Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

relentless_turnip

Is AOE the problem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gVIftIeAdw

I remember it running similar to this as recently as January of this year.
You did something to the game during U25 something you are not willing or not able to undo.

I understand you are referring to ballgroups in this statement and that isn't what is shown in this video.
Ballgroups have been here for a long time, but the biggest change i have personally seen to performance was after harrowstorms release.

technohic

^There was plenty to complain about performance wise in that video at the time, but that is a hell of a lot better than we have now and yes; it got worse update 25 for some reason. Position desyncs started happening a lot. Im not sold that they didn't want it to in order to level the playing field for APM that they soon brought up. I mean; just watching that Fengrush video and that was a thing but now if you go into a group like that, you have a hard time finishing off squishy targets becuase abilities don't fire, and when one of their spammed roots and CC hits you; goodnight because you cant break free.

relentless_turnip

sorry duplicate post...

Demonhunter

I also noticed that in Cyrodiil, the guards are buggy as hell and can't figure out if it's lag or something else. When I try to capture a resource and there is no one around it seems the guards become semi-frozen.

red_emu

What worries me the most is that there hasn't been a single comment on the matter from the devs despite hundreds of questions and pleads for clarification.

This only means one thing. The test is not really to decide if to make the changes or not. It's just to iron out 1% of the bugs that this will inevitably cause, then spend the next 12 months fixing the mess while completely ignoring the community feedback and keeping a tight lip on the matter.

So much for your work on improving communication ZOS 🙄

Elsonso

red_emu wrote: »

What worries me the most is that there hasn't been a single comment on the matter from the devs despite hundreds of questions and pleads for clarification.

It was a press release, not the start of a discussion.

stpdmonkey

I still do not understand how no one understands that if one person has crappy internet and lags due to it then the whole group lags. I've been witv groups where everyone was having a issue. Mainly one person got it bad. He left and everyone is fine. His input to the server was lagging and since what he does matters for everyone his exact skills used or whatever needs to be relayed to everyone and since he had bad lag everyonr did. There is not any solution for such a issue.

Slyclone

Zone is too big. Just cut it into 3 sections, and tell all the alliances they've won. Then limit player group size and add more shards. Eliminate all foliage, keep everyone in low resolution.

Pinja

stpdmonkey wrote: »

I still do not understand how no one understands that if one person has crappy internet and lags due to it then the whole group lags. I've been witv groups where everyone was having a issue. Mainly one person got it bad. He left and everyone is fine. His input to the server was lagging and since what he does matters for everyone his exact skills used or whatever needs to be relayed to everyone and since he had bad lag everyonr did. There is not any solution for such a issue.

@stpdmonkey I could use more info on this, like a video. I've discussed and theorized the reverse dysync where the server waits for other client responses before proceeding. It obviously wasn't always like that. If such lag exists it would require a mini software overhaul of the servers and how they deal with timing of calculations. It may bring back macro slice and lethal arrow stacks but if it alleviates the lag it's not so bad. They could also easily do a revision then reinforce GCD differently so that abilities can't fire all at once even if they appear on the server all at once. They still play but on the GCD after the delay.

Where do you see this lag? I would think everywhere.

If you want, throw the video up in this thread.

A macro slice/dysync looks like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohJ91nRKFe0
When they patched it out they probably lowered *changed performance and added a few glitches. Where it's like you can't attack a person until there client is under attack. Or you can't cast another ability until the server responds to you last qued ability.

These are theories, but someone else can read the code and be like yup or naw. The band aid may need a revision.

Kungfu

@ZOS_RichLambert Just had a great conversation with most of EP in Cyro zone chat today (Gray Host).
Is there any way you could add changing to non-CP to your test later this month... ?

I know little to nothing about your code & tiers. But, based on your description of the root cause of this issue (massive amounts of calculations required by AOEs), it stands to reason that calculating CP values adds to the sheer amount of calculations happening.

Surely removing those CP values from calculations entirely would at least mitigate a bit of this, would it not?

Basically, the zone conversation sounded like this: more people seem open to the idea of playing with no-CP than they do with cooldowns. Though it's clear that removing CP would not fix all of the problem. But surely it's worth a test in the high-population campaign, right?

Demonhunter

Like I said earlier, the Champion point CYRO EP Faction guilds are running politics, they don't want their brand of Cyro PVP to suffer and they are at it again. They know that cool downs will ultimately hurt their ZERG BALL (un-balanced gameplay) which favors them at the moment so we better tell Lambert not to test in CP CYRO server.

Kungfu wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert Just had a great conversation with most of EP in Cyro zone chat today (Gray Host).
Is there any way you could add changing to non-CP to your test later this month... ?

I know little to nothing about your code & tiers. But, based on your description of the root cause of this issue (massive amounts of calculations required by AOEs), it stands to reason that calculating CP values adds to the sheer amount of calculations happening.

Surely removing those CP values from calculations entirely would at least mitigate a bit of this, would it not?

Basically, the zone conversation sounded like this: more people seem open to the idea of playing with no-CP than they do with cooldowns. Though it's clear that removing CP would not fix all of the problem. But surely it's worth a test in the high-population campaign, right?

Oh and im curious Lambert, why specifically you have conversations with only EP factions? Why not engage in all of the community DC and AD included? Again, these people don't care about lag and performance, all their care about is un-balanced zerg ball gameplay which hurts the pvp game.

Lumsdenml

This game has been out for 6 years and it is funny that some people still think Cyrodiil was designed for small scale PVP...

Casterial

Any update to this @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom with the update from here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/536737/game-performance-improvements-preview-update-27


Is this still true?

scorpius2k1

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This game has been out for 6 years and it is funny that some people still think Cyrodiil was designed for small scale PVP...

Right? It's not like Cyro is the biggest zone in the entire game or anything. Now it's one of the emptiest zones in the entire game. Working as intended. /s

Lumsdenml

scorpius2k1 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This game has been out for 6 years and it is funny that some people still think Cyrodiil was designed for small scale PVP...

Right? It's not like Cyro is the biggest zone in the entire game or anything. Now it's one of the emptiest zones in the entire game. Working as intended. /s

I'm not arguing if it is working as intended or not, I'm simply stating that changes to help remove the large groups (ball zergs to those that don't like large scale pvp) are never going to happen because that was not, and as far as I know, is not the intent of Cyrodiil. The goal is to have large group battling large groups, so wishing for changes from the devs that try to scale that back are never going to happen.

Also, from my experience, performance has improved over the last month or so. Not where it should be, but visible improvement.

scorpius2k1

Lumsdenml wrote: »

scorpius2k1 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This game has been out for 6 years and it is funny that some people still think Cyrodiil was designed for small scale PVP...

Right? It's not like Cyro is the biggest zone in the entire game or anything. Now it's one of the emptiest zones in the entire game. Working as intended. /s

I'm not arguing if it is working as intended or not, I'm simply stating that changes to help remove the large groups (ball zergs to those that don't like large scale pvp) are never going to happen because that was not, and as far as I know, is not the intent of Cyrodiil. The goal is to have large group battling large groups, so wishing for changes from the devs that try to scale that back are never going to happen.

Also, from my experience, performance has improved over the last month or so. Not where it should be, but visible improvement.

I was totally agreeing with you btw, just in total sarcasm

Demonhunter

Umm, un-killable ball zergs and having large group battles is 2 different things. You can still have large group battles without the un-killable ball zergs which probably contributing to the lag, maybe not the only reason .... So I suspect when they ultimately decide to impliment ability cool-downs, the ball zerg aoe spamming might suffer and won't be OP anymore and might even improve performance.

Steel-256

3 second cooldown on puncturing sweeps.. lol the bread and butter for templars. What the crap are the devs doing? AOE is affecting the servers. SERIOUSLY! You implement cooldown on abilities that are the heart of classes will be the last draw for me. I'm done after reading this crap.

Demonhunter

Steel-256 wrote: »

3 second cooldown on puncturing sweeps.. lol the bread and butter for templars. What the crap are the devs doing? AOE is affecting the servers. SERIOUSLY! You implement cooldown on abilities that are the heart of classes will be the last draw for me. I'm done after reading this crap.

I kind of had the same reaction too since I use a templar, but if eventually it's going to even the playing field with all classes along with some resource balancing then it might work out. If puncturing sweeps is going to have a 3 second cool down then shadow cloak from the nightblade class will get a cool-down too? So on and so forth with every other ability etc....

Qbiken

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This game has been out for 6 years and it is funny that some people still think Cyrodiil was designed for small scale PVP...

It's clearly not designed for large scale pvp since it doesn't work 80% of the time.....

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Steel-256 wrote: »

3 second cooldown on puncturing sweeps.. lol the bread and butter for templars. What the crap are the devs doing? AOE is affecting the servers. SERIOUSLY! You implement cooldown on abilities that are the heart of classes will be the last draw for me. I'm done after reading this crap.

all mag have same force pulse also has it

Rex-Umbra

What days are these tests will there be a big announcement each time?

Cinbri

I have strong feeling that pvp community will prove once again that it prefer easy route and overwhelming majority of people in cyro during tests will be nightblades and stamina specs that wont be influenced by aoe tests (Actually not that different from what we have now apart from almost unexisting magblades ), turning tests into farce.
Hope I wrong.

Kungfu

Demonhunter wrote: »

Like I said earlier, the Champion point CYRO EP Faction guilds are running politics, they don't want their brand of Cyro PVP to suffer and they are at it again. They know that cool downs will ultimately hurt their ZERG BALL (un-balanced gameplay) which favors them at the moment so we better tell Lambert not to test in CP CYRO server.

Kungfu wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert Just had a great conversation with most of EP in Cyro zone chat today (Gray Host).
Is there any way you could add changing to non-CP to your test later this month... ?

I know little to nothing about your code & tiers. But, based on your description of the root cause of this issue (massive amounts of calculations required by AOEs), it stands to reason that calculating CP values adds to the sheer amount of calculations happening.

Surely removing those CP values from calculations entirely would at least mitigate a bit of this, would it not?

Basically, the zone conversation sounded like this: more people seem open to the idea of playing with no-CP than they do with cooldowns. Though it's clear that removing CP would not fix all of the problem. But surely it's worth a test in the high-population campaign, right?

Oh and im curious Lambert, why specifically you have conversations with only EP factions? Why not engage in all of the community DC and AD included? Again, these people don't care about lag and performance, all their care about is un-balanced zerg ball gameplay which hurts the pvp game.

I was not clear and you misunderstood my post. I was not saying he talked with us - I was telling him we talked in zone. I've never seen any ZOS rep speak at all, much less appear in-game since beta.

Joy_Division

Cinbri wrote: »

I have strong feeling that pvp community will prove once again that it prefer easy route and overwhelming majority of people in cyro during tests will be nightblades and stamina specs that wont be influenced by aoe tests (Actually not that different from what we have now apart from almost unexisting magblades ), turning tests into farce.
Hope I wrong.

As if the nerfs weren't enough, magplar is a hard pass for the entire test Cinbri.

technohic

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I have strong feeling that pvp community will prove once again that it prefer easy route and overwhelming majority of people in cyro during tests will be nightblades and stamina specs that wont be influenced by aoe tests (Actually not that different from what we have now apart from almost unexisting magblades ), turning tests into farce.
Hope I wrong.

As if the nerfs weren't enough, magplar is a hard pass for the entire test Cinbri.

I was debating stamplar with dizzy but the freaking armor buff counts as AOE so I can't hit that and ER close together. Just too restrictive to be worth while.

mustangmorgan31

ZOS has been wanting to slow combat down for a long time now. These "tests" are just a reason to say, "yes, AOE's affect performance and we are going to add horrible skill cool downs." We will never see the data from these tests and how can we honestly be sure that what they tell us is the truth? I don't see how the tests will be effective when people are going to be running single target builds and classes that benefit that playstyle. of course the performance will be better, because people will not be running the same toons they normally run. Come on ZOS. Just invest in a separate server for Cyro. One MEGA server is ridiculous in an MMO anyway.

Joy_Division

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I have strong feeling that pvp community will prove once again that it prefer easy route and overwhelming majority of people in cyro during tests will be nightblades and stamina specs that wont be influenced by aoe tests (Actually not that different from what we have now apart from almost unexisting magblades ), turning tests into farce.
Hope I wrong.

As if the nerfs weren't enough, magplar is a hard pass for the entire test Cinbri.

I was debating stamplar with dizzy but the freaking armor buff counts as AOE so I can't hit that and ER close together. Just too restrictive to be worth while.

LOL. The pointless rune has a point now: prevents you from using other skills for 3 seconds

Bergzorn

It has probably been suggested before (not gonna read 800 comments), but why, instead of introducing some sort of AOE cooldown followed by a re-design of a lot of AOE skills, don't they just re-design a good portion of the AOE skills into single-target skills right away?

Bashev

Bergzorn wrote: »

It has probably been suggested before (not gonna read 800 comments), but why, instead of introducing some sort of AOE cooldown followed by a re-design of a lot of AOE skills, don't they just re-design a good portion of the AOE skills into single-target skills right away?

Because if even only 1 AoE skill is available it will be used by the groups. Then the skill will be executed every second and the pressure on the server it will be the same.