We feared you'd leave addons unable to read guild history. Don't make it permanent please.

reoskit · June 2019

wavingblue wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Is Miat a trading add-on?

No, and I'm mystified why people keep bringing it up in these discussions.

Console trolls who got freezers full of nothing burgers but still want to troll.

Hey, I bought plant-based (aka nothing) burgers last night - they're in my freezer. Don't you dare judge me.

I think we can leave the "console" out of that. Trolls just wanna troll.

Linaleah · June 2019

Goregrinder wrote: »

thermatico wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Stormshaper wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

Come on! I hadn't been playing the game for two weeks when I learned that 1) there were (sanctioned) addons and 2) said addons came in a wide variety of uses and applications. One of the very first addons I installed was Master Merchant. You'd have to literally never read zone chat or even casually glance at it EVER to argue new players are at a disadvantage. People in game are generally very helpful to point out addons exist, how to get them and what their intended purposes are.

EDIT: And another brainy idea would be to simplify and emphasize certain portions of that ADDON EULA for new players. You remember it, all you PC users had to agreed to it at least once.

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Being in several trade guilds and not being able to see what sold in which guild, or how much you sold per guild is bad design not bad mechanics.

How did we manage it 5 years ago when the game launched?

addons were here since early acess. some of their functionality was gradualy added into the base game, but ESO was from the start design with addon creation in mind. the way Bethesda games and Elder Scrolls games tend to be.

OtarTheMad · June 2019

I don't know how to feel about the wording ZOS used, anyone else remember when they said the Mercenary Merchant for PvP would be turned off temporarily until they found a fix for the invulnerable bug? Yeah 5 years later still no merchant.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

reoskit wrote: »

By the way, do you know what all businesses have? They have access to their financial data. We currently do not. Instead of basking in schadenfreude, you could take the time to understand that no one can run their guild like a business right now. That is the very heart of what GMs are saying is broken.

... and more than this, people who run abusiness analyze their financial data with modern, computerized tools.

I was just thinking of this thread and imagining an employee like "Hey boss ! See, I've been working through this data like a real businessman ! Everything copied by hand with pen and paper, with nice clean rows and columns ! That's so much good work, I feel so proud !" :-)

StabbityDoom · June 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

By the way, do you know what all businesses have? They have access to their financial data. We currently do not. Instead of basking in schadenfreude, you could take the time to understand that no one can run their guild like a business right now. That is the very heart of what GMs are saying is broken.

... and more than this, people who run abusiness analyze their financial data with modern, computerized tools.

I was just thinking of this thread and imagining an employee like "Hey boss ! See, I've been working through this data like a real businessman ! Everything copied by hand with pen and paper, with nice clean rows and columns ! That's so much good work, I feel so proud !" :-)

This is something straight out of Dickens.

reoskit · June 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

By the way, do you know what all businesses have? They have access to their financial data. We currently do not. Instead of basking in schadenfreude, you could take the time to understand that no one can run their guild like a business right now. That is the very heart of what GMs are saying is broken.

... and more than this, people who run abusiness analyze their financial data with modern, computerized tools.

I was just thinking of this thread and imagining an employee like "Hey boss ! See, I've been working through this data like a real businessman ! Everything copied by hand with pen and paper, with nice clean rows and columns ! That's so much good work, I feel so proud !" :-)

Babysteps! Gotta get that data back before we can gesture wildly at it and say "we cannot decipher this nonsense!"

That said, brb... Gotta go see if I can't convince one of our officers to enter every single sale in a spreadsheet...

The irony that a real job is easier right now, given that we have the proper tools... it boggles the mind.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · June 2019

thermatico wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Stormshaper wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

Come on! I hadn't been playing the game for two weeks when I learned that 1) there were (sanctioned) addons and 2) said addons came in a wide variety of uses and applications. One of the very first addons I installed was Master Merchant. You'd have to literally never read zone chat or even casually glance at it EVER to argue new players are at a disadvantage. People in game are generally very helpful to point out addons exist, how to get them and what their intended purposes are.

EDIT: And another brainy idea would be to simplify and emphasize certain portions of that ADDON EULA for new players. You remember it, all you PC users had to agreed to it at least once.

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Being in several trade guilds and not being able to see what sold in which guild, or how much you sold per guild is bad design not bad mechanics.

I wonder how we can manage to do just fine on cosole

reoskit · June 2019

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I wonder how we can manage to do just fine on cosole

You do just fine on console because your entire economy, including your trade guilds, wasn't built around the tools that were just taken away.

Please, stop comparing apples and oranges.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · June 2019

RANKK7 wrote: »

The situation is absolutely AWFUL! I'm in 4 trading guilds which sell items at very different prices because location or members who buy directly and it's absolutely necessary to have sales history!

Not to mention we don't even know anymore WHAT sold in WHICH guild because the mails (nice job @ZOS btw) do not even say in which guild that item sold!

Not even the price stays in the mail!

This studio instead of doing steps forward is going backwards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker trading is big part of this game for many players and what's happening now is just absurd.

The sales history addons provide should be INCLUDED IN GAME btw, it's grotesque we have to get this kind of QUALITY OF LIFE from addons alone!

And to add injury to insult (this is the right order this time around) we get screwed completely by you turning off history sales of with no ETA.

"To update you on this issue, we're working on the in-game guild history and the guild history data utilized by addons. The current plan is to re-enable the in-game portion, but leave the addon functionality that use the guild history turned off for now.

I really would like to know that "FOR NOW" how much time will take and if ever they will be "turned on" again, really worried about that.

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

DragonRacer · June 2019

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

The situation is absolutely AWFUL! I'm in 4 trading guilds which sell items at very different prices because location or members who buy directly and it's absolutely necessary to have sales history!

Not to mention we don't even know anymore WHAT sold in WHICH guild because the mails (nice job @ZOS btw) do not even say in which guild that item sold!

Not even the price stays in the mail!

This studio instead of doing steps forward is going backwards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker trading is big part of this game for many players and what's happening now is just absurd.

The sales history addons provide should be INCLUDED IN GAME btw, it's grotesque we have to get this kind of QUALITY OF LIFE from addons alone!

And to add injury to insult (this is the right order this time around) we get screwed completely by you turning off history sales of with no ETA.

"To update you on this issue, we're working on the in-game guild history and the guild history data utilized by addons. The current plan is to re-enable the in-game portion, but leave the addon functionality that use the guild history turned off for now.

I really would like to know that "FOR NOW" how much time will take and if ever they will be "turned on" again, really worried about that.

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

That's half the point, you walnut. ZOS turned OFF the guild history as part of some emergency measure with an indeterminate amount of time.

Regardless of how people feel about their add-ons, THEY DO NOT CURRENTLY HAVE ACCESS TO EVEN WHAT WE ON CONSOLE HAVE ACCESS TO RIGHT NOW.

Nobody reads to comprehend anymore. Not work emails, not message boards, nowhere. We just all garble words out into a vacuum, I guess.

StabbityDoom · June 2019

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

The situation is absolutely AWFUL! I'm in 4 trading guilds which sell items at very different prices because location or members who buy directly and it's absolutely necessary to have sales history!

Not to mention we don't even know anymore WHAT sold in WHICH guild because the mails (nice job @ZOS btw) do not even say in which guild that item sold!

Not even the price stays in the mail!

This studio instead of doing steps forward is going backwards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker trading is big part of this game for many players and what's happening now is just absurd.

The sales history addons provide should be INCLUDED IN GAME btw, it's grotesque we have to get this kind of QUALITY OF LIFE from addons alone!

And to add injury to insult (this is the right order this time around) we get screwed completely by you turning off history sales of with no ETA.

"To update you on this issue, we're working on the in-game guild history and the guild history data utilized by addons. The current plan is to re-enable the in-game portion, but leave the addon functionality that use the guild history turned off for now.

I really would like to know that "FOR NOW" how much time will take and if ever they will be "turned on" again, really worried about that.

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

Read the posts by the two console gms and you'll see why this won't work and cannot compare.

DragonRacer · June 2019

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

Read the posts by the two console gms and you'll see why this won't work and cannot compare.

I would love to know who the "like everybody else on console does" is that actually sits down and clicks on each individual sale of 300+ or more weekly sales pages and manually enters all of that data into a spreadsheet.

Because I can tell ya right now, that doesn't happen. Certainly not everybody, because I sure as heck don't, so now that is automatically not "everybody". I already know the sales tax the guilds get are a pittance so it is not even a factor in my mind. Whatever it brings in is simply a bonus. 100% of my trader bid income has to rely on donations, auctions, and raffles, period. I know, from experience, how much of those roughly come in and, therefore, roughly know on average how much bidding money I'll bring in per week and act accordingly from there.

But like heck is a console GM gonna go through that mess of sales history to manually record to know they made a whopping 300k off house cuts or whatever. Pffffftttt...

Only thing sales history is good for is to take a quick peek at what is selling like hot cakes in the guild at the moment and at what price, so you can toss some of your own in the pile. Only other thing sales history on console is good for is to see your average daily and weekly pages sold at particular vendors and cities to compare to how much you won them for and whittle down what places are worth it and what places aren't.

Otherwise, meh.

mystkldrgnb14_ESO · June 2019

Numerikuu wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I for one wouldn't even have started playing ESO without addons.

This. The first time I stepped into the game I was appalled by the awful and lacking UI in this game. If it wasn't for the addon community I'd have walked away 5mins into the game...

What MMO doesn't have a MINIMAP? I don't even.

QFT

I never would have played, much less subbed, if my only option to play this game was on console - because of the lack of addons. If PC wasn't able to have addons, I would have quit as soon as I saw the native UI and how useless it is.

I play 25 year old MMORPGs that have a better basic UI then TESO does - STILL. Even if their ui hasn't been updated in over 20 years.. its still better than the TESO native UI.

But addons are the savior. And thankfully, even with this stupid decision?bug?whatever with the guild history - noone at TES is attempting to throw out all addons.

And I can't believe anyone plays this game on console, much less pays a monthly fee to play this game on console - with no addons. You got far more patience (or love) for the game than I do! I feel for ya! And really wish there was a way to have addons on console.

And I hope Zenimax realizes what *most* PC players and guild leaders (and guilds) are saying here - and I Hope they turn the history function back on.

It can be very expensive to stay in a profitable trading guild and not being able to figure sales into that is going to significantly hamper people's ability to even belong in such guilds - if they can't just pay fees outright.

(For my trading guild - its 40K in sales or 10K outright guild bank deposit/raffle tickets a month to keep our current trader. If they couldn't track sales - many of our guildies couldn't afford a 30/40K a month PAYOUT DEPOSIT just to stay in the guild to keep it in its current guild-stall. I know I can't!)

So please Zeni - fix this! This makes zippo sense!

VaranisArano · June 2019

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

The situation is absolutely AWFUL! I'm in 4 trading guilds which sell items at very different prices because location or members who buy directly and it's absolutely necessary to have sales history!

Not to mention we don't even know anymore WHAT sold in WHICH guild because the mails (nice job @ZOS btw) do not even say in which guild that item sold!

Not even the price stays in the mail!

This studio instead of doing steps forward is going backwards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker trading is big part of this game for many players and what's happening now is just absurd.

The sales history addons provide should be INCLUDED IN GAME btw, it's grotesque we have to get this kind of QUALITY OF LIFE from addons alone!

And to add injury to insult (this is the right order this time around) we get screwed completely by you turning off history sales of with no ETA.

"To update you on this issue, we're working on the in-game guild history and the guild history data utilized by addons. The current plan is to re-enable the in-game portion, but leave the addon functionality that use the guild history turned off for now.

I really would like to know that "FOR NOW" how much time will take and if ever they will be "turned on" again, really worried about that.

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

A. That sales history, along with the rest of the guild history, got turned off.

B. From what the console GMs posting here have said, they don't use the Sales History at all, because that would be way, way too much data to figure out without the benefit of addons that agreegate each player's sales. Like, go look at the Sales History of a guild (if on PC, once it gets turned back on) and just think about the effort it would take to manually record all that to aggregate whether a certain player has met the sales requirement.

C. From what the Console GMs have said, they require raffle ticket purchases or weekly fees/donations because they can actually track those. So PC Guilds would have to make the same change - required raffles or weekly fees. The PC guild model where you can make a sales requirement flies out the window without guild management addons that let officers check that easily.

So what does that mean for PC players?
It means that our GMs are likely going to move to the console model: mandatory raffle tickets or weekly fees. No more sales requirements, because there's no feasible way to track who's meeting that requirement.

Is that a good thing?
It sucks for members of PC trading guilds who previously allowed them to make sales requirements. Most players will end up spending a lot more to make mandatory raffles or weekly fees, and it takes away some of the freedom we had to engage with guilds how we wanted to because we can't rely on "oh, I sell a bunch" instead of paying weekly fees. To be upfront, I'm in that boat: I sell a bunch precisely so I don't have to pay any weekly fees.

It sucks for every guild officer, console and PC alike, who have to do trade guild accounting with very few tools. That's more of an indictment against ZOS for its lack of tools for guilds and its reliance on addons to do what should be base game QOL functions. Hopefully, one of the things ZOS takes away from this is that while PC needs their addons, Console deserves better base game tools too!

Its going to be okay, probably, for the guild banks. Thing is, most PC guilds had a raffle or a fee because the sales requirement doesn't actually generate a huge amount of gold. If there's a 1k weekly fee, then every member has to sell 28.6K gold worth of stuff to make the same gold in sales tax. So while its a lot more work, the weekly revenue ought to get even better for most trading guilds if they switch to a raffle/fee only system rather than allowing sales requirements.

If anything, I hope ZOS takes this as a sign that they've been neglecting their Guilds, especially on Console, and starts seriously thinking about the tools that they ought to give Console AND PC guilds to better manage trading. Because its cool that Guild Finder makes it easier to find guilds, so why not help out the Guild Masters too?

Kidgangster101 · June 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Again with this entitlement PC players have. I COULD play on PC, but choose to play on console because of the cost effectiveness. I would rather spend 400ish dollars every 4-6 years to support a hobby I have then to pay 2000 dollars for an initial gaming computer and then about 300-800 a year to keep updating said computer to keep it running smooth.

Although your estimation of the costs of playing PC is utterly wrong, it doesn't change anything to the fact that you chose the cheapest product and then complain that it doesn't do everything the more expensive product does. Do you buy a bicycle and then complain you have to produce muscle effort and it's not as fast as a car ? Do you then think all cars should be gimped to the speed of bicycle, in the delusional hope that cars would then be produced and sold at the price of bicycles ? Or that bicycles would be equipped with a motor for the same price ? That's pretty much what you're saying.

I do not feel "entitled" to addons because addons involve benevolent work from addon authors, and I don't feel entitled to that. I'm thankful for it. But from ZOS' side, I do feel entitled that their API keeps on supporting the addons that have been enhancing our game experience for years.

You on the other hand appear to feel very entitled about having the same game experience as PC players - without having to pay the price for your equipment.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Have you ever thought why they changed their game model? When it launched on PC it was a mandatory subscription based game. They realized that it wasn't selling enough subs and they took the micro transactions approach and ported it to console to "cash grab" as many people as possible. If they didn't port over to console and change to micro transactions we might not be sitting here having this conversation right now because eso might have just died within a few years due to lack of players.

Have you ever thought that, if they hadn't ported the game onto consoles, everyone would play on PC and we wouldn't be having this conversation because ZOS would have had the time and the means to invest in PC-megaservers, PC-UI, PC-coding and the game would be running as smooth as in paradise, because ZOS wouldn't have had to adapt and invest in 3 different platforms, but just one ?
(Hint : sarcasm hidden in this paragraph).

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

people saying they are entitled to run features that aren't part of the core game (that other games ban you for using if you.get caught or admit to using them).

I don't play "other games" and I don't care about "other games". We're talking ESO here.

- There's no way ZOS could implement into the core game all the extra features provided by add-ons. The diversity, amount and creativity of add-ons allow a level of customization that no vanilla UI could afford (unless, maybe, if they made it as complicated to learn and use as, say, Photoshop).
- Add-ons allow ZOS to see what features are really wanted and used by players, and they've already implemented some of the most popular features into the game (combat number clouds, combat logging, buff timers, trader UI, etc.). Without add-ons authors and us, PC players, you consolers would never have seen any of it.

Have you ever thought about what if they didn't port it to console the game would have died by now just like they had to reboot ff14? 🤔🤔🤔

And your telling me that people that make these add-ons can do zos job better than them? But yet everyone praises zos at doing such a good job? I wonder are they really if PC players make the game better by using technology outside of zos? That would be like saying the supermarket did a great job with their hamburger meat when the but her is the one that makes it lol.

srfrogg23 · June 2019

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

reoskit · June 2019

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

Kidgangster101 · June 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Sorry, no sympathy here. Roll up your sleeves and get to work, folks.

Copying figures from a screen to a spreadsheet isn't "work". It's plain stupid copying.
Do you feel lazy, spoiled and entitled when you send or receive an email ? Do you feel you're unfairly skipping the "real work" that snail mail is ? Should we all go back to snail mail just because x% of the world population has no internet access ?

The true work isn't collecting the data, it's analyzing and making good use of it according to the goals you've set for your trading guild. People who automate the collection part aren't lazy. They're smart.

I'm sorry console guys don't have addons, but it's not our fault. Blame ZOS, speak to ZOS. Managing a trading guild without those tools is nothing to be proud of. It's just a plain waste of time.

Well, looks like you don't have a choice now, so...you can quit like so many are saying (making this a quit thread?), or you can get to making those copies.

You have no choice.

Crying isn't getting those numbers, now is it?

People are quitting

This was an unneeded, unannounced, and highly disruptive negative change to trade guild which have functioned with these QoL tools since guild traders began. The entire trading community developed with addons.

To just tell every to suck it up when they’re handed a abacus instead of a calculator when they’re expected to do detailed record keeping and data analysis, is f***king ignorant

But if we had a global auction house players wouldn't need to run a full time job in a trader guild, that could be another guild slot used to run content with and not be focused on trade see. You guys on PC basically use a global auction house but yet you are against it being implimemted into the game....... Sounds so logically to me.....

srfrogg23 · June 2019

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

starkerealm · June 2019

Spage wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i dont agree with your saying "we"
myself and many others of the eso communtiy "hate" the addons and hate they are even allowed in eso.
in single player games addons are awesome and really fun and joy, but not in an MMO they are completely an open door for cheating and its been proven that with miats addon, and many others, that the ability to cheat does exist and is even still being used in eso.

heres some proof
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360442/miat-addon

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387011/miats-zeni-can-i-have-new-skills-please/p1

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/397179/why-wont-miats-addon-die

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308971/miats-pvp-alerts-addon/p1

the list is never ending ...

add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!

Your "never ending" list is about a single addon (that I've never heard of).

The addons we're referring to simply read and display Guild Histories in usable ways. This post is about Guild History access - not whatever you're on about.

"add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!" Really? I wouldn't have played longer than a month without a mini map addon.

If you have beef with one particular addon, that's completely fine, but it's not helpful to this discussion.

The entire issue with Miat was, it was providing you with information on being attacked by other players from stealth before you knew they were there, "legitimately." So, you'd get a pop up telling you to block an incoming lethal arrow before you could see it, for example.

The addon still exists, and a lot of the functionality is still there, but the anti-gank cues were stripped from the API.

Kidgangster101 · June 2019

wavingblue wrote: »

I'm just wondering what the console players get out of trolling a PC thread that is about a PC issue relating to the PC game with absolutely no dog in the hunt.

Because console players want their game they play improved. But you pc players don't want it improved because you already have an add-on for it.

I don't understand way back when console players were asking for text chat because the game was terrible to communicate in, why did PC players keep coming into OUR thread and say we don't need text chat because we had voice chat which PC players don't have built into their game so it would be unfair we gain both.

That is just one example of why people are saying stuff here, the add-on improves your gameplay and console players want something similar built into their game, and then you don't even need an add-on to use it. Is that really hard to understand?

StabbityDoom · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

Even if some "adapt," many other people will leave.

Jhalin · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

reoskit · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

To adaptation, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. For many of us, our vision of the vanilla UI includes darkui and pchat and no thank you and and and. But anyway, we’d just have to see how that would shake out.

To the domination - I know many traders across many guilds who pull in incredible sales, whatever their methods. I wonder which specific handful you refer to? There’s a lot of gold and a lot of goods to go around. Are there exceptional/top traders? You bet. There’s still tons of wealth kicking around with everyone else. Saying a “handful” makes it sound sinister, like everyone who is not one of them is cut out, which is simply not the case.

DragonRacer · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

Ummmm, if you think the current limitations of the game UI sans add-ons - such as the console version - somehow magically prevents a small handful of guilds from having a razor-grip on the capital city traders, then I have some very bad news for you...

srfrogg23 · June 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

srfrogg23 · June 2019

DragonRacer wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

Ummmm, if you think the current limitations of the game UI sans add-ons - such as the console version - somehow magically prevents a small handful of guilds from having a razor-grip on the capital city traders, then I have some very bad news for you...

Well, at least they're doing it the way it was intended. Which really just goes to show that addons are also an unnecessary crutch, anyway.

therift · June 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

The situation is absolutely AWFUL! I'm in 4 trading guilds which sell items at very different prices because location or members who buy directly and it's absolutely necessary to have sales history!

Not to mention we don't even know anymore WHAT sold in WHICH guild because the mails (nice job @ZOS btw) do not even say in which guild that item sold!

Not even the price stays in the mail!

This studio instead of doing steps forward is going backwards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker trading is big part of this game for many players and what's happening now is just absurd.

The sales history addons provide should be INCLUDED IN GAME btw, it's grotesque we have to get this kind of QUALITY OF LIFE from addons alone!

And to add injury to insult (this is the right order this time around) we get screwed completely by you turning off history sales of with no ETA.

"To update you on this issue, we're working on the in-game guild history and the guild history data utilized by addons. The current plan is to re-enable the in-game portion, but leave the addon functionality that use the guild history turned off for now.

I really would like to know that "FOR NOW" how much time will take and if ever they will be "turned on" again, really worried about that.

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

A. That sales history, along with the rest of the guild history, got turned off.

B. From what the console GMs posting here have said, they don't use the Sales History at all, because that would be way, way too much data to figure out without the benefit of addons that agreegate each player's sales. Like, go look at the Sales History of a guild (if on PC, once it gets turned back on) and just think about the effort it would take to manually record all that to aggregate whether a certain player has met the sales requirement.

C. From what the Console GMs have said, they require raffle ticket purchases or weekly fees/donations because they can actually track those. So PC Guilds would have to make the same change - required raffles or weekly fees. The PC guild model where you can make a sales requirement flies out the window without guild management addons that let officers check that easily.

So what does that mean for PC players?
It means that our GMs are likely going to move to the console model: mandatory raffle tickets or weekly fees. No more sales requirements, because there's no feasible way to track who's meeting that requirement.

Is that a good thing?
It sucks for members of PC trading guilds who previously allowed them to make sales requirements. Most players will end up spending a lot more to make mandatory raffles or weekly fees, and it takes away some of the freedom we had to engage with guilds how we wanted to because we can't rely on "oh, I sell a bunch" instead of paying weekly fees. To be upfront, I'm in that boat: I sell a bunch precisely so I don't have to pay any weekly fees.

It sucks for every guild officer, console and PC alike, who have to do trade guild accounting with very few tools. That's more of an indictment against ZOS for its lack of tools for guilds and its reliance on addons to do what should be base game QOL functions. Hopefully, one of the things ZOS takes away from this is that while PC needs their addons, Console deserves better base game tools too!

Its going to be okay, probably, for the guild banks. Thing is, most PC guilds had a raffle or a fee because the sales requirement doesn't actually generate a huge amount of gold. If there's a 1k weekly fee, then every member has to sell 28.6K gold worth of stuff to make the same gold in sales tax. So while its a lot more work, the weekly revenue ought to get even better for most trading guilds if they switch to a raffle/fee only system rather than allowing sales requirements.

If anything, I hope ZOS takes this as a sign that they've been neglecting their Guilds, especially on Console, and starts seriously thinking about the tools that they ought to give Console AND PC guilds to better manage trading. Because its cool that Guild Finder makes it easier to find guilds, so why not help out the Guild Masters too?

@VaranisArano is correct on all points, speaking as officer of three console trading guilds.

In particular, point B is quite correct. I've tried tracking sales in a fourth guild that occasionally hires a low-tier kiosk. It was very difficult, even at a sales pace of a couple transactions per hour. In a large trading guild, where multiple transactions occur per minute, it is not possible to manually transcribe guild member names at a pace necessary to keep up.

So the House Cut is essentially, lost data for purposes of measuring guild member contributions towards the trader bid.

irstarkey57 · June 2019

I don’t even know what to say anymore....bug after bug after bug. And large ones. Meanwhile Cyro is laggy as all hell etc. end is near. At least for me. Bummed out.

DragonRacer · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine. It might even get better when only a handful of players are no longer dominating the entire market and we maybe start seeing more rotation through the trading hotspots.

Ummmm, if you think the current limitations of the game UI sans add-ons - such as the console version - somehow magically prevents a small handful of guilds from having a razor-grip on the capital city traders, then I have some very bad news for you...

Well, at least they're doing it the way it was intended. Which really just goes to show that addons are also an unnecessary crutch, anyway.

If by "was intended" means setting up a bunch of ghost/shell guilds as a) back-up guilds if their main bid loses and/or b) to force other guilds out of an area so that they get the primary traffic since their shop has goods while the ghosts are empty shops and/or c) to force out other guilds and then offer to sell them that spot at a mark-up and/or to their buddy who lost...

... then I suppose they are "doing it the way it was intended"?

For the record, even though I GM a trading guild, this system has so, so many issues and flaws. Lots of things need some quality of life improvements about it, and it ain't just the UI...