We feared you'd leave addons unable to read guild history. Don't make it permanent please.

wavingblue

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics .

You are absolutely the wrong person on this thread to say someone else is doing mental gymnastics.

Jhalin

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

Mental gymnastics to say the console market developed differently than PC? Nah I don’t think so.

PC trading has functioned healthy because PC guilds can base requirements off sales rather easily. It’s more player-friendly and generates a nice reward system for those who participate when a weekly fee is waived in light of good sales numbers.

Console, in general, doesn’t use sales as a metric at all because gathering the info is tedious. That environment is much less welcoming and doesn’t distinguish between high participation sellers and those just hanging out in the guild for a week. They all have the same donation reqs even if one person sells 100k and another sold 50k. Even with addons I’d venture to say PC trade GMs work as hard or harder than console trade guild GMs do due to the completely different requirement system we’ve all come to know here.

The reward systems like sales tax returns, high-seller bonuses are not feasible on console because you lack a proper data gathering tool. On PC those reward systems are common.

Maybe you’re selectively reading, but people on PC would agree that bringing over many addon function, especially for guilds, would be welcome on consoles. You’re not competing against addons in your system, which is the point. PC players all have equal access to addons, further making that point moot. The trade system at its base is social and unique on top of all the good it does keeping gold inflation down. That doesn’t mean it’s not in dire need of an update.

ZOS_RogerJ

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. If there are any questions, please see the community rules.

DragonRacer

And so the thread receives a Z stamp, but for moderation rather than an answer.

This will go over well...

wavingblue

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

Ackwalan

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. If there are any questions, please see the community rules.

Saw the Z tag, should have known it was a pointless post.

#give mods and devs different forum tags.

DragonRacer

wavingblue wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

Careful, don't let yourself get pointlessly goaded into a temp ban or something similarly annoying. Although I admire your vocabulary, might I suggest such harmless-but-amusing-and-gets-the-point-across options as, say, "flavorless rutabagas" or "misshapen pecans"?

wavingblue

DragonRacer wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

Careful, don't let yourself get pointlessly goaded into a temp ban or something similarly annoying. Although I admire your vocabulary, might I suggest such harmless-but-amusing-and-gets-the-point-across options as, say, "flavorless rutabagas" or "misshapen pecans"?

Armless inflatable tube guy

StabbityDoom

DragonRacer wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

Careful, don't let yourself get pointlessly goaded into a temp ban or something similarly annoying. Although I admire your vocabulary, might I suggest such harmless-but-amusing-and-gets-the-point-across options as, say, "flavorless rutabagas" or "misshapen pecans"?

No, over in our guild I think we're cheering for "walnut"

Ardan147

.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

If the "intended gameplay" was that one would have to spend hours and hours of gathering and analyzing data if they wanted accurate market data then that is not a game I would wish to play. And I can't imagine that very many people would enjoy such a game.

Before computers, work that can now be done in seconds took hours of human labor, and you know what - the people who performed that labor were paid for it. The leaders of guilds don't get paid anything to run their guilds. The disabling of these addons is going to result in exponentially more work for them.

The part about addons giving players who use them an advantage over those who don't is complete bulls**t, as there is nothing stopping anyone from downloading and using the same addons. It is a completely even playing field, within each server environment. As PC and console environments do not mix, the differences between the two are a moot point entirely. Though I definitely think that console players should also have a way of aggregating the data available under guild history into some form that a human can actually read and interpret.

GarnetFire17

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

People are still missing the point.

Zos have disabled guild history not the addons.

it just means that the addons that read guild history are inoperative.

Even if the addons disappear GMs and traders will still read guild history. it will just take 50 times longer.

Hey you - dont use a calculator use real maths! Stop emailing, in fact stop typing, get a pencil and paper and hand deliver that message! Stop using a gaming keyboard - use a real keyboard!

Addons are just an automated way to read the data that is needed and deliver it to the user in a user-friendly way according to the needs of the task. Addons do not circumnavigate or manipulate the game.

Seriously if you were a trading guild GM you would know the pain we already have.

just because some people get by with no phone signal where they live doesnt mean that the rest of us should throw phones out of the window.

People please stop sidetracking the important conversation that needs to be had with ZOS about the significance of this decision for a huge number of players.

Unless I am missing something the Sales history all it does is report every single individual sale that happens in the store and only goes back so far. It's basically useless to Guild Leaders that use sales info to do things.

reoskit

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

Unless I am missing something the Sales history all it does is report every single individual sale that happens in the store and only goes back so far. It's basically useless to Guild Leaders that use sales info to do things.

Without an addon, you're right.

With an addon, we can compile the information and use it in dozens of ways. That's why we'd like addons to be able to access it again.

Kidgangster101

wavingblue wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

But this is OUR issue as an entire community though lol. OUR game is running in the stoneages. I legit feel like we are using technology cavemen came up with, so why not IMPROVE this concept you guys love so much on PC. Why not IMPROVE this entire trading system across ALL platforms without having to use add-ons? I'm not understanding why in 2019 you want a system that requires you to use another system to have a system that already exists in other games? Lol

Btw nice insults rather than having a conversation I'm glad you can just insult and act childish because I'm trying to bring up a matter that should have been fixed a long time ago. This is a public forum I'm expressing my issues

wavingblue

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

Actually yes it is because we have NO CONTROL NOR BEARING on what ZOS does with consoles. Trolling PC players for an issue that ONLY effects PC with no bearing to console whatsoever only makes console players look like gormless mouth breathers. Complain to ZOS about YOUR issues, we'll complaint about ours.

But this is OUR issue as an entire community though lol. OUR game is running in the stoneages. I legit feel like we are using technology cavemen came up with, so why not IMPROVE this concept you guys love so much on PC. Why not IMPROVE this entire trading system across ALL platforms without having to use add-ons? I'm not understanding why in 2019 you want a system that requires you to use another system to have a system that already exists in other games? Lol

No... this is not our issue, not in the slightest. You are just trying to make your trolling seem relevant and its not.. it really is not.

GarnetFire17

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

I don't know how you know that, but I can tell you that they intended a lot things when the game came out, and their intentions really weren't what people were looking for then. They have changed their attitude about things since ZOS has benefited greatly from these addons, they provide features more players want than don't want and they want the player base to grow and be happy. You think Skyrim would be so popular it was just vanilla Skyrim? We aren't talking about combat addons here anyway. We are talking about addons that are important to the economy of the game and that make being involved in the economy enjoyable. And its not going to be enjoyable to the PC gamers bc they don't want the play like they are on a console. That is why they are playing on a PC. Also even if you do take the addons away you are still going to have to have hackers and cheaters. They exist on consoles too.

GarnetFire17

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Moloch1514

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. If there are any questions, please see the community rules.

😒 Of course not an actual response from ZOS.

thermatico

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. If there are any questions, please see the community rules.

Thanks for answering our questions and providing updates. Look forward to hearing the next step!

VaranisArano

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

How? You seem to be talking about guild v guild competitions for trader spots here.

All PC guilds have access to the same addons. (And all PC guilds are suffering the same problems this week.)

PC and Console aren't using the same markets.

So, how is addon usage an advantage for a PC guild when every other PC guild has access to the same addons? If anything, I'd argue that addons make it easier for smaller guilds to do the work that is otherwise required to run a trading guild.

(Its absolutely an advantage for PC users vs Console in terms of the time and effort it takes to handle guild business, BUT that doesn't impact the market at all because PC and Consoles have completely separate markets.)

ecru

I'm a GM of a trade guild and my guild runs entirely on raffle donations and sales. That's it. There's no pressure to sell anything, no pressure to donate, no fees, nothing, and my members appreciate this. For the most part, we don't make enough to cover the cost of the trader based on sales alone. This means that if I can't pull data from the guild history for a raffle, I'll have to collect dues, which is something I simply don't have time for and don't care to do. That isn't the type of guild we are anyway. I run my guild so players can have a place to sell their items without having to worry about paying dues or being pressured to sell a specific amount each week.

Maybe someone else will want to take over the guild, maybe not. Either way if things don't go back to the way they were, 500 people are probably going to be without a guild soon.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

No. I would quit the game if addons were removed. Addons are the only thing that makes the game playable to me. Inventory management alone without addons would be too time consuming to make the game worthwhile.

Linaleah

something to point out to you anti addon crowd. ZoS tracking which addons are popular and widely used is how you get improvements to base UI on console. disabling addons is not going to make the game better. its just going to make it worse for everyone console and pc alike.

and yes, this is a time honored practice, to create a very basic framework, give players ability to improve on it and watch what happens. saves developers a great deal of money to see what is worth working on.

how do you think we got some very specific improvements to guild trader and housing UI?

StabbityDoom

ecru wrote: »

I'm a GM of a trade guild and my guild runs entirely on raffle donations and sales. That's it. There's no pressure to sell anything, no pressure to donate, no fees, nothing, and my members appreciate this. For the most part, we don't make enough to cover the cost of the trader based on sales alone. This means that if I can't pull data from the guild history for a raffle, I'll have to collect dues, which is something I simply don't have time for and don't care to do. That isn't the type of guild we are anyway. I run my guild so players can have a place to sell their items without having to worry about paying dues or being pressured to sell a specific amount each week.

Maybe someone else will want to take over the guild, maybe not. Either way if things don't go back to the way they were, 500 people are probably going to be without a guild soon.

And many of them will quit.

Treat

reoskit wrote: »

Let me ask you one thing: how do you think guilds hold their kiosks?

If there's no effort by the officer teams to run the guild, that means all guilds should be on the same playing field and no one should be able to hold a kiosk... right?

The truth of the matter is that we *do* run our guilds like businesses. We always have.

So, thanks for the sanctimonious "now you have to run a business" but that's precisely what we're begging to be allowed to go back to doing. We put in more effort than you know to make these guilds successful. It's remarkably easy for people who do not do our job to sweep all our effort under the rug. Ignorance is so conveniently low-energy.

By the way, do you know what all businesses have? They have access to their financial data. We currently do not. Instead of basking in schadenfreude, you could take the time to understand that no one can run their guild like a business right now. That is the very heart of what GMs are saying is broken.

I'm quoting this for effect. This is the entire issue. We just want our data compiled in a meaningful way. That's it.

It's not that we can't do things the way consoles do, but we are not set up to do so and *hundreds* of people rely on us every single week to secure a trader, make it painless for the member to contribute all while keeping good people coming in, keeping drama out and, as was pointed out, trading guilds are usually also social guilds, so we also maintain events. The amount of (wo)manpower this requires is more than you think. We already spend a very large portion of our game-time doing officer/GM work in trade guilds - and we do it for no other reason than a labor of love.

I don't think many of you realize how "adapting" might look in real-time. It means that the status-quo will likely change for most, if not all, major trading guilds on PC. If this means there will be less events, more required dues or other changes, well, I guess that's how it will have to be. But it doesn't have to be like that

Look, I just run auctions for one of these high end trade guilds. I compile completely different data than the GM's use, but I *do* use this data every single day. It's up to me to keep abreast of pricing changes, what's valuable, what's worthwhile and what's going to be a balance between fun items for members vs. gold intake for the guild. MM helps me do this. It helps me see trends over time. It helps me anticipate changes. I just do this on a larger scale than an individual trader.

Anyway. My 2 cents.

TheTraveler

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Doing your own price check isnt hard, just time consuming.

You go around to a couple traders, usually the capital cities or the ones near your trader, and figure out what the geberal proce for your item is. Its a lot easier now that we have an item search.

That being said, its a LOT harder to "fine tune" your sales. You pretty much have to go with a general price that more or less matches what you see in your guild and others nearby.

That's pretty much how traders operate on console.

Hold on... what you describe above, is just what people are prepared to SELL their goodies for, it tells you nothing about what people are prepared to PAY for that item. Looking at guild sales history tells you exactly what people are prepared to PAY for an item. I have no interest in the silly prices people prepare to put on their items; some are waay above what buyers are prepared to pay, and some are way below, so item -checking helps me exactly zero.

Ashtaris

Gilvoth wrote: »

i dont agree with your saying "we"
myself and many others of the eso communtiy "hate" the addons and hate they are even allowed in eso.
in single player games addons are awesome and really fun and joy, but not in an MMO they are completely an open door for cheating and its been proven that with miats addon, and many others, that the ability to cheat does exist and is even still being used in eso.

heres some proof
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360442/miat-addon

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387011/miats-zeni-can-i-have-new-skills-please/p1

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/397179/why-wont-miats-addon-die

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308971/miats-pvp-alerts-addon/p1

the list is never ending ...

add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!

You can’t be serious. This has gotta be a troll post. Sheesh.

TheTraveler

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

That is the entire point of this thread. There IS no sales history available. They turned it off. If you look there it just says: "No entries"

TheTraveler

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

And your telling me that people that make these add-ons can do zos job better than them? .

Yep, you got it...

VaranisArano

TheTraveler wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Doing your own price check isnt hard, just time consuming.

You go around to a couple traders, usually the capital cities or the ones near your trader, and figure out what the geberal proce for your item is. Its a lot easier now that we have an item search.

That being said, its a LOT harder to "fine tune" your sales. You pretty much have to go with a general price that more or less matches what you see in your guild and others nearby.

That's pretty much how traders operate on console.

Hold on... what you describe above, is just what people are prepared to SELL their goodies for, it tells you nothing about what people are prepared to PAY for that item. Looking at guild sales history tells you exactly what people are prepared to PAY for an item. I have no interest in the silly prices people prepare to put on their items; some are waay above what buyers are prepared to pay, and some are way below, so item -checking helps me exactly zero.

I'll reply, since that's my comment you are responding to.

You are correct. That's just how the game works when you don't have addons that can check the actual selling price of items. You don't get the same data or the convenience.

It usually works out okay, though obviously much less precise, if you pay attention to what items are listed for in your guild and nearby guilds. If your price is about in the same ballpark or lower, it usually sells.

Yes, its less precise. Yes, its more time-consuming. Yes, its not ideal - that would be PC and Console getting the same trading tools as a base-game function.

But no, its neither hard nor insurmountable. You can still list items for a reasonable price and still get sales. Its what you do if you have no addons or no TTC.

Its also how I started out trading in ESO. Its kinda sad and funny that those early trading skills I learned when I was too noobish to use addons are turning out to be useful again.

rumple9

The word "adapt" needs banning from these forums

TheTraveler

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?