Update 30 Combat Preview

TheAlphaRaider

Lord_Imrhial wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.

Do you have any information on how this will affect Tanks that are doing solo content?

I understand the concerns with "free damage", but I would argue that something of that nature is needed (or at least scale-able) for Tanks in order to do solo content. When I first started playing again this year I remember that before I had proc sets I would spend 10 minutes alone clicking/auto-attacking a single dungeon boss down with just my abilities and auto-attacks, having proc sets still takes some time but its an absolute life-saver for both my joy and fingers and I don't dread trying to do stuff on my own anymore. I just really, really do not want it to return to that state again if proc sets scale with DPS-style stats leaving Tanks in the dust for solo content.

I love the group content (where Tanks are Tanks and DPS are DPS, and Heals are Heals), and I also enjoy some PVP (where proc sets have been in debate lately), but even more-so I love the solo-game that ESO offers and in being able to do things on my own - and if Tanks don't have a way to get "free damage" I think it will kill that aspect for me.

I don't pve solo often, but when I do, I have never seen it done with a tank. I see mag night blade and mag sorc solo builds. in fact, its the one thing alcast really helps me with. if you are referring to harbinger and crimson you'll have to just wait and see. I know it sucks, but they cant steer the game in ever direction. I dont see this affecting harbinger because the scaling is already built into the set. It returns damage 7% of your max health. You can buff that by adding malacath to your output. crimson should be a harder to mix with masx health sets, all though again, people will just need to run it with an overall damage set. I imagine new moon and clever alc will start creeping back up into view.

ealdwin

Abyssmol wrote: »

"Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher" - also make healing skills scale with max stamina or magicka. This way the build has to be well rounded. You cannot invest all in WP and have op proc damage and op heals at the same time.

Not a bad idea.

I've thought for a while that perhaps damage should scale from Max Magicka/Stamina + Spell/Weapon Damage while healing and shields scales from just Max Magicka/Stamina. That way there is still a path for well rounded builds with good damage and good heals (since heals and shields are the primary defensive options for most, if not all, Magicka specs in PVP), but in order to reach the best damage, one would have to sacrifice more potential for heals and shields, ie. let glass cannons really be glass cannons.

(Keeping the Max Magicka/Stamina in the damage equation would help make sure that Resource heavy races such as Breton, Redguard, and Bosmer don't become too further separated in their damage potential compared to races with boosts to raw Damage such as Orcs, Altmer, and Dunmer.)

Urzigurumash

ealdwin wrote: »

let glass cannons really be glass cannons.

Single-stat Green foods could use a big buff to help accentuate the trade-offs for not running a food with Max Health. Like, double, 10k each. Granted these would now buff Healing Procs, but it's not likely to be worth giving up Max Health to buff some other element of survivability when burst is as high as it is.

As much as people railed against Heavy Armor as being for "tanks" only, it seems everyone's chugging Tri-Pots and scarfing grimace proportions of Sugar Skulls - things ostensibly for "tanks".

Sedare38

Fine, I'll live with the changes. I lived through them when you nerfed stamblade archers to death a few years back, and I'll live through them now with my magblade as you're trying to effectively kill the burst they have from procs (they don't have as much without, not nearly as much as bowblades nor the sustain of other classes).

Having said that, YOU ZOS, need to effectively look at every class and do some balancing with their skills. Magblades are in desperate need of a makeover.

• You've stupidly killed 1 skill by making it a health for heal exchange--I'd love to see your reporting on how much that is used . . . . change it. Give us our damage back.
• Crippling Grasp travels slower than a tortoise with a broken leg, the damage on it isn't that fantastic, and neither is the dot. Put back the 30% movement speed given to the caster, OR make it undodgeable while increasing travel speed and dmg.
• Lotus fan's dot is a joke, increase it maybe 10-20%. And fix whatever issues it has. I'm tired of hopping in place when i'm on a flat surface and the target is within range in front of me . . .
• Increase Swallow Soul's efficacy to use your language. It's a ranged spammable with a teensy heal. Increase damage + hot and possibly range by maybe 3 meters.
• Do something about Soul Tether--The damage is great, but I have died countless times mid-cast in the air when the animation is pretty much over!!! This is a bit of a joke. Additionally, the radius is either broke or something else b/c I've cast it next to a person and it doesn't hit. Make it a globe or giant extruded circle b/c I have a feeling there are issues when a target is stunned or at elevation (like on a hill) and it won't hit properly.
• Improve Siphoning Attacks/Strikes--It doesn't give back enough of any stat and costs. Wardens have a friggin purge spammable, stam/mag battery that's free . . .
• Reduce the range of shadow teleport by maybe 3 meters so someone can't use it to drop from a d-ring just to go back up to it.
• Make Impale/killer's blade on par with Executioner
• Make NB's just have a stealth move speed buff/no penalty as a shadow passive--they use the shadows as a profession--they should have an edge in stealth as a class considering the myriad of things that can counter cloak/normal hiding and aoes, Curse, etc pretty much cancel it out.
• Fix the exploit where people still see a red dot on the compass of the stealthed enemy after the detect pot has wore off
• Bring back the eye on the immovable, magicka, detect pot--where did it go?

I'm sure others can add and I'm sure more will laugh, but suffice it to say your proc nerfs with regards to damage need more thought and testing. I chose that path b/c it was a way to get burst on a magblade. I sacrificed survivability for it knowing full well I'd have some awesome kills but a light breeze could kill me, and I'd gladly do it again despite the myriad of classes that somehow negate the Rock Paper Scissors of gaming and essentially can have all 3--great damage, great healing, great resists. Your balance has been broken for years . . . Nightblades seem to be the only real class that adhere the gaming rule b/c well their class abilities don't allow for any other way--you're either all damage and squish, or all tank/heal with meh damage, essentially being bait surviving until others can come in and mop up.

Oh and ban cheaters and kill off macros . . . people complain about procs being used by no-skilled players? How about 1 button for 5 abilities . . . Sick of seeing my death recount be 5 things by one person in less than a second and going back on the replay to see the dawnbreaker and executioner never animated, only 1 light attack of 2 and half a surpise attack or other ability . . .

katorga

ealdwin wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

"Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher" - also make healing skills scale with max stamina or magicka. This way the build has to be well rounded. You cannot invest all in WP and have op proc damage and op heals at the same time.

Not a bad idea.

I've thought for a while that perhaps damage should scale from Max Magicka/Stamina + Spell/Weapon Damage while healing and shields scales from just Max Magicka/Stamina. That way there is still a path for well rounded builds with good damage and good heals (since heals and shields are the primary defensive options for most, if not all, Magicka specs in PVP), but in order to reach the best damage, one would have to sacrifice more potential for heals and shields, ie. let glass cannons really be glass cannons.

(Keeping the Max Magicka/Stamina in the damage equation would help make sure that Resource heavy races such as Breton, Redguard, and Bosmer don't become too further separated in their damage potential compared to races with boosts to raw Damage such as Orcs, Altmer, and Dunmer.)

Where this ends is Dunmer being the best race period.

Halving all the CP passives will further imbalance the races as well.

MerguezMan

Waiiiit a second. We had 2 weeks of free respec to find out which CP allocation would fit our character, and now, about 3 months later, those CP are being moved, and said allocation is screwed ?

I want to play, not to spend 2h moving points every update.

Abyssmol

ZOS consider scaling proc sets with max resources (stamina/magicka) + WPD/SPD, not just WPD/SPD. WPD scales better because of passives from medium armor, plus unlike magicka sets, stamina sets have more variety of high WPD.

The way it is planned now, stamina proc sets would be stronger than magicka. (Solo PVP perspective)

argouru

Please finally fix the "Ancient Secrets" page in Nighthallow Keep so that it can be interacted with by all players again. It's been broken for me since early December and it's the last lead I need to get the ring. Thanks.

DonGodJoe

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

It is nice that you are making proc sets to scale with something.

But...

You are running into the risk of giving high dmg builds very strong survivability by adding strong healing (as healing "proc sets" will scale max offensive stat).

This will create almost same scenario as we have now, expect people will run healing sets and spec for maximum dmg (while now people spec for very "tanky" spec and have dmg from "proc sets").

I honestly believe that "proc sets" that provide healing or dmg shields - should scale with maximum health and not offensive stat.

^ That way players will have to chose if they want to have high dmg output or high survivability. Making healing sets to scale with max offensive stat might be a mistake. As far as I remember we already had this kind of problem where dmg shields scaled off max magicka, providing huge survivability for a magicka stacking builds - and because of that it was extremely easy to have a build with huge dmg output, and also - very tanky.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

(Just to clarify: By healing proc sets, I mean sets that only heal, and do not deal dmg. Sets that deal dmg & heal you for % dmg should scale with offensive stat. But healing portion should scale off max health).

I agree. And in my opinion skills that heals should scale with health and never with weapon or spell dmg. You make a build for extreme dmg and your vigor heala you more then a healer...

First heals should scale of spell damage only, not weapon damage and definitely not max. health (warden healing ability is clear proof of how broken it is ), but speaking of vigor, vigor is ability, not proc set tho, the scalling is pointed for proc sets.. or did i missed the context ?

Ranger209

TheAlphaRaider wrote: »

Lord_Imrhial wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.

Do you have any information on how this will affect Tanks that are doing solo content?

I understand the concerns with "free damage", but I would argue that something of that nature is needed (or at least scale-able) for Tanks in order to do solo content. When I first started playing again this year I remember that before I had proc sets I would spend 10 minutes alone clicking/auto-attacking a single dungeon boss down with just my abilities and auto-attacks, having proc sets still takes some time but its an absolute life-saver for both my joy and fingers and I don't dread trying to do stuff on my own anymore. I just really, really do not want it to return to that state again if proc sets scale with DPS-style stats leaving Tanks in the dust for solo content.

I love the group content (where Tanks are Tanks and DPS are DPS, and Heals are Heals), and I also enjoy some PVP (where proc sets have been in debate lately), but even more-so I love the solo-game that ESO offers and in being able to do things on my own - and if Tanks don't have a way to get "free damage" I think it will kill that aspect for me.

I don't pve solo often, but when I do, I have never seen it done with a tank. I see mag night blade and mag sorc solo builds. in fact, its the one thing alcast really helps me with. if you are referring to harbinger and crimson you'll have to just wait and see. I know it sucks, but they cant steer the game in ever direction. I dont see this affecting harbinger because the scaling is already built into the set. It returns damage 7% of your max health. You can buff that by adding malacath to your output. crimson should be a harder to mix with masx health sets, all though again, people will just need to run it with an overall damage set. I imagine new moon and clever alc will start creeping back up into view.

I'm guessing Harbinger will change to scale with weapon/spell damage as it returns damage?

joseayalac

Zalathorm wrote: »

What about the health and mitigation passives? Are you really going to nerf dps, pen, damage mitigation, and health all at once? I would like to see zos get godslayer on pts with these changes.

Also, Stam is even less viable

And relequen will be best in slot on mag.

Relequen is a proc set, so it will probably scale with offensive stats now, so it wouldn't be any effective on a mag character from what OP said.

twitch_zero

So does this mean proc sets will come back to Cyro with update 30?

VaranisArano

TheAlphaRaider wrote: »

Lord_Imrhial wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.

Do you have any information on how this will affect Tanks that are doing solo content?

I understand the concerns with "free damage", but I would argue that something of that nature is needed (or at least scale-able) for Tanks in order to do solo content. When I first started playing again this year I remember that before I had proc sets I would spend 10 minutes alone clicking/auto-attacking a single dungeon boss down with just my abilities and auto-attacks, having proc sets still takes some time but its an absolute life-saver for both my joy and fingers and I don't dread trying to do stuff on my own anymore. I just really, really do not want it to return to that state again if proc sets scale with DPS-style stats leaving Tanks in the dust for solo content.

I love the group content (where Tanks are Tanks and DPS are DPS, and Heals are Heals), and I also enjoy some PVP (where proc sets have been in debate lately), but even more-so I love the solo-game that ESO offers and in being able to do things on my own - and if Tanks don't have a way to get "free damage" I think it will kill that aspect for me.

I don't pve solo often, but when I do, I have never seen it done with a tank. I see mag night blade and mag sorc solo builds. in fact, its the one thing alcast really helps me with. if you are referring to harbinger and crimson you'll have to just wait and see. I know it sucks, but they cant steer the game in ever direction. I dont see this affecting harbinger because the scaling is already built into the set. It returns damage 7% of your max health. You can buff that by adding malacath to your output. crimson should be a harder to mix with masx health sets, all though again, people will just need to run it with an overall damage set. I imagine new moon and clever alc will start creeping back up into view.

It depends.

Some people prefer to play hybrids, which generally end up on the tanky side. Especially for people who want to do a mag/health/Stam split, instead of just mag/stam.

Some people, like me, end up playing a tank in overland content because they want to play with 1 Hand and Shield. Look, when I was new, I had no clue that I wasn't "supposed" to play a MagDK like it was Skyrim. Even now I'll sometimes quest on my tank just because then I get to see the mechanics on the quest bosses.

Some people have their idea for a roleplaying build where their character would wear heavy armor, so they end up questing as a Stam.

So while it's not common, and ZOS doesn't really balance the game for people who run overland content as a tank build, I can understand it as a valid concern from someone who's otherwise enjoying that playstyle.

techyeshic

It will be nice to see set variety back but hopefully with a more balanced proc set environment. Still can be screwed up if the base damage is almost as high as what a stat would provide. They still do not require resources spent nor the ability to actually push a button in lag. And I am concerned about health scaled based heals and Procs.

Athan1

I endorse these changes, well done!

ApostateHobo

So nerf all cp passives that are already pretty weak to begin with. Yeah that's totally not a bad idea at aaaallllll.

Stamblade

For the love of Akatosh, can you PLEASE make meticulous disassembly a PASSIVE, having to chose if I want to be a deconstructor of a flower picker is redundant and super annoying

Mr_Gallows

Stamblade wrote: »

For the love of Akatosh, can you PLEASE make meticulous disassembly a PASSIVE, having to chose if I want to be a deconstructor of a flower picker is redundant and super annoying

Why can't you pick both? Haven't really looked at the green trwe much.

GreenHere

Stamblade wrote: »

For the love of Akatosh, can you PLEASE make meticulous disassembly a PASSIVE, having to chose if I want to be a deconstructor of a flower picker is redundant and super annoying

Just in case you've missed it, the Jack of All Trades addon (pretty much) solves this annoyance by auto-slotting relevant stars the instant before you do the activity they pertain to. The only downside is the 30 second timer that ZOS built in to prevent switching around slotted stars "too often", so you can't do things like pickpocket, pick a flower, open a chest, and then pick another pocket all within that 30 second window (at least, not with the CP bonuses applied) because that's too much swapping in too short a period of time.

Unless you're on console, that is... in which case ZOS' bad game design kind of puts you in the "lol, sucks to be you" boat.

Rkindaleft

I'll have to test and read the PTS notes, but...

This is literally the first MMO that I have played that punishes players for speedy levelling or developing skill at the game.

I guess if you're only a housing player/roleplayer you can't really be nerfed.

VaranisArano

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

Stamblade wrote: »

For the love of Akatosh, can you PLEASE make meticulous disassembly a PASSIVE, having to chose if I want to be a deconstructor of a flower picker is redundant and super annoying

Why can't you pick both? Haven't really looked at the green trwe much.

You can, but then you are leaving something else out.

For example, I used to be able to do my writs, deconstruct some junk gear,, pick up a flower on the way to the turn in area, repair my armor at a vendor, pickpocket a few people, fence the loot, and then head off for my morning chest and mat farming loop without having to slot and unslot anything.

Now, if I want to make full use of the Champion Point slottables I unlocked, I need to swap around Meticulous Disassembly, Professional Upkeep, Friends in Low Places, and Infamous for the activities for which they are useful. Then I need to have Steed's Blessing, Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, and Treasure Hunter for my farming run.

It's a pain to swap around those slottables.

Or, I can simply forget about making full use of of CP slottables I unlocked. It's too much micromanagement. I keep forgetting to slot Friends in Low Places when I steal stuff. I keep forgetting to slot Professional Upkeep when I go to get my armor repaired. (Yes, I know there are addons that would automatically reconfigure my slots, but console players don't have have access to addons that band-aid bad game design.)

orion_1981usub17_ESO

katorga wrote: »

Where this ends is Dunmer being the best race period.

Halving all the CP passives will further imbalance the races as well.

Dunmer are simply ascending to their rightful place as masters of all, this shouldn't alarm anyone it is ordained. There will be plenty of spots for second place, so don't get to hurt.

twitch_zero wrote: »

So does this mean proc sets will come back to Cyro with update 30?

Yes they changed the no proc to three months and procs will return much changed by update 30. Though we dont know all the changes, the old cancer builds likely will receive a hammering in regards to scaling.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So... certain sites have published values for the new sets and I have to say that the Frostbite set is looking very under-tuned at the moment. For such a niche set the bonus to Frost Damage should be significantly higher.

Remember, it is impossible to create a viable 100% Frost Damage rotation even on a Warden (since you have to both sacrifice Shalks on top of using a dubious spammable like Elemental Ring or Frost Reach).

To be blunt, I can't foresee any situation where I would wear this set over a more mainstream DPS set like Medusa or Mother's Sorrow.

As we all know, the chances to help pure elemental mages don't come around very often so please take the opportunity to further improve this set's tuning. Frost Mages worldwide are counting on you.

Maybe just maybe, some of the animal companion will now do ice damage? A polar bear for the magika damage morph?
I can always hope

wolfie1.0.

As much as I appreciate the need to change combat, I would appreciate less need to change combat. Can we be assured this time that the changes will actually fix what needs to be fixed? And not break other things in the process? I understand that MMOs need a lot of work but they also need some sense of stability and we have been dealing with combat breaking changes for years now.

TheUndeadAmulet

The Proc set changes are... interesting. I can't really say much without knowing the actual numbers, although making damage proc sets scale only off WD/SD has the interesting side affect of indirectly nerfing races that don't have bonuses to WD/SD (Redguard, Argonian, Imperial, Wood Elf, Breton, Khajiit). Healing proc sets are also fairly uncommon so stacking resources becomes even more redundant if these changes go live.

In regards to the champion points changes... no. Just no. You are going about this all wrong.

You state that the issue is "the concerns you all have about getting optimal builds as soon as possible." So why is the solution to "greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience". Increasing the speed of players reaching the ceiling is a good thing. However, doing this by lowering the ceiling is counter-intuitive - Lower end players don't feel stronger, while high end players feel weaker. And people don't like feeling weaker.

And this change is coming directly off an approximate 10% DPS nerf from the last patch?

I sincerely hope that you rethink how you're changing the red-blue passives. Instead of reducing the total power in them, why not simply make it quicker for lower-end players to reach them? Instead of cutting, for example, "Hero's Vigor" from 280 health per stage max stages of 4, to 280 health per stage max stages of 2, why not cut the amount of stages but buff the amount granted to 560 to compensate - the end result is the same, but it is easier to reach those numbers. Lower end players feel stronger, while higher end players stay the same - nobody is nerfed, but you solve the concerns of people getting "optimal builds as soon as possible". It is easier to reach the ceiling, but the ceiling isn't lowered.

RottingAlien

Aegeides wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build

And you think the best moment to write this is after a 3-week-long-grind, yes?

well, the thing is. no one ever told you to or made you grind. so erm.. yeah.. there's that. real question is.. why grind in a non grindy game.

RottingAlien

BeNashty wrote: »

[snip] It's funny how a returning player can come back with sub 5 deaths on average in BGs considering that i'm playing against people using proc sets...To be honest, there are alot of casual players that just do not have the reflexes to keep up. Proc sets are not instant kills, if you run in 1v4, you should die, not be able to run around in the middle of the fray taking next to no damage. If you remove procs, lets see a nerf to armor/res and impen too.

[Edited for Baiting]

go against zaan, vatesheran's wrath of elements, venomous smite, and caluurion.
with 0 resource cost (yes, zero) they will give 110k+ raw damage in 10 seconds. even with the battlespirit passive, they'll do 55k damage over 10 seconds, and EVEN with your armor capped at 50% mitigation, they will deal 25k+ damage over 10 seconds with -again- zero resource cost. you literally have people in BGs literally just using weakness to elements + light atack spamming waiting for the procs to go off. Not sure how someone can think that is healthy or skilled.

katorga

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

As much as I appreciate the need to change combat, I would appreciate less need to change combat. Can we be assured this time that the changes will actually fix what needs to be fixed? And not break other things in the process? I understand that MMOs need a lot of work but they also need some sense of stability and we have been dealing with combat breaking changes for years now.

Oh, this will create all sorts of new imbalances.

The point is that procs overload a single global cooldown with damage. So the meta changes from health/proc to stat/proc builds, and players keep complaining.

Now if ZOS scales things like Crimson with health....then nothing changes at all.

Or ZOS might scale them so poorly that the damage is so low that no one uses them at all.

Mr_Gallows

RottingAlien wrote: »

BeNashty wrote: »

[snip] It's funny how a returning player can come back with sub 5 deaths on average in BGs considering that i'm playing against people using proc sets...To be honest, there are alot of casual players that just do not have the reflexes to keep up. Proc sets are not instant kills, if you run in 1v4, you should die, not be able to run around in the middle of the fray taking next to no damage. If you remove procs, lets see a nerf to armor/res and impen too.

[Edited for Baiting]

go against zaan, vatesheran's wrath of elements, venomous smite, and caluurion.
with 0 resource cost (yes, zero) they will give 110k+ raw damage in 10 seconds. even with the battlespirit passive, they'll do 55k damage over 10 seconds, and EVEN with your armor capped at 50% mitigation, they will deal 25k+ damage over 10 seconds with -again- zero resource cost. you literally have people in BGs literally just using weakness to elements + light atack spamming waiting for the procs to go off. Not sure how someone can think that is healthy or skilled.

Yep it is anti gameplay. No resource managememt, hyper regen heal tanking turning gameplay to crap. These proc sets are the worst addition to the game - both defensive and offensive procs. Passive effects are just stupod. If they were at least conditional enough for then to not be automatic, activating off actions you already do anyway. Yoi cannot add free damage without making it a requirememt to compete. There needs to be as big a downside as upside to these sets. First off they shold never give any of the stats used to increase their damage. Secondly they should be designed so they dp not give any free damage. They shoumd be comparable to hundings rage in terms of average damage increase. Third they should never add burst damage. With the way the game worls free burst damage is just bad. Spread the damage out by making the chance higher, the cooldowm shortee... but getting a burst of 10k+ damage for free in pvp is just stupid design, bad gameplay and boring.

LightYagami

Any intention to modify the freaking Crimson in PvP?