PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

JumpmanLane

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

Well yeah but that wont Change unless you make the easiest builds the most rewarding and even then the former high APM Players will perform better.

Like I said, I'm not asking for lower apm players to have everything, I just want them to be able to participate. And I'm fine with higher apm players having better and results, and I expect them to be better at that department. I just want equal opportunities for everyone.

But everybody AINT equal. Some folks just SUCK. It’s a lil hit to the ego. ZOS can nerf or change whatever, a gap in skill will remain.

Take an elite VTrial guild. Say what you want; but, those sorts of players are still gonna be able to sniff out crappy players. If that guild’s goals include pushing leaderboards and amassing game for doing so; they’re still gonna boot scrubs.

In PvP, scrubs are still gonna get dropped and tbagged. Just as quick as ever, whether dummies are running heavy attack builds or not.

One would better suited looking to improve their own gameplay instead of encouraging devs to “help” them. (Incidentally, whose bright idea were these changes anyways. Is there a link to “how they came up with these changes? Though I can guess, why the sudden concern for unskilled players? Is retention a problem? If so, you’d think fixing the game at high level endgame would be a priority...oh, guess what! It is! Or so ZOS says. Further, this is the Tear of Performance Fixes. Let’s hope some of them work).

mickelstein

I left feedback on the feedback post, and I know this is primarily discussion about LA and HA changes, but...
Am I crazy here or did anyone else find the change to Kavatch Gladiator a little OP? Almost 1500 weapon damage buff to all abilities in execute range?
That wouldn't get abused at all I'm sure

StShoot

Btw was there any feedback from zos side regarding the LA/HA changes ?

goldenarcher1

mickelstein wrote: »

I left feedback on the feedback post, and I know this is primarily discussion about LA and HA changes, but...
Am I crazy here or did anyone else find the change to Kavatch Gladiator a little OP? Almost 1500 weapon damage buff to all abilities in execute range?
That wouldn't get abused at all I'm sure

There's no way i would consider using that set on my stamblade with 3 bloodthirsty jewelry.....

StShoot

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

mickelstein wrote: »

I left feedback on the feedback post, and I know this is primarily discussion about LA and HA changes, but...
Am I crazy here or did anyone else find the change to Kavatch Gladiator a little OP? Almost 1500 weapon damage buff to all abilities in execute range?
That wouldn't get abused at all I'm sure

There's no way i would consider using that set on my stamblade with 3 bloodthirsty jewelry.....

The question is do you even need it ? ha+woa+2hand ult into execute will kill everything in the next patch, and you dont even have to run bloodthirsty or gladiator

kalunte

just in case it hasnt been said yet:

This rework doesnt work at all with chaneled/casted abilities like snipe, radiant oppression, shards and others.

those skills will need a serious oversight to fit to this new LA/HA thing.

Unknown_Redemption

I wanted to share an idea for ZOS to consider implementing: A new Combat Option under the game's settings, where Bar Swapping and Abilities can be given the option to be collapsed into one single action.

Instead of our UI showing the tradition 5 Ability array and an Ultimate, toggling this option would show all 12 at the same time (Front and Back Bar). When a player uses any of the slotted abilities the game uses a prefixed delay/processing time to show the animation of bar swapping then executing the selected ability. This would help a lot of newer players as bar swapping can cause finger entanglement.


Please understand that I know this will not work for console/control players.

Eiregirl

The changes to splash damage seems a little drastic and appears to try and compensate for the added damage to heavy attacks and further penalize the light attack reduction.
From my testing I think the LA/HA changes proposed are not needed in the way they are being approached especially if you are trying to raise the floor and lower the ceiling…the ceiling is not getting lowered by much and the floor is dropping farther away with the current PTS changes.

I think if you feel the need to make changes then make some small changes.
Reduce the damage of light attacks by a small percentage and give it a small resource return.
Increase the heavy attack slightly and reduce the resource return a small amount.

The below changes to two handed, destruction staff and restoration staff are a little drastic.
Forceful should be around 15/35% with as high as 20/45%
Tri Focus be around 30/70% with as high as 35/80%
Or just leave splash damage alone for now.

Cycle of life (I will admit I have not tested out any healing as of yet so I really have not opinion at the moment and will let actual healers tackle that one) but it seems a little overboard to me.

Weapons
• Two Handed
o Forceful: This passive now causes your Light and Heavy Attacks to splash for 12/25% of their damage caused, down from 25/50%.
• Destruction Staff
o Tri Focus: This passive now causes your Lightning Heavy Attacks to splash for 12/25% of the damage caused, down from 50/100%.
• Restoration Staff
o Cycle of Life: This passive causes your Restoration Light and Heavy Attacks to restore 1/2% of your missing Magicka with a cap of 100/200, rather than causing your Restoration fully charged Heavy Attacks to restore 15/30% more Magicka.

Moonsorrow

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tailhole wrote: »

My point is: You won't see a low apm player in any of the top groups, regardless if they have better skills in other areas, because high apm is a requirement.

Well yeah but that wont Change unless you make the easiest builds the most rewarding and even then the former high APM Players will perform better.

Like I said, I'm not asking for lower apm players to have everything, I just want them to be able to participate. And I'm fine with higher apm players having better and results, and I expect them to be better at that department. I just want equal opportunities for everyone.

But everybody AINT equal. Some folks just SUCK. It’s a lil hit to the ego. ZOS can nerf or change whatever, a gap in skill will remain.

Take an elite VTrial guild. Say what you want; but, those sorts of players are still gonna be able to sniff out crappy players. If that guild’s goals include pushing leaderboards and amassing game for doing so; they’re still gonna boot scrubs.

In PvP, scrubs are still gonna get dropped and tbagged. Just as quick as ever, whether dummies are running heavy attack builds or not.

One would better suited looking to improve their own gameplay instead of encouraging devs to “help” them. (Incidentally, whose bright idea were these changes anyways. Is there a link to “how they came up with these changes? Though I can guess, why the sudden concern for unskilled players? Is retention a problem? If so, you’d think fixing the game at high level endgame would be a priority...oh, guess what! It is! Or so ZOS says. Further, this is the Tear of Performance Fixes. Let’s hope some of them work).

I gave you the lonely Awesome you got there.

Not many will agree with your post/feedback because how bluntly (if that is proper grammar) the message is said. It also is the truth. It is the truth at both pve and pvp - but yes, when egos get hurt the nerfs and changes happen that in the end just makes the game less fun & rewarding for everyone, even to those who wanted the nerfs since in the end.. even they go "no one wanted the game to become something totally different" when it is becoming slow, clunky and more towards turn-based old game than the fast and modern action we have had and loved.

And this is not because i myself have some "elitist" view, it is just being realist that people have different levels of skill, mainly because some are willing to (and have done) train and get better, training pvp and/or pve for years. But some wants to instantly be at the same level with easy solutions that equalize players with mechanical restrictions.

If one just wants to use fast fingers and thinking at the game for efficient results.. it should be as right way atleast to play as is the more casual way.

I just feel like those who want to train and work hard for good results are slowly getting some artificial penalties to try and hold us down so others who not wanna put effort in can come in and do same thing with just holding down left mouse button (heavy attack) only..

If pvp and pve turns to being about holding 1 button down.. what is left to "play" and improve on anymore?

Why cannot things just be like they have? Why cannot things be like years ago when this game actually worked decently? You all remember how well pvp/cyro/bgs/trials still worked at Summerset launch as an example just 2 years ago? With way better balance even it was not perfect, it was still close enough to be an illusion of a balance as an MMO can have.

Why the need to change/fix things that are not broken? We oldies been playing and loving this game for years, new players also come more than PC EU server can handle, and the new players like the same mechanics that we like, but not like the lag and bugs.. so why the need to change things from working and fun to bugged and not-so-fun all the time? Just.. why?

With this same type of rant being said already by me and many others, i still hope all have a good monday and week!

goldenarcher1

StShoot wrote: »

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

mickelstein wrote: »

I left feedback on the feedback post, and I know this is primarily discussion about LA and HA changes, but...
Am I crazy here or did anyone else find the change to Kavatch Gladiator a little OP? Almost 1500 weapon damage buff to all abilities in execute range?
That wouldn't get abused at all I'm sure

There's no way i would consider using that set on my stamblade with 3 bloodthirsty jewelry.....

The question is do you even need it ? ha+woa+2hand ult into execute will kill everything in the next patch, and you dont even have to run bloodthirsty or gladiator

Maybe not.

It depends on what other "changes"are in the next patch though.

usmcjdking

All the changes in the world aren't going to stop some of you guys from eating 13k Dawnbreakers.

Royaji

usmcjdking wrote: »

All the changes in the world aren't going to stop some of you guys from eating 13k Dawnbreakers.

Except for cast-time on Dawnbreaker.

Drdeath20

Nobody likes a small gap!

xaraan

I do have to say, I watched a stream the other day from one of the streamers that support the change b/c they already run heavy attack builds and almost fell asleep watching them hold one button down most of the fight with proc sets like iceheart even allowing them to do less work.

And they were doing a quasi-HM of a trial (one of the ones where you can just do mini boss with main boss). So it's not stopping people from doing content as it is on live now apparently.

Hard modes are designed to give those players that are high APM/skill/whatever you want to call it, a challenge. Changing that and you're just dumbing down the game and offering those players nothing. Things already get nerfed and with natural power creep, old content gets easier and easier to do. Frankly, watching players clear stuff like vMoL and get all the same rewards as people that had to work much harder to clear it in the past is bad enough. But it's a natural part of this sort of game it seems. What's not natural is just handing things to players on a silver platter right away.

Dungeons and Trials already have Normal, Veteran, and Hard Mode for players that want to do the content but lack some of the skills, ability or time to devote to clearing whatever level. I realize more of your streamers/influencers fall into the low APM category now and that feels like what drives changes like this, but the more challenge you take away from the game, the more it will hurt it's playability. But I can tell you, watching those guys play the game when they are doing real content can be boring with that playstyle, so not the best thing to encourage long term.

I also think you need to do a bit more work on your dungeon and trial fight designs. The game shouldn't be balanced around content that is poorly designed. Some problems with players not being able to complete things isn't just on their own performance.

Sneaky-Snurr

RusevCrush wrote: »

Please don't dumb down your game for casuals. They'll come and go and be the first ones to bail because of performance issues. Don't lose the rest of us who've been here through it all.

Btw this change will only widen the gap. Casuals want to press a button or two over and over again.

ZOS must realise this. I keep coming back to the game for its fast-paced and intuitive combat playstyles and have been here since launch. This system has given me a lot of incentive to stay. I disagree and strongly dislike this proposed change. I don't see why I should stay on in the game if this proposal goes through.
This is not a threat, it is merely my deep expression of disappointment and quitting is just an expected outcome from it.

Dear, ZOS. I plead to you. Keep Light and Heavy attacks the same way it is now in Live server. Please, drop this proposed colossal change to the games core mechanics and do not ever attempt to revisit it. Just please, have the server optimised and eradicate the action-delay bug that came with the new patch.
We know you can do better, ZOS. That is why longtime players like me stayed with you all throughout all these years. Please don't let us down.

Drdeath20

Good players will still weave when possible. The difference is now I will drop my spammable for an extra DoT and use a heavy attack to round out my rotation. Might not need a recovery skill on my bar also. I will still have high APM but i will be using a less dynamic rotation.

ZeroXFF

xaraan wrote: »

I do have to say, I watched a stream the other day from one of the streamers that support the change b/c they already run heavy attack builds and almost fell asleep watching them hold one button down most of the fight with proc sets like iceheart even allowing them to do less work.

And they were doing a quasi-HM of a trial (one of the ones where you can just do mini boss with main boss). So it's not stopping people from doing content as it is on live now apparently.

Hard modes are designed to give those players that are high APM/skill/whatever you want to call it, a challenge. Changing that and you're just dumbing down the game and offering those players nothing. Things already get nerfed and with natural power creep, old content gets easier and easier to do. Frankly, watching players clear stuff like vMoL and get all the same rewards as people that had to work much harder to clear it in the past is bad enough. But it's a natural part of this sort of game it seems. What's not natural is just handing things to players on a silver platter right away.

Dungeons and Trials already have Normal, Veteran, and Hard Mode for players that want to do the content but lack some of the skills, ability or time to devote to clearing whatever level. I realize more of your streamers/influencers fall into the low APM category now and that feels like what drives changes like this, but the more challenge you take away from the game, the more it will hurt it's playability. But I can tell you, watching those guys play the game when they are doing real content can be boring with that playstyle, so not the best thing to encourage long term.

I also think you need to do a bit more work on your dungeon and trial fight designs. The game shouldn't be balanced around content that is poorly designed. Some problems with players not being able to complete things isn't just on their own performance.

The thing is, making sure that the gap between players is small allows the creation of more challenging content, because it is no longer necessary to balance around both a 10k DD and a 50k DD. If you create a DPS check assuming 10k DPS, it will be trivial for the 50k DD to pass it without even a 2nd DD in the group. But if it can be reasonably expected that everyone has at least 35k DPS, those mechanics can be made much harder, and now even the best players will no longer be able to sleep walk through the content.

Just imagine an overland zone where it actually matters what your build is. This could be a reality if the difference between the best and the worst players was 2x rather than 10x.

John_Falstaff

ZeroXFF wrote: »

The thing is, making sure that the gap between players is small allows the creation of more challenging content, because it is no longer necessary to balance around both a 10k DD and a 50k DD. If you create a DPS check assuming 10k DPS, it will be trivial for the 50k DD to pass it without even a 2nd DD in the group.

That's what we have normal modes for. There's no need for any other way of balancing between new/bad players and experienced players. As for overland, then there have already been calls for simply making it harder, and if it's too hard for players with 10k dps, well, it's an MMO, and nothing's wrong with asking zone chat to bring more people. Again no need to pull weak players up just because they can't kill a world boss on their own: the game is online for a good reason, harder overland stuff is meant to be done in a group.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi all, thanks for posting all your thoughts here. Just to make sure it's seen, Brian posted an update on these PTS changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6696597/#Comment_6696597

Troodon80

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for posting all your thoughts here. Just to make sure it's seen, Brian posted an update on these PTS changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6696597/#Comment_6696597

For whatever it's worth, and regardless of the feedback being positive or negative, I hope you continue doing small scale off-cycle updates. It gives you the ability to test smaller tweaks rather than sledgehammer/wrecking ball changes, finding the sweet spot, before they are considered for a proper full scale update, and it gives the community a venue for feedback on those changes, whether they're good, bad, need some adjusting, and even alternative suggestions (i.e. Code's suggestions), etc. It feels like we're involved in more, not just waiting for an update every 3 months or so.

Pearly

Thank you for listening to our feedback! I think many of us were very hesitant to see what your response would be, and if the feedback would actually have been meaningful and considered by you. This is a relief!

Blaqmagik

Any chance we can leave in the part about making all weapon light and heavy attacks scale off max resource?

Sincerely,
Melee magblade

JumpmanLane

I don’t care about the changes to LA and HA but I really like the off cycle PTS idea. I would hope ZOS could squeeze a few more in.

Elsonso

Troodon80 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for posting all your thoughts here. Just to make sure it's seen, Brian posted an update on these PTS changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6696597/#Comment_6696597

For whatever it's worth, and regardless of the feedback being positive or negative, I hope you continue doing small scale off-cycle updates.

Yes. Please do. I was too busy this time, but certainly see the benefits.

Dracane

I am very happy that this is out of the picture for now. At least greymoor will not be under such a bad star. I would have hated if something like this were to cloud the excitement for everything else to come.

5cript

Major kudos!

Now nobody can say anymore that you ignore all feedback.
The offcycle PTS thing was also something to praise.

I do agree though that there were some good things there. Like the heavy attack move speed and the highest stat scaling that could definitely stay!

xaraan

ZeroXFF wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I do have to say, I watched a stream the other day from one of the streamers that support the change b/c they already run heavy attack builds and almost fell asleep watching them hold one button down most of the fight with proc sets like iceheart even allowing them to do less work.

And they were doing a quasi-HM of a trial (one of the ones where you can just do mini boss with main boss). So it's not stopping people from doing content as it is on live now apparently.

Hard modes are designed to give those players that are high APM/skill/whatever you want to call it, a challenge. Changing that and you're just dumbing down the game and offering those players nothing. Things already get nerfed and with natural power creep, old content gets easier and easier to do. Frankly, watching players clear stuff like vMoL and get all the same rewards as people that had to work much harder to clear it in the past is bad enough. But it's a natural part of this sort of game it seems. What's not natural is just handing things to players on a silver platter right away.

Dungeons and Trials already have Normal, Veteran, and Hard Mode for players that want to do the content but lack some of the skills, ability or time to devote to clearing whatever level. I realize more of your streamers/influencers fall into the low APM category now and that feels like what drives changes like this, but the more challenge you take away from the game, the more it will hurt it's playability. But I can tell you, watching those guys play the game when they are doing real content can be boring with that playstyle, so not the best thing to encourage long term.

I also think you need to do a bit more work on your dungeon and trial fight designs. The game shouldn't be balanced around content that is poorly designed. Some problems with players not being able to complete things isn't just on their own performance.

The thing is, making sure that the gap between players is small allows the creation of more challenging content, because it is no longer necessary to balance around both a 10k DD and a 50k DD. If you create a DPS check assuming 10k DPS, it will be trivial for the 50k DD to pass it without even a 2nd DD in the group. But if it can be reasonably expected that everyone has at least 35k DPS, those mechanics can be made much harder, and now even the best players will no longer be able to sleep walk through the content.

Just imagine an overland zone where it actually matters what your build is. This could be a reality if the difference between the best and the worst players was 2x rather than 10x.

I saw the update about the changes, so I guess the discussion for now is on hold, but in response between us talking I'd say that in theory your concept makes sense. In practice however it seems to fall apart.

Look at the changes they offered here - it completely change the way fights would work in PvP. It raised the floor a little, lowered the ceiling for those that were not the top players (upper middle class we can call it) and actually gave the top guys even more dps with bash weaving. It completely changed the way the game is played for tanking and healing and any dps that's bothered to learn to weave.

Those top players will always be able to do things that the devs don't plan for and pull amazing dps. Making it so there are just two classes: those top guys, and everyone else - eliminates all the tiers of success for players that are in the middle. I'm in that category of players that isn't top APM (or whatever we wanna call it) and I've worked my butt off to get as close as I could. And I'm happy that even if I can't earn a top leaderboard score or the fanciest title, I can earn some scores and titles and rewards that still show something I've achieved that's worth working for.

There are also A LOT of players that don't even bother to learn how to perform better or do mechanics. And we've already watched dungeons being dumbed down for their benefit over the years, we don't need the floor raised so they can be handed better performance in their combat as well. That's not to say that closing that gap a little bit in smart ways can't be good, but the way they proposed was not that.

Frankly, you could do basic math and see the problems with the changes without any testing. I take issue with the crazy numbers they've been introducing for some things. You can't just throw stuff at the wall. If they had started from a smarter position, there'd have been less push back and testing would have been about fine tuning it instead of telling them the obvious. There are only so many weeks before a launch to balance changes, the crazier they start out, the less likely they are to actually be polished by the time they go live, or in this case, even make it to live.

xaraan

As for actual discussion based on the fact they aren't going through with this change yet (well, this would apply even if they were):

The new major slayer heavy attack DPS trial set need to be changed.

That's going to just be another Alkosh where support players have to run DPS sets to buff the DPS and free them up to run other sets, which is more power creep. Which is something that will happen naturally, but not dived into head first like that. Especially considering Lokke just came out last trial and is already being made borderline irrelevant (I'm sure there will be some niche uses still) by the new set.

And not a balance issue, but as a reward as well, it sucks. MagDPS get no good set to earn in the new trial and support as well when they are pretty much going to need to run this.

It should probably just give major slayer to the caster of the heavy attack. That would provide both stam (lokke) and now mag with two personal options for Major Slayer. And then the old options MA and WM as a niche multi-player buff.

Cinbri

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for posting all your thoughts here. Just to make sure it's seen, Brian posted an update on these PTS changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6696597/#Comment_6696597

Dissapointing. Like everything that happening in game this year. But too expectable that good changes won't make it way to the game, once again.

John_Falstaff

Good decision and pleasant surprise. I'm glad those horrible changes didn't make it to live. Now, I'm still not entirely convinced that it's listening to feedback as opposed to backlash being too strong, and the conclusion was to cater to people who actually play the game as opposed to boil the frog slower next time, but it still gives me hope.