wants to get involved, but not everybody is prepared, so I mean as long as someone can do remarkably better than after getting skeleton cursed, they could avoid the label.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

zvavi wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Why can we have fake healers and tanks? There is only one reason and it's clearly written in their tootips... they responsible to others. It clearly makes reference certain actions in regards to other players. That is why there are fake tanks and fake healers as they have consciously disregarded the required responsibilities if their role.

Now look at damage. There is nothing in there about their responsibility to anything other than damage which is their focus. But it doesn't say how to accomplish that because the role requires greater flexibility than the other roles. With out a mechanic that requires it... you dont need dds, they are just oil to help move the tank and healer through the dungeons bowl system faster.

In my opinion, proclaiming that tanks and healers have responsibility towards the group, while dds don't, is highly unfair, and I can't agree with such a remark. Is there someone who thinks there are no fake dds and doesn't free them of responsibility that he forces on the other 2 roles?

You misunderstand. You can Clear content as a group or you can not. But only tank and healers have written responsibilities to ensure the clear. These are semantics and they do matter. The dd is only responsible to itself in its focus to do damage. It does not have a responsibility to the tank or the healer as its role is written. This is to ensure that anyone can be labeled as damage. If they are not good enough then you simply don't clear the content and they have to go back to the drawing board to get better. That doesn't make them fake only unprepared, inexperienced. This of course applies only to those actively attempting to do damage.

A person who enters a dungeon as a dd and does. Not participate is not a fake dd only a bad person and you don't clear content.

If you clear content the dd was good enough. And no one cares after that.

Remember that tank and healer are conscious choices... you must accept that responsibility. No one is forcing it on you, you push the button acknowledging your duties. Damage does not have that, damage does not require a conscious decision. It is the default.

You can not be something other than default with out a conscious choice, therefore there can not be a fake damage only poor damage or a bad player which is not inherent to the role.

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You misunderstand. You can Clear content as a group or you can not. But only tank and healers have written responsibilities to ensure the clear. These are semantics and they do matter. The dd is only responsible to itself in its focus to do damage. It does not have a responsibility to the tank or the healer as its role is written. This is to ensure that anyone can be labeled as damage. If they are not good enough then you simply don't clear the content and they have to go back to the drawing board to get better. That doesn't make them fake only unprepared, inexperienced. This of course applies only to those actively attempting to do damage.

A person who enters a dungeon as a dd and does. Not participate is not a fake dd only a bad person and you don't clear content.

If you clear content the dd was good enough. And no one cares after that.

where did i misunderstand? you first wrote I misunderstood, then went on about how tanks and healers have written responsibilities. and dds dont. The thing i was not willing to stand behind.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Remember that tank and healer are conscious choices... you must accept that responsibility. No one is forcing it on you, you push the button acknowledging your duties. Damage does not have that, damage does not require a conscious decision. It is the default.

You can not be something other than default with out a conscious choice, therefore there can not be a fake damage only poor damage or a bad player which is not inherent to the role.

the roles exist only within group settings. you can shuffle the role buttons as much as you want when not in group. It means nothing. you know when you accept responsibility? when you press the accept button when dungeon queue pops, the message that includs the role you signed up as. Thats the moment. I believe you and everyone else queuing for all 3 roles, press that button consciously. No one is forcing it on you, you push the button acknowledging your duties.

which brings me back to my previous question.

zvavi wrote: »

In my opinion, proclaiming that tanks and healers have responsibility towards the group, while dds don't, is highly unfair, and I can't agree with such a remark. Is there someone who thinks there are no fake dds and doesn't free them of responsibility that he forces on the other 2 roles?

PS - end note. tank's role as described is "absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked" which means all players go under that description, since by existing, they will divert some damage towards them from trash mobs, therefore preventing that damage from hitting their allies, which means there is no such thing as fake tanks /sarcasm.

RageKing

Fake dds are a thing.

What do you call someone if they know theirgear is trash and constantly do the lowest DPS in group yet put no effort in trying to to actually get good gear or ldo more than just light attack with an occasional skill use? What do you call that person who ques as a DD over and over and just fails and complains when you try to give them advice on their build and yells about "this is my playstyle"?

I call them fake DPS

FireDragonn534

Fake dds are a thing.

Although it doesn't really matter in random normals (other than making them a pain to get through) I typically think of a fake dps as a tanky SnB pvp toon that has more health than the tank, and I've seen quite a few in pugs whilst levelling new characters.

With the right gear and skills it isn't that hard to break 20k+ dps on a cp toon and even in a pug hitting less than that whilst queueing as a dps really isn't fair for your group members (just like queueing as a fake tank or healer).

Goregrinder

Fake dds are a thing.

RageKing wrote: »

What do you call someone if they know theirgear is trash and constantly do the lowest DPS in group yet put no effort in trying to to actually get good gear or ldo more than just light attack with an occasional skill use? What do you call that person who ques as a DD over and over and just fails and complains when you try to give them advice on their build and yells about "this is my playstyle"?

I call them fake DPS

Well we certainly wouldn't call them "Real DPS", that's for sure.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Fake dds are not a thing.

@zvavi hitting the accept button is not when you accept responsibility. Before you enter a dungeon you don't know if your prepared. Which is why groups fail sometimes. That does not mean they were fake. A tank can fail and not be a fake tank. A healer can fail and not be a fake healer. Likewise damage can fail and since there us no such thing as fake damage their failure is straightforward. They are not prepared. Pugs fail, some dungeons were absolute pug slayers, this does not mean they were fake only unprepared.

So responsibility begins before hitting accept. I don't know why anyone would queue all three roles, unless they can accept the responsibility of being tank or healer, if not then they are fake and should have only queued damage. It's not in our power to force bad people not to do bad things.

As for the tank, that does not mean everyone is the tank. Tank is a conscious choice to accept that responsibility of taking aggro. The role is the action... the role is the action. If the tank fails its generally a wipe in many circumstances. Same with healer. But damage is by its nature more forgiving of error to allow a greater amount of participants.

Goregrinder

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@zvavi hitting the accept button is not when you accept responsibility. Before you enter a dungeon you don't know if your prepared. Which is why groups fail sometimes. That does not mean they were fake. A tank can fail and not be a fake tank. A healer can fail and not be a fake healer. Likewise damage can fail and since there us no such thing as fake damage their failure is straightforward. They are not prepared. Pugs fail, some dungeons were absolute pug slayers, this does not mean they were fake only unprepared.

So responsibility begins before hitting accept. I don't know why anyone would queue all three roles, unless they can accept the responsibility of being tank or healer, if not then they are fake and should have only queued damage. It's not in our power to force bad people not to do bad things.

As for the tank, that does not mean everyone is the tank. Tank is a conscious choice to accept that responsibility of taking aggro. The role is the action... the role is the action. If the tank fails its generally a wipe in many circumstances. Same with healer. But damage is by its nature more forgiving of error to allow a greater amount of participants.

You're literally "accepting" when you click Accept. Literally.

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

zvavi hitting the accept button is not when you accept responsibility. Before you enter a dungeon you don't know if your prepared. Which is why groups fail sometimes. That does not mean they were fake. A tank can fail and not be a fake tank. A healer can fail and not be a fake healer. Likewise damage can fail and since there us no such thing as fake damage their failure is straightforward. They are not prepared. Pugs fail, some dungeons were absolute pug slayers, this does not mean they were fake only unprepared.

So responsibility begins before hitting accept. I don't know why anyone would queue all three roles, unless they can accept the responsibility of being tank or healer, if not then they are fake and should have only queued damage. It's not in our power to force bad people not to do bad things.

What are you even talking about? Are you telling me you accept the group's responsibility when you are not in the group yet? This makes 0 sense. Roles only make sense within group setting. you accept responsibility to do your role, when you hit accept, you may fail at it, then it is not faking, but being bad, but if you dont intend to do it, you are a fake. there we start the conversation, of what responsibility does roles have?

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

As for the tank, that does not mean everyone is the tank. Tank is a conscious choice to accept that responsibility of taking aggro. The role is the action... the role is the action. If the tank fails its generally a wipe in many circumstances. Same with healer. But damage is by its nature more forgiving of error to allow a greater amount of participants.

But you take agro by existing, I run scale caller peak earlier and got hit by so many things, if they wouldn't hit me they would hit my allies! I redirected damage from allies to me! I am a tank! /Sarcasm

What was the difference between me, and a noobie tank that only agro's one add and lets the others run amok? I will answer. The intent. Both scenarios, jobwise, we did the same. Reality wise, one was ignorant, while the other was not a tank. Same works with dds.

I will repeat my stance on this as many times as needed. pushing responsibility on specific roles without pushing responsibility on all of them is not fair.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

zvavi wrote: »

I will repeat my stance on this as many times as needed. pushing responsibility on specific roles without pushing responsibility on all of them is not fair.

It's also not how the group finder is at all meant to be used. We have how Zenimax defines the roles right in the skill advisor.

No role, damage role, heal role, and tank role.

You're not even allowed to use group finder when you first make your character.

It's funny how "the skill advisor is wrong" is used to dismiss intentions ZOS explicitly states. But somehow we're supposed to be on board with the idea that what is the most common option by far being the default completely erases your responsibility to the group.

All players have a basic responsibility to the group.

The tank must try to hold aggro from particuparly dangerous enemies, so don't hit anyone else.

The healer must try to keep their allies alive by healing them.

The dps must try to be the designated killer and use their damage skills to kill stuff.

Killing stuff is a responsibility to the group. Killing stuff is the group's objective. DDs are literally being tasked with being the main person focused on completing the primary objective of the dungeon. How is that not a group responsibility?

Everyone has their own job to do, that's why there are 3 jobs in the queue.

Ippokrates

Fake dds are not a thing.

Well, in terms of deception and avoiding queue, no they are not.

However, some players are going into pugs with Solo or PvP set up (for example, I have seen guy with Javelin ), which are not optimal, but again - if you going pugs, it is hard to trust unknown group and remove those few defensive measures you have...

Goregrinder

Fake dds are a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will repeat my stance on this as many times as needed. pushing responsibility on specific roles without pushing responsibility on all of them is not fair.

It's also not how the group finder is at all meant to be used. We have how Zenimax defines the roles right in the skill advisor.

No role, damage role, heal role, and tank role.

You're not even allowed to use group finder when you first make your character.

It's funny how "the skill advisor is wrong" is used to dismiss intentions ZOS explicitly states. But somehow we're supposed to be on board with the idea that what is the most common option by far being the default completely erases your responsibility to the group.

All players have a basic responsibility to the group.

The tank must try to hold aggro from particuparly dangerous enemies, so don't hit anyone else.

The healer must try to keep their allies alive by healing them.

The dps must try to be the designated killer and use their damage skills to kill stuff.

Killing stuff is a responsibility to the group. Killing stuff is the group's objective. DDs are literally being tasked with being the main person focused on completing the primary objective of the dungeon. How is that not a group responsibility?

Everyone has their own job to do, that's why there are 3 jobs in the queue.

Someone please give this man some skooma and ale. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Kaurie

Fake dds are a thing.

Fake dds is a thing, but a fake DD isn't someone who does low damage. It's someone who is set up as a tank or healer and queues as a DPS. Someone who taunts everything or spams restoration, while in the DD role. It's rare. Very rare. Why? Because why would a tank or healer opt for a slower queue. I've seen it happen once though.

TheDarkRuler

ForeverJenn wrote: »

Sorry, a bad dps getting carried thru a dungeon is in fact faking their role.

It is not. Everyone starts somewhere.

Tsar_Gekkou

Apparently it's fine to talk about tanks and healers underperforming, but talking about bad dps is "toxic" to a lot of people for some reason.

Kaurie

Fake dds are a thing.

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Apparently it's fine to talk about tanks and healers underperforming, but talking about bad dps is "toxic" to a lot of people for some reason.

Personally, I think it's fine to talk about underperforming players, but that's not what a "fake" something is. Fake tanks aren't bad tanks. Fake healers aren't bad healers. Those are just bad tanks and bad healers.

zvavi

Fake dds are a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will repeat my stance on this as many times as needed. pushing responsibility on specific roles without pushing responsibility on all of them is not fair.

It's also not how the group finder is at all meant to be used. We have how Zenimax defines the roles right in the skill advisor.

No role, damage role, heal role, and tank role.

You're not even allowed to use group finder when you first make your character.

It's funny how "the skill advisor is wrong" is used to dismiss intentions ZOS explicitly states. But somehow we're supposed to be on board with the idea that what is the most common option by far being the default completely erases your responsibility to the group.

All players have a basic responsibility to the group.

The tank must try to hold aggro from particuparly dangerous enemies, so don't hit anyone else.

The healer must try to keep their allies alive by healing them.

The dps must try to be the designated killer and use their damage skills to kill stuff.

Killing stuff is a responsibility to the group. Killing stuff is the group's objective. DDs are literally being tasked with being the main person focused on completing the primary objective of the dungeon. How is that not a group responsibility?

Everyone has their own job to do, that's why there are 3 jobs in the queue.

I agree with you. My post was towards those who are saying fake dds don't exist because dds have no responsibilities.

HertoginJanneke

Fake dds are not a thing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...
Tanks = keep stuff from attacking
Healer = give heals to group
Damage = kill the things
...

• Fake tanks dont keep stuff from atttacking. They generally dont have taunt and debuffs, and when having aggro they run around the area making it almost impossible for the dd's to make a rotation with AoE's, resulting in lower damage so they can be blamed for being fake damage.
• Fake healers dont give heals to group. Also no buffs and debuffs. This results in dead tank and lower damage from the dd's so they can be blamed for being fake damage.
• 'Fake' damage kill the things, but at a slower rate. So as long as the things dies, there is no such thing as fake damage, only low damage (which tbh can be a problem).

But if fake is an issue for you (anyone) the solution is simple : dont queue your dd's as tank or healer if you have no plans to do the job you queue for. Bring true tanks and healers and help the 'fake' damage to improve their damage, in normal dungeons because that is the place where you have to learn the basics of your role.

supersonic_kitten

Fake dds are a thing.

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

'Fake' damage kill the things, but at a slower rate. So as long as the things dies, there is no such thing as fake damage, only low damage (which tbh can be a problem).

This is where you're wrong. 'Fake' damage don't kill things at a slower rate. If the real healer and the real tank look at the things not dying for a PAINFULLY long time at all, sigh and then go on to spam their sparse damage/debuff skills to somewhat speed up the process and end up somehow doing more damage than BOTH of the DDs, that's fake DDs. And don't tell me that doesn't exist, it's the entire reason I don't queue for normals anymore.
I can understand when people are new and low level. I'm never leaving if I end up in a newbie group on my tanks or my healer. But if I end up in a group with to cp900+ DDs where one of which stands behind spamming snipe and bow light attacks, and the other does nothing but heavy attack with a resto staff, and the fisrt trash group takes 5 minutes to die because why wouldn't it since there's no AoE? it's where I draw the line. Fake damage doesn't exist riiiight.

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

Bring true tanks and healers and help the 'fake' damage to improve their damage, in normal dungeons because that is the place where you have to learn the basics of your role.

No. I'm not signing up to take on everybody's job all at once. I don't want to have to tank and crowd control the mobs and also dps my behind off (very poorly might I add, because *surprise* I'm a tank) because the pug damage dealers didn't bother to research how to contribute to group damage and apparently think there's no requirements to their role.
I am, however, far more likely to go and fake tank a random normal on one of my DDs because at least then I know things will die fast. Which, as noted by @spartaxoxo, is kind of the goal of the dungeon.

EF321

Fake dds are a thing.

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

Bring true tanks and healers and help the 'fake' damage to improve their damage, in normal dungeons because that is the place where you have to learn the basics of your role.

That is how you get called a-hole and kicked for bullying low levels. True story.

spartaxoxo

Fake dds are a thing.

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

But if fake is an issue for you (anyone) the solution is simple : dont queue your dd's as tank or healer if you have no plans to do the job you queue for. Bring true tanks and healers and help the 'fake' damage to improve their damage, in normal dungeons because that is the place where you have to learn the basics of your role.

Nope. Because in the case of fake dds they aren't the ones doing the primary damage. The tanks and heals are. They become the ones focused on damage and the fakes become baggage to carry. And if I'm gonna be forced to do their job too, I'll be jammed sure to do it on a character equipped for the task. And that's NOT my tank.

I quit real tanking altogether because of these people. I only fake now. And yes, I slot a taunt.

Reverb

Fake dds are a thing.

I’ve encountered at least 50 different people in random groups who do less than 8k dps on bosses, yet are casting nonstop. Considering you can get 12k+ with just light and heavy attacks on crafted sets, you almost have to be actively trying to do such bad dps.

seldomseenkd

Fake dds are not a thing.

Depends what you mean by "fake DDs". You don't get many tanks and healers choosing to spend 10+ minutes in the damage queue, so I'm guessing you mean underperforming DDs.

Being in a group with underperforming DDs sucks proportionally to the difficulty of the content. My advice: If you're having a bad time in the random queue then the problem is your overreliance on the random queue. Expecting it to be anything other than a wretched hive of scum and incompetence is naive.

Goregrinder

Fake dds are a thing.

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Apparently it's fine to talk about tanks and healers underperforming, but talking about bad dps is "toxic" to a lot of people for some reason.

Because most players play DPS, and most DPS fall into this category, so they probably feel attacked, even if it's just stating that empirically their super low DPS is puzzling to some of us. You know how it is though, some people can criticize others, but can't take criticism themselves.

Xebov

Fake dds are a thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Have you ever tried to talk to these "fake dd" by any chance? I've played since launch and I can count the number of real trollish players I met on my fingers and toes still.

Oh i did. PvP players that defended their right to dungeons even with their bad suited PvP gear. Players that called me Elitist or stuff i dont want to recall. Players that openly told me they expect me to cover up for their lack.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

DD is anyone not tank or healer.

Primarily a DD deals damage, a tank tanks and a healer heals. If someone queues as a Tank or Healer without filling the role hes a fake. The same is true for DDs. Players are not bad DDs, they are fake DDs, they queue with no regard for the group.

Jeremy

Fake dds are a thing.

Kaurie wrote: »

Fake dds is a thing, but a fake DD isn't someone who does low damage. It's someone who is set up as a tank or healer and queues as a DPS. Someone who taunts everything or spams restoration, while in the DD role. It's rare. Very rare. Why? Because why would a tank or healer opt for a slower queue. I've seen it happen once though.

Yeah, I've seen it a couple of times too. It's rare, but it does happen.

I talked to a healer who did this one time. From what I understood, it seems they do it because they want to avoid the responsibility that goes along with the role so they can't get blamed when people die. So that's probably why tanks do it sometimes (though rarely) as well. The DPS role is seen by some as a default role with no responsibilities, a safe role people can sign up for with no strings attached. But that's not really how this game works. It might be like that on some other MMORPGs, but on this one competent DPS is pretty mandatory, especially on the harder DLC content.

Jeremy

Fake dds are a thing.

Reverb wrote: »

I’ve encountered at least 50 different people in random groups who do less than 8k dps on bosses, yet are casting nonstop. Considering you can get 12k+ with just light and heavy attacks on crafted sets, you almost have to be actively trying to do such bad dps.

They probably just aren't geared or have CP invested.

Even with a good rotation, if you don't have any DPS gear or CP it's not that hard to imagine them doing under 10k DPS. And considering how easy questing is on this game and the fact normal dungeons are dominated by speed runners, players really don't have have an opportunity to learn how important having the right gear is to their role until they start doing veteran content. So I doubt those players doing 8k are fake DPS, or at least not intentionally fake DPS. They are just inexperienced and still learning.

You see similar things happen to tanks when they make the jump from regular to DLC content, where they continuously get one-shotted (even while blocking) because they aren't geared appropriately. It's a learning experience. Doesn't make them fake.