PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

Sanguinor2

Olauron wrote: »

You fail to see the whole picture. If some content is not for someone then that someone will not buy this content. If this content is not bought by a large percentage of players then the question is why develop it, is it really worth developing it and what to do to convince that percentage to buy that content. A hint: telling to overcome will not convince that percentage to buy that content.

What if I told you that everyone can just do this Content in normal mode? It is the exact same Content except so much easier that you can ignore everything and just enjoy the ride. And what if I told you that normal Content gets developed at the same time as vet and hardmode Content since you just Need to Change several values but the Content remains the same?

Olauron

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

John_Falstaff

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

See, you found a way - one month of ESO+, three strong guildies, and you have your monster helms (and I'm not even counting that they're available at Golden sometimes), and people who enjoy dungeons themselves (as opposed to needing gear) will run normal or vet, whichever they're capable of. Still see no issue.

Sanguinor2

Olauron wrote: »

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You can buy Monster helmets from the golden and base game Veteran dungeon requirements are very low, you dont Need perfect light attack weaving (or any light attack weaving at all, just do a heavy attack build) to clear them reliably without getting carried.
So technically you dont even Need to enter any dungeon for a Monster helmet of Course its easier to get them from vet Dungeons instead of the golden but you are not restricted to only vet Dungeons if you absolutely dont want to enter those.

martinhpb16_ESO

JoeBaze wrote: »

With everyone talking about the changes to light attacks I decided to investigate the other end of things and see what heavy attacks are like. Feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong or incorrect. The intent is more directed at PvP, namely places where CP is enabled. My goal was to maximize the damage done at the instant of a heavy attack. This is not limited to the damage caused by the heavy attack itself but also includes buffs and bonuses applied at the instant the heavy attack lands. I didn't have anyone on PTS to help me so I ended up testing on a robust human target dummy (18200 resistance). With self supplied buffs, skills, sets etc... I was able to land a an attack + set + enchant for 36,163 without crit. If you include the crit which was 1.820x the normal value, this single attack was dealing 65,817. If we were to include battle spirit this would be halved and still land for about 32,909. Now, granted there are extra applicable defences to players, CP, crit resist, and blocking in place so I'm sure we wouldn't see a number like this in Cyrodiil. However even if you chop off something like 50% of the damage, you are still faced with approximately 16,454 from a heavy attack! All I would need to do is find a player who is not paying attention to block and hit them with one HEAVY ATTACK and they would be in ruin.

As a bonus I attacked a Trials dummy that provides all the trials buffs and I was able to land a full crit at 107,304. The multiplier was 1.970x.

I've tested a heavy attack rotation on dummies and real people and they are very different experiences. Thanks for the post though.

Olauron

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

See, you found a way - one month of ESO+, three strong guildies, and you have your monster helms (and I'm not even counting that they're available at Golden sometimes), and people who enjoy dungeons themselves (as opposed to needing gear) will run normal or vet, whichever they're capable of. Still see no issue.

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You can buy Monster helmets from the golden and base game Veteran dungeon requirements are very low, you dont Need perfect light attack weaving (or any light attack weaving at all, just do a heavy attack build) to clear them reliably without getting carried.
So technically you dont even Need to enter any dungeon for a Monster helmet of Course its easier to get them from vet Dungeons instead of the golden but you are not restricted to only vet Dungeons if you absolutely dont want to enter those.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

Sanguinor2

Olauron wrote: »

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

2nd Paragraph: You just said it yourself, its not particulary likely that you get what you Need from the golden and doing the dungeon makes it much easier. So there is your reason, less time spent waiting and it is more convenient.

1st Paragraph: Do a heavy attack build. You can clear near every Content with it, some vet hm Trials excluded. You dont Need a light attack build if you dont intend to compete. You can get ult gen from heavy attacks, and you can proc glyphs/poisons from either weapon abilities or heavy attacks just fine. Some sets that you can proc with light attacks you can also proc with heavy attacks. And there is also sets that exclusively buff heavy attacks.

Olauron

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

2nd Paragraph: You just said it yourself, its not particulary likely that you get what you Need from the golden and doing the dungeon makes it much easier. So there is your reason, less time spent waiting and it is more convenient.

1st Paragraph: Do a heavy attack build. You can clear near every Content with it, some vet hm Trials excluded. You dont Need a light attack build if you dont intend to compete. You can get ult gen from heavy attacks, and you can proc glyphs/poisons from either weapon abilities or heavy attacks just fine. Some sets that you can proc with light attacks you can also proc with heavy attacks. And there is also sets that exclusively buff heavy attacks.

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

Tailhole

[quote="TheFM;c-6676352"
What do we have to lose? Obviously you dont play pvp. The immortal tank builds will be even more immortal after this. And be like this guy, dont whine you have to practice.

https://youtu.be/N2SNwKvWiVc[/quote]

You clearly you didn't read my post... I said PvP was my main focus, and I've been playing actively for 3 years now. And tank builds are a great example of why this change should go through. People like me once, just gave up on the idea of dps, because of high apm. So you might as well make a tank build so you can at least enjoy a little of what pvp has to offer. For us high apm players are just as annoying as tanks are for you...

Sanguinor2

Olauron wrote: »

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

Not everyone will pay, but since they are in eso+ anyway not many will buy dungeon dlcs in General. In fact Im sure that many would prefer paying for more Zone dlcs especially with the year Long Story and solo Players Feeling like they get locked out of some of the Story because they dont want to Play Group Content.
My Problem with the changes isnt that they buff heavy attack builds or want to make weaker Players stronger. My issue is that they nerf top Players to "close the gap" when the main reason the gap is as large as it is is that Combat does not get explained by the game. If they just buffed heavies and flipped the Sustain around I wouldnt care at all, but for some reason These changes have to come with a 78% Damage nerf to light attacks.

Tailhole

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Sanguinor2

Tailhole wrote: »

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

John_Falstaff

@Olauron , that's orthogonal to the topic you brought up. You said that catering to casual crowd is necessary because of monster helms. But you, yourself, already pointed out the discrepancy. Thing is, you don't sell DLC dungeons to people who don't have fun achieving better results in them and only run for masks, not if they have half a brain anyway. They buy a month of ESO+, and once the month is out, they have all the masks they wanted and they're not pressed to return to those dungeons ever again. Logical step. But if they just enjoy the content, then they buy DLC and run the version of dungeons that is adequate to their skill level. Working as intended.

People who find fun in getting good numbers but don't find fun in how it is achieved... Those are different topic entirely, and they chose a wrong game to begin with. "I find it fun riding a horse, but it's not fun to constantly keep balance, I keep falling off. Please nerf the horse and make it more like automobile." Why didn't you choose automobile in first place?

Tailhole

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

John_Falstaff

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

If player has low APM, then he probably can't enter top groups anyway because if can't simply click buttons fast enough to do damage, then he probably won't be able to click them fast enough in response to mechanics either. Fast-paced combat is fundamental to ESO, and it goes much deeper than the simple task of weaving.

Sanguinor2

Tailhole wrote: »

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

Well yeah but that wont Change unless you make the easiest builds the most rewarding and even then the former high APM Players will perform better.

Olauron

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

My Problem with the changes isnt that they buff heavy attack builds or want to make weaker Players stronger. My issue is that they nerf top Players to "close the gap" when the main reason the gap is as large as it is is that Combat does not get explained by the game. If they just buffed heavies and flipped the Sustain around I wouldnt care at all, but for some reason These changes have to come with a 78% Damage nerf to light attacks.

DPS numbers increased almost every update with the introduction on new sets or classes. There is nothing surprising that sooner or later those numbers are returned to previous values one way or the other. Developers will deal with power increase just for one reason - to keep the difficulty of new vet content on approximately same level.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

People who find fun in getting good numbers but don't find fun in how it is achieved... Those are different topic entirely, and they chose a wrong game to begin with. "I find it fun riding a horse, but it's not fun to constantly keep balance, I keep falling off. Please nerf the horse and make it more like automobile." Why didn't you choose automobile in first place?

The irony of "they chose a wrong game to begin with" is that the LA-weaving meta is not from the release. So it can be used backwards, those who want LA-meta chose a wrong game to begin with.

John_Falstaff

Olauron wrote: »

The irony of "they chose a wrong game to begin with" is that the LA-weaving meta is not from the release. So it can be used backwards, those who want LA-meta chose a wrong game to begin with.

There's a big, big difference: LA weaving was made official by ZOS, even loading screens tell newbies about that. Backpedaling on that makes ESO a different game, not the game current populace came to play.

TheFM

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

Then the most difficult content in the game isnt for you. It is for people who put time and effort into the game. Just like overland is easy mode and for casual players with your mindset.

You fail to see the whole picture. If some content is not for someone then that someone will not buy this content. If this content is not bought by a large percentage of players then the question is why develop it, is it really worth developing it and what to do to convince that percentage to buy that content. A hint: telling to overcome will not convince that percentage to buy that content.

You can still do it on normal, without high dps. Fancy that.

TheFM

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You don't need monster helmets for normal dungeons. Fancy that.

John_Falstaff

Olauron wrote: »

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

That also can be turned around, you know. If you find something existing not fun, nobody forces you to play the game. Nobody owes anything to people who came from WoW and demand to turn ESO into WoW, but company owes money to people who came to play ESO only to be told that now they'll be playing WoW. The game is five years old, it's too late to turn it into bloody chess. When I want to play chess, I go blitzin' on a chess server instead of whining that ESO is too fast paced and not fun, I play money for fast paced combat in one place, and for turn-based membership elsewhere, I don't need to be served a thing I didn't pay for.

And also, if you're using Earthgore on a DD, then your problem with getting fun from damage dealing lies much, much deeper than simply finding weaving not fun.

Olauron

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

That also can be turned around, you know. If you find something existing not fun, nobody forces you to play the game. Nobody owes anything to people who came from WoW and demand to turn ESO into WoW, but company owes money to people who came to play ESO only to be told that now they'll be playing WoW. The game is five years old, it's too late to turn it into bloody chess. When I want to play chess, I go blitzin' on a chess server instead of whining that ESO is too fast paced and not fun, I play money for fast paced combat in one place, and for turn-based membership elsewhere, I don't need to be served a thing I didn't pay for.

And also, if you're using Earthgore on a DD, then your problem with getting fun from damage dealing lies much, much deeper than simply finding weaving not fun.

Or I can approve changes that I like. If someone don't like these changes if they go Live, "nobody forces them to play the game" by your logic. The changes to LA were done not 5 years ago. These changes are not so old that they can't be reverted. I am here from release and I don't play WoW and never played WoW, so please, I am as veteran ESO player as anyone else claiming that and have every right to have my own feedback to proposed changes.

I have 10 DD characters with different sets, that is 30 sets total. Earthgore is used only on one character as I don't use one set on different characters, that is boring both thematically and mechanically.

LiquidPony

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

John_Falstaff

Olauron wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

That also can be turned around, you know. If you find something existing not fun, nobody forces you to play the game. Nobody owes anything to people who came from WoW and demand to turn ESO into WoW, but company owes money to people who came to play ESO only to be told that now they'll be playing WoW. The game is five years old, it's too late to turn it into bloody chess. When I want to play chess, I go blitzin' on a chess server instead of whining that ESO is too fast paced and not fun, I play money for fast paced combat in one place, and for turn-based membership elsewhere, I don't need to be served a thing I didn't pay for.

And also, if you're using Earthgore on a DD, then your problem with getting fun from damage dealing lies much, much deeper than simply finding weaving not fun.

Or I can approve changes that I like. If someone don't like these changes if they go Live, "nobody forces them to play the game" by your logic. The changes to LA were done not 5 years ago. These changes are not so old that they can't be reverted. I am here from release and I don't play WoW and never played WoW, so please, I am as veteran ESO player as anyone else claiming that and have every right to have my own feedback to proposed changes.

I have 10 DD characters with different sets, that is 30 sets total. Earthgore is used only on one character as I don't use one set on different characters, that is boring both thematically and mechanically.

Number of years played is not a definition of veteran. I can understand that housing aficionados may suddenly get urges to delve into PvE only to find combat not fun, but those have been years of such combat, it's established, and it's not healthy for the game to overturn everything in one fell swoop. It's your right, of course, to write any amount of text of why ESO should be dumbed down for people who don't find it fun to tap buttons too often for their liking, but really like feeling themselves damage dealers. It's my right to point out how many people will be shafted by it, and how it will turn combat over for tanks, as an example, forcing them to LA weave and block cancel - good luck getting your DD style of fun at expense of other roles, and good luck waiting in queue even longer for tanks after the patch.

TheFM

Olauron wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The irony of "they chose a wrong game to begin with" is that the LA-weaving meta is not from the release. So it can be used backwards, those who want LA-meta chose a wrong game to begin with.

There's a big, big difference: LA weaving was made official by ZOS, even loading screens tell newbies about that. Backpedaling on that makes ESO a different game, not the game current populace came to play.

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You don't need monster helmets for normal dungeons. Fancy that.

I need then because it is fun to use them. Not everything is about needing for dps. Such a foreign concept for some, I know. I use Selene because it is fun on a bear warden. I use Iceheart because it is fun on ice warden. I use Zaan because it is fun on fire DK. I use Earthgore on a damage dealer because it is fun to proc a rain of blood.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

2nd Paragraph: You just said it yourself, its not particulary likely that you get what you Need from the golden and doing the dungeon makes it much easier. So there is your reason, less time spent waiting and it is more convenient.

1st Paragraph: Do a heavy attack build. You can clear near every Content with it, some vet hm Trials excluded. You dont Need a light attack build if you dont intend to compete. You can get ult gen from heavy attacks, and you can proc glyphs/poisons from either weapon abilities or heavy attacks just fine. Some sets that you can proc with light attacks you can also proc with heavy attacks. And there is also sets that exclusively buff heavy attacks.

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

Are you kidding me? I just posted a video of someone winning in street fighter against the best if the best with his mouth, are you seriously telling me people can't overcome still? Get real.

Who cares about that video?

You keep parroting saying people cannot overcome the gap, yet I posted a video proving your 100 percent wrong. You say not everyone can overcome, and we proved you wrong. lol.

Tailhole

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

TheFM

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

That also can be turned around, you know. If you find something existing not fun, nobody forces you to play the game. Nobody owes anything to people who came from WoW and demand to turn ESO into WoW, but company owes money to people who came to play ESO only to be told that now they'll be playing WoW. The game is five years old, it's too late to turn it into bloody chess. When I want to play chess, I go blitzin' on a chess server instead of whining that ESO is too fast paced and not fun, I play money for fast paced combat in one place, and for turn-based membership elsewhere, I don't need to be served a thing I didn't pay for.

And also, if you're using Earthgore on a DD, then your problem with getting fun from damage dealing lies much, much deeper than simply finding weaving not fun.

Or I can approve changes that I like. If someone don't like these changes if they go Live, "nobody forces them to play the game" by your logic. The changes to LA were done not 5 years ago. These changes are not so old that they can't be reverted. I am here from release and I don't play WoW and never played WoW, so please, I am as veteran ESO player as anyone else claiming that and have every right to have my own feedback to proposed changes.

I have 10 DD characters with different sets, that is 30 sets total. Earthgore is used only on one character as I don't use one set on different characters, that is boring both thematically and mechanically.

Number of years played is not a definition of veteran. I can understand that housing aficionados may suddenly get urges to delve into PvE only to find combat not fun, but those have been years of such combat, it's established, and it's not healthy for the game to overturn everything in one fell swoop. It's your right, of course, to write any amount of text of why ESO should be dumbed down for people who don't find it fun to tap buttons too often for their liking, but really like feeling themselves damage dealers. It's my right to point out how many people will be shafted by it, and how it will turn combat over for tanks, as an example, forcing them to LA weave and block cancel - good luck getting your DD style of fun at expense of other roles, and good luck waiting in queue even longer for tanks after the patch.

Hes just another person im blocking cuz they clearly dont know what they are talking about when it comes to this game. They think everything should be accessible to everyone with no challenge, and thats just ludicrous.

TheFM

Tailhole wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

What I'm saying is that you should be able to achieve high end rewards without having to use high apm, but put that skill elsewhere. Having high apm only shows a part of your skill, there are many other ways you can show skill as well, for instance: Being more patient than others and grind better gear, having better strategies than others and make better rotaions/pulls/boss mechanics, you can be better at leading groups than others. High apm should not be the standard/requirement for skill, it's just really overrated and overlooked, and people forget there are other ways to be good besides being faster than others.

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Everything you just listed is already being done by top Groups and weaker Groups are much worse at everything you listed.

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

I call shenanigans.

I think that "grinding" is an overrated skill and all gear should be easily accessible to everyone regardless of skill levels. We should get Maelstrom weapons in daily login rewards, all Monster Sets should be sold at all times in The Golden, and all Perfected gear should drop on normal difficulty with your choice of what gear you want at the end. Actually, scratch all that. Live should be just like PTS where as soon as you create a character (which you can choose to do at max level), you just get fancy bags full of all the gear and materials in the game that you could ever want.

I think that "rotations" are an overrated skill and the game should have built-in macros so that your entire rotation can be programmed ahead of time and then all you have to do is move around.

I think that "strategy" and "boss mechanics" are overrated skills and very PvE encounter should just be fought against a Trial Dummy.

Now have we sufficiently dumbed the game down so that a chimpanzee can get Godslayer?

The core thing that differentiates ESO from other MMOs is fast, action combat.

I think you're ignoring the obvious: high apm is forced upon players to play the game effectively. Other skills are not. And that's the problem. I'm fine with higher apm players performing better, but lower apm players SHOULD be able to play the content the game has to offer and get what they're paying for...

You can play the content, on normal. You should NOT be able to play the harder modes if you are unwilling to practice. Period. Just like everything in every game ever.

Tailhole

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

Well yeah but that wont Change unless you make the easiest builds the most rewarding and even then the former high APM Players will perform better.

Like I said, I'm not asking for lower apm players to have everything, I just want them to be able to participate. And I'm fine with higher apm players having better and results, and I expect them to be better at that department. I just want equal opportunities for everyone.

Olauron

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The irony of "they chose a wrong game to begin with" is that the LA-weaving meta is not from the release. So it can be used backwards, those who want LA-meta chose a wrong game to begin with.

There's a big, big difference: LA weaving was made official by ZOS, even loading screens tell newbies about that. Backpedaling on that makes ESO a different game, not the game current populace came to play.

Game changes. First something is not used, then it is used and is made official, then it is discouraged and no more used, then it is used again in some part. It doesn't mean that the game is made only for those who like only one of those changes.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Normal mode does not have monster helmets, for example. So not everything is accessible. Personally I have done all the veteran content I needed to get all the helmets for all the characters but I don't call it fun, I don't do it anymore, I haven't bought a single DLC dungeon since I don't have fun from this content (I got everything using ESO+). So I don't personally need any changes as I already got all the sets for all my characters. But changes will make me get more fun from combat.

You don't need monster helmets for normal dungeons. Fancy that.

I need then because it is fun to use them. Not everything is about needing for dps. Such a foreign concept for some, I know. I use Selene because it is fun on a bear warden. I use Iceheart because it is fun on ice warden. I use Zaan because it is fun on fire DK. I use Earthgore on a damage dealer because it is fun to proc a rain of blood.

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

The issue is combat not fun. It is not fun to do LA-weaving but I am doing it to get better results and to proc everything that needs to be proced from LA. AC is even less fun and I will never do it on principle. Using skills is fun. Combining skills with sets is fun.

First, items are accessible from Golden just in a same way as luxury furniture is accessible from dunmer. Like yeah, once a year you can buy what you want. It is bad for furnishing and it is not better for sets.
Second, you are right, that way it is not necessary to enter the dungeon. Then what is the reason to buy that dungeon?

2nd Paragraph: You just said it yourself, its not particulary likely that you get what you Need from the golden and doing the dungeon makes it much easier. So there is your reason, less time spent waiting and it is more convenient.

1st Paragraph: Do a heavy attack build. You can clear near every Content with it, some vet hm Trials excluded. You dont Need a light attack build if you dont intend to compete. You can get ult gen from heavy attacks, and you can proc glyphs/poisons from either weapon abilities or heavy attacks just fine. Some sets that you can proc with light attacks you can also proc with heavy attacks. And there is also sets that exclusively buff heavy attacks.

It is more convenient if you don't need to overcome. Not everyone can overcome, definitely not everyone wants to overcome. It is paid content. Do you really think that everyone is ready to pay to overcome?
Yes, it is possible to use HA builds. With the changes those builds will be more effective. Is it bad? Not for me. Changes are absolutely not ideal and I spent six feedbacks to write what I like and what I don't like using the PTS in-game form. But I don't oppose them and I don't oppose the reasoning of ZOS (though I think that another reason is performance and tweaks will be made with performance in mind first and foremost).

Are you kidding me? I just posted a video of someone winning in street fighter against the best if the best with his mouth, are you seriously telling me people can't overcome still? Get real.

Who cares about that video?

You keep parroting saying people cannot overcome the gap, yet I posted a video proving your 100 percent wrong. You say not everyone can overcome, and we proved you wrong. lol.

Do you know logic? If yes then you must know that universal quantification ("everyone") can't be proven by existential quantification ("there is example"). Your video means nothing and proves nothing.