overland is to easy

Contaminate

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

What boss is that?

The one all the "give me harder overland Content" guys want to get nerfed because it killed them. (World boss in Southern Elsweyr)

You mean the one that takes every piece of info about how to handle enemies in groups and throws it out the window by killing nearby players instantaneously the moment any AoE tickles them? Yeah, that's not difficulty, that's bad design.

Every dungeon with large enemy groups has the answer of "use AoE", and then suddenly without any hints at all, a new one comes out that breaks the pattern, and is the only one to break the pattern, whoever designed that boss was an ass, or just bad at their job.

That boss should at least provide combat hints in the death recap if it's going to have the only instance of an anti-AoE mechanic in the game. Even Grobull make it abundantly clear he's shooting something back when you hit him, and it's not instant death even in vet, it also has no punishment for AoEs.

The Cursed One has clear targeting beams and non-instantaneous death (usually, other times the beam starts right after a dps drops their ult and so you just smile and accept death in the next .5s), so generally it lets players react to the mechanic, instead of instantly nuking the tethered player if someone so much as light attacks it. The damage the tether deals is also directly proportional to the damage it takes, whereas the Southern Elsweyr boss's adds (not the actual boss, mind you, the adds) will nuke you whether you dropped a Nova directly on top of them or if a single tick of your Grothdar proc nicked them while you ran by.

Olauron

Contaminate wrote: »

Bolded the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this topic.

If players don’t get better at combat, there ABSOLUTELY should be a time when the game fails them and refuses them a win. They should NOT be able to defeat a quest boss that has been terrorizing cities and calling down mayhem for months, when they don’t even block his “ultimate move” or dodge out of his damage.

That's just common sense. As far as I know nobody is paying players for getting better in combat. Nobody is paying players for in-game achievements. That means that the only reason players will be better in combat is they like the process of combat and want to become better in it to have even more fun from it. If they don't like implemented combat they will try to skip it as much as they can and will not want to learn it.

By the way, there is no 'win' in overland PVE. You do not win a story, you complete it.

Sanguinor2

Contaminate wrote: »

You mean the one that takes every piece of info about how to handle enemies in groups and throws it out the window by killing nearby players instantaneously the moment any AoE tickles them? Yeah, that's not difficulty, that's bad design.

Every dungeon with large enemy groups has the answer of "use AoE", and then suddenly without any hints at all, a new one comes out that breaks the pattern, and is the only one to break the pattern, whoever designed that boss was an ass, or just bad at their job.

That boss should at least provide combat hints in the death recap if it's going to be have the only instance of an anti-AoE mechanic in the game. Even Grobull make it abundantly clear he's shooting something back when you hit him, and it's not instant death even in vet without blocking, it also has no punishment for AoEs.

The Cursed One has clear targeting beams and non-instantaneous death (usually, other times the beam starts right after a dps drops their ult and so you just smile and accept death in the next .5s)

Eh when I first did it it was Pretty clear to me that the Moment I threw blazing spear on them my Status bar lit up and I just dodgerolled and survived, not rocket science really.

Contaminate

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

You mean the one that takes every piece of info about how to handle enemies in groups and throws it out the window by killing nearby players instantaneously the moment any AoE tickles them? Yeah, that's not difficulty, that's bad design.

Every dungeon with large enemy groups has the answer of "use AoE", and then suddenly without any hints at all, a new one comes out that breaks the pattern, and is the only one to break the pattern, whoever designed that boss was an ass, or just bad at their job.

That boss should at least provide combat hints in the death recap if it's going to be have the only instance of an anti-AoE mechanic in the game. Even Grobull make it abundantly clear he's shooting something back when you hit him, and it's not instant death even in vet without blocking, it also has no punishment for AoEs.

The Cursed One has clear targeting beams and non-instantaneous death (usually, other times the beam starts right after a dps drops their ult and so you just smile and accept death in the next .5s)

Eh when I first did it it was Pretty clear to me that the Moment I threw blazing spear on them my Status bar lit up and I just dodgerolled and survived, not rocket science really.

I'll go ahead and quote myself here since I did a rather hefty edit

That boss should at least provide combat hints in the death recap if it's going to have the only instance of an anti-AoE mechanic in the game.

The damage the tether deals is also directly proportional to the damage it takes, whereas the Southern Elsweyr boss's adds (not the actual boss, mind you, the adds) will nuke you whether you dropped a Nova directly on top of them or if a single tick of your Grothdar proc nicked them while you ran by.

If it reflected damage based on damage they took, that'd be sensible. You focus the add that's enraged and flaring up when you hit it? It makes sense you'd die. It doesn't make sense for a full tank build to get nuked instantaneously because they have RoR up.

Contaminate

Olauron wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Bolded the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this topic.

If players don’t get better at combat, there ABSOLUTELY should be a time when the game fails them and refuses them a win. They should NOT be able to defeat a quest boss that has been terrorizing cities and calling down mayhem for months, when they don’t even block his “ultimate move” or dodge out of his damage.

That's just common sense. As far as I know nobody is paying players for getting better in combat. Nobody is paying players for in-game achievements. That means that the only reason players will be better in combat is they like the process of combat and want to become better in it to have even more fun from it. If they don't like implemented combat they will try to skip it as much as they can and will not want to learn it.

By the way, there is no 'win' in overland PVE. You do not win a story, you complete it.

It's a good thing this is supposed to be a game then, which you absolutely can win.

Olauron

Contaminate wrote: »

It's a good thing this is supposed to be a game then, which you absolutely can win.

You mean a role-playing game, where you assume a role - a personality - of your character, make appropriate choices through the story, receive consequences of these choices and experience the character development by these choices. The type of game where combat is not really on the first place as it can be absent.

Infectious1X

redspecter23 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yep, overland is unbearably easy and unrewarding, I may complete quests only with beer in 1 hand and some sport cast in background, otherwise I felt like I will immediately fall asleep from boredom. So far I found that best way to explore ESO lore is to read UESP articles from mobile, writing and stories are often interesting, but gameplay is unbearable.

Spoiler alert: I do quests on my no-CP PVP characters with 0 allocated CPs and without food. Everything still dies in seconds and if I play on my PVE CP810 dps, mobs are just swiped as I go, I don't need to weave or anything I just spam gap closer+snare removal+aoe between mob groups and they all die or reset. Ah, and interface is turned off too.

And yet I still see new players struggling with overland every day. It's almost like they haven't been playing as long as you have and don't have the experience with the game and systems.

Just because you're awesome, never assume everyone is as awesome as you are.

It’s almost as if these players are... new? Obviously they’re going to find easy content to be difficult if they have no clue what they’re doing. Thing is, they won’t be new for very long.

idk

Davadin wrote: »

so ZOS isn't changing the whole global scaling and difficulty stuff......... here's what crossed my mind while I'm in the shower.


If overland mob's level of difficulty is, say, 1. and world boss is lv5, and trial is lv10 or something....

what I want to see is the compression of the scale. everything compressed to the 2nd half.

so lv 1 = 6
lv 10 = 10.

so lv5 is... lv7? lv 7.5?

while player's progression (health damage CP etc.) is also reduced to the 2nd half. the gap between the weakest player and the stongest player is not too too far anymore.

so it's a bit more... realistic scaling?

the ultra-casual feels strong, but the weakest overland also feels a bit stronger.
the elitist stays strong, but if they need to hit the weakest enemy it won't feel like they're shooting wet tissues....



....more like a damp cardboard, but y'know.......

TLDR; make the low-end of the spectrum scales higher so it won't bother the casual, but let elitist keep some immershun....

There are two reasons why this will not happen.

First, you are very incorrect in saying the gap between the weakest player and strongest player is not too too far anymore as that gap just keeps getting wider. If you are suggesting that with your idea would close that gap then there is nothing in this post that suggest it will actually happen.

Second, you are suggesting a WB is lvl 5 and you want overland to be lvl 5, brought up to the difficulty of a WB. I can already see the exodus of a large number of players (revenue) when trash mobs are as challenging as Keelsplitter or the gryphon WBs. Yes, I have soloed most of the WBs in the zone I just chose as an example. Not sure if I soloed Gryphons.

But good to get creative with thinking about these things.

kaisernick

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yep, overland is unbearably easy and unrewarding, I may complete quests only with beer in 1 hand and some sport cast in background, otherwise I felt like I will immediately fall asleep from boredom. So far I found that best way to explore ESO lore is to read UESP articles from mobile, writing and stories are often interesting, but gameplay is unbearable.

Spoiler alert: I do quests on my no-CP PVP characters with 0 allocated CPs and without food. Everything still dies in seconds and if I play on my PVE CP810 dps, mobs are just swiped as I go, I don't need to weave or anything I just spam gap closer+snare removal+aoe between mob groups and they all die or reset. Ah, and interface is turned off too.

And yet I still see new players struggling with overland every day. It's almost like they haven't been playing as long as you have and don't have the experience with the game and systems.

Just because you're awesome, never assume everyone is as awesome as you are.

ok heres my idea cuz i dont think i made it clear:

each zone has a min level eg
bleakrock isle = 0
stonefalls = 5
deshaan = 15 ect

then the overland would scale to the player from that point.

NO
As someone who likes playing alts i love the one tamerial as i can do content in areas i have never done on new characters a world scaled for anyone to enjoy is vital.

And if you dont beleive its a good thing then why is WoW the grandaddy of all MMO's doing the same thing?

FierceSam

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that .

And that’s what World Bosses do.

It’s not what overland mobs do. And that’s because a lot of players don’t block, dodge, or interrupt. It takes time to learn to do that and ZOS provides zero help in educating/training/improving players. What you’re describing is where overland ends up. And you get there by slowly confronting and defeating enemies of increasing difficulty. You want everyone to arrive at the destination without having made the journey.

We don’t want a game where new players are immediately killed repeatedly because a very, very tiny minority want overland mobs to be playing Dead Souls. Because, believe me, that is a fully no fun situation. If we want that we’ll just go to PvP.

Just because you’ve learnt to read big words, doesn’t mean you should beat on less experienced people who are just learning their ABC.

jcm2606

FierceSam wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that .

And that’s what World Bosses do.

It’s not what overland mobs do. And that’s because a lot of players don’t block, dodge, or interrupt. It takes time to learn to do that and ZOS provides zero help in educating/training/improving players. What you’re describing is where overland ends up. And you get there by slowly confronting and defeating enemies of increasing difficulty. You want everyone to arrive at the destination without having made the journey.

We don’t want a game where new players are immediately killed repeatedly because a very, very tiny minority want overland mobs to be playing Dead Souls. Because, believe me, that is a fully no fun situation. If we want that we’ll just go to PvP.

Just because you’ve learnt to read big words, doesn’t mean you should beat on less experienced people who are just learning their ABC.

When the only content that requires beyond 5% effort (world bosses) is completely optional, that's not your destination, that's side content. Overland absolutely does not end up there, if it did, then you'd be having to dodge, block and heal way before you even reach Coldharbour, let alone zones beyond that (as far as pre-1T progression path is concerned, ie faction zones -> Coldharbour -> faction zones again if not done -> Cadwell's Silver -> Cadwell's Gold).

idk

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more mechanics in overland content that require you to block, interrupt, etc. Right now, world bosses are the closest thing to that. An argument could be made that these are what are in the game to prepare people for dungeons. Not really, but it is the closest thing. But it is there if you are inclined to look for it.

I don't think mobs or delves or even the public dungeons should be a training ground, though. Those are just step-ups from the annoying adds that you find along the pathways. I don't need everything to push my limits the way a vet DLC dungeon does. Because I don't want to play a game that is vMHK all the time. Some of the time, sure. All of the time, no.

Group content training, if you will, should be done in a group setting. Overland grouping is unnecessary. The Alik'r dolmens are an example of that. Plus, it doesn't teach players anything. But forcing group content into solo overland questing would be a mistake. Just as forcing PVP into overland content has been a mistake in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. I think you'd be surprised as to how many players there are who do not want to do the group content in overland zones. Just because you and I love to run the group content doesn't mean everyone shares our feelings.

Dungeons and trials are where people learn how to play together. They are wholly optional as you do not need the gear out of those areas unless you are running PVE endgame or PVP. I have no problem with the current setup with the normal versions teaching players how to run the veteran and DLC content. Even if that means every one of my alternates is born a war machine that can wreck all on day one in overland content.

Finally, I don't think making overland content harder would make players better. The dungeon group finder has concretely proven that. If anything, making the base game harder would just make people complain that the endgame content is too easy

I highly doubt bringing the required skill floor up a bit would do anything to affect the potential skill ceiling.

The skill ceiling is rather irrelevant to the discussion even if someone brought it up.

What it would do is remove some of the player base which is a bad business idea and why major MMORPGs today do not even try to make overland challenging and instead provide tiered difficulty via dungeons, arenas and trials.

Such aspects of the business model are ignored or glossed over by these requests.

jcm2606

idk wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more mechanics in overland content that require you to block, interrupt, etc. Right now, world bosses are the closest thing to that. An argument could be made that these are what are in the game to prepare people for dungeons. Not really, but it is the closest thing. But it is there if you are inclined to look for it.

I don't think mobs or delves or even the public dungeons should be a training ground, though. Those are just step-ups from the annoying adds that you find along the pathways. I don't need everything to push my limits the way a vet DLC dungeon does. Because I don't want to play a game that is vMHK all the time. Some of the time, sure. All of the time, no.

Group content training, if you will, should be done in a group setting. Overland grouping is unnecessary. The Alik'r dolmens are an example of that. Plus, it doesn't teach players anything. But forcing group content into solo overland questing would be a mistake. Just as forcing PVP into overland content has been a mistake in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. I think you'd be surprised as to how many players there are who do not want to do the group content in overland zones. Just because you and I love to run the group content doesn't mean everyone shares our feelings.

Dungeons and trials are where people learn how to play together. They are wholly optional as you do not need the gear out of those areas unless you are running PVE endgame or PVP. I have no problem with the current setup with the normal versions teaching players how to run the veteran and DLC content. Even if that means every one of my alternates is born a war machine that can wreck all on day one in overland content.

Finally, I don't think making overland content harder would make players better. The dungeon group finder has concretely proven that. If anything, making the base game harder would just make people complain that the endgame content is too easy

I highly doubt bringing the required skill floor up a bit would do anything to affect the potential skill ceiling.

The skill ceiling is rather irrelevant to the discussion even if someone brought it up.

What it would do is remove some of the player base which is a bad business idea and why major MMORPGs today do not even try to make overland challenging and instead provide tiered difficulty via dungeons, arenas and trials.

Such aspects of the business model are ignored or glossed over by these requests.

GW2 would like a word. For starters, mobs don't die in 1-2 hits. Next, mechanics are actually punishing if you aren't paying attention. Thirdly, it still retains a traditional leveled zone approach, with player downscaling to combat over-leveling of content. And finally, it feels just as alive, if not more so than ESO, so no, players aren't driven away from such an approach.

idk

jcm2606 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more mechanics in overland content that require you to block, interrupt, etc. Right now, world bosses are the closest thing to that. An argument could be made that these are what are in the game to prepare people for dungeons. Not really, but it is the closest thing. But it is there if you are inclined to look for it.

I don't think mobs or delves or even the public dungeons should be a training ground, though. Those are just step-ups from the annoying adds that you find along the pathways. I don't need everything to push my limits the way a vet DLC dungeon does. Because I don't want to play a game that is vMHK all the time. Some of the time, sure. All of the time, no.

Group content training, if you will, should be done in a group setting. Overland grouping is unnecessary. The Alik'r dolmens are an example of that. Plus, it doesn't teach players anything. But forcing group content into solo overland questing would be a mistake. Just as forcing PVP into overland content has been a mistake in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. I think you'd be surprised as to how many players there are who do not want to do the group content in overland zones. Just because you and I love to run the group content doesn't mean everyone shares our feelings.

Dungeons and trials are where people learn how to play together. They are wholly optional as you do not need the gear out of those areas unless you are running PVE endgame or PVP. I have no problem with the current setup with the normal versions teaching players how to run the veteran and DLC content. Even if that means every one of my alternates is born a war machine that can wreck all on day one in overland content.

Finally, I don't think making overland content harder would make players better. The dungeon group finder has concretely proven that. If anything, making the base game harder would just make people complain that the endgame content is too easy

I highly doubt bringing the required skill floor up a bit would do anything to affect the potential skill ceiling.

The skill ceiling is rather irrelevant to the discussion even if someone brought it up.

What it would do is remove some of the player base which is a bad business idea and why major MMORPGs today do not even try to make overland challenging and instead provide tiered difficulty via dungeons, arenas and trials.

Such aspects of the business model are ignored or glossed over by these requests.

GW2 would like a word. For starters, mobs don't die in 1-2 hits. Next, mechanics are actually punishing if you aren't paying attention. Thirdly, it still retains a traditional leveled zone approach, with player downscaling to combat over-leveling of content. And finally, it feels just as alive, if not more so than ESO, so no, players aren't driven away from such an approach.

That is one game and only one game. It seems the larger portion of the market does not see it as important or is not interested in catering to that small group of players.

I am surprised you mentioned the traditional leveled zone. To get any sort of challenge I had to be at least 10 levels above the zone. I can see why the modern MMORPG is leaving that archaic idea behind. To each their own. I remember when all dungeon were scaled to a specific level. It seems such a poor design to have so much content unavailable at end game. Even the vet dungeons were scaled to a vet level range.

But we are all entitled to our opinion. I am glad you found GW2 and that it meets your needs. I assume that is the case because I could not see speaking so fondly of a game if it was not the one I wanted to play.

ACamaroGuy

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/362596/pve-combat-is-too-easy-please-add-a-vet-mode-for-overland-content

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488280/overland-and-story-boring


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/476326/seriously-this-game-is-too-easy-and-the-overworld-needs-to-be-buffed-heavily

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454957/onto-the-discussion-for-difficulty-again

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/476144/discussion-questing-and-overland-pve-content-in-general-needs-a-serious-change-my-two-cents

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/494993/animation-canceling-easy-overlandcontent


you are not original with this.


my 2 cents, i have seen people die to pve mobs before, the game is hard for some. personally, i avoid the dlc dungeons because they are are to much effort for very little rewards. i love going ham on easy mobs in pve, part of the power fantasy and makes it feel like all the effort i but into my "build" was worth it.

i like hard content.

then play the hard content, there are at lest 10 dlc vet dungeons and 4 vet trial for you.

I agree, I didn't play the DLC vet dungeons because they take to long with trash as a reward.

jcm2606

idk wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more mechanics in overland content that require you to block, interrupt, etc. Right now, world bosses are the closest thing to that. An argument could be made that these are what are in the game to prepare people for dungeons. Not really, but it is the closest thing. But it is there if you are inclined to look for it.

I don't think mobs or delves or even the public dungeons should be a training ground, though. Those are just step-ups from the annoying adds that you find along the pathways. I don't need everything to push my limits the way a vet DLC dungeon does. Because I don't want to play a game that is vMHK all the time. Some of the time, sure. All of the time, no.

Group content training, if you will, should be done in a group setting. Overland grouping is unnecessary. The Alik'r dolmens are an example of that. Plus, it doesn't teach players anything. But forcing group content into solo overland questing would be a mistake. Just as forcing PVP into overland content has been a mistake in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. I think you'd be surprised as to how many players there are who do not want to do the group content in overland zones. Just because you and I love to run the group content doesn't mean everyone shares our feelings.

Dungeons and trials are where people learn how to play together. They are wholly optional as you do not need the gear out of those areas unless you are running PVE endgame or PVP. I have no problem with the current setup with the normal versions teaching players how to run the veteran and DLC content. Even if that means every one of my alternates is born a war machine that can wreck all on day one in overland content.

Finally, I don't think making overland content harder would make players better. The dungeon group finder has concretely proven that. If anything, making the base game harder would just make people complain that the endgame content is too easy

I highly doubt bringing the required skill floor up a bit would do anything to affect the potential skill ceiling.

The skill ceiling is rather irrelevant to the discussion even if someone brought it up.

What it would do is remove some of the player base which is a bad business idea and why major MMORPGs today do not even try to make overland challenging and instead provide tiered difficulty via dungeons, arenas and trials.

Such aspects of the business model are ignored or glossed over by these requests.

GW2 would like a word. For starters, mobs don't die in 1-2 hits. Next, mechanics are actually punishing if you aren't paying attention. Thirdly, it still retains a traditional leveled zone approach, with player downscaling to combat over-leveling of content. And finally, it feels just as alive, if not more so than ESO, so no, players aren't driven away from such an approach.

That is one game and only one game. It seems the larger portion of the market does not see it as important or is not interested in catering to that small group of players.

I am surprised you mentioned the traditional leveled zone. To get any sort of challenge I had to be at least 10 levels above the zone. I can see why the modern MMORPG is leaving that archaic idea behind. To each their own. I remember when all dungeon were scaled to a specific level. It seems such a poor design to have so much content unavailable at end game. Even the vet dungeons were scaled to a vet level range.

But we are all entitled to our opinion. I am glad you found GW2 and that it meets your needs. I assume that is the case because I could not see speaking so fondly of a game if it was not the one I wanted to play.

It offers a more well defined sense of progression through the content, giving newer players a much better idea of what they should be doing, while not completely alienating vets from where most of the content is. All the while, the downscaling allows vets to go back into earlier zones, and they'll be at the perfect level for a given area in that zone, based on the zone's range.

Challenge comes from a few things.

Firstly, mobs have enough health to not get 1-2 shot by players (a trash mob maybe takes 4-5 hits from my Reaper's greatsword auto chain, which is maybe 4-5 seconds; vet mobs have even more health, and so take longer to kill; elites even more health; and champions are intended for groups, and so can take a good 5+ minutes to kill solo), while also dealing a decent amount of damage themselves. This means that you actually have to pay even a little bit of attention to what you're doing, as opposed to running on complete auto pilot.

Secondly, defensive actions, such as block, dodge or heals, all either have fairly long cooldowns (anywhere from 15-30 seconds), or are on a fairly small resource pool, which means you avoid getting hit in the first place, rather than letting yourself get hit and dealing with the consequences. Have to pay even more attention, to avoid having to put a block or heal on cooldown, or running out of endurance and rendering yourself unable to dodge.

Thirdly, mob mechanics can actually be punishing, between dealing high burst damage, stunlocking you, crippling you, or even adding some "reflected" damage each time you move or cast a skill. If you don't follow mechanics, you're punished for it. Simple as that.

Early zones mostly mix one or two of these things, while late game zones have a plethora of mobs that throw all 3 at you. You really don't want to pull an entire group on you, and you really don't want to pull a vet or elite mob if there's other mobs nearby. Even if you're on a well geared character, playing a class that offers a ton of defensive options (Warrior with its high passive healing and mitigation, Guardian with its plethora of defensive tools and auto-block, Necro with its second health bar and minions taking agro), one wrong move in harder overland content can mean insta-death, and at times it's mostly just you dodging out of AoE's, waiting for the opportune moment to land a few attacks.

I'm not necessarily asking for something like that, it is too late for ESO to become that, and obviously most people won't enjoy it, but I am asking for it to become something like that. You should take a few seconds to kill trash, you should be fighting a boss for a few minutes, you should have to block, dodge and heal to stay alive, and you should be punished if you can't meet the baseline. Even in full raid gear.

Megatto

I feel like it's posts like these that cause DPS to get nerfed all around. Please stop and just go do some trials or arenas, or go to Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds

idk

jcm2606 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I don't disagree with you. There should be more mechanics in overland content that require you to block, interrupt, etc. Right now, world bosses are the closest thing to that. An argument could be made that these are what are in the game to prepare people for dungeons. Not really, but it is the closest thing. But it is there if you are inclined to look for it.

I don't think mobs or delves or even the public dungeons should be a training ground, though. Those are just step-ups from the annoying adds that you find along the pathways. I don't need everything to push my limits the way a vet DLC dungeon does. Because I don't want to play a game that is vMHK all the time. Some of the time, sure. All of the time, no.

Group content training, if you will, should be done in a group setting. Overland grouping is unnecessary. The Alik'r dolmens are an example of that. Plus, it doesn't teach players anything. But forcing group content into solo overland questing would be a mistake. Just as forcing PVP into overland content has been a mistake in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. I think you'd be surprised as to how many players there are who do not want to do the group content in overland zones. Just because you and I love to run the group content doesn't mean everyone shares our feelings.

Dungeons and trials are where people learn how to play together. They are wholly optional as you do not need the gear out of those areas unless you are running PVE endgame or PVP. I have no problem with the current setup with the normal versions teaching players how to run the veteran and DLC content. Even if that means every one of my alternates is born a war machine that can wreck all on day one in overland content.

Finally, I don't think making overland content harder would make players better. The dungeon group finder has concretely proven that. If anything, making the base game harder would just make people complain that the endgame content is too easy

I highly doubt bringing the required skill floor up a bit would do anything to affect the potential skill ceiling.

The skill ceiling is rather irrelevant to the discussion even if someone brought it up.

What it would do is remove some of the player base which is a bad business idea and why major MMORPGs today do not even try to make overland challenging and instead provide tiered difficulty via dungeons, arenas and trials.

Such aspects of the business model are ignored or glossed over by these requests.

GW2 would like a word. For starters, mobs don't die in 1-2 hits. Next, mechanics are actually punishing if you aren't paying attention. Thirdly, it still retains a traditional leveled zone approach, with player downscaling to combat over-leveling of content. And finally, it feels just as alive, if not more so than ESO, so no, players aren't driven away from such an approach.

That is one game and only one game. It seems the larger portion of the market does not see it as important or is not interested in catering to that small group of players.

I am surprised you mentioned the traditional leveled zone. To get any sort of challenge I had to be at least 10 levels above the zone. I can see why the modern MMORPG is leaving that archaic idea behind. To each their own. I remember when all dungeon were scaled to a specific level. It seems such a poor design to have so much content unavailable at end game. Even the vet dungeons were scaled to a vet level range.

But we are all entitled to our opinion. I am glad you found GW2 and that it meets your needs. I assume that is the case because I could not see speaking so fondly of a game if it was not the one I wanted to play.

It offers a more well defined sense of progression through the content, giving newer players a much better idea of what they should be doing, while not completely alienating vets from where most of the content is. All the while, the downscaling allows vets to go back into earlier zones, and they'll be at the perfect level for a given area in that zone, based on the zone's range.

Challenge comes from a few things.

Firstly, mobs have enough health to not get 1-2 shot by players (a trash mob maybe takes 4-5 hits from my Reaper's greatsword auto chain, which is maybe 4-5 seconds; vet mobs have even more health, and so take longer to kill; elites even more health; and champions are intended for groups, and so can take a good 5+ minutes to kill solo), while also dealing a decent amount of damage themselves. This means that you actually have to pay even a little bit of attention to what you're doing, as opposed to running on complete auto pilot.

So you say having level locked zones "offers a more well defined sense of progression through the content". It was pretty trivial as we quickly over leveled a zone making it far to easy. The number of hits on an NPC in a level lock zone is also very irrelevant. That comes from a developer design and could just as easily be created in a situation like 1T. Zos has clearly chosen to not have it that way. That does not even get into the huge power creep we have had the past few years.

I edited out the rest because I did not find they made much sense. TBF, I stopped reading when I read the second point where you seem to question being able to avoid getting hit vs allowing us to get hit and face the consequences.

If you were here when the game launched and leveled a second character a few months later you would have seen Zos consciously removed some mechanics from quest fights and made other changes to the few instanced quests to make them easier. This was obviously a conscious effort. Also, when Zos did try to make the vet zones ( vet rank 1-10) a little more challenging they changed it back after the player base made it known that was not welcome. I doubt they will be interested in changing that course.

Personally I think anyone who wanted overland to be more challenging would be crying out for Zos to revert the huge power creep they have cast upon this game over the past few years and to keep it in check. CP has little to do with that, but changes Zos has made almost every update has more than doubled our DPS. But no. That is never palatable.

jcm2606

idk wrote: »

So you say having level locked zones "offers a more well defined sense of progression through the content".

Level locked zones do offer a more well defined sense of progression through the content, because there is a more well defined sense of progression through the content.

In a level locked zone, you start off in a low level zone, and gradually move to higher and higher level zones, as you complete the content. If you're too low level for a zone, the game pushes you back by shoving a massive difficulty spike in your face the moment you try to fight a mob, and so you learn that you haven't progressed far enough into the game to play in that zone, without some serious willpower. If you're too high a level for a zone, the game pushed you forward by removing most of the rewards you get from that zone, and so you learn that you're too strong for that zone. (I personally think handling over leveling in this way isn't good, see my below response for my take on how it should be handled.)

In ESO, you start off in a zone that's the same level as every other zone, free to quest wherever. This sounds nice and all, and may even be nice in practice for some players, but others will very quickly find themselves lost, as the game just doesn't have any sense of progression to it, at least until you hit CP 160 and you run into the issue us vets have.

Too often I've seen posts and messages from newer players who are overwhelmed and have no idea where to go or what to do next, as the progression is just too loose. Under a more traditional leveled zone system, this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

idk wrote: »

It was pretty trivial as we quickly over leveled a zone making it far to easy.

Over leveling content is a problem, though. I feel that GW2 solves it quite nicely through level downscaling, where if you're a higher level than the zone's level range, your effective level is reduced to one that's more appropriate, and your base stats are reduced to reflect that.

This completely solves over leveling content, while still leaving under leveling, which, as explained, helps give a better sense of progression.

Also want to mention that the problem us vets are having with overland content is an issue of over leveling, so shouldn't we have something done about it?

idk wrote: »

The number of hits on an NPC in a level lock zone is also very irrelevant.

This isn't in a level locked zone, this is in max level zones, which is constant. Level locked zones can fluctuate, but are all around the same, assuming your level is being downscaled and you're at the "level cap" for that zone.

idk wrote: »

I edited out the rest because I did not find they made much sense. TBF, I stopped reading when I read the second point where you seem to question being able to avoid getting hit vs allowing us to get hit and face the consequences.

I was saying that in GW2, you really need to avoid getting hit in the first place (making sure you're following mechanics, paying attention to where you're standing, etc), because you can't afford to be hit many times in a row due to long cooldowns and few dodges. Mobs punish you for being hit and/or not following mechanics, by forcing you to use a limited use defensive tool.

For instance, not every class has a convenient way of breaking stuns, so if you're stunned, you may have to sit in it for the full duration (a few seconds), while the mob lays into you, dealing heavy damage. Not every class has access to healing on a short cooldown, so letting yourself get low and then having to heal can prevent you from healing on the next attack. Not every class has access to a convenient CC, so mechanics tied to break bars (basically a bar that gets depleted whenever you apply a soft or hard CC) can be painful on these classes, making you have to pay attention that much more.

Meanwhile over here in ESO, overland mobs, including bosses, are so forgiving that it's actually ridiculous. You can let yourself be stunned, sit in a stun for the full duration, and come out with most of your health, because the mob doesn't do much damage, nor does it have any sort of mechanic that punishes you for sitting in a stun.

idk wrote: »

If you were here when the game launched and leveled a second character a few months later you would have seen Zos consciously removed some mechanics from quest fights and made other changes to the few instanced quests to make them easier. This was obviously a conscious effort.

I'm not questioning whether Zenimax has nerfed overland content, I know they did. I'm questioning whether they've nerfed it too far, to the point where it's too easy. Gameplay and mechanics should not be optional, even for casuals. You shouldn't be able to breeze past mobs and bosses on complete auto pilot, not even paying attention to what's going on.

Not only does extremely easy gameplay make the gameplay much more unengaging and unenjoyable, but it actively hurts those learning the game, as there's a huge disconnect between what overland asks of you, and what everything else asks of you. Overland should be gradually building you up for that content, preparing you for that content, forming the muscle memory needed to stay alive in that content.

But it doesn't. And it shows, when newer players struggle in normal dungeons, which are just barely a step above overland for us vets, for some of the earlier base game dungeons. Newer players struggle, both because the game does a *** poor job at teaching them, and because the game has never once needed that sort of gameplay, in their time questing and enjoying overland content.

GW2, a lot of the stuff you learn questing and leveling, is applicable to end game content. You very much do need to avoid being hit in the first place, you very much do need to follow mechanics, you very much do need to pay attention to break bars. All of that is applicable to end game PvE, and PvP. You can't afford to block or heal every attack in PvP, you will to actively avoid getting hit in the first place. CC is an extremely strong tool against other players, due to the lack of options to deal with back to back CC spam. Stunlocking is just as brutal in PvP, as it is in PvE, if not more so, so you absolutely need to slot a stunbreak.

ESO? Almost everything necessary in end game PvE and PvP, is completely optional in overland. And that shouldn't be the case.

idk wrote: »

Personally I think anyone who wanted overland to be more challenging would be crying out for Zos to revert the huge power creep they have cast upon this game over the past few years and to keep it in check. CP has little to do with that, but changes Zos has made almost every update has more than doubled our DPS. But no. That is never palatable.

Overland has been too easy ever since 1T dropped. Power creep certainly hasn't helped, but it's not the cause.

Zephard

Davadin wrote: »

PPS: ESO should not nerf anything. simply DOUBLE (no ***, DOUBLE. that's 100% increase) the damage that overland NPC delivers, and TRIPLE (oh yes, that's 200% INCREASE for a total of 300%) AGGRO RANGE.

You love fishing right? Cause that aggro range suggestion screams you are a fisher. Nothing better than doing tons of foul fishing. And enjoying that constant need to stop fishing to kill something cause you were there trying to fish.

Also, its the best that at least a quarter if not a third of mats are currently in the range of an aggressive mob, so your suggestion would make farming relaxing to for those that do a ton of it.

Overland is more than just a micro excursion away from a dungeon.

Contaminate wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

]
The thing is most players will get better at combat if the want it.

Bolded the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this topic.

If players don’t get better at combat, there ABSOLUTELY should be a time when the game fails them and refuses them a win. They should NOT be able to defeat a quest boss that has been terrorizing cities and calling down mayhem for months, when they don’t even block his “ultimate move” or dodge out of his damage.

That’s not engaging, that’s throwing a paper football at the player with the words “scary boss” written on it, and then saying “That’s an ultimate enemy. Look, it says so on the wrapper!”

Combat isn’t good if half of it is practically optional like it is right now.

So Contaminate, you never studied the art of teaching, aye? Until someone "wants" to learn, they will not learn. So you keep trying to push "learning" on those who are unwilling to learn. Keep trying to find a way to force them to learn or fail.
Harder content is in the game. If they want to do it, they will learn how and get to doing it. You complain people try harder content and are carried rather than are allowed to fail. That seems to be saying, other students are allowing them to cheat. No system will stop this also long as others are enablers.

Quest are stories. Plan and simple. Some people like to think of the quest as challenging, but really they are story. You do the quest for the story, that is why so many people don't do them. Make the bosses harder will not make people more interested in the story.



I really like the idea that so many people are suggesting... please give us an option to make ourselves weaker. That seems so laughable...you want to be weaker....what? I have never suggested that, nope, and then been laughed at, cause that is totally against what people want. Except this concept of a slider, it is hiding somehow your view of getting weaker, instead of my suggestion which was to obvious. Good to know I wasn't totally out there with my suggestion.

jcm2606 wrote: »

I'm not necessarily asking for something like that, it is too late for ESO to become that, and obviously most people won't enjoy it, but I am asking for it to become something like that. You should take a few seconds to kill trash, you should be fighting a boss for a few minutes, you should have to block, dodge and heal to stay alive, and you should be punished if you can't meet the baseline. Even in full raid gear.

And doing all that only to grab that mountain flower, which you find was only a worm cause someone took the mountain flower and left the worm. Yeap, that is enjoyable farming for you.

Contaminate

Zephard wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

]
The thing is most players will get better at combat if the want it.

Bolded the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this topic.

If players don’t get better at combat, there ABSOLUTELY should be a time when the game fails them and refuses them a win. They should NOT be able to defeat a quest boss that has been terrorizing cities and calling down mayhem for months, when they don’t even block his “ultimate move” or dodge out of his damage.

That’s not engaging, that’s throwing a paper football at the player with the words “scary boss” written on it, and then saying “That’s an ultimate enemy. Look, it says so on the wrapper!”

Combat isn’t good if half of it is practically optional like it is right now.

So Contaminate, you never studied the art of teaching, aye? Until someone "wants" to learn, they will not learn. So you keep trying to push "learning" on those who are unwilling to learn. Keep trying to find a way to force them to learn or fail.
Harder content is in the game. If they want to do it, they will learn how and get to doing it. You complain people try harder content and are carried rather than are allowed to fail. That seems to be saying, other students are allowing them to cheat. No system will stop this also long as others are enablers.

I sure do hope you didn’t attend a school that passed literally everyone so long as they showed up for the test and wrote their name. That’s how education goes down the drain, and that is actually how ESO treats it’s players. There’s currently no incentive at all to learn. I never said people get carried through harder content, I said solo content has such a low risk of failure even while ignoring the basics of the basics of combat, when it should rightfully keep victory away from them.

Quest are stories. Plan and simple. Some people like to think of the quest as challenging, but really they are story. You do the quest for the story, that is why so many people don't do them. Make the bosses harder will not make people more interested in the story.

If I read a book that built up the enemy’s armies archmage as a terrifying force wielding elemental magic and ordering scores of flame spirits to do his bidding, I would not be alone in my disappoint when the hero simply walks up, gets hit by every spell without any real attempt to dodge, ignores all of his loyal spirits while they channels attacks at him, only clumsily swings his sword at the mage, and proceeds to win in the span of 10s.

That or he arrives, uses one thrown dagger, and the archmage dies instantaneously.

That’s ESO’s storytelling in a nutshell. It’s not immersive and tbh it just plain sucks to try getting into any of that narrative because it falls so flat on its face it’s impossible to be enjoyed if you have more than a lick of experience in anything beyond overland.

That bolded part just shows how completely out of touch you are as to WHY people want overland to provide more challenge than none at all. People want to enjoy and immerse themselves in questing when that’s the majority of content, and right now they can’t because every enemy is a joke.

Khenarthi

I have no issues with the existence of a difficulty slider for overland - as in the single player games, some people prefer to play on Legendary, others on Easy.

I have issues with adding extra rewards for harder difficulty, but if I an honest, it's just jelousy because I have poor reflexes.

Jeremy

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Well I can only speak for myself. But I'm not asking for a dramatic difficulty increase. Just enough of a boost to where they can at least provide an interesting enough challenge that actually engages the player, instead of just mindlessly slaughtering them in a second or two.

So the premise of your post is inaccurate, at least as it concerns me. I"m not asking for the overland to provide a "serious" challenge on par with soloing veteran dungeons. But I would like to see the enemies at least to have enough health, defense, and offenses to where they can fight back and make the player consider some defensive strategies.

In any case: I don't understand what the problem is with offering players a veteran overland to quest in. It would be optional - and players who didn't want to play in it wouldn't have to. So I just don't see a good argument here as to why people should oppose it.

I think (personal opinion only here) that offering "a vet overland to quest in" would require a MUCH more robust server farm.... It's not going to happen with the megaserver concept they are utilizing now. So, how do you think that's going to work? Obviously, ZOS isn't into spending money on infrastructure....

Am I having issues playing? Nope. But I just quest overland, craft, do whatever of the events are fun for me. If you expect ZOS to manage a multiplicity of instances so that each zone can have a "normal" and a "vet" option.... Well.... you might need to smoke something a LOT stronger....

For someone like me, the game works just fine. For people who want stuff like you do.... it's not going to happen, because if it DOES happen, the sky actually WILL fall. I'm not really sure why ZOS went this direction with the server setup, but seriously, if they WANT millions of people playing (and paying for) their game, they HAVE to do what WoW has done. Which is many servers so that the population is spread out where things like what people have been seeing in events, dungeons, pvp don't happen.

If they don't - well.... you have what we see now.

If you want to make money, you have to spend it. If you want millions of players paying you - throwing money at you - you have to do what other games have done.

I don't see ZOS doing that. It's not a concern to me, as the game is fine for me. And when the servers go dark, I'll go elsewhere. Anyone who's outside that demographic.... uh.... good luck, and have fun?

Having a mega server or what not wouldn't have any impact on this. The zones on this game are still instanced. So you just set up a separate instance and scale the monsters to 810 (instead of 160 or what ever it is they are scaled to currently). It would be very easy to do and wouldn't require an upgrade in infrastructure or anything like that. It's basically the same thing they already do with their dungeons, arenas, trials....etc.

Considering the amount of players who would like to see something like this (it's significant) it would be well worth the modest effort to do and would not have any impact at all on players like yourself who are content with the current overland. It's a win/win.

Zephard

Contaminate wrote: »

I sure do hope you didn’t attend a school that passed literally everyone so long as they showed up for the test and wrote their name. That’s how education goes down the drain, and that is actually how ESO treats it’s players. There’s currently no incentive at all to learn. I never said people get carried through harder content, I said solo content has such a low risk of failure even while ignoring the basics of the basics of combat, when it should rightfully keep victory away from them.

Nope, I didn't go to a school that literally passed everyone who showed up. I didn't go to a school that my parents paid for directly (you know did pay, its taxes). And I watched a lot of people fail a grade or two, due to not "wanting" to learn. But what I have done is taught. And you can not force people to learn. They have to want to learn, or they will not learn. You can't force it. Why does not everyone know after being forced to go through the tutorial how to dodge, block, interrupt, heavy attack. It was all taught in the tutorial, was it not?

If I read a book that built up the enemy’s armies archmage as a terrifying force wielding elemental magic and ordering scores of flame spirits to do his bidding, I would not be alone in my disappoint when the hero simply walks up, gets hit by every spell without any real attempt to dodge, ignores all of his loyal spirits while they channels attacks at him, only clumsily swings his sword at the mage, and proceeds to win in the span of 10s.

That or he arrives, uses one thrown dagger, and the archmage dies instantaneously.

Funny you should bring up that. I have both read books, and watched movies that this bolded sentence describes it. I actual thought that they were great.

That’s ESO’s storytelling in a nutshell. It’s not immersive and tbh it just plain sucks to try getting into any of that narrative because it falls so flat on its face it’s impossible to be enjoyed if you have more than a lick of experience in anything beyond overland.

That bolded part just shows how completely out of touch you are as to WHY people want overland to provide more challenge than none at all. People want to enjoy and immerse themselves in questing when that’s the majority of content, and right now they can’t because every enemy is a joke.

No, I am not out of touch with WHY people don't want to strip down to a lvl 10 to do the quest.
What I am not out of touch with is people wanting things to be harder, and to punish players for not learning what these folks seem to think is essential for fun. Nor am I in agreement with your assessment of ESO's storytelling. I do not think it fails. I have not seen it disappoint that the bad guy is as bad as everyone has describe, because if he was as bad as everyone has described, then my character no matter how good, should not have been able to defeat him. Just like in truth most books, really should end with the big evil actual winning. But then again it's all about feeling and opinions.

Overland, is where farming and fishing and scenic walks take place.
Story quest is where stories take place in this MMO, normally where everyone can participate.

So again, what reason for it to change? It's a whole lot easier for a competent player to make the game harder, than a player who just wants pretty pictures with their story to get gud.

vet dungeons, vet dlc dungeons, Trials (of all most all I have seen) are not where I have had the pleasure of "players enjoying players enjoying the story and sight seeing in all it's glory".


Oh a new idea. Can we get dungeons and Trials to have a walk through feature, so we could walk through them without having to do all the fighting. There are some amazing scenes that almost never get screen time cause we rushing through. But are impossible to see without others help.

Contaminate

Zephard wrote: »

So again, what reason for it to change? It's a whole lot easier for a competent player to make the game harder, than a player who just wants pretty pictures with their story to get gud.

The real reason overland is a cake walk that requires no significant effort is because that easiness sells. It keeps the ultra-casual audience content when nothing poses a true threat to them, and it means they don’t have to give a real crap about what the balance team does to the group content crowd.

“Those people who are just here to hunt dragons don’t care about balance” they said on stream, and there was outcry because that was such a clear jab at the unskilled playerbase, but in the end, the causal audience really is just after an easy victory. If it’s so easy any build (or lack of one) works, then why would they ever care about balance changes.

Mr_Walker

I spent an hour doing surveys and treasure chest hunting in Nth Elsweyr yesterday. 3 dragons up, not one of them got attacked. There you go, all you forum champions. Go solo one of them. Make sure to put it on youtube for us all.

Contaminate

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I spent an hour doing surveys and treasure chest hunting in Nth Elsweyr yesterday. 3 dragons up, not one of them got attacked. There you go, all you forum champions. Go solo one of them. Make sure to put it on youtube for us all.

Imagine reading “Make quest bosses more dangerous than trash mobs” and thinking it’s clever to suggest people go solo content with specific designs to prevent soloing.

Mr_Walker

Contaminate wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I spent an hour doing surveys and treasure chest hunting in Nth Elsweyr yesterday. 3 dragons up, not one of them got attacked. There you go, all you forum champions. Go solo one of them. Make sure to put it on youtube for us all.

Imagine reading “Make quest bosses more dangerous than trash mobs” and thinking it’s clever to suggest people go solo content with specific designs to prevent soloing.

Imagine spending 100 posts whinging when all you have to do is craft yourself low level armor/weps.

The point remains... challenging content exists, but none of you really want to do it, you just want to big note yourself on the forums. Thanksfully, zos are ignoring these "suggestions".

Sylvermynx

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

What boss is that?

The one all the "give me harder overland Content" guys want to get nerfed because it killed them. (World boss in Southern Elsweyr)

Ah! Makes sense.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I spent an hour doing surveys and treasure chest hunting in Nth Elsweyr yesterday. 3 dragons up, not one of them got attacked. There you go, all you forum champions. Go solo one of them. Make sure to put it on youtube for us all.

Imagine reading “Make quest bosses more dangerous than trash mobs” and thinking it’s clever to suggest people go solo content with specific designs to prevent soloing.

Imagine spending 100 posts whinging when all you have to do is craft yourself low level armor/weps.

The point remains... challenging content exists, but none of you really want to do it, you just want to big note yourself on the forums. Thanksfully, zos are ignoring these "suggestions".

I repeat, I like you. You make sense, which most of these people don't.

Contaminate

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I spent an hour doing surveys and treasure chest hunting in Nth Elsweyr yesterday. 3 dragons up, not one of them got attacked. There you go, all you forum champions. Go solo one of them. Make sure to put it on youtube for us all.

Imagine reading “Make quest bosses more dangerous than trash mobs” and thinking it’s clever to suggest people go solo content with specific designs to prevent soloing.

Imagine spending 100 posts whinging when all you have to do is craft yourself low level armor/weps.

The point remains... challenging content exists, but none of you really want to do it, you just want to big note yourself on the forums. Thanksfully, zos are ignoring these "suggestions".

Even lvl10 white gear doesn’t make it challenging, which is honestly sad.

But fine, I guess people don’t want immersive gameplay. They sure as don’t want anyone with moderate skill to be able to enjoy questing since they maintain every big enemy should be as scary as a mudcrab once you have a half-decent grasp of the game.