overland is to easy

haelene

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The last thing I want is the overland content to be more of a grind when I am grinding alternate characters. I'm sure others have said this, but you have the ability to make it harder all by yourself. Remove all CP. Wear all white non-set armor and weapons.

A naked toon with no skills, no weapons, no armor, and no cp applied, is under no threat from an “Elite” mob.

You can see the screenshots right here. This is terrible game design.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

so its fine for a level 10 to be farming mobs in craglorn?
it has no feel of progression if anyone can go anywhere

Yep, it's absolutely fine. Also, I want a video. Better not be any cp or set bonuses either, because most real level 10's don't have that.

I don't have a video, but I had one nice screenshot from one of such discussions, where elite mob was unable to kill my CP810 without CP (so no low level bonuses), without gear and without abilities slotted. Enjoy: 9k HP, 0 resistances, 500 dps. Giant, creature that will one-shot level 10 character in Skyrim on default difficulty, couldn't do anything to completely naked un-buffed toon in ESO. Giant dps was 150 against zero resistances, zero CP. (8744 is minimal health possible, if I had CP allocated that number will be higher).

And you can also see from those screenshots that it took them 4 minutes to fight one single mob. Overland is absolutely brimming with mobs. Imagine how absolutely tedious questing would be on a toon that takes 4 minutes per mob.

Also - elite means nothing except that they can't be crowd controlled. It says nothing about the difficulty of the mob - unless of course you were attempting to conflate this one giant with a world boss (which belong to a group called elite spawns). But of course you weren't. That would be, well, dishonest.

There is literally a combat hint that pops up the first time you encounter an Elite enemy that tells you they are (supposedly) more dangerous than a typical mob.

Regardless, a player who uses no armor, no skills, has no resists, who’s only tactical action is light attacking and moving out of AoE, should not be able to kill something the game itself has deemed a “threatening” enemy.

Why not?

Because it should take more than 1% of someone’s attention to succeed in a video game, at all points.

Did you know it’s quite literally not possible to die in one of the northern elsweyr quests? Well, presumably if you were able to dodge the healing the npc throws directly under your feet while managing to stand in the enemy AoE at the same time, and never using light attacks, and not avoiding any damage, just the healing. Maybe after fifteen minutes you could die if you successfully avoided all the healing, but I got bored after two full minutes of attempting to dodge the healing and only managing to watch my health drop to 85% before the regen or first unavoidable tick of healing brought me back to full again.

After that I took my level five, no cp argonian and light attacked the “boss” to death in 5 hits.

No fight, none at all, should let you afk permanently with no punishment like that.

See that's the fundamental difference between us. I don't assume 1% of my attention is the same as someone elses. This is an MMO. It is not a single player experience - which means that there are an extreme amount of varying skill levels and everyone should be able to make it through the story. Every single person. Even people with disabilities, even people who suck. I don't believe in a barrier to entry for MMO's (for the story. End game is entirely different).

The problem here is that you see challenge as the only value in gaming - when that's simply not true for many people. There are so many reasons people game outside of that. For the story is a huge part of it (hence why we see story mode in a lot of single player games now). Doing the combat is part of the immersion or maybe even a role play thing for some people. It's not all about challenge. It's not about the fear of death.

I feel like a lot of the arguments here rely on the fact that there can only be one perspective - that combat is king and the only reason to explore a game, when that is simply not true - in fact, difficult combat is a huge barrier to a lot of people that makes the game less enjoyable.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for enjoying more of a challenge - hell, i do too sometimes - I'm saying you're wrong for assuming everyone else should think the same way.

And, again, I'll say it - you can have your vet overland as long as you get no extra rewards, it's optional, and it - in no way - affects the performance or experience for everybody else.

So you’re perfectly fine not requiring anything from a player at all for 90% of the game? That’s not a game, that’s a graphic novel

Edit: I’m not even asking for a challenge. I’m asking for more than zero required effort

Again, for many players, that giant would have been more than zero effort. For you and I there's little to no requirement. That's not true of everybody - hell it's not true for a lot of people.

The problem I have with your way of thinking is you're making yourself and your level of skill the standard. It's not.

And hell yeah, I'm okay with people playing only for the story. 100%. Call it what you want - graphic novel, interactive story. IDGAF. This is a narrative driven MMO after all. As long as they aren't expecting end game (so dungeons, trials, even pvp) to cater to them, they can have all the narrative driven goodness they want because they paid for it just like I did.

The Giant was light attacked to death by a character with no CP, no armor, and no weapons. That is literally zero effort. That is ignoring EVERYTHING the game gives you, and the enemy does 500dps.

CP is given to you later so is moot, and I've met people nearing lvl 50 who don't know about set bonuses so they wear only what's given to them by quests or that they pick up (effectively reducing the usefulness of the armor to next to nothing). They often don't know about food. They don't know not to spread out their attributes, or how to morph things, or really any of that. Often times they don't even know how to block or dodge roll to avoid damage. Hell I've seen vet's that don't do those things. The only thing I'll give you is that they are at least wearing something (usually).

Look it's pretty obvious we're not going to agree here. This isn't going anywhere, and frankly, I'm bored repeating myself, so let's just agree to disagree.

Nanfoodle

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

i like hard content.

its why i like progging trials. if its too easy it feels like grinding. and overland...

why can a lvl 10 easily do overland in craglorn?
why is a mighty deaedroth helpless against a player with broken gear and no weapon?

ok the alliance part of one tamriel was good. but the overland is so easy now its just...

i know this is a very old point... but can we make the regons scale to player level? a minimum of lets say 50 for craglorn, and then scales with the player from that point.

also bonus xp for those in that level margin? this would make questing alot more efficient to level with.

because right now, its just boring.

Don't agree and no thanks. I would like to see the content
scale better for higher level players, not lower level players. When your CP1320 and top gear. You have no idea how much drives this game that you can jump in and play anywhere. Your not stuck killing low end trash.

I started in ESO 5 months ago and loved that I didn't have to play in empty zones with a handful of free players. I got to slay dragons. I will say this. I died sometimes 5-10 times killing a dragon at level 35. Now I'm CP397 and I die maybe once in every 5 dragons. Trust me, low level chars feel the gap.

As I said, I would like to see CP lvl and gear to cause some scaling to make the game harder. I would love to see an end to seeing someone pulling 30 mobs and not see them blink. Low level players are fine where they are.

Bryath

haelene wrote: »

Because that's what overland is for. People who don't have the access you do. It's. Not. For. Experienced. Players.

That's a damn shame, and a massive design flaw, since like 95% of the games quests are at that difficulty. Enjoy the game for a couple weeks, while your first toon is <lvl 30 or so, because the vast majority of the content will be trivial after that.

Contaminate

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The last thing I want is the overland content to be more of a grind when I am grinding alternate characters. I'm sure others have said this, but you have the ability to make it harder all by yourself. Remove all CP. Wear all white non-set armor and weapons.

A naked toon with no skills, no weapons, no armor, and no cp applied, is under no threat from an “Elite” mob.

You can see the screenshots right here. This is terrible game design.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

so its fine for a level 10 to be farming mobs in craglorn?
it has no feel of progression if anyone can go anywhere

Yep, it's absolutely fine. Also, I want a video. Better not be any cp or set bonuses either, because most real level 10's don't have that.

I don't have a video, but I had one nice screenshot from one of such discussions, where elite mob was unable to kill my CP810 without CP (so no low level bonuses), without gear and without abilities slotted. Enjoy: 9k HP, 0 resistances, 500 dps. Giant, creature that will one-shot level 10 character in Skyrim on default difficulty, couldn't do anything to completely naked un-buffed toon in ESO. Giant dps was 150 against zero resistances, zero CP. (8744 is minimal health possible, if I had CP allocated that number will be higher).

And you can also see from those screenshots that it took them 4 minutes to fight one single mob. Overland is absolutely brimming with mobs. Imagine how absolutely tedious questing would be on a toon that takes 4 minutes per mob.

Also - elite means nothing except that they can't be crowd controlled. It says nothing about the difficulty of the mob - unless of course you were attempting to conflate this one giant with a world boss (which belong to a group called elite spawns). But of course you weren't. That would be, well, dishonest.

There is literally a combat hint that pops up the first time you encounter an Elite enemy that tells you they are (supposedly) more dangerous than a typical mob.

Regardless, a player who uses no armor, no skills, has no resists, who’s only tactical action is light attacking and moving out of AoE, should not be able to kill something the game itself has deemed a “threatening” enemy.

Why not?

Because it should take more than 1% of someone’s attention to succeed in a video game, at all points.

Did you know it’s quite literally not possible to die in one of the northern elsweyr quests? Well, presumably if you were able to dodge the healing the npc throws directly under your feet while managing to stand in the enemy AoE at the same time, and never using light attacks, and not avoiding any damage, just the healing. Maybe after fifteen minutes you could die if you successfully avoided all the healing, but I got bored after two full minutes of attempting to dodge the healing and only managing to watch my health drop to 85% before the regen or first unavoidable tick of healing brought me back to full again.

After that I took my level five, no cp argonian and light attacked the “boss” to death in 5 hits.

No fight, none at all, should let you afk permanently with no punishment like that.

See that's the fundamental difference between us. I don't assume 1% of my attention is the same as someone elses. This is an MMO. It is not a single player experience - which means that there are an extreme amount of varying skill levels and everyone should be able to make it through the story. Every single person. Even people with disabilities, even people who suck. I don't believe in a barrier to entry for MMO's (for the story. End game is entirely different).

The problem here is that you see challenge as the only value in gaming - when that's simply not true for many people. There are so many reasons people game outside of that. For the story is a huge part of it (hence why we see story mode in a lot of single player games now). Doing the combat is part of the immersion or maybe even a role play thing for some people. It's not all about challenge. It's not about the fear of death.

I feel like a lot of the arguments here rely on the fact that there can only be one perspective - that combat is king and the only reason to explore a game, when that is simply not true - in fact, difficult combat is a huge barrier to a lot of people that makes the game less enjoyable.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for enjoying more of a challenge - hell, i do too sometimes - I'm saying you're wrong for assuming everyone else should think the same way.

And, again, I'll say it - you can have your vet overland as long as you get no extra rewards, it's optional, and it - in no way - affects the performance or experience for everybody else.

So you’re perfectly fine not requiring anything from a player at all for 90% of the game? That’s not a game, that’s a graphic novel

Edit: I’m not even asking for a challenge. I’m asking for more than zero required effort

Again, for many players, that giant would have been more than zero effort. For you and I there's little to no requirement. That's not true of everybody - hell it's not true for a lot of people.

The problem I have with your way of thinking is you're making yourself and your level of skill the standard. It's not.

And hell yeah, I'm okay with people playing only for the story. 100%. Call it what you want - graphic novel, interactive story. IDGAF. This is a narrative driven MMO after all. As long as they aren't expecting end game (so dungeons, trials, even pvp) to cater to them, they can have all the narrative driven goodness they want because they paid for it just like I did.

The Giant was light attacked to death by a character with no CP, no armor, and no weapons. That is literally zero effort. That is ignoring EVERYTHING the game gives you, and the enemy does 500dps.

CP is given to you later so is moot, and I've met people nearing lvl 50 who don't know about set bonuses so they wear only what's given to them by quests or that they pick up (effectively reducing the usefulness of the armor to next to nothing). They often don't know about food. They don't know not to spread out their attributes, or how to morph things, or really any of that. Often times they don't even know how to block or dodge roll to avoid damage. Hell I've seen vet's that don't do those things. The only thing I'll give you is that they are at least wearing something (usually).

Look it's pretty obvious we're not going to agree here. This isn't going anywhere, and frankly, I'm bored repeating myself, so let's just agree to disagree.

“Vets” don’t know how to do the basics because the game up until the point of group content requires. No. Thought. That’s why there’s such massive discrepancies. There’s nothing in the game’s overland questing that requires skill be built up. There’s no incline in difficulty from beginner island to final zone.

The mindless overland is the MAJORITY of the reason people jump into dungeons without a single solitary clue what they’re doing. The game shows them all these neat things like armor and sets and foods and potions with bonuses, but they have no incentive to use any of it because the overland is so non-threatening.

They should dodge out of AoEs, but why would they when they only tickle (in overland)?

They should block heavy attacks, but why would they when mobs barely do any damage while they’re staggered (in overland)?

They should have a few DoTs on their bar to supplement whatever other abilities they want to use most often, but why would they when light attacks will suffice for the vast majority (in overland)?

The overland teaches players that basic mechanics are optional, and won’t correct them until their first dungeon wipes them across the floor. That’s not an opinion, it’s bad design of the most basic sort.

Vhozek

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

And there it is. The inevitable example of the "if I don't share your experience, your experiences aren't valid" mentality. Every one of these threads eventually draws such condescension sooner or later.

Cue the "It's not possible to get less than 35K dps" crowd any minute.

Dude, I'm a super casual. Who the hell is struggling with the current overland? I swear. WHAT?!

youtube.com/watch?v=PqPq2FBGkoo

mb10

The people defending overland content are real weirdos. How on Earth can you even defend its pathetic level of dfficulty and the pathetic number of abilities NPCs have?

luizpaulom17

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

No its not suppose to be easy, it is just not suppose to be end game content... The fact that is too easy is why a lot of people end up not doing quests, cuz its just too damn easy... The fact they make overland so new players can do content from the new Exp areas right from the start end up killing those areas for vet players, who we burn every single mob within 2, 3 seconds... (snip)... World bosses are trash, quests are only about story... (snip)

(edited for bashing and non-constructive commentary)

Vhozek

You stop being a new player at 1 hour.

ZeroXFF

redspecter23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

This is the inevitable reply and in my opinion wrong.

First off, its and opinion. It is nowhere written that overland is only for the causal player base.

Why must all of the overland content be only suitable for the casual player base?

Its a counter intuitive and flawed argument. Why continuously develop content that is only suitable for new causal players, when there is already plenty to keep them busy. What happens when they become experienced? If Zos had sense they would provide overland for vet players too as not everyone is able to get into groups for vet dungeons or likes pvp. And you as part of the player community would recognise that some of your fellows are not being catered for and would concede that this is a shortfall in the game.

Why was it challenging for a number of years before One Tamriel?

Also you have agreed with the OP. You are saying that overland is too easy and does not cater for us. Therefore unlike all other content which has normal mode, hard and vet modes overland does not . Therefore this content is not catering for customers who are paying for it.

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with players who want difficult overland, asking for it.

You're right about pretty much everything. Yes, I agree overland content is too easy, at least from my own personal point of view. I actually like being able to obliterate some things in game. However, it is absolutely not too easy for everyone. The idea posted above about having multiple instances with differing difficulty is a reasonable compromise at least in theory. If the difficulty is raised, but the rewards are not, I would think it would turn into a ghost town very quickly. If the rewards are also raised, you would just see those same players that can't handle standard overland migrating to the harder version because of "shinies". You see this issue in veteran dungeons constantly. Players with no business being there still going in and losing and dragging the group down because they want a reward they aren't capable of achieving.

If ZOS can find a way to have a vet toggle on overland and avoid the issues I've mentioned, I'm not against the idea. I just don't see how it would work out well overall.

The difference between vet dungeons and overland is that in overland there would be nobody there to carry them through, unless that somebody signed up for it. And if those people who are struggling force themselves to play vet, they will become much more competent players when they finish their questing and start going into dungeons.

What you're describing is not a problem at all.

jcm2606

Overland being too easy, alone, isn't what annoys me. What annoys me is overland being too easy, while also making up the vast majority of PvE content. Vet players simply don't have anything they can sink their time into that will last.

The vast majority of PvE content should not be solely for casual players. Vet players shouldn't have to undo all of their progression just to enjoy the other 2/3's of the game. Anyone who thinks that is fine is absolutely batshit crazy. In no other game I have played, do you have to undo all of your progression, to enjoy the other 2/3's of the game. Yet here in ESO, not only do you have to, but if you bring up any alternative, you have a mob waiting, clubs in hand, to beat you to death. It's crazy.

I don't do questing, because I don't find it fun. I don't find it fun, when it just isn't engaging. Who gives a damn if it's the most captivating, well written story in MMORPG history, when the actual gameplay puts you to sleep.

In my other MMO, GW2, overland still uses leveled zones to give a clear sense of progression, while also offering level downscaling so you don't out-level zones. Mobs actually stand a chance against you, and the mechanics actually require you to pay attention, because they'll punish you if you don't.

The result? I enjoy questing in GW2 so much more, because I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing. Not only is the gameplay much more engaging, but I find quests actually have more weight behind them. I don't just blindly believe that x can and will bring on the apocalypse if they're let go, I actually feel it, I actually believe it. By having that fight against x be an actual challenge, it makes quests so much more believable, so much more immersive.

All the while, I'm still doing all that in full raiding gear. I haven't had to undo all of my progression, just to enjoy where the real meat of the game is at. (Let's not kid ourselves, ESO is a questing experience, first and foremost, as far as ZoS is concerned.)

Flocking to "make overland harder" threads, whining about how "hard" it actually is, and pushing vets towards group content, just doesn't cut it. Nobody wants to run the same handful of dungeons, trials, arenas, when there's no real value behind them, no real reason to. We've already ran them ad nauseum, we've already gotten all the gear we'd ever need from them, we've already gotten all the achievements from them. To some, they don't even have access to the DLC content, which is where the true challenge in group content lies.

How you feel when vets tell you to "just stick in the leveling zones if it's too hard for you", is how we vets feel when you tell us to "just stick to group content". We've already done it to death. Now is the time to open up the other 2/3's of the game for us.

jcm2606

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

No its not suppose to be easy, it is just not suppose to be end game content... The fact that is too easy is why a lot of people end up not doing quests, cuz its just too damn easy... The fact they make overland so new players can do content from the new Exp areas right from the start end up killing those areas for vet players, who we burn every single mob within 2, 3 seconds... (sniP).. World bosses are trash, quests are only about story... (snip)

Finally, someone who actually gets it. My 2 main MMO's, ESO and GW2, do overland and questing in vastly different ways.

In one, overland (which makes up the vast majority of the game), is completely dedicated to casuals of the casuals.

In the other, overland has a very specific progression to it, with early game zones being for casuals, late game zones being for established players, and DLC zones being for vets (with one of the expansions being completely dedicated to groups, similar to Craglorn, though it's more packed, because the risk actually has a reward).

I absolutely hate questing in ESO, because it puts me to sleep, while I've spent most of my time on GW2 in overland, questing and running events.

Just as too hard of an overland pushes players away, too easy of an overland does, too. The difference is what kind of players it pushed away. Too hard of an overland pushes casuals away, who have a lot of other content to do in ESO, while too easy of an overland pushes vets away, who simply don't have much to do as far as end game PvE is concerned.

People keep saying "overland should be for everybody", but that goes both ways. Why should overland be so easy, that vets are forced to undo all of their progression, just to enjoy it?

(edited for inappropriate commentary)

ZeroXFF

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Its easy because those players are not here for challenging combat but the story, the rest of the game is catered towards players that want more challenging experiences, Group Delves/Group Dungeons/Maelstrom Arena/Group Arena's/Trials/Even PVP.

And even in this content, when it's hard, people naturally gravitate to finding ways to make it EASY. Tactics, positioning, boss placement, builds -- anything to get it done faster better safer.

No, people don't really want "hard". They want to OVERCOME. Any requests for "hard" is really saying "make it harder, but not so hard that I can't do it". As soon as they FAIL, they complain that it's broken and cry for a nerf -- just look at the Fire Monk in Southern Elsweyr.

This is why people who ask for harder XYZ don't just immediately go and test themselves in content where they'd have a good chance of failing. They just pretend it doesn't exist.

Figuring out tactics to overcome a challenge is the fun part. Of course the difficulty shouldn't be so high that it's impossible to do it, but it shouldn't be so low that you never have to think about what you're doing, especially when it comes to bosses that are built-up in the story as these super powerful villains of godly strength.

With that said, I think that the Dragonhold DLC was a step in the right direction. There were actually some quest bosses with 500k HP who dealt enough damage to not be a joke for most people who aren't using an optimized build. And I'm not talking about the dragons where 90% of their HP was taken off by some gimmicky mechanic that made me feel like my presence was pointless.

ThePhantomThorn

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The last thing I want is the overland content to be more of a grind when I am grinding alternate characters. I'm sure others have said this, but you have the ability to make it harder all by yourself. Remove all CP. Wear all white non-set armor and weapons.

A naked toon with no skills, no weapons, no armor, and no cp applied, is under no threat from an “Elite” mob.

You can see the screenshots right here. This is terrible game design.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

so its fine for a level 10 to be farming mobs in craglorn?
it has no feel of progression if anyone can go anywhere

Yep, it's absolutely fine. Also, I want a video. Better not be any cp or set bonuses either, because most real level 10's don't have that.

I don't have a video, but I had one nice screenshot from one of such discussions, where elite mob was unable to kill my CP810 without CP (so no low level bonuses), without gear and without abilities slotted. Enjoy: 9k HP, 0 resistances, 500 dps. Giant, creature that will one-shot level 10 character in Skyrim on default difficulty, couldn't do anything to completely naked un-buffed toon in ESO. Giant dps was 150 against zero resistances, zero CP. (8744 is minimal health possible, if I had CP allocated that number will be higher).

And you can also see from those screenshots that it took them 4 minutes to fight one single mob. Overland is absolutely brimming with mobs. Imagine how absolutely tedious questing would be on a toon that takes 4 minutes per mob.

Also - elite means nothing except that they can't be crowd controlled. It says nothing about the difficulty of the mob - unless of course you were attempting to conflate this one giant with a world boss (which belong to a group called elite spawns). But of course you weren't. That would be, well, dishonest.

There is literally a combat hint that pops up the first time you encounter an Elite enemy that tells you they are (supposedly) more dangerous than a typical mob.

Regardless, a player who uses no armor, no skills, has no resists, who’s only tactical action is light attacking and moving out of AoE, should not be able to kill something the game itself has deemed a “threatening” enemy.

Why not?

Because it should take more than 1% of someone’s attention to succeed in a video game, at all points.

Did you know it’s quite literally not possible to die in one of the northern elsweyr quests? Well, presumably if you were able to dodge the healing the npc throws directly under your feet while managing to stand in the enemy AoE at the same time, and never using light attacks, and not avoiding any damage, just the healing. Maybe after fifteen minutes you could die if you successfully avoided all the healing, but I got bored after two full minutes of attempting to dodge the healing and only managing to watch my health drop to 85% before the regen or first unavoidable tick of healing brought me back to full again.

After that I took my level five, no cp argonian and light attacked the “boss” to death in 5 hits.

No fight, none at all, should let you afk permanently with no punishment like that.

See that's the fundamental difference between us. I don't assume 1% of my attention is the same as someone elses. This is an MMO. It is not a single player experience - which means that there are an extreme amount of varying skill levels and everyone should be able to make it through the story. Every single person. Even people with disabilities, even people who suck. I don't believe in a barrier to entry for MMO's (for the story. End game is entirely different).

The problem here is that you see challenge as the only value in gaming - when that's simply not true for many people. There are so many reasons people game outside of that. For the story is a huge part of it (hence why we see story mode in a lot of single player games now). Doing the combat is part of the immersion or maybe even a role play thing for some people. It's not all about challenge. It's not about the fear of death.

I feel like a lot of the arguments here rely on the fact that there can only be one perspective - that combat is king and the only reason to explore a game, when that is simply not true - in fact, difficult combat is a huge barrier to a lot of people that makes the game less enjoyable.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for enjoying more of a challenge - hell, i do too sometimes - I'm saying you're wrong for assuming everyone else should think the same way.

And, again, I'll say it - you can have your vet overland as long as you get no extra rewards, it's optional, and it - in no way - affects the performance or experience for everybody else.

So you’re perfectly fine not requiring anything from a player at all for 90% of the game? That’s not a game, that’s a graphic novel

Edit: I’m not even asking for a challenge. I’m asking for more than zero required effort

Again, for many players, that giant would have been more than zero effort. For you and I there's little to no requirement. That's not true of everybody - hell it's not true for a lot of people.

The problem I have with your way of thinking is you're making yourself and your level of skill the standard. It's not.

And hell yeah, I'm okay with people playing only for the story. 100%. Call it what you want - graphic novel, interactive story. IDGAF. This is a narrative driven MMO after all. As long as they aren't expecting end game (so dungeons, trials, even pvp) to cater to them, they can have all the narrative driven goodness they want because they paid for it just like I did.

The Giant was light attacked to death by a character with no CP, no armor, and no weapons. That is literally zero effort. That is ignoring EVERYTHING the game gives you, and the enemy does 500dps.

CP is given to you later so is moot, and I've met people nearing lvl 50 who don't know about set bonuses so they wear only what's given to them by quests or that they pick up (effectively reducing the usefulness of the armor to next to nothing). They often don't know about food. They don't know not to spread out their attributes, or how to morph things, or really any of that. Often times they don't even know how to block or dodge roll to avoid damage. Hell I've seen vet's that don't do those things. The only thing I'll give you is that they are at least wearing something (usually).

Look it's pretty obvious we're not going to agree here. This isn't going anywhere, and frankly, I'm bored repeating myself, so let's just agree to disagree.

“Vets” don’t know how to do the basics because the game up until the point of group content requires. No. Thought. That’s why there’s such massive discrepancies. There’s nothing in the game’s overland questing that requires skill be built up. There’s no incline in difficulty from beginner island to final zone.

The mindless overland is the MAJORITY of the reason people jump into dungeons without a single solitary clue what they’re doing. The game shows them all these neat things like armor and sets and foods and potions with bonuses, but they have no incentive to use any of it because the overland is so non-threatening.

They should dodge out of AoEs, but why would they when they only tickle (in overland)?

They should block heavy attacks, but why would they when mobs barely do any damage while they’re staggered (in overland)?

They should have a few DoTs on their bar to supplement whatever other abilities they want to use most often, but why would they when light attacks will suffice for the vast majority (in overland)?

The overland teaches players that basic mechanics are optional, and won’t correct them until their first dungeon wipes them across the floor. That’s not an opinion, it’s bad design of the most basic sort.

Wow this blew up....

But the thing is...

If overland is for all players then why can’t vets enjoy it?

Zones like stonefalls and glenumbra should be easier. Imean... new players.

BUT

A giant from eastmarch
That in Skyrim would instant kill you in no armour...

Well that screenshot provided above sums it up.

If overland content was harder, not too hard, so that there were aoes, mechs that MUST be blocked or dodged, and mobs can deal significant damage to a player, and don’t die in a few hits. New players would develop endgame skills, vet players could enjoy overland content more, and... 90% of pve contend wouldn’t be wasted.

Hence the scaling system.

Low level zones easier. (Bleakrock stonefalls)

High level zones (craglorn coldharbour) much harder.

Dlc zones average, so all players can experience them.


Now the idea of a vet mode.....

Is....

Awesome.

Like all vet content gold, xp and gear quality would be higher, like a vet dungeon.
The us endgame players could experience questing and overland mobs in a way that would be challenging.

Now as for the ‘overland easy???? Go solo a dragon then’ comments, dragons are a group thing. World bosses should be hard, Group dungeons should require a group. Imean... GROUP dungeons. GROUP....

But atm I can just go into a group dungeon and solo it, no prob. Same with world bosses.

Dragons are a target of what world bosses should be like. For groups.

But something that the person who I quoted above mentioned, is that overland mechanics don’t teach new players how to block and dodge, or how to heal, or tank. Because it all so easy.

New players should know to block or dodge heavy attacks, interrupt casters, and avoid red.

I have seen a lot of vet players who do t even know to interrupt casters in trials, because they never needed to.

But if you think overland quests and delves are hard.... wut?
Seriously??
‘Elite’ mobs... that die In seconds... takes 5% of my hp....



Eso is a tes game, and an mmo.
Questing should be fun, and rewarding. Quest a give no xp, no gold, and take no effort but the time it takes to find jimmy’s lost teddy bear. The evil monster guarding it is not even noticeable.

BeamsForDemacia

@jcm2606
ah u cleared all trials hm and did no death? as u got all achievements
and i dont really understand the problem, eso is an MMO it IS about group play and there is actullay quite some content for groups also at a difficult level, and u can always push scores if clears are not enough
if u want hard single player quest content this is the wrong game /genre i guess
but i still i agree that overland content doesnt prepare and teach players enough mechanics that should be changed yes but it doesnt need to be hard for exp players

jcm2606

BeamsForDemacia wrote: »

@jcm2606
ah u cleared all trials hm and did no death? as u got all achievements
and i dont really understand the problem, eso is an MMO it IS about group play and there is actullay quite some content for groups also at a difficult level, and u can always push scores if clears are not enough
if u want hard single player quest content this is the wrong game /genre i guess
but i still i agree that overland content doesnt prepare and teach players enough mechanics that should be changed yes but it doesnt need to be hard for exp players

No, because I don't find enjoyment in the super hard core PvE. I'll do it if some of my guildies are doing it, but I won't chase after it. But it's not just me who thinks there's not enough end game PvE content, a large portion of the end game PvE community thinks so, too.

Why do you think the end game PvE community dried up this patch, the patch where no new content was released? If there was an abundance of content for people to run, couldn't the community just run that content? Oh wait, they already have, they're now experiencing content patch-to-patch.

And I'm not asking for hard single player quest content, I'm merely asking for overland and questing to not be so mindnumbingly boring, that I have to put a show/movie/video on in the background to keep myself awake. No other game I've played has this issue, including other MMO's. So, why does ESO have it?

One Tamriel was a step forward, but also a step away from the goal in the other axis. The concept of "go anywhere, do anything, play with anyone" is fine and all, but they went about it the wrong way. Making all overland the same difficulty has not only killed progression, but it's also butchered enjoyment for more experienced players, as they can't just up the difficulty to make it more enjoyable for experienced players, as that'd make the game so much harder for newer players.

A better alternative would be something similar to what GW2 does, where zones still retain traditional linear level progression, but players are downscaled to avoid over-leveling content. Maybe not as harsh in how quickly difficulty climbs with higher leveled content, maybe have it more gradual so players have a bit of leeway, but there needs to be some progression to overland, overland does need to be a little harder the further in you go, and there needs to be some sort of high level PvE content for vets.

As I said in another thread, everybody keeps saying that "overland is for everybody", but is it really? From where I'm sitting, overland is entirely for just casuals, not even casuals, casuals of the casuals. As if that wasn't bad enough, overland also makes up the vast majority of PvE content in ESO, and is where Zenimax's primary focus is, so the vast majority of PvE content, and the content that Zenimax is focusing on, is entirely for just casuals of the casuals. How is this acceptable, if it's supposedly "for everybody"?

Linaleah

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

so its fine for a level 10 to be farming mobs in craglorn?
it has no feel of progression if anyone can go anywhere

so the only way you can feel progression by being restricted from some zones for a time?

I don't know, I feel progression as i unlock more skills, level them, morph them, complete more zone achievements, etc my character gets stronger, their gear gets better, I get more tools to play with. advancing a quest chain is progression as well.

so yes, its perfectly fine for a lvl 10 to be farming mobs in craglorn, if that what they feel like doing, to progress their character

Linaleah

mb10 wrote: »

The people defending overland content are real weirdos. How on Earth can you even defend its pathetic level of dfficulty and the pathetic number of abilities NPCs have?

because.. its how we enjoy it? did you know that more and more single player games now come with narrative difficulty? you know a setting that is even easier that easy and designed specifically for people who are in it to enjoy the story and the world and may either not enjoy combat, or be bad at it (some people are bad at video games, and thats ok!) do you think companies add those settings becasue they have random extra resources laying around that they can't use for anything else? do you think they would do this if there was NO demand?

not everyone enjoys playing in the same way as you do.

P.S. for the record - I can solo a good chunk of normal mode dungeons. sometimes, when i cannot be bothered to pug and my SO is not around to 2 man them with, I just solo pledges on normal. i STILL enjoy overland, how do you all put it? "mind numbingly easy.." its fun to me, it is immersive that a character that in terms of story - does all that my character does - has no trouble with your average enemies. struggling against mudcrabs when I have defeated major foes - now THAT would feel unimmersive.

Dusk_Coven

Linaleah wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

The people defending overland content are real weirdos. How on Earth can you even defend its pathetic level of dfficulty and the pathetic number of abilities NPCs have?

because.. its how we enjoy it? did you know that more and more single player games now come with narrative difficulty?

SWTOR is generally careful to do this with their Story Modes, which are designed to be solo experiences (because quest choices do matter there so you MUST do it solo to preserve your ability to make those choices).
BUT in general those are INSTANCED, not overland. Those story modes are harder than overland but still balanced to be solo-able.
Their "harder" content is regular flashpoints balanced for groups and isn't meant to be solo either.

Harder OVERLAND content has wider consequences than instanced content. And to keep things under control ZOS has put that harder content in instances like dungeons and trials. People who want a choice of harder content have that choice in ESO -- go into the made-deliberately-harder INSTANCES.

ZOS already tried harder stuff in Craglorn and that's basically as dead as any other zone except the trade hub in Belkarth. All people want to do there is group up and farm XP, which would be the result of harder Overland content if it were combined with additional rewards.
Imagine a harder Alik'r Desert with more XP or loot -- you'd just get even bigger dolmen groups and half the people there would still be watching Netflix while their toon gets hit by lightning.

Jeremy

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

The people defending overland content are real weirdos. How on Earth can you even defend its pathetic level of dfficulty and the pathetic number of abilities NPCs have?

because.. its how we enjoy it? did you know that more and more single player games now come with narrative difficulty?

SWTOR is generally careful to do this with their Story Modes, which are designed to be solo experiences (because quest choices do matter there so you MUST do it solo to preserve your ability to make those choices).
BUT in general those are INSTANCED, not overland.
Their "harder" content is regular flashpoints balanced for groups and isn't meant to be solo either.
Harder OVERLAND content has wider consequences than instanced content. And to keep things under control ZOS has put that harder content in instances like dungeons and trials.

SWTOR has a tougher overland. At least it was back when I played. I would sometimes get my @$$ kicked, especially without my companion with me.

This argument that everyone who wants more challenge should just stick to doing endgame instances is not a good solution, either. Because high level or experienced players ought to be able to enjoy questing as well, which makes up a huge portion of this game. Expecting all these players to spend all their time in a couple of instances just isn't reasonable. Or particularly nice for that matter. I really don't understand why anyone should oppose adding an optional veteran version of the overland for high level or experienced players. It's a win/win situation, and shouldn't affect players who are content with the current difficulty what-so-ever.

Dusk_Coven

Jeremy wrote: »

SWTOR has a tougher overland. At least it was back when I played. I would sometimes get my @$$ kicked, especially without my companion with me.

Anyone who has played it recently knows that having your companion with you is the norm there and typically everyone just puts their comp on healing.
You are given a companion during the "tutorial" first zone and are expected to play with one and the game is balanced with having one. People regularly do all overland Heroic mission (meant for 2+ players) in all zones with just them and their companion and many can do Heroics meant for 4+ players.
By saying "without my companion" you are misrepresenting how SWTOR is played.

If you are willing to deliberately handicap yourself in SWTOR, you can do the same here and have your "harder overland".

Linaleah

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SWTOR has a tougher overland. At least it was back when I played. I would sometimes get my @$$ kicked, especially without my companion with me.

Anyone who has played it recently knows that having your companion with you is the norm there and typically everyone just puts their comp on healing.
You are given a companion during the "tutorial" first zone and are expected to play with one and the game is balanced with having one. People regularly do all overland Heroic mission (meant for 2+ players) in all zones with just them and their companion and many can do Heroics meant for 4+ players.
By saying "without my companion" you are misrepresenting how SWTOR is played.

If you are willing to deliberately handicap yourself in SWTOR, you can do the same here and have your "harder overland".

thank you, was about to type something very similar, but you already said this. SWTOR is literally balanced to be played with companion. you get one on the very first planet you start playing, very early on and they can perform any of the trinity roles (unless I'm playing a character that has no healing capabilities whatsoever, like marauder - i pretty much set them to dps and half heal/half dps myself - they used to be better at healing, but kinda felt nerfed in that role last I played which was about 2 months ago)

and yes, heroic 2's are pretty much solo daily content most people do to grind gold. some of the 4+ do require more people unless you are really REALLY good and really well geared. (Dantooine comes to mind), but just like ESO, if you have maxed out legacy, maxed out datacrons (which add to your stats), and maxed out gear? overland? is easy.

now, i'm 100% FOR making vet versions of delves and public dungeons and instanced quests in ESO. heck. I'm all for making extra vet versions of every overland zone that you can optionally switch to. however. leave. current. overland. as. IS.

r34lian

Another dumb thread

Cireous

Something I was thinking about the other day, is that I can't bring myself to even do side quests in these beloved new Chapters anymore because of how boring the game world surrounding the quests are. Strangely, I'd rather play other games instead, even though this is my game and this is where I want to be. How does it make sense in the mind of the dev's to make such a compellingly beautiful world, rich with stories and rewards, only to gut the experience at it's core with the most trifling of combat encounters during every step of every story being told. This is a video game, not a story book, isn't it about time it starts feeling like one again?

So, it's 5 years in now, are you finally ready to do something to change this? Other games have figured this stuff out and are iterating on ways to continually scale the game to where individuals are currently at in their power levels.

I definitely understand that first and foremost the games performance is what's on the agenda right now, and this makes total sense, but after the dust has settled with that, and people are appeased and things are functioning well, can you begin working on bringing the fun back to Overland? Because if you don't, you will lose so many of us to games who can and who are. Who are giving us the TOTAL experience we are looking for, not just a shell of it.

I agree with the point being made above, you have to find away to make us ALL happy.

I wish you luck.

Dusk_Coven

Cireous wrote: »

This is a video game, not a story book, isn't it about time it starts feeling like one again?

This is actually a HUGE undertaking.
Just like a book, once you've read it, you know the ending, so re-reading it and trying to capture the same feeling as the first time is really hard. (Same reason why spoilers are so dangerous to a person's experience).

SWTOR executes it fairly well with their emphasis on choices that matter and that branch into a LOT of permutations. BUT, that is a huge commitment and it multiplies the time/assets required to create the story because of the branches of possibilities.

Story is probably the most costly expense and it's little wonder that games like NWO give you token story (a narrative, really) at the start of an expansion and throw you into grind right away.
Story and intellectual property may draw people in. But ultimately it is an MMO's ability to keep you grinding (at whatever -- housing, furnishings, loot, playing the market, whatever) that makes you stay long enough for the next chapter to come out.
And grinding isn't really a story experience at all.

Jeremy

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SWTOR has a tougher overland. At least it was back when I played. I would sometimes get my @$$ kicked, especially without my companion with me.

Anyone who has played it recently knows that having your companion with you is the norm there and typically everyone just puts their comp on healing.
You are given a companion during the "tutorial" first zone and are expected to play with one and the game is balanced with having one. People regularly do all overland Heroic mission (meant for 2+ players) in all zones with just them and their companion and many can do Heroics meant for 4+ players.
By saying "without my companion" you are misrepresenting how SWTOR is played.

If you are willing to deliberately handicap yourself in SWTOR, you can do the same here and have your "harder overland".

You're taking me out of context.

I said I got my @$$ kicked sometimes, especially without my companion. I didn't say it wasn't more difficult with your companion out as well. Which it is. I just emphasized without your companion to note it's especially hard without him/her to show that the overland on that game was actually challenging enough to where having a group (your companion) is preferred. But even with your companion out - the overland in SWTOR is still more difficult than on this game. And I never said otherwise.

So I'm not "misrepresenting" anything. You're the one who is misrepresenting me, actually - by trying to make it sound as if I said you had to handicap yourself or play the game in a way that isn't normal to make the overland SWTOR more difficult than on this game, which I never said. Nor is that true.

The point was the overland in SWTOR is challenging enough to where having help is nice. Where as on this game the overland is usually so easy it's more of a nuisance than anything else.

Kesstryl

I'm sick of leetists asking for overland to be made harder. I'm almost CP 800 and yeah overland is easy by now for me, and I like it that way. I do dungeons, trials, and WB when I want a challenge. When I'm farming nodes I don't want the random nix hound or other wildlife wrecking my farming with a fight to the death. I want to quickly kill it and get back to my casual crafting resource farming. I want to focus on stories when I quest without being interrupted with wipe after wipe with the end of story boss like in the old days before one Tamriel. Back then I out leveled the stories just to kill those bosses because I couldn't kill them at level. Let me enjoy the casual side of ESO without making everything this frustrating experience of making every trash mob into mini boss level difficulty. When I really want to fight, I know where the dungeons, trials, and world bosses are. I'm so sick of the elite uber gamers crying for nerfs to make the game harder. I want to actually enjoy this game sometimes. I miss class identity and some of the good stuff we used to have that made combat fun. Now all my progression has gone backwards and lately I'm not motivated to play the hard content because of all these nerfs to my toons. You want to destroy the little fun I have left with crafting furnishings and farming the stuff I need for that with your neverending need to chase adrenaline thrills? Some of us game to relax and not have nervous break downs. Sheesh.

Jeremy

Kesstryl wrote: »

I'm sick of leetists asking for overland to be made harder. I'm almost CP 800 and yeah overland is easy by now for me, and I like it that way. I do dungeons, trials, and WB when I want a challenge. When I'm farming nodes I don't want the random nix hound or other wildlife wrecking my farming with a fight to the death. I want to quickly kill it and get back to my casual crafting resource farming. I want to focus on stories when I quest without being interrupted with wipe after wipe with the end of story boss like in the old days before one Tamriel. Back then I out leveled the stories just to kill those bosses because I couldn't kill them at level. Let me enjoy the casual side of ESO without making everything this frustrating experience of making every trash mob into mini boss level difficulty. When I really want to fight, I know where the dungeons, trials, and world bosses are. I'm so sick of the elite uber gamers crying for nerfs to make the game harder. I want to actually enjoy this game sometimes. I miss class identity and some of the good stuff we used to have that made combat fun. Now all my progression has gone backwards and lately I'm not motivated to play the hard content because of all these nerfs to my toons. You want to destroy the little fun I have left with crafting furnishings and farming the stuff I need for that with your neverending need to chase adrenaline thrills? Some of us game to relax and not have nervous break downs. Sheesh.

You're mistaken if you think it's just "leetist" asking for a more difficult overland. But that's beside the point really and doesn't even need to come into the debate.

If you like the landscape as it currently is - then no problem - it can stay that way for you. But there isn't a good reason why a veteran version of the overland shouldn't be made available for players who would like a more interesting challenge while questing. That would not affect you or your farming in any way.

jcm2606

Kesstryl wrote: »

I'm sick of leetists asking for overland to be made harder. I'm almost CP 800 and yeah overland is easy by now for me, and I like it that way. I do dungeons, trials, and WB when I want a challenge. When I'm farming nodes I don't want the random nix hound or other wildlife wrecking my farming with a fight to the death. I want to quickly kill it and get back to my casual crafting resource farming. I want to focus on stories when I quest without being interrupted with wipe after wipe with the end of story boss like in the old days before one Tamriel. Back then I out leveled the stories just to kill those bosses because I couldn't kill them at level. Let me enjoy the casual side of ESO without making everything this frustrating experience of making every trash mob into mini boss level difficulty. When I really want to fight, I know where the dungeons, trials, and world bosses are. I'm so sick of the elite uber gamers crying for nerfs to make the game harder. I want to actually enjoy this game sometimes. I miss class identity and some of the good stuff we used to have that made combat fun. Now all my progression has gone backwards and lately I'm not motivated to play the hard content because of all these nerfs to my toons. You want to destroy the little fun I have left with crafting furnishings and farming the stuff I need for that with your neverending need to chase adrenaline thrills? Some of us game to relax and not have nervous break downs. Sheesh.

Dude, a year or so ago I had to talk a guy into not quitting in Bleakrock, because he found overland too damn easy. Some of my friends who largely play the game (semi-)casually also think overland is too damn easy. It's not just "leetists" who think overland is too damn easy.

Overland is meant to be for everybody. That's literally what you people repeat as your mantra, it should be for everybody, and shouldn't be a Dark Souls Lite. So, then, if it's meant for everybody, why is it so god damn easy, making it boring for vets? I don't do questing, because it's so boring, so unengaging, so uninspiring. Clearly your version of "everybody" doesn't include vets.

DaveMoeDee

mocap wrote: »

@redspecter23

redspecter23 wrote: »

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase.

it discussed many times before - one alliance zone for beginners, two zones, three zones. But no! We have ALL ZONES including DLC and chapters for beginners. 2000+ quests according to uesp.net are for new players.

Is it fair for vet players? Or do you really think vet players deserve only "repeat this dungeon 1 billion times" content?

So you want to repeat overland trash mobs?

You might just need to find a different game.

DaveMoeDee

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.