PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

rprice1819_ESO

On a final note tonight. If you have an agree button you should have a disagree button. I just read a comment that I strongly disagreed with but you will never know what it was even though you know all the ones that I agreed with. This makes no sense. As a software designer I have written my share of survey apps and if you don't know what folk don't agree with you are missing half the picture. Just saying.

hashsnob

People really on here acting like weaving is hard or complex... I'm sorry, but.. its just tap tap >>> tap tap >>> tap tap.. its only 2 things... and one of them is always the same button. The level of complexity is almost non existent.

JoKi

Can we get like some initial reaction from the devs maybe?
The overwhelming majority of feedback seems to be negative, and while I personally haven't tested it cause I don't want to download the PTS, I don't think nerfing stronger playstyles because, well, I'll be blunt, not every chimpansee can pull them off is a very bad idea in my opinion.
Calling light attack weaving high APM is ridiculous, if done perfectly it's exactly 120 APM, that is incredibly low if you compare it to real high APM games and honestly, since every 2nd action is a simple left mouse click I hesitate to even say LA weaving is really 120 APM, more like 80 or 90 since you don't even move your right hand.
Since the proposed changes are out I completely stopped playing, and that won't change as long as there is now new information. (And I can imagine this is similar to a lot of other players, I dread HA metas like in Morrowind returning if this continues)

Sharee

JoKi wrote: »

Calling light attack weaving high APM is ridiculous, if done perfectly it's exactly 120 APM, that is incredibly low if you compare it to real high APM games ...

It is exactly 120 APM if you stand still in front of a target dummy weaving skills with light attacks and do nothing else.

JoKi

Sharee wrote: »

JoKi wrote: »

Calling light attack weaving high APM is ridiculous, if done perfectly it's exactly 120 APM, that is incredibly low if you compare it to real high APM games ...

It is exactly 120 APM if you stand still in front of a target dummy weaving skills with light attacks and do nothing else.

So? Unless you do vet trials you can do that for basically every fight. And, as I said, this is very low on the APM counter, and adding in movement, which I think is your point, does not raise that significantly.
Lets say summa summarum we are at about 200 APM with everything we are doing. that is enough to get to masters rank in Starcraft, a game that is really APM intensive

JinMori

Well, after seeing the new sets that are being introduced, although not final, there is a strong correlation to heavy attacks, which probably means the "suggestion" wasn't really as much a suggestion as saying that the sky is blue. Chances are it's gonna happen.

So my hope is this one that they change the sets, and second i have a few ideas for how to tackle this heavy attack vs light attack thing.

1 give sustain to both but heavy restores more than light. Or give sustain to none, and increase the general sustain somewhere else.

2 Buff heavy instead of nerfing light attacks, or if you really wanna nerf light attacks, give the damage lost back to abilities.

3 if heavy attack still do not come even close to light attacks, instead of buffing them even further, give it an empower like proc for your next attack, so you do not have to buff heavy attacks too much which would result in problems with burst in pvp, this is unlikely though.

As a side tangent, this race thing is a bit of a problem, because if you buff sustain, sustain races become useless, but if you nerf it, sustain races become kings, my suggestion is this. Allow us to choose our passives, but, the passives shared between races are only those that "make sense" for the race.

For example, altmer should not have access to swift warrior, just like orc should not have access to elemental talent, but don't be too conservative otherwise we will still run into the problem of, i wanna play this race, but this other race is so much better.

The suggestions themselves are not too bad, but as usual, your general execution is pretty bad, ok some people can get 90 k dps, so effing what? Are we gonna nerf the game into oblivion because some people can get 90 k dps?Come on.

Especially when there is a better alternative, which is add a new mode, normal vet and legendary or something like that, this way you would also not need to nerf the game every patch, and we could finally have some progression like an mmo should have. I would suggest you to take example from mythic plus in wow. You could even introduce this new difficulty paired with a new tier of armor, call it divine quality or something like that. Sure it's gonna be more difficult than just nerfing, but for sure more satisfying.

Also, the new trial sets, i am not liking them on bit, i would suggest to introduce magicka tzogwin.

NuclearPath

Something quite a few people are missing when it comes to these changes and how they look at them i

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

As a console player, I can only PTS at my friend's house. I won't be able to provide feedback on the implementation for a few days, but the direction and the idea here is awesome, and long overdue.

It makes intuitive sense that light attacks should damage less, and heavies should damage more. (Finally!) This will make the game's behind-the-scenes mechanics more accessible for players to jump in and make intuitive sense of the combat system without resorting to online guides.

LA resource return is awesome (but completely removing it from heavies seems like an overstep). The new sustain boost from LA's allows for reallocating other aspects of a build (glyphs, sets, races, sustain skills) to boost damage from SKILLS instead of LA's. This is good.

If this is the beginning of a larger "make combat sensible" plan, it's a perfect first step. (Second step, I suppose, if you count cost:damage standardization - but that still hasn't been implemented properly. Fix the outliers!)

Many things objectively wrong with this take:

First off, as a new player I've found many people simply spam light attacks as opposed to heavy attacking at all. It will be easier for them to sustain, but now they'll do far less damage. Secondly, light attack weaving (even on console) isn't that hard. I've played this game for exactly 6 years (I probably bought it about this time today 6 years ago) and I picked it up without any issue around 4 years ago. It always self intuitive, but just clicking in between skills and not is literally all it is to LA weaving. For consoles it's a pull of a trigger, but honestly back when I played on Xbox for a while, it was still just as easy. Up to the last point I'm going to make: People spent a long long time crafting builds, perfecting LA weaving, and working on their skills, all for this to dump on them and say, "Sorry, but we want the new players to have a better time." This is objectively wrong in so many senses. The entire point of a game like this is to level up, gear up, and work to make yourself better and more powerful so you can play in the end game. At this point it almost seems like this is just directly attacking those who've spent large amounts of time working to make themselves better and saying, "Hey guys, so everything you've worked to perfect in the past few years is gonna be for nothing" and that should never happen. If this change goes through a lot of the endgame community is going to be leaving, and then who's gonna get those new guys into the end game, help them into trials, and just help level them and help them get better? No one is, and overall people will simply either turn ESO into an exploration game, or the population will dwindle entirely. So to end off, what you've said is objectively wrong, as is this entire idea for a patch. The game works well as it currently is, so please don't mess it up.

LiquidPony

Sharee wrote: »

JoKi wrote: »

Calling light attack weaving high APM is ridiculous, if done perfectly it's exactly 120 APM, that is incredibly low if you compare it to real high APM games ...

It is exactly 120 APM if you stand still in front of a target dummy weaving skills with light attacks and do nothing else.

True.

And then in a "real" parse there's also bash weaving, and bar swapping, and synergies, and potions, and Necros have an off-GCD skill.

So for someone who parses a lot, a good parse is probably like 150-180 APM with no movement/blocking/dodging.

Varana

Unrelated question: Will there be any EU copy, or am I stuck in this PTS with no character to actually test things?

Cinbri

1. Off-balance: attacking off-balanced target should definitely not restore 6x amount of resources. It is ridiculous amount of resources you can get since off-balance doesn't expire after restored resource attack. 2x is enough for it, unless you planning to nerf all skills that have off-balance but than why even have such bonus implemented into them in 1st place
2. Revitalize: how it now work contradict changes to resto staff and heavy armor itself: old Revitalize was fitting theme of heavy armor - passive focused on sustain that granted by resource-restoring attack that deal low damage and it was fine because heavy armor itself got removed any passives that boost anything by damage (rip Wrath) and passive that work with something that sustaining instead of damage work as should, but now light attacks is what heavy attacks were, so passive should change to grant small portion of resource on light attacks as its the main resource restore attack that deal no damage. Just like new resto passive proc on both heavy and light attacks and have unique restore bonus. Maybe as unique bonus make Revitalize to restore additionaly off-resource, instead of main resource.
3. Frost staff: need better identity. Maybe instead of pointless shield on heavy attack that don't help in tanking especially now when heavy attacks are for dps, it could restore amount of stamina on light attacks or at least grant strong protective bonus on heavy attack just like resto heavy grant major mending.
4. Empower: after it now buffs only heavy attack you should rebalance skills that contradict having Empower. For example: Dark Flare - 1sec channel that grant bonus that require next 2sec to cast of heavy attack and as result it like 3sec of doing nothing but channeling staff being unprotected is completely unviable.
5. There is already popular builds that utilize lighting staff heavy attacks as they are most powerfull from destroy staff types. With latest changes death recap in PvP will be ~15k damage dealt by undodgeable, unblockable, ranged aoe heavy attack. That will be disaster.

Nord_Raseri

Just tested the only build I can really play and be viable on live. I am sitting 50k dps on live(Trial dummy). Tested doing light attacks only, and again skills(all dots) only. Pure LAs test was at 32k dps, pure skills was at 18k dps. Tested both a few times, same. Tested doing my rotation (keeping up dots while doing LAs), 50k dps. 78% nerf on LA is a 78% nerf to my spammable, I'll be losing almost 25k dps without taking in consideration the nerf to Bound Armaments(-8% LA damage) and the loss of Molag Kena. Please @ZOS_BrianWheeler don't go through with these nerfs, I'm barely viable as it is.

MorganaLaVey

@Varana You can just make new char with max. level if you look in the upper left corner in characrer creation. then you have containers in your inventory with all the possible items in the game to test.

to the Topic: I think the problem with this "low" APM / "high" APM is, that, as others allready explaind, there are a lot of good options to get 60k-70k dps with "low" APM, which is enough to clear all Vet. content -even vHoF. But normaly you dont see theese "low" AMP-Players complete vHoF & then complain about not being able to clear vSS HM etc. Normaly you see them get stuck in vMoL/ vDLC dungeon or even Basegame Vet's an then complain about APM

sry for bad english

SolaCorvi

For reference I play a glass cannon stamblade PVP PS4 NA EP if anyone wants to come find me :-). I don't have access to the PTS server so I can only speculate how this will affect my gameplay.

In general I'm against nerfing any skill and don't see why LA damage needs to be nerfed and for that matter why HA needs to be buffed. LA are used more than just weaving in between skills. For instance, my playstyle relies on Bow LA to keep pressure on my opponent and proc the spectral bow. Using CP and the bow passives I have seen my LA CRIT damage between 3 - 5k. The proposed change would put that output to 600 - 1k. This renders using LA as a pressure skill useless.

I also don't believe that LA should be the only basic skill that returns resources. If they must be changed, then a model where both HA/LA return resources that are scaled based on the output would be preferable. With that said in the current model I don't have an issue with recovery in open world, only in duels and BG, and I rarely rely on HA to restore but instead use pots or skills.

Part of my gameplay relies on using Off Balance and either a fully charged HA or Med attack to stun to initiate a burst combo. I always try to get the fully charge HA off but depending on the opponent this is not always feasible. I don't have a stun on my bar so this is one of my only CC. Removing the Med attack stun definitely would have a negative impact on my gameplay.

For the most part I disagree with all these changes and feel they should not be implemented as they appear to punish the dedicated/skilled player. I don't believe that they will solve the problem of the skill gap. Casual players who don't put in the time now to improve their game won't put in the time after these changes to improve either. The dedicated player will adjust and adapt and the skill gap will remain.

-Sola

peacenote

Re-posting my comments here, in the official discussion thread:

I am not a theory-crafter. Nor do I play one on TV. Nor, unfortunately, can I pretend to be one on PTS because I lack the hard drive space.

However I'd like to raise a few points as a longtime ESO healer, in addition to Code's well-thought out post that talks about DPS and tanks. Since these changes have been announced, I have been playing in my head as if they were already in place, thinking about how it might feel as a healer if I buffed my sustain with LAs. Here is what I'm thinking:

• This will make healing MORE BORING. Why? Because right now I use both LAs to build up my ultimate and HAs to restore resources. In this new environment, I will probably use HAs for nothing, because the DPS I can add as a healer won't be worth standing around channeling an attack.
• This will make healers (and probably tanks) even bigger TARGETS FOR GRIEFING. Why? I can unobtrusively weave in LAs right now to help support the group without someone saying "why are you doing that" because they are quick and I can stop them immediately if I need to change course. But HAs? I can see healers (and tanks) constantly being called out for trying to HA in almost any scenario.
• This will make healing LESS ADAPTIVE. Why? Because, similar to what was pointed out with tanks, we're losing a way to restore a larger amount of resources in a planned way. Healing is a priority system more than a rotation, so if I must actively heal by triggering abilities multiple times in a row, my ability to plan or adapt for that is gone. I've got potions, but that's it, and I had those before, so it's a straight up loss with regards to tools in my arsenal.
• Suggestions that raise the option of having other ways to make sustain more meaningful all fall flat and still make healing more simplistic. Make up for it in racials? I can't trigger those. I still have no way to restore resources in bulk. I can only pray to regen faster. So still I am less adaptive. Make up for it with enchants, mundus stones, etc.? Nope, still I'm completely reliant on a non-dynamic regen rate. Make up for it with armor procs? Everyone will "have to" run the same thing and it STILL takes it out of our direct control. Make up for it in abilities? Well, unless you're going to allow us to use MORE abilities per bar, you're back to making healing more boring, if I must add abilities to help with restoring resources because you've taken away my ability to do this via HA.
• This will be HORRIBLE for all of the folks who chose to be healers or tanks due to any kind of injury. I am in this category and it's why I never, ever play my werewolf character. Yes, as a healer or tank ideally you should LA to help with ultimate generation, but you can be an extremely effective player without frequent LAs. It is much easier to play these roles and join harder content than having to be a DPS who must parse a certain amount by spamming LAs. The ability to be competitive with a HA-only pet sorc build was taken away, and us injury-laden players raised the issue then. HOW is this the next logical step, from that perspective?? (As an aside, I suppose this is the one thing that might come back if these changes go live as-is... but sure, that's what we need, more DPS and less tanks and healers.)

Therefore, while I understand the stance some of you are taking when you say resource return shouldn't come from attacks, at this point in ESO's evolution, changing that would be detrimental to the healing (and tanking) experience. Without introducing another mechanic, the end result is just gutting those play styles to be even more simplistic, while increasing the requirement to be able to click fast vs. holding, which will make those roles even less desirable than they were before. This is a big problem with ESO (how many threads are there about fake tanks, fake healers, and long queues as a DPS player??) and while this change is largely about DPS its impact on the healing and tanking roles should not be downplayed. And frankly, these changes seem to be pretty unfortunate for those roles from where I'm sitting (though I'd welcome it if healers who are able tested these changes and stated otherwise).

Eiregirl

danthemann5 wrote: »

It makes sense for heavy attacks to do more damage from a risk versus reward standpoint. However, changing a core mechanic so drastically throws the entire game off balance. Why not leave light attacks alone and implement a sliding scale for heavy attack damage and resource restore based on charge time?

I agree with this. There is no good reason to remove restoring resources from heavy attacks.

xaraan

At this point my biggest problem with the change is that it's feeling like the whole "test" thing was a lie. If this was just a test that might not even come out, then why are trial sets being introduced that are built around a heavy attack meta?

If we can't trust you zos, then next time you have a test or give us a reason about some problem it will be meaningless?

ThyMorningGlory

Learning to light attack weave was the beginning of my end game trial experience. I have played since day 1 on Xbox and now pc. Weaving is fun and necessary to separate the practiced, experienced players from the players unwilling to put in the practice time on a dummy to elevate their skill and to compete for top trial scores and achievements. The heavy attack meta/ barbie house patch when all trials were broken and unplayable was the worst time in thus game’s history. Please don’t bring back the heavy attack meta. Light attack weaving is not difficult to learn. Why don’t you instead add it to the tutorial?

CaptainVenom

General
All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.

Does this mean I can do a one-handed & shield mage and have a nice damage from my spell damage? (with no magicka restore obviously).

Septimus_Magna

CaptainVenom wrote: »

General
All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.

Does this mean I can do a one-handed & shield mage and have a nice damage from my spell damage? (with no magicka restore obviously).

Yes, but you still deal physical damage.

TheFM

xaraan wrote: »

At this point my biggest problem with the change is that it's feeling like the whole "test" thing was a lie. If this was just a test that might not even come out, then why are trial sets being introduced that are built around a heavy attack meta?

If we can't trust you zos, then next time you have a test or give us a reason about some problem it will be meaningless?

It is really disheartening that we have had absolutely 0 feedback considering the pages of negative backlash to these proposed changes. And even Codes proposal was only acknowledged once, and since then absolute radio silence.

To me it seems they were hoping everyone would be happy with the changes, and since that is clearly not the case, they just are pushing it through anyway.

kojou

I'm just curious... Are there going to be updates to this PTS to try some of the suggestions and see how they work out?

Major_Lag

kojou wrote: »

I'm just curious... Are there going to be updates to this PTS to try some of the suggestions and see how they work out?

Doubt it - this whole farce is just smoke and mirrors, intended to pull the wool over our eyes and make us feel like our opinions matter (spoiler: they do not), while the changes will go Live more or less how they are on PTS right now.

TheFM

Major_Lag wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I'm just curious... Are there going to be updates to this PTS to try some of the suggestions and see how they work out?

Doubt it - this whole farce is just smoke and mirrors, intended to pull the wool over our eyes and make us feel like our opinions matter (spoiler: they do not), while the changes will go Live more or less how they are on PTS right now.

Its very telling that they said they wanted well thought out input, then they got tons of well thought out negative input, and then nothing, not even a peep.

actosh

TheFM wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I'm just curious... Are there going to be updates to this PTS to try some of the suggestions and see how they work out?

Doubt it - this whole farce is just smoke and mirrors, intended to pull the wool over our eyes and make us feel like our opinions matter (spoiler: they do not), while the changes will go Live more or less how they are on PTS right now.

Its very telling that they said they wanted well thought out input, then they got tons of well thought out negative input, and then nothing, not even a peep.

Some things never change. Just wait for them to listen to the "we want auto attack" and the "remove any sort of anicancel even if we die causewe cant dodge cancel to get out of a aoe" crowd.

MyPrist

YOU ARE ALL WRONG !!!

It is easy to make 30 k DPS with 1 skill, on some classes even 1 button ! What gap are you talking about ? Even with bad ping and hands - i can easelyu proof it:

It works on ANY class it use only 1 skill in rotation - no class skills used only wall and heavy attack button press (you can even do not releaase it)
https://youtu.be/hD8NFlWTrUg

Example that even crippled with no finger can do damage enough to pass most DLC dunguans. 27+r dps with only 1 button:
https://youtu.be/1gl8X_RDRJU

Ny the way it was my nord or imperial TANK on video - not even a character made for damage dealing !

I use insulating tape to fix mouse position and Magick the gathering card with tourtel to imitate how it is possible to press button with anything even if you have no arms ! It can be leg or nose for exampe or some thing else ... .

My ping is not best i play some times with VPN to make ping not 230 but 140 - 140 is a good ping for me, but in some time i have 100 pingit is perfect, but i always play with 140-200. I have not PC like alcast do i have not got 180 FPS and 40 ping, i have the same options like a lot of people who CRY hear but:

This video i made a long time ago for the same moaner like some here.

This video shows that with any class with no class skills with no working hands and only 1-2 buttons it is possible to do 25-30 k DPS with bad ping EASELY

The only thing you need is your BRAIN.

[Edit to remove bait]

VoidCommander

I would personally like to see light/heavy attack damage be based on your max stat. If they squeezed that change into Greymore I would be very happy.

Noxeee

It is simple.

Skill is earned, not given.

There are skill/performance gaps in everything life has to offer. EVERYTHING.

Want to get better? Practice. Don't have the time or don't want to? Do something else.

This entire concept of reducing a skill gap is absurd.

Asinine.

sekou_trayvond

Been thinking over the proposed changes. At first I was on board- change is interesting and all. But I've started to come around to either a change to LA/HA, but different implementation or simply retain status quo.

I'm personally stuck on the counterintuitive part of ZOS' reasoning. The proposed changes are really no more intuitive. I've seen others suggest and it is a thought I echo here- if intuitiveness is the goal, then divorce resource restore from L/HA altogether and simply utilize the current resource regen stats to do just that- resource regen. That would seem way more intuitive- especially to newer players.

Beyond that, if ZOS wants L/HA to be different and produce different benefits, then I suggest keeping LA as the source of ulti buildup and perhaps adding a physical/spell penetration aspect to HA?


In any event, I like the idea of changing how L/HA work in the game, I just disagree with the rationale provided. Nothing they've suggested is notably more intuitive to the average/new player.

Toc de Malsvi

Had a short time to test the other day. Sat on an iron atro for 30min or so.

Heavy attacks feel a lot better. The reduction in cast time and removal of snare were very nice.

Sustain was insane. Tried a heavy attack DK build, not remotely optimized. Light weaving dots on the back bar and then heavy attack weaving on the main bar. I don’t think I ever dropped below 90% resources.

I cannot really compare the damage accurately as I have not tested anything in over 8 months. But it didn’t seem that a heavy attack build was much improved from before.

I just wanted to say that the reduction in cast time and snare removal on the Bow felt considerably better. And I don’t think Hawkeye stacks dropped which is very nice.

BAWITDABAW

haven't tried the changes, but there's no way the skill gap is too large. i'll prolly uninstall if the game goes this direction.