Update 30 Combat Preview

Recremen

A lot of this sounds like good changes that will help out a wide swath of players (always good to see changes that help out newer players with less CP, for example). I'm less excited about another cut to total player power by cutting the number of stages without adjusting the point values to make them equivalent to current high-level play. Didn't we already get a massive damage cut when this system went live? Or was that a miscommunication? I don't think that sort of thing does much to "lower the ceiling" as much as it lowers the number of players who can complete content.

relentless_turnip

Incredible news! Another cracking change! Fix performance and I will never leave you 😍

Firstmep

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I just wanna point out that I was the first one to suggest the proc scaling.
Thank you!

Let's hope that the scaling is aggressive and not something trivial like 3000 Weapon/Spell Damage = 100% proc value.

Yeah i really hope they dont make them too easy.

That being said i think this is going to make charachter building a lot more interesting.

More numbers crunching too, as opposed to just wear these 2-3 sets and your good.

Ezhh

When I must work on getting 30 more levels to gain 1% mitigation to physical damage, and learn they feel the need to take "some of the power out of the high-end experience"... Something feels wrong.

It already feels like CP doesn't make a huge difference to PvE performance because so much of the stats already got moved to the base. Now it sounds like this will leave CP passives feeling close to worthless instead of just enough to try and get.

Also lets think about Green CP. It's already the odd-one out needing insane micromanagement and, from my 1600 CP feels like the tree I still want more CP in, while Blue/Red feel fine and were already feeling fine a couple hundred CP ago. It sounds like this will only effect Red/Blue CP so the imbalance is going to get even bigger?

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Let's hope that the scaling is aggressive and not something trivial like 3000 Weapon/Spell Damage = 100% proc value.

Yes, and let's also hope we get something like 10k Weapon/Spell Damage = 200% proc value, or whatever. This will open up all sorts of new outrageously powerful but extremely limited and inflexible builds. Vicious Death MagBlades will no longer be the only sort of build that really typifies an "extreme reward, extreme risk" playstyle.

Rhygam

"The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now. [...]

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks."

1. Who asked for these CP Changes? Literally just closed the skill cap for lower end players, [snip]
2. How, and in whitch form is this gonna work, that it actually works against this very valid point of "free damage"? With the amount of Weapon dmg you can get rn with an orc and just warrior and infused jewellery. Does that mean, that stam proc sets are going to be more damaging then magicka proc sets, given by how scaling works? How is this going to affect sets, that base their healing on damage done? (Should sets even do that?)
3. Why Can't You Just Revert the PVP Changes to pre gamebreaker patch?
4. Pls just nerf certain Proc Sets. Just plain nerf them.
5. Why is mala band still working with proc sets???

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Spamming]

Firstmep

Rhygam wrote: »

"The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now. [...]

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks."

1. Who asked for these CP Changes? Literally just closed the skill cap for lower end players, [snip]
2. How, and in whitch form is this gonna work, that it actually works against this very valid point of "free damage"? With the amount of Weapon dmg you can get rn with an orc and just warrior and infused jewellery. Does that mean, that stam proc sets are going to be more damaging then magicka proc sets, given by how scaling works? How is this going to affect sets, that base their healing on damage done? (Should sets even do that?)
3. Why Can't You Just Revert the PVP Changes to pre gamebreaker patch?
4. Pls just nerf certain Proc Sets. Just plain nerf them.
5. Why is mala band still working with proc sets???

[snip]

This change looks to eliminate the 64 points into hp full procset warden type builds.
If you wanna run an orc with warrior, infused wpd glyph and a procset, thats already a lot of investment made towards making your proc hit harder, Stats you are not investing into tankiness or sustain.
I hope they don't make the scaling too generous, since that would defeat the whole point of this change.

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

It is nice that you are making proc sets to scale with something.

But...

You are running into the risk of giving high dmg builds very strong survivability by adding strong healing (as healing "proc sets" will scale max offensive stat).

This will create almost same scenario as we have now, expect people will run healing sets and spec for maximum dmg (while now people spec for very "tanky" spec and have dmg from "proc sets").

I honestly believe that "proc sets" that provide healing or dmg shields - should scale with maximum health and not offensive stat.

^ That way players will have to chose if they want to have high dmg output or high survivability. Making healing sets to scale with max offensive stat might be a mistake. As far as I remember we already had this kind of problem where dmg shields scaled off max magicka, providing huge survivability for a magicka stacking builds - and because of that it was extremely easy to have a build with huge dmg output, and also - very tanky.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

(Just to clarify: By healing proc sets, I mean sets that only heal, and do not deal dmg. Sets that deal dmg & heal you for % dmg should scale with offensive stat. But healing portion should scale off max health).

olsborg

I like it alot.

Fennwitty

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Thanks.

The biggest concern for me and many people in my guilds though is THE EXCESSIVE NUMBER OF SLOTTED GREEN STARS IS HIGHLY ANNOYING.

There are many threads and polls about this topic. While specific recommendations vary, overall the opinion is pretty consistent that Craft stars are a "micromanagement mini-game" hell.

Fennwitty

Also on the subject of Green/Craft:

It seems like the slotted stars and unslotted stars in many cases are backwards. Things that influence combat are passive stars while things that don't are slotted.

While the gains aren't tremendous on their own, fully passive stars like Breakfall are significant helps in PvP, and currently don't even require slotting.

Starlight_Whisper

So any race without max magicka is screwed over in balance for healers. 😑

Urzigurumash

Great point @Tommy_The_Gun . It's interesting that the Healing Procs will scale off Highest Resource, and Damage Procs will scale off Highest Damage. This should mean build types which have a spread of skills that have co-efficients more weighted towards Resource will see relatively better use of Healing Procs, and builds whose co-efficients favor Damage will see relatively better use of Damage Procs. I agree with you it would make more sense if Healing Procs scaled off Health, but the method described seems like it might lead to a wider variety of viable build types, and will increase the affinity of certain proc sets with certain classes, which I think is a desirable thing. A large complaint during this last proc meta was that strong procs diminished class identity, whereas they may now, possibly, elevate it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Would be nice to see a similar post for PVP plans for the next update. I'm never really sure these days if your focus is more combat or PVP and whether there is someone else we should @ for PVP news?

Also if you can update us on the 4 main PVP bugs which have plagued Cyro for the past year (49000 day debuffs, Desync after knockback and knockup skills, synergy issues with certain skills not working, Disconnects loading players on approach to large fights) it would be greatly appreciated

Psiion

Greetings,

After removing and editing a few non-constructive posts, we would like to remind everyone that both Baiting and Bashing are against the Forum's Community Rules. Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind.

YandereGirlfriend

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

So any race without max magicka is screwed over in balance for healers. 😑

A measly 800-2000 Magicka isn't going to impact your healing in any meaningful way. This is even more true since raw HPS is basically irrelevant to healer performance, it's more about keeping group buffs up and having good timing with what actual heals that you do use.

Tommy_The_Gun

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Great point @Tommy_The_Gun . It's interesting that the Healing Procs will scale off Highest Resource, and Damage Procs will scale off Highest Damage. This should mean build types which have a spread of skills that have co-efficients more weighted towards Resource will see relatively better use of Healing Procs, and builds whose co-efficients favor Damage will see relatively better use of Damage Procs. I agree with you it would make more sense if Healing Procs scaled off Health, but the method described seems like it might lead to a wider variety of viable build types, and will increase the affinity of certain proc sets with certain classes, which I think is a desirable thing. A large complaint during this last proc meta was that strong procs diminished class identity, whereas they may now, possibly, elevate it.

Well, maybe, but I have my doubts. I just quickly looked at some classes and well... What Mag Sorc or Werewolf would do ?

On Werewolf you have % stamina boost and % weapon dmg boost - meaning that you could potentially run healing sets (like Bahraha / Livewire / Crimson and maybe you would not even need magicka sustain to cast expensive heal... because sets will do healing for you...

Same on Sorc. You could stack magicka (as Mag Sorcs do) and have free heals. As for stam Warden & Necro ? I am even afraid to think of that...

The thing is that high magicka / stamina and spell / weapon dmg almost always go in "pairs". By building for dmg, you build to have those. So sets will basically provide "free healing"

^ I simply fear that this change will simply be a "flip of a coin" and instead of tanky spec with "free dmg" for sets, we will have bursty spec with "free healing / survivability / tankyness " from sets...

Jaimeh

Also, with the second major change to cp, it's baffling to think how this has been in develpoment for two years... you could have just added smaller tiers, instead of nerfing the overal value, so for example, if a star needed 40 points and had 2 tiers of 20 points each, it should have 4 tiers of 10 points each: this keeps the strength of the star (and in the case of penetration, it's very much needed for stam PvE DDs), but lowers the amount of CP you need to unlock the next tier and have some of the benefit, until you can get more CPs.

Sleep724

So is there going to be any class balancing this year??

DuckFayth

I would love to get some clarification on:

• Is the reduction in CP stages nerfing the end amount each star can provide? EX: Fully invested stars going from 8% total increased damage to 4%.
• Will proc sets be able to crit again if they are going to be affected by player stats?
• You said "We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation to warfare" meaning the blue tree will get no more sub-constellations. Are more still planned for the green and red trees?

Urzigurumash

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Great point @Tommy_The_Gun . It's interesting that the Healing Procs will scale off Highest Resource, and Damage Procs will scale off Highest Damage. This should mean build types which have a spread of skills that have co-efficients more weighted towards Resource will see relatively better use of Healing Procs, and builds whose co-efficients favor Damage will see relatively better use of Damage Procs. I agree with you it would make more sense if Healing Procs scaled off Health, but the method described seems like it might lead to a wider variety of viable build types, and will increase the affinity of certain proc sets with certain classes, which I think is a desirable thing. A large complaint during this last proc meta was that strong procs diminished class identity, whereas they may now, possibly, elevate it.

Well, maybe, but I have my doubts. I just quickly looked at some classes and well... What Mag Sorc or Werewolf would do ?

On Werewolf you have % stamina boost and % weapon dmg boost - meaning that you could potentially run healing sets (like Bahraha / Livewire / Crimson and maybe you would not even need magicka sustain to cast expensive heal... because sets will do healing for you...

Same on Sorc. You could stack magicka (as Mag Sorcs do) and have free heals. As for stam Warden & Necro ? I am even afraid to think of that...

The thing is that high magicka / stamina and spell / weapon dmg almost always go in "pairs". By building for dmg, you build to have those. So sets will basically provide "free healing"

^ I simply fear that this change will simply be a "flip of a coin" and instead of tanky spec with "free dmg" for sets, we will have bursty spec with "free healing / survivability / tankyness " from sets...

Right, all true, and this last sentence was probably the big motivator to buff Free Damage Procs to begin with, since offensive stat scaled heals were in such an overtuned place post-Dragonhold. On the other hand, having Healing Procs scale off HP means they'd be strongest on Necros and Wardens, who probably need them the least - although Dark Cloak NBs could use a relative boost of some kind or another.

phantasmalD

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3)

Wasn't one of the benefits of sub-constellations that they make the CP tree infinitely expandable?
Isn't it a bit early to perma-cap them at three per tree?

VaranisArano

While your people are working on the Champion Point tree, can they spare a minute to double check the Plentiful Harvest passive?

If Plentiful Harvest is working correctly, my results should approach 50% in a large sample size.

Spoiler alert: They do not.



Result: 40% Doubled / 60% Single

If you want more data, look at the community's results here. Plentiful Harvest is NOT working right!
1.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/566457/plentiful-harvest-passive-does-not-equal-50-tested/p1
2.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/564705/plentiful-harvest-cp-star-underperforming/

WrathOfInnos

Will proc sets be able to crit? If they cannot crit they will remain weak in PvE, and strong with no downside in Malacath PvP builds.

Fischblut

With Update 30, we are continuing our dedication to this system by adding several new slotted stars for healing and support-focused builds. We also are keenly aware of the passive power this system added in the initial offering and the concerns you all have about getting optimal builds as soon as possible.

For example, I didn't ask to get more power faster I asked to get significant power increase in the end, even if it would take longer.
I've only earned ~40 CPs during last two festivals... Current weak CP system already makes me ignore the leveling. I tried to do 3-4 random normal dungeons for a few days, just to get one more green star permanently unlocked and not pay 3000 gold each time when I want to slot it... But I gave up very fast on that, cause it would not be worth it. Wise decision

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience.

Same as what we got in Plentiful Harvest perk of Green tree... We could have 100% chance to get double loot for investing more CPs, but in final version we only got 50% change for investing lower amount of CPs

I understand that it's reducing the new CP "power" even more, not really a surprise. Our characters will become weaker and weaker... Combined with Greymoor's year, and with some other changes and ideas for different game aspects, I know enough now

Parasaurolophus

Reducing the power of passive perks in CP in half looks very intimidating. What's the point?

Urzigurumash

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Will proc sets be able to crit? If they cannot crit they will remain weak in PvE, and strong with no downside in Malacath PvP builds.

I think it makes sense that they should Crit if they're getting Stat Scaling, but, on the other hand, the consequences of equipping a Mythic with a proc set in general will be even more severe - as in, you can't wear Balorgh, a 5 piece stat set, a 5 piece proc set, and a Mythic all at the same time. So until we see the numbers, we can't even be sure that a 5 piece stat set, 5 piece proc set, plus Malacath will necessarily be stronger than running no Mythic and 5+5+2 bothbarred. Right?

Granted, I think NMA, Hunding's, etc, could use a buff to help them stand-out over back-barrable stat buff sets like 7th, PA, Alchemist, etc., but some of the potentially strongest buff sets for Procs, depending how things work, like Swamp Raider or War Maiden, won't work with Malacath, Balorgh, and a proc set.

It's hard to say until we know how different types of sets interact. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Morag Tong has never buffed any Poison proc sets, but Swamp Raider does buff Poisoned status ticks? I can't remember.

motemeno

Rhygam wrote: »

"The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now. [...]

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks."

1. Who asked for these CP Changes? Literally just closed the skill cap for lower end players, [snip]
2. How, and in whitch form is this gonna work, that it actually works against this very valid point of "free damage"? With the amount of Weapon dmg you can get rn with an orc and just warrior and infused jewellery. Does that mean, that stam proc sets are going to be more damaging then magicka proc sets, given by how scaling works? How is this going to affect sets, that base their healing on damage done? (Should sets even do that?)
3. Why Can't You Just Revert the PVP Changes to pre gamebreaker patch?
4. Pls just nerf certain Proc Sets. Just plain nerf them.
5. Why is mala band still working with proc sets???

[snip]

Sadly, you're right.

YandereGirlfriend

So... certain sites have published values for the new sets and I have to say that the Frostbite set is looking very under-tuned at the moment. For such a niche set the bonus to Frost Damage should be significantly higher.

Remember, it is impossible to create a viable 100% Frost Damage rotation even on a Warden (since you have to both sacrifice Shalks on top of using a dubious spammable like Elemental Ring or Frost Reach).

To be blunt, I can't foresee any situation where I would wear this set over a more mainstream DPS set like Medusa or Mother's Sorrow.

As we all know, the chances to help pure elemental mages don't come around very often so please take the opportunity to further improve this set's tuning. Frost Mages worldwide are counting on you.

lucky_Sage

Sun7dance wrote: »

Imagine Sets like Leeching and Crimson would scale with your max. health...

What I was thinking those will be stronger