PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

JoeBaze

With everyone talking about the changes to light attacks I decided to investigate the other end of things and see what heavy attacks are like. Feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong or incorrect. The intent is more directed at PvP, namely places where CP is enabled. My goal was to maximize the damage done at the instant of a heavy attack. This is not limited to the damage caused by the heavy attack itself but also includes buffs and bonuses applied at the instant the heavy attack lands. I didn't have anyone on PTS to help me so I ended up testing on a robust human target dummy (18200 resistance). With self supplied buffs, skills, sets etc... I was able to land a an attack + set + enchant for 36,163 without crit. If you include the crit which was 1.820x the normal value, this single attack was dealing 65,817. If we were to include battle spirit this would be halved and still land for about 32,909. Now, granted there are extra applicable defences to players, CP, crit resist, and blocking in place so I'm sure we wouldn't see a number like this in Cyrodiil. However even if you chop off something like 50% of the damage, you are still faced with approximately 16,454 from a heavy attack! All I would need to do is find a player who is not paying attention to block and hit them with one HEAVY ATTACK and they would be in ruin.

As a bonus I attacked a Trials dummy that provides all the trials buffs and I was able to land a full crit at 107,304. The multiplier was 1.970x.

Toc de Malsvi

JoeBaze wrote: »

With everyone talking about the changes to light attacks I decided to investigate the other end of things and see what heavy attacks are like. Feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong or incorrect. The intent is more directed at PvP, namely places where CP is enabled. My goal was to maximize the damage done at the instant of a heavy attack. This is not limited to the damage caused by the heavy attack itself but also includes buffs and bonuses applied at the instant the heavy attack lands. I didn't have anyone on PTS to help me so I ended up testing on a robust human target dummy (18200 resistance). With self supplied buffs, skills, sets etc... I was able to land a an attack + set + enchant for 36,163 without crit. If you include the crit which was 1.820x the normal value, this single attack was dealing 65,817. If we were to include battle spirit this would be halved and still land for about 32,909. Now, granted there are extra applicable defences to players, CP, crit resist, and blocking in place so I'm sure we wouldn't see a number like this in Cyrodiil. However even if you chop off something like 50% of the damage, you are still faced with approximately 16,454 from a heavy attack! All I would need to do is find a player who is not paying attention to block and hit them with one HEAVY ATTACK and they would be in ruin.

As a bonus I attacked a Trials dummy that provides all the trials buffs and I was able to land a full crit at 107,304. The multiplier was 1.970x.

Not just extra defenses, NPCs take bonus damage from sneak attacks that players do not. It’s drastically lower on players, which can be seen on live if you do the same setup with say a 2H heavy on an NPC from sneak versus a 2H heavy from sneak on a player.

You need to test with another player before generating imaginary fears.

Toc de Malsvi

JoeBaze wrote: »

With everyone talking about the changes to light attacks I decided to investigate the other end of things and see what heavy attacks are like. Feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong or incorrect. The intent is more directed at PvP, namely places where CP is enabled. My goal was to maximize the damage done at the instant of a heavy attack. This is not limited to the damage caused by the heavy attack itself but also includes buffs and bonuses applied at the instant the heavy attack lands. I didn't have anyone on PTS to help me so I ended up testing on a robust human target dummy (18200 resistance). With self supplied buffs, skills, sets etc... I was able to land a an attack + set + enchant for 36,163 without crit. If you include the crit which was 1.820x the normal value, this single attack was dealing 65,817. If we were to include battle spirit this would be halved and still land for about 32,909. Now, granted there are extra applicable defences to players, CP, crit resist, and blocking in place so I'm sure we wouldn't see a number like this in Cyrodiil. However even if you chop off something like 50% of the damage, you are still faced with approximately 16,454 from a heavy attack! All I would need to do is find a player who is not paying attention to block and hit them with one HEAVY ATTACK and they would be in ruin.

As a bonus I attacked a Trials dummy that provides all the trials buffs and I was able to land a full crit at 107,304. The multiplier was 1.970x.

Even if you ignored sneak, hitting 16k-20k crits on people in Cyrodiil is entirely possible already. It doesn’t happen when they actually build for defense. The difference is that with Snipe you can cancel that cast if you decide you would rather not open up. With heavy attacks you cannot.

That’s only if you look at Bow. 2H heavy attacks would hit harder but be harder to land on a target.

Jim6270

I realy don’t think that changing the light and heavy attack is giving you what you need and I specialy do not think players in the lower end of the APM gets what they need out of it ether.

I think a better way to go about it, is closing the gap between low and high CP and learning new players the mecanics of the game and learning them about the power of sets items bonusses insted.

When people are saying a player have too Low DPS most of the time they are talking about a CP200 or 300 player. Those players propebly dident learn all the mecanics yet and are lagging out on so much damage from CP (penatration, criticals, extra damage from ligth and heavy attacks and damage from DoTs and Direct damage) that a CP 810+ player have. And they cannot even have fun like dueling without thinking they are totaly bad them self.

1) If those players got their CPs faster, the gap in PvE and CP PvP would be much smaler.
2) If they had propper gear the gap would be much smaller.
3) If those players learned to animation cancle the gap whould be much smaller.
4) If they had better ways to train, the gap would be smaller.

1) If it was me I would give players 20 CP every 10 LvLs and give an extra 100 CP when the first character hits LvL 50 (yes!, thereby also removing all CP 1 to 200 items and crafting stuff and call CP 160 gear LvL 50 gear or CP 200 gear).This way every player can get to the max CP by playing new characters up and thereby also learning more about the game and classes, insted of just farming endlessly when they hit 50 to actualy have fun in the game.
2) Have a part of the tutorial telling players about item sets when they pick them up, that you need gear with set bonusses to do good in deferent aspects of the game and maby also to tell about the importantcy of crafting etc.
3+4 PvE) If it was me I would make an undaunted quest where you learn ligth attack animation cansel and how to get resurses back with heavy attack, by figthing a trainer from the undaunted. When you did it the first time you would get a monster helm of your choice (from the non-DLC dungeons and the DLC dungeons you have acces to), second time you do it you get a monster set shoulder and after that you (and all your other characters after) can do it as a daily quest for one undaunted key. This way all new players would do this every day and get better at it realy fast.
4 PvP) If it was me I would make people abel to make non-CP duels as well, so a new player with CP 250 would train PvP with his friends, guildmembers etc in non-CP duels and be able to see when he does good or bad insted of just getting runned down by every CP 400+ players he meet and then stop dueling totaly.

This 4 points could actualy make the game 10 times more fun for new players as well as closing those big gaps between player skills by a lot.

For me and others at the high APM end, it will change nothing with the changes to the ligth and heavy attack, because I/we would come by it in other ways and will be fast to learn about the new mecanics, remove recovery form our gear and put on more damage and defence etc. and thereby be better again. And maby even find easy ways to use/abuse the power of stronger heavy attacks etc.
But things that would make the game slower in general is what would make them leave if it keep going in that direction wile you do not focus on bigger things like bug-fixing what is not working.

So I for one think you should look in totaly deferent directions for making the gaps between high and low APM smaller or look at how to improve low APM players in total, like the sugestions I made above so they can have more fun playing the game and stay as well.
Fast playstyle gaming is what make ESO fun. It’s mostly also the reason why new players come to the game as well, because they see high APM players posting videos, streaming on twicth etc.
Please learn them to be midt to high APM players and make gaps between low and high CP smaller insted of thinking of ways to make the game more slow or borring for the players that is already here and like the game as it is.

yosev

While I believe there is a skill gap that needs to be addressed, I do not believe the proposed changes are the right way to remedy the situation. One of the main reasons why I enjoy Elder Scrolls Online is its action-based combat which I feel rewards players for practicing their execution, and I feel the proposed changes on the PTS only hinder higher-performing players, while only marginally helping lower performing players.

I think the best way to improve the performance of players at the lower-end of the gap is to help those players learn how to increase their action performance and attack-weaving. Perhaps ZOS could create something within the default interface that helps newer players track their light attacks, or some kind of tutorial that introduces newer players to attack weaving. Yes, there are add-ons that help in this department, but part of the reason why the skill gap is so large is because this particular aspect of the game isn't properly introduced within the base game.

At the end of the day, most of ESO's content has several different tiers that can be accessed by varying degrees of skills. You don't really need to be a high "APM" player to clear veteran DLC trials. It's really only necessary to reach high performance levels when trying to clear the hard mode content and achievements, but if you as a player want to clear that type of content, then you need to be prepared to put in the work to do that. I would much rather ZOS provide the proper instruction for newer players to learn the existing combat system, rather than dramatically revamping it.

Drdeath20

There was a turtorial the first time I entered cyrodil that showed me how to fire seige. Something that simple the developers thought we might need a tutorial for but nothing for combat.

Dojohoda

I tried it on PTS. To me this purposed change seems like a DPS nerf and that is all. Whether it is helpful to the player base, I can't really say; it's not helpful to my mageblade. Whether it actually is intuitive, nothing is; we learn to play as the game is designed and that's what we do. If we really care, we try hard and we don't just mindlessly push buttons. There's more to this game than pushing buttons.

I personally don't like pushing buttons so fast and if you can hook into my brain and let me control things from there, that'd be peachy. My keyboard keys literally fly off the keyboard and I'm on my fifth gaming mouse.

I might be missing something, maybe a possible build to make up for it, but as a mageblade, I don't like the damage nerf to light attacks since a few of the nightblade skills are based on both light attacks and heavy attacks. I'd rather get damage from light attacks since a heavy attack takes more time meaning fewer skills are cast. So, if possible, please allow medium attacks to count as "2" for my spectral bow. Thanks.

2s2r: bold parts

newtinmpls

Hanokihs wrote: »

the sorc masses with staves do pretty much nothing but heavy attack, even more likely if it's a lightning staff.

Think about it. After the loss of sustain in Morrowind, anyone who is new-ish or has poor magkicka regen needs to be doing that....now.

newtinmpls

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If we want to turn ESO into something that more closely resembles mainline TES games, it should start with eschewing the wonky kludge classes and allowing players to choose their own skills again, like you do in literally every TES game.

.

I so so so want this...!!

joebob645_ESO

what if no auto attacks of any kind restored resources?

Kesstryl

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Honestly, I have no idea what these comparisons to "TES combat" are on about.

I love the mainline games as much as (or more) than anyone, but an amazing combat experience is definitely not the reason why most people enjoy playing those games (remember Morrowind???). It's the FUS-ROH-DAH off the cliff or spamming Fireballs or one-shotting a dragon from stealth, which, sadly, are all impossible within the confines of an MMO.

If we want to turn ESO into something that more closely resembles mainline TES games, it should start with eschewing the wonky kludge classes and allowing players to choose their own skills again, like you do in literally every TES game.

If that is not possible, it should restore the primacy of individual skill lines such as Conjuration, One-Handed, Unarmored, Destruction, Acrobatics, Alteration, etc. rather than laundering these traditional skills through the nonsensical Weapon and Guild lines.

Do those things and you have come closer to bringing an authentic Elder Scrolls experience to ESO than any buff to Heavy Attacks will ever accomplish.

I so much want this also!!!

JoeBaze

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

JoeBaze wrote: »

With everyone talking about the changes to light attacks I decided to investigate the other end of things and see what heavy attacks are like. Feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong or incorrect. The intent is more directed at PvP, namely places where CP is enabled. My goal was to maximize the damage done at the instant of a heavy attack. This is not limited to the damage caused by the heavy attack itself but also includes buffs and bonuses applied at the instant the heavy attack lands. I didn't have anyone on PTS to help me so I ended up testing on a robust human target dummy (18200 resistance). With self supplied buffs, skills, sets etc... I was able to land a an attack + set + enchant for 36,163 without crit. If you include the crit which was 1.820x the normal value, this single attack was dealing 65,817. If we were to include battle spirit this would be halved and still land for about 32,909. Now, granted there are extra applicable defences to players, CP, crit resist, and blocking in place so I'm sure we wouldn't see a number like this in Cyrodiil. However even if you chop off something like 50% of the damage, you are still faced with approximately 16,454 from a heavy attack! All I would need to do is find a player who is not paying attention to block and hit them with one HEAVY ATTACK and they would be in ruin.

As a bonus I attacked a Trials dummy that provides all the trials buffs and I was able to land a full crit at 107,304. The multiplier was 1.970x.

Not just extra defenses, NPCs take bonus damage from sneak attacks that players do not. It’s drastically lower on players, which can be seen on live if you do the same setup with say a 2H heavy on an NPC from sneak versus a 2H heavy from sneak on a player.

You need to test with another player before generating imaginary fears.

This damage was done without sneak, as in I purposely already started combat before dealing the blow. Also, I was front-facing the dummy. Keep in mind this was also just damage done with pre buffs and then a heavy attack. There's still room for things like Zaan, stuns, and other combat abilities that will deal simultaneous damage. I do completely agree with you though, I need to find another player to test with before thinking things are crazy. I'm just saying the potential could be there and I'm limited on resources such as another person to work with on PTS.

LiquidPony

snoozy wrote: »

please tell me this is an early april fools joke

Careful.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

coradaelu wrote: »

I hope this never go to live server, "Your movement speed is no longer reduced while channeling" keep this and buff heavy attack, that's all, but dam they even change Sets, CP and everything.. I doubt they will reverse this.

They CODED it. It’s going live. They’ve put a lot of time, effort, THOUGHT into this and it’s going live. Feedback or not.

I was thinking of quitting but I got THREE mothballed BROKEN AF builds I can run off THESE proposed mechanics. And they already golded out lol.

I'd argue that they didn't put much thought into it at all, to be honest.

And if this is the product of "a lot of thought" ... well, whatever. Not sure why I'd expect any different from a team that legitimately thought *cast times on shields* was a bright idea.

TheFM

To all the ppl saying high APM is too difficult, https://youtu.be/N2SNwKvWiVc

Overcome, not excuses

Olauron

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

TheFM

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

John_Falstaff

Yummy extra sustain. Didn't need healing before, now won't need extra otherwise useless body running Symphony either. Just will ditch the healer and will run 3DD to make up for lost damage. Healers are so 2019.

On a less provocative note - and yes, I like healers and prefer them - there are so many problems ZOS have created in one fell swoop with this change that it's hard to fathom. It's easy to decide "let LAs do no damage but restore resources now", tweak just a few things, but it shows how little thought and testing went into it, because sustain races just got obliterated, playstyles ruined, PvP unbalanced even further, sets made useless, gimmicky game elements reinforced further - bash weaving, 3DD runs, class balance wrecked, less experienced tanks made more vulnerable... It's mind-boggling just how how little proper thought went into addressing the vast amount of side effects this ham-fisted change brings.

TheFM

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Yummy extra sustain. Didn't need healing before, now won't need extra otherwise useless body running Symphony either. Just will ditch the healer and will run 3DD to make up for lost damage. Healers are so 2019.

On a less provocative note - and yes, I like healers and prefer them - there are so many problems ZOS have created in one fell swoop with this change that it's hard to fathom. It's easy to decide "let LAs do no damage but restore resources now", tweak just a few things, but it shows how little thought and testing went into it, because sustain races just got obliterated, playstyles ruined, PvP unbalanced even further, sets made useless, gimmicky game elements reinforced further - bash weaving, 3DD runs, class balance wrecked, less experienced tanks made more vulnerable... It's mind-boggling just how how little proper thought went into addressing the vast amount of side effects this ham-fisted change brings.

It makes no sense to me whatsoever that instead of zos' trying to do a good job teaching players the mechanics already existing in game, they change the core mechanics of the game and still refuse to make the in game tutorial better to explain the new mechanics. It's downright hilarious

olsborg

The light attack dmg champion points will become quite useless too, any plans to remedy this? Ex: Staff Expert

Royaji

olsborg wrote: »

The light attack dmg champion points will become quite useless too, any plans to remedy this? Ex: Staff Expert

There are no "light attack dmg champion points". Staff Expert and Melee Weapon Expert affect both light and heavy attacks.

TheFM

olsborg wrote: »

The light attack dmg champion points will become quite useless too, any plans to remedy this? Ex: Staff Expert

The easy simple solution would have been reduce effectiveness of said champion point star, instead of gutting high APM playstyles. It's absurd that people who practice should be punished because some refuse to practice.

Tailhole

So seeing how many veteran 1vX pvp'ers seem outraged around this change, and afraid that ZOS might scrap this idea I just had to state my opinion about why the change should go through...

Background
Before I start I just want to write a short background on me as a player: I've been playing ESO for almost 3 years (the forum account was created a while after I started playing), I've leveled almost 10 characters to max level and have experience in every class combination, I've done most dungeons and a few raids, but I mainly focus on pvp (cyrodiil/battlegrounds). I've always been active with bug finding and theory crafting, being my two favorite things to do in this game.

Immersion/Common sense
So starting off, In most elder scrolls games light and heavy attacks were the original way to fight with weapons. Light attacks being the faster but less damaging way of fighting, while heavy attacks being slower but much stronger attacks that usually had special effects depending on how you chose to fight, and therefor drained the users stamina to execute a powerful attack like that. To not be completely drained out of stamina, the user would have to vary the attacks and use light attacks while regaining back stamina for heavy attacks and blocking, and to keep the combat flow going while waiting for it.

Now when I first started playing ESO I my initial thought around the heavy attacks restoring resources was straight up confused. Aren't heavy attacks supposed to be strong attacks that drain your stamina like in other elder scrolls games? Of course I just went along with it. I've had other friends I invited to this game also tell me that this seemed backwards to them and it will take some time to get used to it.

Forced playstyle
Later on, while trying to do end game content I started to wonder why my dps is so low, while others had 5 times more dps, and I had maxed out gear, pure glass cannon with enough resource recovery to keep my dps going. And was told by people that light attack weaving was the most important part of a rotation, and around half the damage comes from them. I just went along with it as well, but it started to feel a bit forced. I wasn't used to all of the key inputs and the high apm, and I could barely handle it. Then adding all the buffs and necessary DoT's I almost broke and was thinking if this game was really for me. I just wanted to play an elder scrolls game with my friends, not OSU or DDR MMORPG edition.

I was suddenly feeling left out, because no matter how great of a build you make, how good of a rotation you create, it all comes down to who has the faster fingers, which in my opinion is only a part of the player base. I consider myself half decent at fast action games, and I can't keep up with this. Heck even my friend I invited, who has slower apm than me, also told me he had difficulty gaining a lot of dps compared to others, and I had to explain to him what weaving and animation/bash cancelling is, and he immediately started practicing on it. I felt bad for him, because I know he's worse at this than me, but that's just how the game goes, you either high apm or you're automatically worse than other players.

Playstyle variety
So the reason why I'm trying to fight for this feature to reach the live servers is because some people just aren't suited for high apm action, and being one of the biggest MMO's out there, possibly surpassing the rest hopefully, ZOS should take the responsibility to make sure that every player should have a fair advantage compared to other players. Now I'm not saying that you should ruing the playstyle for the higher apm players, because that's also a playstyle some people enjoy, and I respect that. But at least have the possibility for the lower apm players to be viable and appreciate the contents the game has to offer.

Now some "pro" high apm 1vX'ers might say that this only appeals to newer players, and the balance shouldn't be based around that. But it's not about how new you are, I'm a good example of that as written in the short background above, it's about how capable people are at performing these "necessary" high apm actions, and I put it in quotation marks because as sarcastic as it sounds it's the sad truth.

What do people have to lose with this change?
Practically nothing to be honest. Sure, higher apm players will lose some dps, but if you really want to compete with others, you still have the better buff/potion management, weapon swapping skills, high skilled movement will be rewarded more because you don't lose as much dps as you did in the past while doing it (running/LoS'ing). Of course a little dps loss will make high apm players go defensive about it, because it affects them. Just like I'm doing right now, but instead of a dps loss I'm talking about being able to actually play the game as effectively as other players, making the game more immersive and make sense, allowing more playstyles that are more suited for lower apm players, and probably some more things.

So is that really too much to sacrifice for something far bigger than just a few number drops?

Olauron

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

TheFM

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

Then the most difficult content in the game isnt for you. It is for people who put time and effort into the game. Just like overland is easy mode and for casual players with your mindset.

TheFM

Tailhole wrote: »

So seeing how many veteran 1vX pvp'ers seem outraged around this change, and afraid that ZOS might scrap this idea I just had to state my opinion about why the change should go through...

Background
Before I start I just want to write a short background on me as a player: I've been playing ESO for almost 3 years (the forum account was created a while after I started playing), I've leveled almost 10 characters to max level and have experience in every class combination, I've done most dungeons and a few raids, but I mainly focus on pvp (cyrodiil/battlegrounds). I've always been active with bug finding and theory crafting, being my two favorite things to do in this game.

Immersion/Common sense
So starting off, In most elder scrolls games light and heavy attacks were the original way to fight with weapons. Light attacks being the faster but less damaging way of fighting, while heavy attacks being slower but much stronger attacks that usually had special effects depending on how you chose to fight, and therefor drained the users stamina to execute a powerful attack like that. To not be completely drained out of stamina, the user would have to vary the attacks and use light attacks while regaining back stamina for heavy attacks and blocking, and to keep the combat flow going while waiting for it.

Now when I first started playing ESO I my initial thought around the heavy attacks restoring resources was straight up confused. Aren't heavy attacks supposed to be strong attacks that drain your stamina like in other elder scrolls games? Of course I just went along with it. I've had other friends I invited to this game also tell me that this seemed backwards to them and it will take some time to get used to it.

Forced playstyle
Later on, while trying to do end game content I started to wonder why my dps is so low, while others had 5 times more dps, and I had maxed out gear, pure glass cannon with enough resource recovery to keep my dps going. And was told by people that light attack weaving was the most important part of a rotation, and around half the damage comes from them. I just went along with it as well, but it started to feel a bit forced. I wasn't used to all of the key inputs and the high apm, and I could barely handle it. Then adding all the buffs and necessary DoT's I almost broke and was thinking if this game was really for me. I just wanted to play an elder scrolls game with my friends, not OSU or DDR MMORPG edition.

I was suddenly feeling left out, because no matter how great of a build you make, how good of a rotation you create, it all comes down to who has the faster fingers, which in my opinion is only a part of the player base. I consider myself half decent at fast action games, and I can't keep up with this. Heck even my friend I invited, who has slower apm than me, also told me he had difficulty gaining a lot of dps compared to others, and I had to explain to him what weaving and animation/bash cancelling is, and he immediately started practicing on it. I felt bad for him, because I know he's worse at this than me, but that's just how the game goes, you either high apm or you're automatically worse than other players.

Playstyle variety
So the reason why I'm trying to fight for this feature to reach the live servers is because some people just aren't suited for high apm action, and being one of the biggest MMO's out there, possibly surpassing the rest hopefully, ZOS should take the responsibility to make sure that every player should have a fair advantage compared to other players. Now I'm not saying that you should ruing the playstyle for the higher apm players, because that's also a playstyle some people enjoy, and I respect that. But at least have the possibility for the lower apm players to be viable and appreciate the contents the game has to offer.

Now some "pro" high apm 1vX'ers might say that this only appeals to newer players, and the balance shouldn't be based around that. But it's not about how new you are, I'm a good example of that as written in the short background above, it's about how capable people are at performing these "necessary" high apm actions, and I put it in quotation marks because as sarcastic as it sounds it's the sad truth.

What do people have to lose with this change?
Practically nothing to be honest. Sure, higher apm players will lose some dps, but if you really want to compete with others, you still have the better buff/potion management, weapon swapping skills, high skilled movement will be rewarded more because you don't lose as much dps as you did in the past while doing it (running/LoS'ing). Of course a little dps loss will make high apm players go defensive about it, because it affects them. Just like I'm doing right now, but instead of a dps loss I'm talking about being able to actually play the game as effectively as other players, making the game more immersive and make sense, allowing more playstyles that are more suited for lower apm players, and probably some more things.

So is that really too much to sacrifice for something far bigger than just a few number drops?

What do we have to lose? Obviously you dont play pvp. The immortal tank builds will be even more immortal after this. And be like this guy, dont whine you have to practice.

https://youtu.be/N2SNwKvWiVc

John_Falstaff

Clearly people who don't play PvE will be brushing off the changes as insignificant. After all, what do those strange alien people clicking bosses to death have to do with game. They'll make do; of course, unclear how, but what do those change proponents care, they don't know a thing about it, but they're sure it must be okay. ZOS said so!

Sanguinor2

Tailhole wrote: »

Forced playstyle
Later on, while trying to do end game content I started to wonder why my dps is so low, while others had 5 times more dps, and I had maxed out gear, pure glass cannon with enough resource recovery to keep my dps going. And was told by people that light attack weaving was the most important part of a rotation, and around half the damage comes from them. I just went along with it as well, but it started to feel a bit forced. I wasn't used to all of the key inputs and the high apm, and I could barely handle it. Then adding all the buffs and necessary DoT's I almost broke and was thinking if this game was really for me. I just wanted to play an elder scrolls game with my friends, not OSU or DDR MMORPG edition.

I was suddenly feeling left out, because no matter how great of a build you make, how good of a rotation you create, it all comes down to who has the faster fingers, which in my opinion is only a part of the player base. I consider myself half decent at fast action games, and I can't keep up with this. Heck even my friend I invited, who has slower apm than me, also told me he had difficulty gaining a lot of dps compared to others, and I had to explain to him what weaving and animation/bash cancelling is, and he immediately started practicing on it. I felt bad for him, because I know he's worse at this than me, but that's just how the game goes, you either high apm or you're automatically worse than other players.

Playstyle variety
So the reason why I'm trying to fight for this feature to reach the live servers is because some people just aren't suited for high apm action, and being one of the biggest MMO's out there, possibly surpassing the rest hopefully, ZOS should take the responsibility to make sure that every player should have a fair advantage compared to other players. Now I'm not saying that you should ruing the playstyle for the higher apm players, because that's also a playstyle some people enjoy, and I respect that. But at least have the possibility for the lower apm players to be viable and appreciate the contents the game has to offer.

Now some "pro" high apm 1vX'ers might say that this only appeals to newer players, and the balance shouldn't be based around that. But it's not about how new you are, I'm a good example of that as written in the short background above, it's about how capable people are at performing these "necessary" high apm actions, and I put it in quotation marks because as sarcastic as it sounds it's the sad truth.

What do people have to lose with this change?
Practically nothing to be honest. Sure, higher apm players will lose some dps, but if you really want to compete with others, you still have the better buff/potion management, weapon swapping skills, high skilled movement will be rewarded more because you don't lose as much dps as you did in the past while doing it (running/LoS'ing). Of course a little dps loss will make high apm players go defensive about it, because it affects them. Just like I'm doing right now, but instead of a dps loss I'm talking about being able to actually play the game as effectively as other players, making the game more immersive and make sense, allowing more playstyles that are more suited for lower apm players, and probably some more things.

So is that really too much to sacrifice for something far bigger than just a few number drops?

There are perfectly viable heavy attack builds that have low APM with which you can clear nearly every Content in this game. The only Content you cannot clear with good heavy attack builds are the some veteran and veteran hardmode trials, everything else can be done with a good heavy attack build. While they dont reach the Damage a top Player can achieve with a light attack Rotation they are enough for most Content.
So why do we have to suffer for others not wanting to learn/not wanting to put in the effort/not Looking at other Options? Or why does every veteran hardmode Need to be accessible to someone that doesnt Train? Why even have Veteran or hardmodes then? We can just replace everything with normal and be done with it.
Which also brings me to the Point that every Content is accessible in form of normal mode. And normal mode is a joke with next to no requirements since you can ignore every mechanic. Vetaran mode being more difficult is Kind of the Point of something called Veteran mode, it shouldnt be accessible to everyone if they dont put in any effort at all.

Sanguinor2

Olauron wrote: »

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

You can also enjoy the game without doing Veteran or hardmode Content. Everything is accessible in the form of normal mode.
If you want to have fun in Veteran/hardmodes then you should also be able to meet the requirements to clear it.

Olauron

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

Then the most difficult content in the game isnt for you. It is for people who put time and effort into the game. Just like overland is easy mode and for casual players with your mindset.

You fail to see the whole picture. If some content is not for someone then that someone will not buy this content. If this content is not bought by a large percentage of players then the question is why develop it, is it really worth developing it and what to do to convince that percentage to buy that content. A hint: telling to overcome will not convince that percentage to buy that content.

John_Falstaff

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Overcome, not excuses

Overcome for what exactly? What is the reason for a player to remove fun from game and start overcoming?

If you really enjoy the game you learn to overcome hurdles, not whine about, " it's toooo hard " like many many already have. If the person in the video can, everyone can, otherwise it's just excuses and you wanting to ruin gameplay for players already enjoying the combat.

Enjoying the game has nothing to do with enjoying the overcoming. Games being a just for fun activity is just as valid concept as game being an overcoming fest.

Then the most difficult content in the game isnt for you. It is for people who put time and effort into the game. Just like overland is easy mode and for casual players with your mindset.

You fail to see the whole picture. If some content is not for someone then that someone will not buy this content. If this content is not bought by a large percentage of players then the question is why develop it, is it really worth developing it and what to do to convince that percentage to buy that content. A hint: telling to overcome will not convince that percentage to buy that content.

It's the same content. Just different mode. Someone who can't do vet Sunspire, can still do normal Sunspire, and would buy Elsweyr for that (not to mention overland, questing and such). I don't see an issue here. Harder content is not bought separately.