PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

LiquidPony

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

Tailhole

TheFM wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

You can play the content, on normal. You should NOT be able to play the harder modes if you are unwilling to practice. Period. Just like everything in every game ever.

You can't practice if you don't have the skill

Sanguinor2

Tailhole wrote: »

Like I said, I'm not asking for lower apm players to have everything, I just want them to be able to participate. And I'm fine with higher apm players having better and results, and I expect them to be better at that department. I just want equal opportunities for everyone.

They can participate in all Content in normal difficulty and in most older Content in all difficulties. Doest mean that they get to participate in the top Groups without putting in the effort.
They all have the opportunity to improve and join the top Players eventually if they really want it.
Doesnt mean that they should join Godslayer prog just so they have equal opportunity.

Tailhole

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

katorga

I think it is problematic and potentially wrongheaded that ZOS saddled players with the negative term "low APM" rather than a positive term like "High Relaxation".

Now they are being denigrated as a group in the forums, kicked from PUG groups, and having their game experience negatively impacted due to ZOS's intolerant terminology.

Lol.

Tailhole

katorga wrote: »

I think it is problematic and potentially wrongheaded that ZOS saddled players with the negative term "low APM" rather than a positive term like "High Relaxation".

Now they are being denigrated as a group in the forums, kicked from PUG groups, and having their game experience negatively impacted due to ZOS's intolerant terminology.

Lol.

it's been like that even before the term tbh, if you didn't have enough dps people would just leave the group or vote kick you at the worst if you had less than 30k dps and offer buffs for the group at the same time.

LiquidPony

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

Tailhole

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

LiquidPony

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

​Greetings,
We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules around rude comments and baiting. Please be sure to keep discussions on civil and constructive​. If you have any questions about the actions taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.

Tailhole

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

yea, just makes up half of the dps... You do need it. If someone notices you not weaving they'll laugh in your face and kick you.

albertberku

I think that the changes are in the right direction. I would completely separate abilities and light/heavy attacks, as well (no weaving). I applause any effort for making this game`s combat less a mess of unclear sound effects, half animations, button spam, tank builds and fast movement abuse (I would make movement speed antiproportional with resistances. They should be either fast or tanky, but noth both). Received and given informations during PvP is extremely unclear. You cant understand what is going on, you just know it. And that knowledge comes only after hundreds of hours if you are really determined to keep up playing. It is not easy for a beginner. And it is sometimes not fun even for experienced ones.

This opinion comes from someone who does only pvp in fantasy mmorpgs or rpgs. And in ESO i have 12 characters, stamina and magicka for 6 classes. And i play with all of them. I have mastered this game`s combat system. It has to change, if you want a healthier gameplay. I dont agree with the argument of weaving, animation cancelling bringing a skill gap to the game. Does Dark Souls pvp have no skill gap? In Dark Souls for example, you instantly know what is happening. You know why you are dead, you know what mistakes you made. You see what hit you and you see who hit you. And still you die to the same experienced players again and again. In ESO, you look to your death recap, because you have no clue what was just happened. Then you see 2 dawnbreakers, 2 silver bolts, 1 nova. And you be like: "When did i got hit with two dawnbreakers? Didnt even see one of them...". Sheer amount of tanks chasing you with spamming dizzy swing and hoping that you are going to get stunned just at the right time and die to a lucky combo with all crits eventually is telling a lot about what is wrong with the current combat system.

Royaji

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

yea, just makes up half of the dps... You do need it. If someone notices you not weaving they'll laugh in your face and kick you.

Have I ever mentioned how much I love esologs because they make dealing with these crazy exaggerations so easy?

Here is a link to the highest DPS parse on the Iron Atro at the time of writing. Noticed how much DPS on this parse comes from Light Attacks? 11%. I'll even be nice and count Relequen into Light Attack damage, which brings us to 20%.

That's still a fair bit lower than "half of the DPS" you are throwing around here.

And the part about kicking I find amusing. ZOS can't force others to play with you. If they don't like you (be it for not weaving, low DPS or any other reason), they have all the rights to do it. Find a group which is less concerned with perfomance and you can happily complete any content.

Kolzki

If you can tap your finger to anything on the radio then you have higher apm than is required to light attack weave. Light attacks make up 20 to 25% of dps on magic characters or similar on stamina when combining light attack damage with damage from the relequen set.

Tailhole

Royaji wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

yea, just makes up half of the dps... You do need it. If someone notices you not weaving they'll laugh in your face and kick you.

Have I ever mentioned how much I love esologs because they make dealing with these crazy exaggerations so easy?

Here is a link to the highest DPS parse on the Iron Atro at the time of writing. Noticed how much DPS on this parse comes from Light Attacks? 11%. I'll even be nice and count Relequen into Light Attack damage, which brings us to 20%.

That's still a fair bit lower than "half of the DPS" you are throwing around here.

And the part about kicking I find amusing. ZOS can't force others to play with you. If they don't like you (be it for not weaving, low DPS or any other reason), they have all the rights to do it. Find a group which is less concerned with perfomance and you can happily complete any content.

oh yea, you're right, in a full rotation it's far less than half. I was thinking about weaving in general, spammable + light attacks, where light attack made up half the dps. And I did test it myself with log mods. Should have specified it a bit more clearly.

Kolzki

Tailhole wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

yea, just makes up half of the dps... You do need it. If someone notices you not weaving they'll laugh in your face and kick you.

Have I ever mentioned how much I love esologs because they make dealing with these crazy exaggerations so easy?

Here is a link to the highest DPS parse on the Iron Atro at the time of writing. Noticed how much DPS on this parse comes from Light Attacks? 11%. I'll even be nice and count Relequen into Light Attack damage, which brings us to 20%.

That's still a fair bit lower than "half of the DPS" you are throwing around here.

And the part about kicking I find amusing. ZOS can't force others to play with you. If they don't like you (be it for not weaving, low DPS or any other reason), they have all the rights to do it. Find a group which is less concerned with perfomance and you can happily complete any content.

oh yea, you're right, in a full rotation it's far less than half. I was thinking about weaving in general, spammable + light attacks, where light attack made up half the dps. And I did test it myself with log mods. Should have specified it a bit more clearly.

Lots more to dps than light attacks and a spammable. Dots do more damage than spamables and then there are procs from enchants, bleeds, burning, poisons, monster sets etc. High dps combines all of these.

Kolzki

And let’s not forget buffs, playing mechanics and not being dead.

LiquidPony

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

This is absolute nonsense.

Grinding for the best gear is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Building and learning proper rotations is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

Learning strategies and mechanics is "forced upon players to play the game effectively".

None of these things is any more or less important than the others. You don't see "high APM" teams getting Godslayer if they don't have meta gear or proper rotations and if they don't know mechanics or strategies.

So-called "low-APM players" can play all content in the game. That's why we have varying difficulty levels.

For builds, people just look up alcasts guides and copy it, no skill what so ever. Nothing forced.

Rotations, again people just look at videos and copy the buttons used, no skill besides finger dexterity.

Strategies, again... People look up guides and follow them, how to cheese boss, etc. Nothing is forced again, all you can do is skip this part if you don't have the skill to think of something for yourself.

And mechanics... Have you ever met a person in this game that sat all day writing down numbers of monsters and mechanics? Doubt it, that's what the wiki is for for most people.

Grinding is a bit more unfair, but you need good dps or apm to grind it effectively, so it evens it out.

High apm on the other hand literally prevents you from doing content and make people disrespect you.

Seems fair...

And more nonsense. What's clear here is that you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You think that top players are copying Alcast builds? It's the other way around, mate.

You think that top players are just parroting someone else's rotation? Bruh.

You think that top groups are copying guides and strategies to "cheese" bosses? Nah man, they're creating those strategies.

You think that top groups don't spend hours optimizing trash pulls and mapping out tactics to deal with mechanics? You're crazy.

Here's the thing: you can just copy an "Alcast build", you can just use strategies on his website, you can use the craftable/buyable "beginner gear" setups on his site, you can use rotations you find on YouTube, and you can be a sub-par player who has relatively low APM and can't weave very well, and guess what? You can still do all the content in the game.

But if you want to get better, you grind better gear. You optimize your setups and rotations for every fight in the game. You invent new strategies and adapt existing ones that work best for your group. You adapt new tactics to deal with boss mechs and to optimize pulls. You practice your rotations until you can do them blindfolded in real fights. All of these things are factors in what makes a "good player" and they all take effort to improve.

I'll take someone who isn't great at LA weaving but has meta gear, has a good rotation, knows how to handle mechanics, and knows good strategies and tactics and can help create new ones any day of the week over someone who has "high APM" but doesn't have any of those other things.

I'm not saying top players do that because they actually rely on skill. What I said is that no skill is required in those areas in order to be able to participate in end game content.

And the exact same thing is true of LA weaving and "APM". You don't need "high APM" to participate in end game content.

Do you participate in a lot of end game content?

yea, just makes up half of the dps... You do need it. If someone notices you not weaving they'll laugh in your face and kick you.

I didn't say anything about *not* weaving. There's a difference between not being good at weaving and not doing it at all.

Sort of like there's a difference between not having a great rotation and not doing one at all.

Or not being great at mechanics and not doing them at all.

Or not having meta gear and not having any gear at all.

Do you see how these parallels keep adding up?

And if you don't actually do a lot of end game content, then why do you think you know what is or isn't required to participate in it?

technohic

Am I that much in the minority that actually has liked the game I've been playing when it actually works? Seems to be all so many that welcome core gameplay changes like this, as well as wanting more hot bars, auction houses, stances, separate healing and damage stats to force a trinity. Pretty much anything a ton of games already do.

Is it that many that ZOS looks at it and says "the people who dont like this stuff are more than the players who do?" Is that the business decision?

TheFM

Tailhole wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

You can play the content, on normal. You should NOT be able to play the harder modes if you are unwilling to practice. Period. Just like everything in every game ever.

You can't practice if you don't have the skill

So youre telling me someone can learn to play street fighter competitively with their mouth, but people playing mmos cant practice and get better with arthritis when there are numerous options out there for alternative input devices?

I have arthritis, I have not so great eyes, and I practiced and got better. EVERYONE can get better, if you arent willing to put in the time, you dont deserve to finish the hardest content. Period.

Vahrokh

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

Well yeah but that wont Change unless you make the easiest builds the most rewarding and even then the former high APM Players will perform better.

Like I said, I'm not asking for lower apm players to have everything, I just want them to be able to participate. And I'm fine with higher apm players having better and results, and I expect them to be better at that department. I just want equal opportunities for everyone.

Define "participate". Because it's not LA weaving that will prevent you from joining good groups. It's your not being in their league that will.

Nobody is going to invite a welfare DPS into an hm vMOL team and not even into a vHOF team.

Vahrokh

Tailhole wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

You can play the content, on normal. You should NOT be able to play the harder modes if you are unwilling to practice. Period. Just like everything in every game ever.

You can't practice if you don't have the skill

If you don't even have the baseline skill to play medium content in a lower common denominator game (aka MMORPG), then you should practice something like making paper airplanes or something.

TheFM

technohic wrote: »

Am I that much in the minority that actually has liked the game I've been playing when it actually works? Seems to be all so many that welcome core gameplay changes like this, as well as wanting more hot bars, auction houses, stances, separate healing and damage stats to force a trinity. Pretty much anything a ton of games already do.

Is it that many that ZOS looks at it and says "the people who dont like this stuff are more than the players who do?" Is that the business decision?

You arent. Look at the actual testing pages, almost everyone is unhappy with these half baked ideas. The only idea that works for everyone so far is Codes idea, and even that imo should be dumped because the game is fine AS is when it comes to light and heavies. People just dont want to put in the effort and its plain as day.

Guy gets over his boundaries, learns to play street fighter competitively with is mouth, and people cant even get over themselves in this game and actually practice with their hands. Its insane. Ive never seen this kind of nonsense in any mmo ever. I played swtor for years before this game, and people just learned the mechanics and learned rotations and moved on, no one complained they had to practice. Good grief.

Toc de Malsvi

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The irony of "they chose a wrong game to begin with" is that the LA-weaving meta is not from the release. So it can be used backwards, those who want LA-meta chose a wrong game to begin with.

There's a big, big difference: LA weaving was made official by ZOS, even loading screens tell newbies about that. Backpedaling on that makes ESO a different game, not the game current populace came to play.

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You don't need monster helmets for normal dungeons. Fancy that.

I need then because it is fun to use them. Not everything is about needing for dps. Such a foreign concept for some, I know. I use Selene because it is fun on a bear warden. I use Iceheart because it is fun on ice warden. I use Zaan because it is fun on fire DK. I use Earthgore on a damage dealer because it is fun to proc a rain of blood.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

2nd Paragraph: You just said it yourself, its not particulary likely that you get what you Need from the golden and doing the dungeon makes it much easier. So there is your reason, less time spent waiting and it is more convenient.

1st Paragraph: Do a heavy attack build. You can clear near every Content with it, some vet hm Trials excluded. You dont Need a light attack build if you dont intend to compete. You can get ult gen from heavy attacks, and you can proc glyphs/poisons from either weapon abilities or heavy attacks just fine. Some sets that you can proc with light attacks you can also proc with heavy attacks. And there is also sets that exclusively buff heavy attacks.

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

Are you kidding me? I just posted a video of someone winning in street fighter against the best if the best with his mouth, are you seriously telling me people can't overcome still? Get real.

Who cares about that video?

You keep parroting saying people cannot overcome the gap, yet I posted a video proving your 100 percent wrong. You say not everyone can overcome, and we proved you wrong. lol.

Do you know logic? If yes then you must know that universal quantification ("everyone") can't be proven by existential quantification ("there is example"). Your video means nothing and proves nothing.

It’s worse than even that. The video is of a game that requires very different input to ESO.

Fighting games like Tekken often encourage button mashing and swiping such that pushing the wrong button has no effect or simply fails a combo. In ESO spamming input can lock you into spells, freeze the game, or fail to register inputs at all. The player in the video isn’t using Triggers or Bumpers at all.

This is an Apples to Ferrets comparison very typical of political arguments.

Toc de Malsvi

TheFM wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

You can play the content, on normal. You should NOT be able to play the harder modes if you are unwilling to practice. Period. Just like everything in every game ever.

You can't practice if you don't have the skill

So youre telling me someone can learn to play street fighter competitively with their mouth, but people playing mmos cant practice and get better with arthritis when there are numerous options out there for alternative input devices?

I have arthritis, I have not so great eyes, and I practiced and got better. EVERYONE can get better, if you arent willing to put in the time, you dont deserve to finish the hardest content. Period.

This is a intellectually dishonest argument. You are framing things as equal that are not equal.

One is a semi-defined standard, i.e. play street fighter competitively with mouth. The other is completely undefined, “get better”, there is no meaning behind that. A player doing 1k dps, now does 1001 dps, they got “better”.

Further there is no connection between the two other than being video games where input is given in some form. Street Fighter is not analogous to ESO, they are very different games requiring very different skills and performances.

Your repetition of this example does not hold because to anyone with a brain they can see that these are not comparable. Even if they cannot explain why.

Yes someone can learn to play a guitar with their toes. While at the same time someone else can never play in the NFL even as a backup. Because someone with a disability overcame their disability on one specific area does not mean that someone else’s disability does not prevent them from performing in a different area entirely.

Ranger209

I like the concepts they are putting forward here, but I understand the concerns. What they are proposing can create varying types of effective combat styles, but to do so requires a little more than what they are doing. The only way this works is if predominantly heavy attack weaving, predominantly light attack weaving, and multiple speed attack weaving all yield similar results.

This is how I would approach it mathematically. For the sake of simple math we will say that on live a given build has a light attack that does 2k damage and a spammable ability that does 8k damage for a combined 10k dps. If they want to make light attacks on this build do 400 damage then the spammable needs to be buffed so that it does 9600 for the same 10k dps. DOTS, AOES, and whatnot do not need to be touched, just this light attack/spammable combo adjustment so that in the end one cycle yields the same damage.

The next thing is to have heavy attacks do an appropriate amount of damage, and what is appropriate could be argued, but I will give you my take. I think it should do 110% of the dps that a light attack/spammable does. So it should do 11kdps. Heavy attacks while easier to perform from a pure button pushing standpoint are more difficult to land on moving targets, and leave you somewhat more vulnerable as they take longer to complete one action. So if a 2 hander heavy takes 2 seconds to complete it should do 22k damage over that 2 seconds to achieve 11kdps.

The other thing I think this system needs is that when you complete a heavy attack your next light attack will either give a 50% increase to the damage of your next light attack, or automatically crit your next light attack. What this does is create 3 levels of dps that are all similar, but rewards added complexity in weaving with slight dps increases. So a heavy attack followed by a buffed light attack followed by a spammable is the best dps combo.

So in simple terms player one's weave may look like dot, dot, dot, dot, HA, HA, repeat and perform ok.
Player two's weave may look like LA, dot, LA, dot, LA, dot, LA, dot, LA, Sp, LA, Sp, LA, Sp, LA, Sp, repeat performing slightly better.
Player three's weave may look like LA, dot, LA, dot, LA, dot, LA, dot, HA, LA, Sp, HA, repeat performing best of all.

This would actually create 3 styles of comparable dps weaves, one slower, one quicker, and one variable speed that is most optimal. I think what they are attempting is a step in the right direction, but they need to make all of those playstyles comparable while offering slight dps increases as the complexity of the weave increases.

Aelorin

I have tested a bit on the PTS.I find myself a medium APM player. With the same gear I noticed my DPS dropped by 5k to 25k, instead of 30k on live.
Adjusting for less regen and more spell power I could go to max 27k DPS.

3x Light attacking for extra regen is not fun. I'd rather do a heavy attack then.
More damage for the heavy attack is fun, but I miss the resource return.

Watching out for off balance for increased regen or damage is tedious. Also getting a heavy attack into a rotation is even harder then light attack weaving. Especially for classes with difficult timers like a magnecro. WIth a more simple rotation for magsorc, this was less of a problem.

I do not think this change will narrow the gap between the good and the medium or the bad. The high APM players will be able to ignore regen on jewelry and food all together. A medium APM playersis not able to do that, because he misses light attacks more, so he has less regen from the light attacks. I tried to, but then I got out of magicka, so no skill, so less DPS.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce the gap, then I think they need to adress the animation cancelling.

I am not sure if I want animation cancelling out of the game. Maybe we should be able to test that too, before I could give a decent opinion about that.

Cirantille

I don't know if you are aware but your game does not function.

Is this really your priority?

You do not serve what I paid for. I paid for a game that I am able to play.

I already quit something I deeply loved, Cyrodiil. Because no skills or LA s fire and it is impossible to play without disconnects.
You advertise game as if it "can" contain big battles however you approach 10 people and start lagging.

Ok, I thought, I would give veteran stuff a try. How is that even possible that when you go from normal difficulty to veteran, it is a lagfest again?

In the middle of a trial everything stops and moves fast as flash, my magicka abilities start costing stamina??, people disconnect, my skills are locked so I can not cast.

Questing is fine though. You can quest around all day long and won't notice any lag.

How is this fair to all of people paid for this game?

I want to see what I paid for.

So stop doing other things around the issue and focus on performance.

The only thing working in your game is questing and crafting.

rprice1819_ESO

Some of us from an EP faction guild just tried out the new changes. I know I really liked the changes and it sounded like some of the others did too. Building back resources seems way faster with light attacks and heavy attacks seem to do more of what you would expect. The non cp ncps are op, lol. I really wish that there had been some folk on from other factions. I set up a Discord server for cross faction coms for testing stuff, you know, getting folk together at certain times to try things out. I don't think I can post it here but if you want to message me in game @Hrogthor I'd be happy to give you the link to share around. It would be nice if the ZOS team was motivated enough to have PTS events to get some real feedback but I guess they are busy with important stuff. But, yeah, I think they did good with the light/heavy attack changes. Just my opinion.

rprice1819_ESO

Also, I was on a couple days ago building a new char for testing and noticed that a lot of sets that had heavy or light attack aspects had not been changed. I am sure that ZOS was planning to address this before they made these changes live but I just wanted to point it out in case they forgot. Sorry if someone else mentioned this previously but I have been drinking heavily and if I don't comment when I think about it I will forget. /hic