overland is to easy

Xanathos

Just simple. If you want progress content go play korean-model mmo, then you get force to non-stop progress.

jcm2606

Xanathos wrote: »

Just simple. If you want progress content go play korean-model mmo, then you get force to non-stop progress.

It's not about progress, it's about overland and questing being enjoyable for everybody, not just casuals. I don't quest in ESO (outside of leveling), because I don't find it enjoyable to almost one shot most mobs, two shot elites, and kill full quest bosses in under 10 seconds, all the while I can literally put 1% of my total effort into survival, because the game is so damn forgiving.

idk

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

alot of people are still saying 'Well some people like it easy'

Well...

easy zones and harder zones.

craglorn = hard.

glenumbra = easy.

then everyone would be happy.

compromise.

First off, Craglorn originally had more of a challenge. Players complained and it was nerfed.

Second, new content is a selling point, draw for new players. It is not a good idea to make it not available for those new players because it is to challenging. Especially since Zos already offers challenging content for those who want it.

In other words, Zos already compromised with offering tiered difficulty.

TequilaFire

A few hard sweeper bosses added to overland would spice it up a bit and the newer players could group to fight those.

OG_Kaveman

jcm2606 wrote: »

Xanathos wrote: »

Just simple. If you want progress content go play korean-model mmo, then you get force to non-stop progress.

It's not about progress, it's about overland and questing being enjoyable for everybody, not just casuals. I don't quest in ESO (outside of leveling), because I don't find it enjoyable to almost one shot most mobs, two shot elites, and kill full quest bosses in under 10 seconds, all the while I can literally put 1% of my total effort into survival, because the game is so damn forgiving.

well, i do like doing all the things you say there. what about that?

jcm2606

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Xanathos wrote: »

Just simple. If you want progress content go play korean-model mmo, then you get force to non-stop progress.

It's not about progress, it's about overland and questing being enjoyable for everybody, not just casuals. I don't quest in ESO (outside of leveling), because I don't find it enjoyable to almost one shot most mobs, two shot elites, and kill full quest bosses in under 10 seconds, all the while I can literally put 1% of my total effort into survival, because the game is so damn forgiving.

well, i do like doing all the things you say there. what about that?

You're allowed to, and that's the whole point -- we enjoy different things in the game. Overland should be the one form of content that connects everything together, that acts as a hub that other content can branch out from. Not just sitting in a limbo where only the casual get to enjoy it.

It's why I've always suggested simply adding a difficulty option that adjusts stats such as damage done/taken, healing received, etc, similar to PvP's Battle Spirit. In conjunction with that, rework mob AI and mob types to be more varied, and punish players more severely for not following mechanics, so overland actually flows into the rest of the game (overland's "sit in a stun, wait until it ends naturally, come out with most of your health remaining", vs everything else's "sit in a stun, promptly die to a one shot or come out at very low health").

Newer players can turn the difficulty down a tad to help with mechanics a little, casuals can keep it where it is now (except they just need to pay more attention to what they're doing, as opposed to walking around on auto pilot), vets can turn the difficulty up so everything isn't a complete faceroll. Mechanics are things you actually have to pay attention to, for everybody, as it should be.

Cirantille

Khenarthi wrote: »

I don't like hard content when I am just questing to relax after a long day, so I hope the difficulty does not increase for it

This, if I am questing, it is for lore or exploration reasons.

There are veteran dungeons + there are dlc veteran dungeons and there are hard mode veteran dlc dungeons lol
Or PvP if you want to fight an intelligent being and not a dumb-mechanics npc

Ugh, why would I want to struggle while I am enjoying my chill time

I feel so relaxed after coming back from Cyrodiil and seeing friendly faces and not everything around wants to kill me

Zephard

It was posted in the first page. This request for hard content in "overland" has been repeated quite a bit.
I also always seem to see the people who are saying it is to easy, that their characters "swipe away mobs" with just one hit, that they kill bosses to fast, it seems they are all using their very nice hard content gear and cp on these overland mobs and bosses.

I guess I am a casual player, cause my tank normally can't kill mobs in one hit, and though none of them will ever get close to killing me, it takes longer to kill them. Yes I change out some of my gear to do a little more damage, but still don't get to one shot them.

My spouse, she likes that while she is out farming, nothing overland really challenges her or delays her. Yes she avoids some fights as that slows down her farming, but well she likes that if she wants, wham, them mobs are dead and she got what she wanted.

We don't do vet dlc dung HM or vet Trails normally, we don't do Trials cause it all feels to mechanic oriented. We don't seek out the hard stuff, cause normally to make it hard, you either just add resistance and HPs to the monsters, while giving them hard hitting damage, or you make it mechanics that have to be followed or die.

TL;dr
There, another post request to not do what the original request was requesting, due to not wanting more difficult "overland" content.

OG_Kaveman

It's why I've always suggested simply

What you ask is not simple. And I think you know that.

Davadin

so ZOS isn't changing the whole global scaling and difficulty stuff......... here's what crossed my mind while I'm in the shower.


If overland mob's level of difficulty is, say, 1. and world boss is lv5, and trial is lv10 or something....

what I want to see is the compression of the scale. everything compressed to the 2nd half.

so lv 1 = 6
lv 10 = 10.

so lv5 is... lv7? lv 7.5?

while player's progression (health damage CP etc.) is also reduced to the 2nd half. the gap between the weakest player and the stongest player is not too too far anymore.

so it's a bit more... realistic scaling?

the ultra-casual feels strong, but the weakest overland also feels a bit stronger.
the elitist stays strong, but if they need to hit the weakest enemy it won't feel like they're shooting wet tissues....



....more like a damp cardboard, but y'know.......

TLDR; make the low-end of the spectrum scales higher so it won't bother the casual, but let elitist keep some immershun....

Davadin

jcm2606 wrote: »

Xanathos wrote: »

Just simple. If you want progress content go play korean-model mmo, then you get force to non-stop progress.

It's not about progress, it's about overland and questing being enjoyable for everybody, not just casuals. I don't quest in ESO (outside of leveling), because I don't find it enjoyable to almost one shot most mobs, two shot elites, and kill full quest bosses in under 10 seconds, all the while I can literally put 1% of my total effort into survival, because the game is so damn forgiving.

*thicc stamDK cries in a corner*

cyclonus11

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

What does challenge have to do with it? Overland is about finishing quests as part of the story. They make it easy because there are a lot of people who suck at combat that enjoy the lore in the game.

I agree with this. Overland is for story and lore. That's why they have more challenging stuff like world bosses (note: most people cannot solo these believe it or not), public dungeons (...or these), and group dungeons and trials (...or these) that are disconnected from the main quest lines. And people can't solo them not because they're incapable of learning, but because they just don't care usually.

DaveMoeDee

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

Aurielle

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle?

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

Olauron

Mayrael wrote: »

I get it some want it be easy, others want a challange and reward.

Once again I ask. Why can't we have OPTIONAL veteran versions of overland zones for people who seek for challange? Make them difficult and accordingly more rewarding, just like with vet dungs. If you don't want to or feel not in a shape to do it, just go normal.

Every time ZOS adds additional PVP campaigns (for the MYM event) delves on Summerset become laggy as hell. So the simple answer is because current (including PC NA) servers will not survive doubling the number of shards (mirrors) of existing zones.

jcm2606 wrote: »

It's not about progress, it's about overland and questing being enjoyable for everybody, not just casuals. I don't quest in ESO (outside of leveling), because I don't find it enjoyable to almost one shot most mobs, two shot elites, and kill full quest bosses in under 10 seconds, all the while I can literally put 1% of my total effort into survival, because the game is so damn forgiving.

And now ZOS implements harder - in their opinion - bosses at the end of the Season of Dragons. Harder in a way of oneshotting bosses without any telegraphs of attacks. I am talking about the post-Dragonhold story, finishing the whole year. If you think that was fun...you think wrong.

Davadin

Aurielle wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle?

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

i hung on until around Rohan..... Nimrodel server.

I miss those trips to the Rift in Angmar and killing that 'rog. it was damn tough.

that and the Kraken octopus creature?

- Davadin; first Champion game-wide to hit rank7 and rank8 in PvP UNTIL THEY NERF-CASUAL THE DAMN RENOWN SO EVERYBODY GOT RANK7 IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.


Ooops, looks like I still kept some twisted nerf on that game......................

Olauron

TequilaFire wrote: »

A few hard sweeper bosses added to overland would spice it up a bit and the newer players could group to fight those.

You mean like current world bosses? Nobody would care like nobody cares now about Morrowind or Summerset world bosses. If quest bosses would require grouping then solo players would equally not care and that would be the last chapter / dlc bought by them.

TequilaFire

Olauron wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

A few hard sweeper bosses added to overland would spice it up a bit and the newer players could group to fight those.

You mean like current world bosses? Nobody would care like nobody cares now about Morrowind or Summerset world bosses. If quest bosses would require grouping then solo players would equally not care and that would be the last chapter / dlc bought by them.

No I mean stronger roaming bosses that move around randomly in overland zones and you might have to fight unexpectedly.
But I am also of the opinion that if you made a zone with harder content it would be a ghost town as well.

Aurielle

Davadin wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle?

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

i hung on until around Rohan..... Nimrodel server.

I miss those trips to the Rift in Angmar and killing that 'rog. it was damn tough.

that and the Kraken octopus creature?

- Davadin; first Champion game-wide to hit rank7 and rank8 in PvP UNTIL THEY NERF-CASUAL THE DAMN RENOWN SO EVERYBODY GOT RANK7 IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.


Ooops, looks like I still kept some twisted nerf on that game......................

I held out a bit longer than you did, quit shortly after we reached Minas Tirith. The game was a hollow shadow of itself by that point. The only actual challenge still left could be found in the poor, laggy ol’ P2W Moors. Everything else in the game was just faceroll easy. I miss classic, pre-WB/F2P LOTRO so much... That period between Shadows of Angmar - Mines of Moria - Mirkwood was IMO one of the greatest periods for any MMO ever released. The game had such a good mix of challenging endgame content and challenging overland content. Classes had TONS of identity, and cooperative play was a necessity. Only the best players could solo/duo all overland content.

r34lian

Kesstryl wrote: »

I'm sick of leetists asking for overland to be made harder. I'm almost CP 800 and yeah overland is easy by now for me, and I like it that way. I do dungeons, trials, and WB when I want a challenge. When I'm farming nodes I don't want the random nix hound or other wildlife wrecking my farming with a fight to the death. I want to quickly kill it and get back to my casual crafting resource farming. I want to focus on stories when I quest without being interrupted with wipe after wipe with the end of story boss like in the old days before one Tamriel. Back then I out leveled the stories just to kill those bosses because I couldn't kill them at level. Let me enjoy the casual side of ESO without making everything this frustrating experience of making every trash mob into mini boss level difficulty. When I really want to fight, I know where the dungeons, trials, and world bosses are. I'm so sick of the elite uber gamers crying for nerfs to make the game harder. I want to actually enjoy this game sometimes. I miss class identity and some of the good stuff we used to have that made combat fun. Now all my progression has gone backwards and lately I'm not motivated to play the hard content because of all these nerfs to my toons. You want to destroy the little fun I have left with crafting furnishings and farming the stuff I need for that with your neverending need to chase adrenaline thrills? Some of us game to relax and not have nervous break downs. Sheesh.

Well said
Also every one knows how many players have completed the vet dlc trials/dungeons
Their are contents for vet and obviously AI won't compete for long
want challenge ?go play pvp

Contaminate

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

El_Borracho

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Dusk_Coven

In SWTOR there's a similar discussion thread going on, and one of the arguments against harder overland or harder story content is that people who are overpowered have the option of handicapping themselves to make things harder. Whereas people who find it hard enough (new to the game, still levelling, physical disability, whatever) would NOT have the option to suddenly make it easier and get past content. So theoretically it could end up being a situation where there's front-loaded grind.
And with easier content tied to story progress, front-loading grind into story would drive off that community.

So if your first experience of ESO was the Dragonhold prologue and you couldn't get past the dragon, how long would you keep banging your head against the wall trying to do it? They were promoting it as their latest expansion and by putting a free quest starter in the Crown Store they were basically inviting brand new players to do it.

Zephard

Contaminate wrote: »

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

The first games some people play are arcade, others are visual novels. Some might find this game challenging compared to a visual novel. And if it's their first game, might feel overwhelmed with what you assume is "natural".

Someone in your quote used math as an example. Surprising Math might be the best example. Simple math, comes easily to everyone correct? Algebra can be done by everyone correct? And everyone will learn calculus cause it's easy, yes? Then you eventually step into Partial Differential Equations and think, wow, this is something to really get me excited. Why doesn't everyone do calculus in the first place so they can get into this exciting Partial DE. That is where I want to always be, or at least DE if not Partial, then oh if I am lazy, I guess Calculus.

Well lets not be insulting, as you learn more, the simpler stuff seems to simple. Why can't these others do this simple stuff.
I agree that the game does not properly prepare the mass player base how to deal with the difference between questing overland, and dungeons. And the vast difference between overland and vet trials is so vast. Nor does the game even get close to teaching you what to expect in pvp land.

Different people respond differently to different help. And different people teach differently. But if you take that Clannfer (sp?) was a true stumbling block for my wife in the main story, when trying to get Lyris Axe, for a long time, cause it jumped and she had to learn to block and roll dodge, which neither came natural to her. Block more so than roll dodge cause who could type W,A,S,D fast enough for it to cause you to roll dodge. This was the very first game she has played since the Mario Cart on the SNES.

I find that I have yet to solo the Summerset bosses, nor have I been able to do it with just me and my wife. I haven't looked up any videos to see what I am doing wrong, but those are just to hard for me to do without group assistance.

Why does the game need to demand players retain combat at all times? It's a pain for those good at it, enjoying it, to deal with those that want the game to be any harder than what they have been playing. To encourage them to get better when obviously they don't want to.

EDIT: changed came to game

Contaminate

El_Borracho wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember during the early access days before the PC release I was in a guild with this one member who was completely overwhelmed by all combat. She had guild member crafting her sets of gear all the time. She wanted the gear with the trait that made the gear get damaged less when you die because she accepted she was just always going to die. She loved the game, but couldn't really do the questing without someone helping her. Eventually she left.

TES games appeal to a lot of people who suck at combat in games.

*raises hand* The combat in this game is meant for young people, with reflexes that approach the speed of light. That's not me.... I'll be 72 next month, and while my mind is quite good thank you, my ability to do twitchy combat left me probably 25 years or so back....

The endgame combat is meant for good reflexes. The overland doesn’t require any reaction at all, much less “twitchy” ones.

Sounds like you are the expert on the experiences of all players. Keep insisting. That will make it true.

I’m an expert on my own experiences as a newbie who didn’t find any engaging content until I stumbled into Elden Hollow with an equally newbie player at level 22. Before 1T which came a bit later in my playtime, it about the proper level for the dungeon, but it was the first time I actually felt powerful because I fought enemies that were a threat. It was fun to actually overcome a challenge rather than have victory handed to me.

ESO fails at what should be basic gameplay design. If there’s no difficulty incline, and it stays at tutorial level of “difficulty” at all time in 95% of the game, and basic mechanics like blocking, dodging, and interrupting are shown to be optional systems that won’t punish you, then the game has failed to teach players anything.

ESO’s overland vs dungeons may as well be basic addition vs calculus, and ESO isn’t exactly offering the “algebra” middleground.

It seems you fail to grasp the fundamental truth that other people aren't you. Your experience is your experience. Stop assuming that everyone has the same capacities or that everyone enjoys the same things. You responding to a criticism that you are out of touch with the experience of other players by talking about yourself. SMH.

If players want a mindless experience the way it currently is laid out then what they’re after isn’t a game, it’s a novel in a 3D world. And no it’s not “just my experience” being able to observe over and over that players don’t learn jack in overland. An elite mob, described by the game as being more difficult than other mobs only does 500dps against a player character with zero resistances.

I try to explain what to block, when to dodge, how mechanics work in a normal dungeon that’s barely tickling anyone else but knocking them dead every 20s, and then those players get mad about being told how not to die.

This game is not demanding players retain anything about combat and that’s the problem.

I don't know why overland content mobs, elite or otherwise, should be the benchmark for anything. Its a completely arbitrary standard. Why not make mudcrabs or world bosses the standard?

Overland is the content for trying out gear, skills, and learning about the peculiarities of your class. Its where you can find out that a set like Resilient Yokeda doesn't work as well as Storm Knight, but you won't get wiped in 0.2 seconds learning that. Or where you can find out what 8 meters is in the game. Or how fast you can burn through your resource pool. Or find out that stamina necro's play style is nowhere the same as a stamblade.

You are correct, overland does NOT prepare you for PVP, dungeons, or trials. Because all of that content is meant to be done in a group. Normal dungeons and trials are there to prepare you for that. Under level 50 campaigns are supposed to do that for PVP. That is where you find out that Resilient Yokeda and Storm Knight will get you killed in PVP and PVE endgame. That is where you learn mechanics. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make overland the proving ground for any of these things. Moreover, I can't imagine how you would make it the training ground for these things, either.

Overland should at minimum require players block, dodge, and interrupt, and punish them with chunks of damage if they fail to do even that

Teach-Test methods are basic parts of game design. Like, “first time you ever come across it” basic. The overland absolutely should be giving players basic knowledge of the games system so they can go into group content somewhat competent.

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeing of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

Davadin

Aurielle wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle?

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

i hung on until around Rohan..... Nimrodel server.

I miss those trips to the Rift in Angmar and killing that 'rog. it was damn tough.

that and the Kraken octopus creature?

- Davadin; first Champion game-wide to hit rank7 and rank8 in PvP UNTIL THEY NERF-CASUAL THE DAMN RENOWN SO EVERYBODY GOT RANK7 IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.


Ooops, looks like I still kept some twisted nerf on that game......................

I held out a bit longer than you did, quit shortly after we reached Minas Tirith. The game was a hollow shadow of itself by that point. The only actual challenge still left could be found in the poor, laggy ol’ P2W Moors. Everything else in the game was just faceroll easy. I miss classic, pre-WB/F2P LOTRO so much... That period between Shadows of Angmar - Mines of Moria - Mirkwood was IMO one of the greatest periods for any MMO ever released. The game had such a good mix of challenging endgame content and challenging overland content. Classes had TONS of identity, and cooperative play was a necessity. Only the best players could solo/duo all overland content.

yes. would spend hours in the dangerous area just me and my buddy, going through the trenches like a pair of badasses. (tank and champ and a bucket of lembas)

I say Angmar + Moria is probably my second greatest MMO experience, second only to SWG's pre-NGE perma-death Jedi (Briar server), but still better than Elite Dangerous' open-PvP patrolling (I got a pimped out FDL with your name on my dual fixed PA...)




Hmmm............ I guess I *DO* enjoy harder content.....................

Zephard

Contaminate wrote: »

The final zones bosses that are built up over the entire zone should be meaningful to fight. They should give players a challenge and give an actual feeling of victory that was earned and not handed out on a silver platter. My endgame character could wipe the floor with enemies using a 100-0 burst move with buffs up and potions popped so it lasts literally 1 second, but bosses die just as quick when I do nothing but light attack them. That’s not enjoyable or immersive, especially when I can replace all the gear with green crafted sets and do the exact same thing.

I bold the statement that seems to have feelings in it. What is "handing something out on a silver platter", might be forcing another to eat off the ground with their fingers. Those are feelings. Not everyone actually gets that "feeling of victory" at the end. Some just get a feeling of relief they never want to do that ever again.

Glad your endgame character can wipe the floor with bosses in 1 sec while wearing green crafted gear. My main (a tank ) in non-green crafted gear still takes longer than sec to kill basic overland stuff, much less a boss.

Sorry your endgame character is ruining your immersion. Maybe if you changed your character it wouldn't ruin it for you. I have several characters and make my DPS characters so they can wipe the floor with the bosses carcass. I am happy with how fast that happens. It pleases my support team so that they don't have to keep doing their thing for longer. My tank is grateful for the competent DPS doing lots of dps.

You mention quite well that you seem to feel the game does not do enough for other players to make them ready for harder content. Luckily for those players this is not a one death / final death game. I am sure those players would not have even bought the game if it was that way. Me and my wife did not learn how to do harder content from the game alone. This game is a MMO, and as such we have learned from others how to do harder content. For vet dungeons, there a lot more than "just basics" that needs to be known, and nothing in the game teaches you those things. By your statements, I would assume those things should be taught by the overland material?

How do you make overland and quest material require basic game mechanics without increasing the difficulty. Ah, I think the answer is in the tutorial. Not let anyone "finish" the boss, until we have all pressed the block key, the roll dodge, the heavy attack, the light attack, the ability use. Or we could let it be the natural desire of the individual player seeking out harder content, push them to ask other players for help, also those individuals going to the internet for more information. Until an individual wants to learn, they will refuse to learn.

martinhpb16_ESO

Aurielle wrote: »

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

i hung on until around Rohan..... Nimrodel server.

I miss those trips to the Rift in Angmar and killing that 'rog. it was damn tough.

that and the Kraken octopus creature?

- Davadin; first Champion game-wide to hit rank7 and rank8 in PvP UNTIL THEY NERF-CASUAL THE DAMN RENOWN SO EVERYBODY GOT RANK7 IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.


Ooops, looks like I still kept some twisted nerf on that game......................

I held out a bit longer than you did, quit shortly after we reached Helms Dee. The game was a hollow shadow of itself by that point. The only actual challenge still left could be found in the poor, laggy ol’ P2W Moors. Everything else in the game was just faceroll easy. I miss classic, pre-WB/F2P LOTRO so much... That period between Shadows of Angmar - Mines of Moria - Mirkwood was IMO one of the greatest periods for any MMO ever released. The game had such a good mix of challenging endgame content and challenging overland content. Classes had TONS of identity, and cooperative play was a necessity. Only the best players could solo/duo all overland content.

I stayed with LOTRO for seven years right up to Helms Deep and then ESO came out. After years of faceroll overland and dungeons in LOTRO, ESO was an absolute blessing because there was some overland challenge. unfortunately that challenge died with one Tamriel.

Long live the Balrog, best raid ever. Shadows of Angmar, you actually felt like Frodo and Sam in Modor. Remember that achievement in Angmar where you had to visit all the fortresses! That was literally epic. I think Lotro started to decline after Moria, the expansions got thinner, the faceroll got easier and there was no raid or pvp development.

So many people on my server came over to ESO that soon after the server was closed. We had around 70 from our server in the guild at one point, all vet raiders and pvp'ers. Take them out and the care bears were never enough to sustain the server and it died.

Be warned Zos, dont take your customers for granted, sooner or later something will come along that does cater to their needs.

Greetings to any Eldar players out there, esp Freeps n Creeps (Finmartigan, Hunter, R12)

Davadin

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sounds a lot like LOTRO. I remember what LOTRO was like before Turbine sold out to Warner Bros and turned the game into a casual microtransaction-filled P2W grindfest... There was once a time when you actually needed a fellowship to complete certain low level (we’re talking lvl 10-12) bosses. I’ll always remember “LFG Jagger Jack” in Bree chat. Also, in the original SoA endgame, you needed a full group just to reach the entrance of The Rift raid in Angmar. I repeat: you needed a group JUST TO GET TO THE ENTRANCE OF A RAID. It was a tough adventure every time! The game just wasn’t the same when it went full-blown casual. I lost a lot of in-game friends to the exodus that followed, as friends were no longer necessary outside of instanced content. Way to adhere to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, Turdbine...

i hung on until around Rohan..... Nimrodel server.

I miss those trips to the Rift in Angmar and killing that 'rog. it was damn tough.

that and the Kraken octopus creature?

- Davadin; first Champion game-wide to hit rank7 and rank8 in PvP UNTIL THEY NERF-CASUAL THE DAMN RENOWN SO EVERYBODY GOT RANK7 IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.


Ooops, looks like I still kept some twisted nerf on that game......................

I held out a bit longer than you did, quit shortly after we reached Helms Dee. The game was a hollow shadow of itself by that point. The only actual challenge still left could be found in the poor, laggy ol’ P2W Moors. Everything else in the game was just faceroll easy. I miss classic, pre-WB/F2P LOTRO so much... That period between Shadows of Angmar - Mines of Moria - Mirkwood was IMO one of the greatest periods for any MMO ever released. The game had such a good mix of challenging endgame content and challenging overland content. Classes had TONS of identity, and cooperative play was a necessity. Only the best players could solo/duo all overland content.

I stayed with LOTRO for seven years right up to Helms Deep and then ESO came out. After years of faceroll overland and dungeons in LOTRO, ESO was an absolute blessing because there was some overland challenge. unfortunately that challenge died with one Tamriel.

Long live the Balrog, best raid ever. Shadows of Angmar, you actually felt like Frodo and Sam in Modor. Remember that achievement in Angmar where you had to visit all the fortresses! That was literally epic. I think Lotro started to decline after Moria, the expansions got thinner, the faceroll got easier and there was no raid or pvp development.

So many people on my server came over to ESO that soon after the server was closed. We had around 70 from our server in the guild at one point, all vet raiders and pvp'ers. Take them out and the care bears were never enough to sustain the server and it died.

Be warned Zos, dont take your customers for granted, sooner or later something will come along that does cater to their needs.

Greetings to any Eldar players out there, esp Freeps n Creeps (Finmartigan, Hunter)

i think it declined in Rohan. Moria was the peak and Mirkwood was honestly still very good. Rohan was.... well... "good". Then WB bought the whole thing?

i had 51 guild-mates and more non-guild LOTRO friends migrated to this game.

we all joined when ESO went live and most actually tried BETA. we created the ESO-wing of our guild.


who wants to guess out of the original 51 members who joined, how many left today?




anyone?





Anyone???




Yup. That's right.







One. (me)



But it's not the saddest part though. The saddest part is I don't even remember the guild's name..... (thankfully some are still on my facebook lol)

martinhpb16_ESO

Davadin wrote: »

[

i think it declined in Rohan. Moria was the peak and Mirkwood was honestly still very good. Rohan was.... well... "good". Then WB bought the whole thing?

i had 51 guild-mates and more non-guild LOTRO friends migrated to this game.

we all joined when ESO went live and most actually tried BETA. we created the ESO-wing of our guild.


who wants to guess out of the original 51 members who joined, how many left today?




anyone?





Anyone???




Yup. That's right.







One. (me)



But it's not the saddest part though. The saddest part is I don't even remember the guild's name..... (thankfully some are still on my facebook lol)

Actually exactly the same story! I am also the only one left with a few close friends on facebook.

I miss the special forces Friday night hunter group and Rokkin raids in the Moors and the banter from my guild in raids - the best times - real fellowship