Update 30 Combat Preview

ealdwin

BrownChicken wrote: »

What about sustain proc sets? Like Eternal Vogor or Symphony/Grandwolf.

I’d assume no change to those values (except maybe a few power adjustments), since those mostly add situational bonuses to recovery, and recovery doesn’t scale from anything.

Jaraal

techyeshic wrote: »

along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performanc

What are "AE" abilities?

Perhaps a reference to the Archaic Engine which has problems handling so many calculations.

katorga

Starshadw wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

I am not a fan of magicka/stamina scaling because It destroys idea of hybridization, which IMHO was always one of the strongest aspects of TES Universe.

However, if you want to make move like a baron who moves like this make sets at least to scale with health. This way tank will not turn into dmg juggernauths but instead they could get an advantage in survivability.

Sadly, hybridization went out as truly viable a long time ago, though some folks (including me) still strive to make it work. (I'm with you, I really loved the early days, before stat-stacking happened). I don't see them changing this any time soon.

hybrid is more viable now than ever before...

• No more CP split between mag and stam builds...except for two passives, it works for both
• Unified penetration stats
• Unified crit stats
• free 1K weap/spell damage and higher off stat resource
• lots of sets offerering bi-stats or useful for either build
• weapons working with highest resource and offering bi-stat passives

When you see top end dps build for Magcro, for example, using Detonating Siphon, everything is basically hybridized.

fred4

As stated this looks pretty half-baked to me. Speaking as a PvPer here. The reality is that stamina builds tend to push much higher weapon damage than magicka builds push spell damage. Indeed historically magicka builds have had extra penetration from light armor, whereas stamina builds get extra weapon damage from medium. They still do and it's still not a flat value, but a multiplier. I am always astonished how easily typical, viable stamina builds push 5K+ weapon damage and magicka builds just don't. You may argue that the extra penetration that light armor magicka builds enjoy buffs procs for them, except ... what extra penetration? How many magicka builds do you see running around with a Maul? How many use Pierce Armor, e.g. how many have both major and minor pen buffs? I can see a magplar doing that, sure, and maybe a mag DK, but other magicka classes? Also: Would you really run two stamina weapons on a mag class with no chance for heavy attacks to restore your primary resource?

Destro staff gives you +8% damage done. 2H has better stats. Well, I guess that particular factor should still even out. Will it? Overall I see stamina builds scaling procs higher. Do they need procs that much more? No, they don't. In fact on the whole it is magicka builds, aside from sorc, who are said to be carried by procs more, as far as I'm aware. Making magicka proc sets scale better would not work. I've already encountered stamblades attacking me with Surprise Attack and Caluurion this patch.

I'm not saying the change will be bad or that I'm against it. However it is yet another sledgehammer approach that may very well throw up new problems. At what point are ZOS going to call it quits and actually fine-tune their game? Let's hope that fine-tuning goes along with these changes.

fred4

On the CP changes front, if we're going to lose passive extra stamina and magicka, I also think this will hit magicka characters harder in PvP. The current patch was great in that regard. I have about 15K stamina on my magicka characters without wearing anything special, such as Shacklebreaker, or using tri-stat food. Only prismatic enchants. This has been an important boon along with the light armor roll dodge changes. Having your stamina in the mid teens makes a difference.

Firstmep

techyeshic wrote: »

along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performanc

What are "AE" abilities?

Area effect I assume.

naarcx

fred4 wrote: »

You may argue that the extra penetration that light armor magicka builds enjoy buffs procs for them, except ... what extra penetration? How many magicka builds do you see running around with a Maul? How many use Pierce Armor, e.g. how many have both major and minor pen buffs? I can see a magplar doing that, sure, and maybe a mag DK, but other magicka classes? Also: Would you really run two stamina weapons on a mag class with no chance for heavy attacks to restore your primary resource?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've seen several top magblade players running dual mace with concealed weapon as their spammable in cp cyro this update. (Resto staff backbar with magicka drain poisons.)

Also, almost every magicka player ever runs elemental drain, so they are getting extra pen out of that at least. Granted that's not minor, but still, it's a guaranteed major 100% of the time, all the time, from them... Plus sharpened. So they are mostly walking around with a casual 15,000+ spell pen in cp pvp, just from their cp, staff, and armor passives.

Again, not saying you're wrong with how this scaling is going to work out in stam's favor... But just sayin.

LightYagami

Porc set scaling with base stats is good in general, but the cap should be set carefully...

My only concerns are...
1. if the proc sets scale with stats, will the 40k-50k health Wardens even more immortal in PvP?

2. Stamina builds generally have higher damage than magicka builds. Scaling procs on stam toons give them extra damage. Given that light armor (usually used by magika toons) already got nerfed to receive higher damage from stamina attacks, how do you balance magika vs stamina in PvP?

Altyrann

If proc sets are scaling, any chance we can get critical hits from them in PvE now?

hands0medevil

JoSePHRiNG

Nerfing CP stars is a thing I would never understand, many CP stars are not even worth putting a point into.

for Proc-sets do not nerf or change them directly in PVE just nerf them in PVP.

WhyMustItBe

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We also are keenly aware of the passive power this system added in the initial offering and the concerns you all have about getting optimal builds as soon as possible.

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience.

Forgive me as I do not intend to sound terse or snarky, but who exactly is "you all" in this context? I know I for one did not find myself saying after the CP 2.0 update, "this is nice but I sure wish they would nerf damage EVEN MORE."

It is ZOS's game to do with as they please, [snip]

[snip]

I know major updates require continual tweaking but it was my understanding this is what the PTS is for.

[Edited to remove Baiting and Bashing]

Inaya

@ZOS_BrianWheeler And what about the green tree that everyone has been complaining about? We still have to switch on the run to loot treasure chests?

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for various rule violations. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

xpolilla

After reading the whole tread, I will reserve my judgment on the new combat rules until after U30 drops on the PTS. Of course, asking questions and clarifications is absolutely legitimate; while speculating is also legitimate, drawing conclusions from speculations and, furthermore, getting mad at such conclusions is not, and it is annoying.

I propose this: before pulling hairs and tearing garments, or worse yet, running around like headless chickens, let's cultivate patience. Let's wait for the PTS. Let's try the things. Let's read the natch potes. Only then, questions acquire real meaning and we can see if speculations have merit or not.

Before that PTS update, let's go outside... and smell the roses.

katorga

fred4 wrote: »

As stated this looks pretty half-baked to me. Speaking as a PvPer here. The reality is that stamina builds tend to push much higher weapon damage than magicka builds push spell damage.

I tend to agree. It will be really, really interesting if they follow through with this path on skills and abilities....damage for damage skills and resource for healing skills. Man, that would shake things up.

Also not really fair to the classes and weapon lines that lack major sorcery/brutality.

silver1surfer69

I dont understand why you just put it as a given that proc sets are seen as "free". You eg have to sacrifice damage if you slot a proc set. Thats the main reason why pvp builds that aim for weapon/spell damage dont slot proc sets, because you will lose a lot of damage.

To give an example: If a player that is specialized on a damage build is forced to use proc sets, he will not instantly become just stronger, but will struggle at the beginning because he will loose a lot of healing...

ealdwin

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I dont understand why you just put it as a given that proc sets are seen as "free". You eg have to sacrifice damage if you slot a proc set. Thats the main reason why pvp builds that aim for weapon/spell damage dont slot proc sets, because you will lose a lot of damage.

Except that the concept of "free" damage that proc sets used to provide is from that in PVP it was possible to get more damage from combining proc sets than you could through stacking damage boosting stat sets. The damage without investment is why that damage is considered "free".

The result was builds that could rely on proc sets for all their damage and/or healing and invest everything else they could in to health and armor without worrying as much what their max magicka/stamina were or how much weapon/spell damage they had. In essence, these builds didn't have to make the same sacrifices that builds usually have to make.

The changes to proc sets in Update 30 will, in theory, make it so that those builds are not as possible as they were. That if you want good damage through proc sets, you either have to stack a bunch of procs that will do less damage or will have to invest in stats to boost the damage of more likely one proc set. If you want more proc set healing you need to invest in your Magicka or Stamina pool. There will now be a "cost" when you choose to use a set that procs damage or healing, thus eliminating the "free" nature of procs previously.

What that cost is and how appropriate that cost is has yet to be seen, but there will, in theory, be a cost.

Azurya

Jaraal wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performanc

What are "AE" abilities?

Perhaps a reference to the Archaic Engine which has problems handling so many calculations.

Made my day!!! ROFL

techyeshic

Firstmep wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performanc

What are "AE" abilities?

Area effect I assume.

Possibly. Its just usually called AOE and it feels like we have been down that road before.

WhyMustItBe

a game NEEDS a sense of PROGRESS to keep people interested. The process of building your character's strength. Of setting a goal, and WORKING towards that goal.

it seemed lowering the CP ceiling to make it easier/faster to achieve maximum power, when everyone else in the game has had that same process of building to gain power since the system launched, seems a little unfair.

Not only unfair but it deprives new players of that feeling of progress. Sure they might not log in with their first character and after a day be ready to raid top end content with the best guilds. But getting there is half the point of the game.

My question was why we feel compelled after years of it taking a certain time for players to reach a certain power level, to lower that time for the sake of new players upset about it taking too long?

Everyone else had to go through it. Why shouldn't they have to as well?

[Edit to remove discussing disciplinary actions]

Angalayond

I can live with the proc set changes, I don't like them but I can manage. I don't like that they have the potential to decrease flexibility. I like to use sets that I personally enjoy, even if that sometimes means unconventional combinations. I work very hard setting up my builds to make these viable. Given my experience making builds and the amount of cp I have I don't think this change will impact any of my characters drastically. There might even be some improvements.

What I do have a problem with is the cp change. Specifically, the decrease of passive levels. I'm all for helping the lower level players have a more fun experience, but I don't believe in decreasing the prowess of end game players to achieve this. People with lower cp are already likely hitting the 2 stages on at least some champion perks, so this really makes no difference for them. All this change will do is lower the higher cp players to their level. Some of us put a lot of time and effort into this game, some of us actually like grinding cp. I thought the point of CP 2.0 was to make a better experience for lower players but gibe the higher ones more opportunity to progress in interesting ways? Update 31 seems like it will negate that. Also, I can't see the point in raising the cp bar so high if you're decreasing the amount of places we have to put it. Sure, we can spread it out evenly across more stars but is that not the opposite of what CP 2.0 was going for in the first place? I thought we had this system put in place so we could make more specific builds instead of dropping even cp into everything.
I love CP 2.0 and I really enjoy slowly putting each point I earn into something and getting the satisfaction of unlocking a new stage after hours of work, so this change is very saddening to me. I'm not going to get angry, I'm not gonna quit the game or anything, I'll make it work, but I just think this is really sad and disappointing. Given the severe backlash to this idea that I have observed, I sincerely hope the devs will reconsider and show some love not just to the lower players, but to us end-gamers who have so much dedicated to and fondness for this great game.

Oh, and one more thing, I do think this is a good change for pvp. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if all of these changes applied only to pvp. Perhaps a new, non-proc set campaign could also be a good idea, regardless of how this updates turns out? I feel like having that option would make everyone happy, since there is such a divide of opinion on proc set use in Cyrodiil.

To anyone who takes the time to read this, and/or consider any of my feedback, you have my thanks. I do truly love this game and I hope I will continue to be able to partake in difficult group content after this update without significantly altering my beloved, trusted builds.

Mr_Gallows

So on the PTS... proc sets are worse because of scaling and a new mythic gives you 5k health, 10k armor, 500 health regen, but you cannot block.

[snip]

Don't you get procs... scaling will not help. It will still be free non-play damage if there is no trade off. [snip]

Mythics are great because they are one-piece. No need to make them so absolutely silly.

[edited for bashing]

techyeshic

Sounds like the new mythic would be great on stamplar where you can't block anyway during jab channel.

TheAlphaRaider

I don't know where to leave feedback for crimson on the PTS. But this nerf did not work. You buffed the one set you need to nerf. WAVE AT DEVS!!!!! WAVEEE!!!! DON"T RELEASE AS IS YOU ARE BUFFING THE WORST OF THE PROCS! I have said it before. CRIMSON!!!! DEVS LOOOKKKKK ITS CRIMSON DEVS FIX CRIMSON PLEASE.

Lab3360

Rhygam wrote: »

"The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now. [...]

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks."

1. Who asked for these CP Changes? Literally just closed the skill cap for lower end players, [snip]
2. How, and in whitch form is this gonna work, that it actually works against this very valid point of "free damage"? With the amount of Weapon dmg you can get rn with an orc and just warrior and infused jewellery. Does that mean, that stam proc sets are going to be more damaging then magicka proc sets, given by how scaling works? How is this going to affect sets, that base their healing on damage done? (Should sets even do that?)
3. Why Can't You Just Revert the PVP Changes to pre gamebreaker patch?
4. Pls just nerf certain Proc Sets. Just plain nerf them.
5. Why is mala band still working with proc sets???

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Spamming]

I would like an answer to the questions above.

LightYagami

TheAlphaRaider wrote: »

I don't know where to leave feedback for crimson on the PTS. But this nerf did not work. You buffed the one set you need to nerf. WAVE AT DEVS!!!!! WAVEEE!!!! DON"T RELEASE AS IS YOU ARE BUFFING THE WORST OF THE PROCS! I have said it before. CRIMSON!!!! DEVS LOOOKKKKK ITS CRIMSON DEVS FIX CRIMSON PLEASE.

Streamers / YouTubers already made video clips about how Crimson proc can deal over 20k damage per hit AND heal over 20k health at the same time with ZERO COST.

Even if we cut both damage and healing by half, it's still insanely strong.

This is insane in PvP given that the set is already Overpowered now. Why is it getting a BUFF!?

furiouslog

Lab3360 wrote: »

Rhygam wrote: »

"The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now. [...]

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks."

1. Who asked for these CP Changes? Literally just closed the skill cap for lower end players, [snip]
2. How, and in whitch form is this gonna work, that it actually works against this very valid point of "free damage"? With the amount of Weapon dmg you can get rn with an orc and just warrior and infused jewellery. Does that mean, that stam proc sets are going to be more damaging then magicka proc sets, given by how scaling works? How is this going to affect sets, that base their healing on damage done? (Should sets even do that?)
3. Why Can't You Just Revert the PVP Changes to pre gamebreaker patch?
4. Pls just nerf certain Proc Sets. Just plain nerf them.
5. Why is mala band still working with proc sets???

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Spamming]

I would like an answer to the questions above.

Questions never get answered. Never.

Xvorg

So, proc sets will be "nerfed" again...

Update 35 will address "elitism" (again) buffing proc sets (again), so everyone can feel "heroic" (again).



Don't forget to climb up the mountain with your rock... like poor old Sisyphus

MindOfTheSwarm

The solution is simple. I said it in another post. Have proc sets scale with Max Magicka and Max Stamina only. Another option is to just flat nerf them by 25% and then put in a champion point slottable node that buffs them by 25% but the node costs 100 cp. or a combination of the two.