Update 30 Combat Preview

MarioMario

Scaling on WD offensive proc set it's a double edged sword.

Health builds: big nerf
Oneshot builds: big buff

Rex-Umbra

Sounds good please make Cyrodiil the way it was on console after this many years no one is happy with none of the gear working. My PvP guild went from 3 full groups running to not even one full group and Greyhost went from poplocked to half full.

Idinuse

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Today, we’d like to share some new features and updates coming your way in Update 30! In this Update, we’re focusing on some concerns regarding item set procs and continuing our Champion System improvements, as well as several fixes for server performance and general bugs/balance. You’ll be able to read the full details in next week’s PTS patch notes.


Proc Sets

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way.

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats. In PVP, we expect lower efficacy from item set procs as builds for PVP typically tend to focus on several stats that will take away from the potential to deep dive into specializing into specific stats. This also means that if you opt to run a full build of proc sets, you’ll be trading off a large source of stats for your build and you’ll be limited to gaining them from passives, enchants, and consumables, significantly limiting your ability to build as you could before. It’s possible to get to the values of “proc sets” pre-U30 if you specialize your stats for it, as well as getting higher values than before if you go all in to building around their scaling, but we believe this will lead to a healthier balance of damage and healing versus the “free procs” you get now.


Champion System

In Update 29, we introduced the revamped Champion System and indicated we would build upon it in the future. With Update 30, we are continuing our dedication to this system by adding several new slotted stars for healing and support-focused builds. We also are keenly aware of the passive power this system added in the initial offering and the concerns you all have about getting optimal builds as soon as possible.

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks.


As always, you can also expect bug fixes and updates to existing item sets that you can read about in the PTS patch notes, along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performance. We hope you enjoy your time on the PTS and look forward to reading your feedback for Update 30 next week!

There are always players that are completely and utterly unaffected by any "restraints" you put on sets, stats or "builds". If it's at all possible in game, it will be used and abused to it's full cap value by some players. These are the ones that always have had max stat, max regen, max WD or SD, max penetration, max cap speed, and max mitigation no matter what nerfs you threw on the rest of the community's players. All at the same time. While having their mouse or keyboard play the game for them, much like having sets play for you, with set intervalls and combos.

I would like to know what you are planning to do about that.

Also, you say proc sets are cause of lag and [dismal] server performance due to constant strain on servers from conditional checks so you add them back with yet another conditional check - max stat? K.

Shields received heavy nerfs with the argument "It's not fair that you effectively can boost your health with just one skill". Yet boosting your DMG without lifting a finger is considered fair? Why not keep players actually playing, and not have sets play for them in PvP? Easy Mode? I Win Mechanics?

Mr_Gallows

Not impressed by that at all.

Too high regen is the major issue in this game. With the insanely high regen we see, balancing damage is almost impossible, because you have to rely on heavy burst only combined with dots. Regen is the main cause of your problems with balancing the game.

Ellimist_Entreri

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Firstly, always glad to see community concerns being addressed! Great stuff!
Now to the Opinion section ^_^

Proc Changes after listening to the community = Great!
-This sounds like a well thought out and flexible system with potential to support a large variety of builds and playstyles!

Champ Nerfs immediately following multiple weeks of players grinding in the new system & 2 events designed to incentivize players to use their time grinding experience for those champ points = Bad!
-The way this was described it sounds like you are just taking away more power on the top end and calling the floor raised. Lets hope you are just making it easier to reach the current values rather than reducing the player strength further.
UPDATE: So the power gain is being halved as well.

Masel wrote: »

This is false. They've just taken out stages, cutting power in half.

(Keep in mind much of your content was designed and developed around the previous champ system and player power constraints - you will have way more work on your hands retooling content so that it can be completed if you continue to nerf your playerbase; That team you have beating all your content with no champ doesn't count as a legitimate measure of content difficulty or representation of your player base - they are outliers. Continually weakening the majority of your playerbase because your ultra-elites make things look easy without retooling said content is a bad call. The average top end non cheese parse builds are down ~17% as it is which brings the current changes well within the stated intended target range. ^_^)

Champ Perks for LA/HA use = Great!
-Nice to have these back (:

Adjusting AoE effects for improved server performance = Great!
-Who doesn't like improved server performance!

GlorphNoldorin

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks.


As always, you can also expect bug fixes and updates to existing item sets that you can read about in the PTS patch notes, along with many adjustments to AE abilities for better server performance. We hope you enjoy your time on the PTS and look forward to reading your feedback for Update 30 next week!

When we are told we can expect bug fixes.....given overwhelming past experience......they mean this literally....only expect fixes, they of course wont come.

I am also curious if their combat testing extravaganza team has cleared all content including God slayer etc with these further reductions.

I would also like to say the impending possible reduction of mitigation etc provided by the soon to be reduced cp system provides me with no motivation to continue tanking. What with block hardly working, ranged taunts failing more often than not, who knows how proc sets like yolo will work.....enough is enough for me........nice work ZOS

etchedpixels

Some of this seems to make sense but it's a bit of a mess

My silly unkillable necrotank will be more unkillable because it's health and selfish health sets with health boosts.

I also worry how much it's going to boost all the annoying gank one shot and bomb builds.

Stamina penetration needs to be addressed still

The bear needs dealing with (slot bear on warden, slot strategic reserve, oh look I have 500 ultimate that's 1500 extra health regen a second forever)

Tank seems far too strong in U29 (and I say that as a tank). I've been doing dungeons in underpants for fun. It used to be a bit of effort whilst in U29 at least for normal dungeons its now a walk in the park and half my tanks are running around in gear like mother's sorrow because they simply don't need the heavy armour boosts so being able to dd and shield spam is a massive win even with the changes so far.

And none of this really addresses the overnerf of sustain particularly for healers and stam toons.

icAirborne

So basically you’re nerfing the already pretty mediocre CP system that so many players spent hours and hours grinding xp to get something worth while out of. And it is announced the day after the biggest double xp event, not before.

Stam toons get to struggle even more with even less pen, the stam and mag stars give only a 500 stat increase, and mitigation/healing passives will feel even less meaningful (woooo 2% healing received).

This change basically makes it so horizontal that there is no verticality to make it worthwhile or give the system longevity. This patch people had to decide between mitigation and maximising damage because of the shortage in available cp. I thought that was the entire goal of the system, having to make choices. Now pretty much everyone will have every passive, effectively removing any choice regarding passives, thus removing specialisation. The only extra “specialisation” that high cp players have now is whether or not they have to spend 3k gold to swap out a slottable star for another lmfao.

I cant for the life of me find any way that this change encourages any sort of goal that the new system was made to achieve. All it achieves is removing a lot of choice, weight to those same choices, and also the longevity from the system.

Fennwitty

It seems like the original concern with 'too much CP required' wasn't to do with the specific thresholds. It was the sticker-shock of going from 810 to 3600 overnight.

This would have been avoided with incremental cap raises spaced out over months.

alexlalas

Nerfing CP system that was just introduced? OK another good reason to play and explore different games. I'll be back when we have 1) objective performance improvemnt achieved; 2) proper progression / growth vision vs. nerfing-to-balance vision.

Mr_Gallows

icAirborne wrote: »

So basically you’re nerfing the already pretty mediocre CP system that so many players spent hours and hours grinding xp to get something worth while out of. And it is announced the day after the biggest double xp event, not before.

Stam toons get to struggle even more with even less pen, the stam and mag stars give only a 500 stat increase, and mitigation/healing passives will feel even less meaningful (woooo 2% healing received).

This change basically makes it so horizontal that there is no verticality to make it worthwhile or give the system longevity. This patch people had to decide between mitigation and maximising damage because of the shortage in available cp. I thought that was the entire goal of the system, having to make choices. Now pretty much everyone will have every passive, effectively removing any choice regarding passives, thus removing specialisation. The only extra “specialisation” that high cp players have now is whether or not they have to spend 3k gold to swap out a slottable star for another lmfao.

I cant for the life of me find any way that this change encourages any sort of goal that the new system was made to achieve. All it achieves is removing a lot of choice, weight to those same choices, and also the longevity from the system.

The vertivality is out of control when stacking stuff so at least they got that somewhat right. It should be about options for playstyle not degrees of OP discovery.

Firstmep

Leonis3491 wrote: »

I play every day on Battlegrounds and i record Eso-log stat after each one.
I see how players are unkillable, they have a full défensive build with damage procsets, for exemple MagWarden with Zaan/Winterborn/BlackRose/Vateshran, and more than 35k health, or 50k health Harbinger StamNecro.
For them Healing are done with skills and natural health regen not procset.
Most of compétitive players on bgs are playing this type of build.

Nerfing procsets will result on Nerfing on All Damage done during bgs and so all deaths. This will just make infinite and boring battle...

Expet that winter born, zaan vate magden will do far less dmg than before.
Assuming Zos gets the scaling right.
I do feel like making dmg procs only scale with wpn and spd is a mistake tho, that won't stop ppl to run high hp builds, but at least they will have to sacrafice mag/stam of they also want high dmg procs.

Toanis

Isn't scaling proc sets to stats undermining your efforts to reduce server-side calculations?

As for CP - I guess the question is whether the value of each stage is increasing accordingly. If everything gets cheaper, then sure, why not. If there are just not as many stages available anymore, then why bother? The passives aren't very much to begin with, instead of cutting them in half, just remove them and bake everything the passives would provide into level 50.

CaptainVenom

Any skill changes for classes?

Mr_Gallows

Firstmep wrote: »

Leonis3491 wrote: »

I play every day on Battlegrounds and i record Eso-log stat after each one.
I see how players are unkillable, they have a full défensive build with damage procsets, for exemple MagWarden with Zaan/Winterborn/BlackRose/Vateshran, and more than 35k health, or 50k health Harbinger StamNecro.
For them Healing are done with skills and natural health regen not procset.
Most of compétitive players on bgs are playing this type of build.

Nerfing procsets will result on Nerfing on All Damage done during bgs and so all deaths. This will just make infinite and boring battle...

Expet that winter born, zaan vate magden will do far less dmg than before.
Assuming Zos gets the scaling right.
I do feel like making dmg procs only scale with wpn and spd is a mistake tho, that won't stop ppl to run high hp builds, but at least they will have to sacrafice mag/stam of they also want high dmg procs.

Actually health stacking isn't the main reason... on xbox at least. I see few people with health above 30k. Health regen stacking with heals is the main problem.

Regens are out of control. For health it completely ruins damage/healing balance and for magica/stamina it destroys resource management balance. They should fix that and reduce passive regens a lot and instead force players to rely on active health regen and respurce management.

crysis992

icAirborne wrote: »

So basically you’re nerfing the already pretty mediocre CP system that so many players spent hours and hours grinding xp to get something worth while out of. And it is announced the day after the biggest double xp event, not before.

This change basically makes it so horizontal that there is no verticality to make it worthwhile or give the system longevity. This patch people had to decide between mitigation and maximising damage because of the shortage in available cp. I thought that was the entire goal of the system, having to make choices. Now pretty much everyone will have every passive, effectively removing any choice regarding passives, thus removing specialisation. The only extra “specialisation” that high cp players have now is whether or not they have to spend 3k gold to swap out a slottable star for another lmfao.

This exactly.
I'm currently cp 1804 (DD and PvE only) and have 141 unspent points in red, 11 in blue and 56 in green because I have already the 4 slottables and every relevant passive for DDs. Looks like the number of unspent points increases a lot next patch.
Now my champion points are just an increasing number like it was with CP1.0 above 810. Since we don't get a way to equip more than 4 stars per tree, there is no reason to level up.

coop500

Can I just say I am glad I spent my time in the event farming daily quests for gold gift boxes rather than XP...?

And I'm sorry to the poor guys, girls and others who DID mostly focus on farming XP during the boost and not the boxes.

CP change is cruel, I already went through there and decided nothing was really there to make me grind for, now I probably won't even bother opening the menu until I got hundreds of points to spend.

Sandman929

Toanis wrote: »

Isn't scaling proc sets to stats undermining your efforts to reduce server-side calculations?

Zero steps forward, one step back.

Leonis3491

Firstmep wrote: »

that won't stop ppl to run high hp builds, but at least they will have to sacrafice mag/stam of they also want high dmg procs.

They won't sacrifice survivability for Dmg because they (me first) are careful for one shot build like Clever Alchemist/Essence Thief/Balorg. Ppl will just receive less damage from proc sets and will be more unkillable...

Tafvsulke

Why not separate gear...flag dungeon and trial gear as PvE and disable the entire set in ALL PvP situations. Then you can make pure PvP flagged gear with PvP based bonuses that only work in PvP situations...

CaptainVenom

Tafvsulke wrote: »

Why not separate gear...flag dungeon and trial gear as PvE and disable the entire set in ALL PvP situations. Then you can make pure PvP flagged gear with PvP based bonuses that only work in PvP situations...

Only if you pay everyone their dreugh waxes, tempering alloys, rosins and chromium platings needed to make pvp gear.

lol dude

Sandman929

Tafvsulke wrote: »

Why not separate gear...flag dungeon and trial gear as PvE and disable the entire set in ALL PvP situations. Then you can make pure PvP flagged gear with PvP based bonuses that only work in PvP situations...

ZOS is never looking for ways to make PvPers stop farming dungeons.

Edit: although I certainly support the idea of taking all the sets I use in PvP out of dungeons and making them overland...I wouldn't mind not having to visit the content until I can recite the lines in my sleep.

Mr_Gallows

Tafvsulke wrote: »

Why not separate gear...flag dungeon and trial gear as PvE and disable the entire set in ALL PvP situations. Then you can make pure PvP flagged gear with PvP based bonuses that only work in PvP situations...

Precisely. Balance PvP and PvE gear seperately. Some sets are awesome and fun for PvE because bosses have no concerns about fair and balanced... it's a conpletely different game when it comes to PvP.

That would be the sound road forward, where balance will be much easier in the future.

Also severely limit regens for PvP or cap them at 1500-2000, because the passive regen destroys damage/healing balance plus resource management balance

Septimus_Magna

Wow, I didnt expect CP nerfs so soon.
I thought it would be expanded or shuffled around, time to bench the tank again..

Joy_Division

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!


Proc Sets

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher. Other sets that fall outside of that functionality will likely scale with Max Health, as well as a handful of other unique ways. Full details about which sets scale with which stats will be displayed in the tooltips for your item sets.

It will all depend on the numbers, willing to try, but I worry that heal sets are going to be based of max health. In no other RPG system I have ever played (and we are going back a long time) did designers scale anything significant off health/hit points, for good reason.

Champion System

In Update 29, we introduced the revamped Champion System and indicated we would build upon it in the future. With Update 30, we are continuing our dedication to this system by adding several new slotted stars for healing and support-focused builds. We also are keenly aware of the passive power this system added in the initial offering and the concerns you all have about getting optimal builds as soon as possible.

To address these concerns, we are reducing the number of stages on passive stars in the Warfare and Fitness constellations by two more stages, to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build in both of those constellations, while also taking some of the power out of the high-end experience. We’ve also added a new and final sub-constellation (each tree can have up to 3) in the Warfare tree focused on healing, offering new slottable stars that support the healing playstyle, and added a few old favorites from the original Champion System focused on heavy and light attack damage to offer some core damage bonuses for players using their basic attacks.

This was not what I was looking for. Am I reading this right that I'm basically getting hit with 8 nerfs just so some support stars - which I'm not going to slot anyway because I'm still restricted to having 4 blue and red slots - are being added?

IIRC, the main complaints about the CP reform boiled down to:

1. Needing an add-on to automatically change green slotted stars whenever you did common and routine activities like harvest a plant, decon drops, ride a horse, etc. Looks like I'll still have to do this
2. The amount of XP that was transferred over from the previous system.

How does nerfing what players can do (after which many have invested considerable resources + time the past couple months) help? I don;t recall anyone claiming that characters were too powerful with their 4 stars slotted. Are too many people getting Godslayer or something?

For future consideration, I am tired that "taking some of the power out of the high-end experience" is seen as a way to improve the game.

Starshadw

redspecter23 wrote: »

I see that sneaky nerf to cut all blue and red passives in half. Ouch.

Ooof. Yeah.

As a healer, I'm also concerned about the new healing sub-constellation - for those of us with less than 1500 CP, it's already very difficult to put together a viable PvP build that will keep you from exploding once you step into Cyrodiil. As long as the sub-constellation are passives, though, that could be useful.

Also? Sorry @ZOS_BrianWheeler - I don't think this new "scaling" proc set idea is going to do what you think it's going to do. Folks have long since figured out how to maximize their stats, so I suspect we're just going to end back up at the proc set meta, which is going to be annoying.

colossalvoids

Also just remembered that I could sell all those ~700 accumulated writs while prices were hot and not waste them for experience that will have no benefit going forward because... reasons?

Masel

Aegeides wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build

And you think the best moment to write this is after a 3-week-long-grind, yes?

I've been putting out warnings not to grind everywhere. They've even said to players directly and explicitly that they're considering further lowering passives weeks ago, shortly after FoA went to pts. This time, i can only blame players for grinding while the system hasn't been fleshed out tbh...

Tinolyn

Any chance you can fix the slow "requesting character load" loadin?

This has gotten worse and worse, to the point I just Alt-F4 and retry.

TequilaFire

Masel wrote: »

Aegeides wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

to a maximum of 2 stages per passive star. This will greatly lower the number of points required to get to a more optimal build

And you think the best moment to write this is after a 3-week-long-grind, yes?

I've been putting out warnings not to grind everywhere. They've even said to players directly and explicitly that they're considering further lowering passives weeks ago, shortly after FoA went to pts. This time, i can only blame players for grinding while the system hasn't been fleshed out tbh...

That could be solved by not releasing something till it is finished and tested.