We feared you'd leave addons unable to read guild history. Don't make it permanent please.

Pevey

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

reoskit

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine.

Here's a "fun" idea for PC players who currently use addons:

Take an hour or so this weekend. Disable all of your addons. Then, play. And I'm not just talking questing. Do your usual, daily stuffs.

Report back. Y'all ready for adaptation?

Edit: werds

TheTraveler

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Doing your own price check isnt hard, just time consuming.

You go around to a couple traders, usually the capital cities or the ones near your trader, and figure out what the geberal proce for your item is. Its a lot easier now that we have an item search.

That being said, its a LOT harder to "fine tune" your sales. You pretty much have to go with a general price that more or less matches what you see in your guild and others nearby.

That's pretty much how traders operate on console.

Hold on... what you describe above, is just what people are prepared to SELL their goodies for, it tells you nothing about what people are prepared to PAY for that item. Looking at guild sales history tells you exactly what people are prepared to PAY for an item. I have no interest in the silly prices people prepare to put on their items; some are waay above what buyers are prepared to pay, and some are way below, so item -checking helps me exactly zero.

I'll reply, since that's my comment you are responding to.

You are correct. That's just how the game works when you don't have addons that can check the actual selling price of items. You don't get the same data or the convenience.

It usually works out okay, though obviously much less precise, if you pay attention to what items are listed for in your guild and nearby guilds. If your price is about in the same ballpark or lower, it usually sells.

Yes, its less precise. Yes, its more time-consuming. Yes, its not ideal - that would be PC and Console getting the same trading tools as a base-game function.

But no, its neither hard nor insurmountable. You can still list items for a reasonable price and still get sales. Its what you do if you have no addons or no TTC.

Its also how I started out trading in ESO. Its kinda sad and funny that those early trading skills I learned when I was too noobish to use addons are turning out to be useful again.

I understand what you are saying, you are saying look at prices; but i'm not quite sure if you get what aspect i have learned to trust way more than prices, and that is sales, and that WAS available in guild history with or without addons. I've tried a few trade guilds here and there, and in the ones without guidance who generally don't use addons, prices of the exact -same product could range from the ridiculously high to the ridiculously low. To try and work out a feasible "average" out of such wildly fluctuating prices could be both misleading as well as complex and is something i am not prepared to waste my time on.

TheTraveler

Pevey wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, i am saying that the point of online PC games is to be competitive in the first place, so why should one not strive to be be as competitive as possible and why should one feel apologetic about it? It goes with the territory.

barney2525

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Hm... "non-constructive"?

"Baiting"?

You forgot to mention that it's the only relevant question.

If guild traders are so great, then why is everyone losing their minds over not being able to use addons just to be able to enjoy it?

If we need a bunch of addons just to make it bearable, then Zos, you should be asking yourselves why. Not censoring my posts.

If the guild can No Longer have a record of my character's 10k weekly deposit, then I am skrugeed.

StabbityDoom

barney2525 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Hm... "non-constructive"?

"Baiting"?

You forgot to mention that it's the only relevant question.

If guild traders are so great, then why is everyone losing their minds over not being able to use addons just to be able to enjoy it?

If we need a bunch of addons just to make it bearable, then Zos, you should be asking yourselves why. Not censoring my posts.

If the guild can No Longer have a record of my character's 10k weekly deposit, then I am skrugeed.

If this only lasts this week I cannot imagine a guild holding that against you.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

TheTraveler wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

That is the entire point of this thread. There IS no sales history available. They turned it off. If you look there it just says: "No entries"

Ok then it is a problem now

It work on console thought

SteveCampsOut

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

Just because an MMO has a competitive "Aspect" to it, that does not define it as a "Competitive" game. There are folks who are just here for the fishing for cryin' out loud. Don't judge!

SteveCampsOut

TheTraveler wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, i am saying that the point of online PC games is to be competitive in the first place, so why should one not strive to be be as competition as possible and why should one feel apologetic about it? It goes with the territory.

Again. That might be your playstyle but it's most certainly NOT the Point of the entire MMO genre.

StabbityDoom

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

That is the entire point of this thread. There IS no sales history available. They turned it off. If you look there it just says: "No entries"

Ok then it is a problem now

It work on console thought

Yea, only PCs had it turned off, which is the point.

StabbityDoom

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, i am saying that the point of online PC games is to be competitive in the first place, so why should one not strive to be be as competition as possible and why should one feel apologetic about it? It goes with the territory.

Again. That might be your playstyle but it's most certainly NOT the Point of the entire MMO genre.

Especially not this one, with the housing and trading aspects. The rp aspects. The fishing aspects. There’s lots of non competitive areas here.

Sylvermynx

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, i am saying that the point of online PC games is to be competitive in the first place, so why should one not strive to be be as competition as possible and why should one feel apologetic about it? It goes with the territory.

Again. That might be your playstyle but it's most certainly NOT the Point of the entire MMO genre.

Eh.... I'm not into "competitive". I don't have a competitive bone in my body. I seriously don't care what anyone else has done in this or any other game. *rolls eyes*

XenoAlbedo

I find it genuinely difficult to believe people are actually defending the idea of permanently disabling the ability for addons to access guild history.

Ackwalan

XenoAlbedo wrote: »

I find it genuinely difficult to believe people are actually defending the idea of permanently disabling the ability for addons to access guild history.

Forward camps were removed for over a year until ZOS came up with their current version. I have a feeling the add-on accessing guild history is just a symptom of a larger problem they were working on.

GarnetFire17

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

I never said that there is anything wrong with competitiveness. But that's not why I personally choose to manage a trade guild. I am not trying to win the ESO economy or anything. I'm not trying work my way to the top spot and just make the guild have more and more sales unto infinite. I just want to make my trade guild as enjoyable to be in as I can and to have it be accessible to players whether they are hardcore sellers or casual ones. That means keeping a good trader spot even if it's not the best, it's also providing other perks and keeping the guild full of people that use the store at least more than a miniscule amount. Without addons a lot those important things can't be done. It's about the guild being strong from within not just where there trader is and how much sales they have every week.

tahol10069

Thank you ZOS for nothing. I decided finally try trading in this godawful trading system you saw fit to create, and that meant I had to get ESO+ too because crafting bag and extra bank space. To afford ESO+, I had to unsubscribe from other service. This happened two weeks ago. First week I sold for about 50k, which was OK for a guild that has trader in a less popular spot with much less traffic than places like Vivec city, or any city for all I know. I also have to sell dirt cheap for the same reason.

How much do you developers in your bubble think I earned this week? This far it has been 1000 gold. One thousand. I don't know why I even bother. Your system is ridicilous, and you make it even worse now. There is NO way in this fresh hell a person who doesn't want to have gaming as a second job can make a dime in this mafia-based market system, and now you make it even more difficult because why? We don't even know. I'm 100% sure many other players share my experience and haven't sold a crap this week because we have to sell in a spot that doesn't attract any traffic, and people don't do price checking now. They either don't buy at all, or they just say *** it and buy from where it is convenient.

ESO has it's merits as a game. But after playing few months (this was my third attempt to live with your product after I bought it 2015) again, I really begin to think why I even bother. Clearly I'm not an important customer. Not that I think I'm that important of a person, but why do you want to make everything so damn difficult and complicated? Do you think that you are in a position where competition is so non existent that you can just overlook your customers and walk all over them when ever you feel like it? Because I aint your hostige, and I don't fall for sunk cost fallacy. I have zero loyalty for some game. Get your *** together and fast.

Edit: In my 50 years of life, this is first time I get so pissed about a game company I rant on their forums. Normally I just leave a game when I'm unhappy with it. I have never seen that complaining has changed anything unless developers are already biased to that direction and the change feels more pleasant to work with because they agree with it. I just know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but so many casual players never say anything and get tramped all over so allow me rant this one time. Next move is I quietly just take my business elsewhere like an adult person should and like I normally do. I'm not that important to anyone else than myself, but jesus christ this company grates my nerves.

misfitmanic

What if all the sales information that is no longer available to the add on api was made available to ESO logs? GM/officer could type /g1saleslog and begin recording said data. It could then be made available to all who need it. Problem would be solved. Let’s see you work dat magic ZOS

GarnetFire17

tahol10069 wrote: »

Thank you ZOS for nothing. I decided finally try trading in this godawful trading system you saw fit to create, and that meant I had to get ESO+ too because crafting bag and extra bank space. To afford ESO+, I had to unsubscribe from other service. This happened two weeks ago. First week I sold for about 50k, which was OK for a guild that has trader in a less popular spot with much less traffic than places like Vivec city, or any city for all I know. I also have to sell dirt cheap for the same reason.

How much do you developers in your bubble think I earned this week? This far it has been 1000 gold. One thousand. I don't know why I even bother. Your system is ridicilous, and you make it even worse now. There is NO way in this fresh hell a person who doesn't want to have gaming as a second job can make a dime in this mafia-based market system, and now you make it even more difficult because why? We don't even know. I'm 100% sure many other players share my experience and haven't sold a crap this week because we have to sell in a spot that doesn't attract any traffic, and people don't do price checking now. They either don't buy at all, or they just say *** it and buy from where it is convenient.

ESO has it's merits as a game. But after playing few months (this was my third attempt to live with your product after I bought it 2015) again, I really begin to think why I even bother. Clearly I'm not an important customer. Not that I think I'm that important of a person, but why do you want to make everything so damn difficult and complicated? Do you think that you are in a position where competition is so non existent that you can just overlook your customers and walk all over them when ever you feel like it? Because I aint your hostige, and I don't fall for sunk cost fallacy. I have zero loyalty for some game. Get your *** together and fast.

Edit: In my 50 years of life, this is first time I get so pissed about a game company I rant on their forums. Normally I just leave a game when I'm unhappy with it. I have never seen that complaining has changed anything unless developers are already biased to that direction and the change feels more pleasant to work with because they agree with it. I just know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but so many casual players never say anything and get tramped all over so allow me rant this one time. Next move is I quietly just take my business elsewhere like an adult person should and like I normally do. I'm not that important to anyone else than myself, but jesus christ this company grates my nerves.

If you hate it so much, why are you playing ESO. It's the only game that has this kind of system for people who like it. Plenty of other MMOs with a Global Auction House to play. You say we are mafias but I haven't had to break anyone's legs or put splints under any fingernails yet. In my experience making gold in ESO is easy as can be so I don't really get why you are so bent out of shape about Guild Traders.

KyraCROgnon

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

iirc, ZOS excuse for a lot of missing basic functionnalities (like mini map for exemple ...) has always been "we allowed add-ons , so just make your own" . If the game had a rich interface, we could do without them, but it has never been ZOS politic to improve on gameplay when they could have unpaid volunteers do it !
So your sentence is completely wrong : a lot of features should have been in game but weren't included to cut cost because they hoped add-on makers to fill the gap.

martinhpb16_ESO

XenoAlbedo wrote: »

I find it genuinely difficult to believe people are actually defending the idea of permanently disabling the ability for addons to access guild history.

People vote for all sorts of self inflicted harm these days in the name of ideology

anitajoneb17_ESO

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

But this is OUR issue as an entire community though lol. "OUR game...

Sorry, nope. Console players and PC/Mac players are separate communities. If console players shared the same vision as PC/Mac players of what playing an MMO is or should be, if they had the same understanding of addons and game customization as PC/Mac players, they would not be playing on console in the very first place.
Don't get me wrong, I respect the reasons why people choose to play ESO on consoles, but whatever those reasons are, they show a different vision of MMO gaming altogether, which makes them a different community, with a different mentality, playstyle and concerns.

That shows a bit of everywhere in the forums, but even more evidently in this thread, where you prove that playing the trading game and running a trading guild in ESO are completely different things on PC/Mac and on consoles.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

[
And your telling me that people that make these add-ons can do zos job better than them? But yet everyone praises zos at doing such a good job? I wonder are they really if PC players make the game better by using technology outside of zos? That would be like saying the supermarket did a great job with their hamburger meat when the but her is the one that makes it lol.

At this stage I seriously doubt that you're trying to have a genuine conversation, but I'll bite.
Addon developers aren't BETTER than ZOS at implementing things or coding. But ZOS can only choose ONE design for any given system, while addon developers offer a multitude of options.
Take, for instance, the ability to save gear sets and change stuff on the spot. There are several addons that offer this : AlphaGear, Dressing Room, Wykkyd's Outfit (not sure that one's still working) , and maybe others that I don't know of. Each of them has an excellent design and implementation, but they're also very different. If ZOS chose to incorporate this function into the base game (which I believe they should), they'd have to choose between all those various design options, or a combination thereof, and no matter what they choose to do, it won't ever please everyone. Same goes for minimaps (at least 3 of them are extremely popular and each player has its own beloved one), combat logs, inventory sorting, etc. Basically, every aspect of the game.

The variety of addons allows to please everyone, while choosing ONE design as ZOS is forced to do cannot please everyone. That's why addons will ALWAYS have an added value as compared to vanilla.

On a side note, addons are not used to circumvent the game's original design, but to enhance it. ZOS keeps control on addons via the API, and if they think something breaks the intended gameplay in any way, they shut it down via the API. Happened with Miat's addons, with Group Damage, etc.

Takanami

The devs are so out of touch with the player base its absurd

Now I remember why I quit 4 years ago

lemonizzle

Again, I'm really glad I decided to hold on purchasing Elsweyr. It feels like as the company wants more players (their money) that they can actually handle and it is showing every day. Many, and I do mean many people continue to play after completing endgame content and quests for the trading. One week is bearable without it if it means some fix, but anything longer downtime combined with summer vacations coming will mean serious drop in player count.
Maybe that is their goal I don't know, but it is never a good business tactic to *** of long loyal players (even their favourites, the Whales) enough that they leave the game they have invested thousand hours in. Zos has a good move here and there, but they really should reconsider quality vs quantity regarding to their game and its content.

srfrogg23

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

Mental gymnastics to say the console market developed differently than PC? Nah I don’t think so.

PC trading has functioned healthy because PC guilds can base requirements off sales rather easily. It’s more player-friendly and generates a nice reward system for those who participate when a weekly fee is waived in light of good sales numbers.

Console, in general, doesn’t use sales as a metric at all because gathering the info is tedious. That environment is much less welcoming and doesn’t distinguish between high participation sellers and those just hanging out in the guild for a week. They all have the same donation reqs even if one person sells 100k and another sold 50k. Even with addons I’d venture to say PC trade GMs work as hard or harder than console trade guild GMs do due to the completely different requirement system we’ve all come to know here.

The reward systems like sales tax returns, high-seller bonuses are not feasible on console because you lack a proper data gathering tool. On PC those reward systems are common.

Maybe you’re selectively reading, but people on PC would agree that bringing over many addon function, especially for guilds, would be welcome on consoles. You’re not competing against addons in your system, which is the point. PC players all have equal access to addons, further making that point moot. The trade system at its base is social and unique on top of all the good it does keeping gold inflation down. That doesn’t mean it’s not in dire need of an update.

I'm not selectively reading. I understand exactly what you're saying. "Addons make guild traders worthwhile".

You're not understanding me. I'm saying, "guild traders suck because they're only worth a damn if you use a bunch of addons. People who don't use addons are at a disadvantage because of that. The guild trader system needs to go away. If it's not going to go away, then everyone needs to be on an equal playing field. That means getting rid of the addons, permanently."

You see, I don't care if you think you're somehow facilitating a good gameplay experience for non-addon-using players because you use addons yourself. I want you to experience the guild trader system in its purest form and then come back and tell me how fun it is.

Game devs need real feedback on this system. People like to brush aside the criticism of it by saying "just download all these addons so it doesn't suck". Sorry, no. That's bad design. We should not need to download 3rd party software just to make a mechanic bearable.

So, no more addons, I say. Play it the way I do. See how you enjoy it after that.

srfrogg23

reoskit wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine.

Here's a "fun" idea for PC players who currently use addons:

Take an hour or so this weekend. Disable all of your addons. Then, play. And I'm not just talking questing. Do your usual, daily stuffs.

Report back. Y'all ready for adaptation?

Edit: werds

I agree. Addons should be disabled across the board. I don't use any myself.

I think the best way for the devs to receive real feedback is to be provided with real feedback. The best way to get real feedback is to make sure players play the game the way it was intended. That means zero addons.

If they lose a bunch of money because people quit supporting the game due to bad mechanics, like the guild trader system, then so be it. Losing money is sometimes the only form of feedback that a developer is willing to listen to. Whatever works as long as it gets them to look at their product objectively.

srfrogg23

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

iirc, ZOS excuse for a lot of missing basic functionnalities (like mini map for exemple ...) has always been "we allowed add-ons , so just make your own" . If the game had a rich interface, we could do without them, but it has never been ZOS politic to improve on gameplay when they could have unpaid volunteers do it !
So your sentence is completely wrong : a lot of features should have been in game but weren't included to cut cost because they hoped add-on makers to fill the gap.

And, that stance, 5 years ago, was wrong. It's time for them to rethink that strategy. This is a multiplayer game. What I do affects other people and vice-versa.

Just because they were thinking of cosmetic changes with addons, doesn't mean that they intended for players to use addons that give them advantages over other players.

That original philosophy was not intended to give players carte blanche freedom to do whatever the heck they wanted to do.

wavingblue

srfrogg23 wrote: »

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

iirc, ZOS excuse for a lot of missing basic functionnalities (like mini map for exemple ...) has always been "we allowed add-ons , so just make your own" . If the game had a rich interface, we could do without them, but it has never been ZOS politic to improve on gameplay when they could have unpaid volunteers do it !
So your sentence is completely wrong : a lot of features should have been in game but weren't included to cut cost because they hoped add-on makers to fill the gap.

And, that stance, 5 years ago, was wrong. It's time for them to rethink that strategy. This is a multiplayer game. What I do affects other people and vice-versa.

Just because they were thinking of cosmetic changes with addons, doesn't mean that they intended for players to use addons that give them advantages over other players.

That original philosophy was not intended to give players carte blanche freedom to do whatever the heck they wanted to do.

So you have been part of the dev team and the original makers of this game? You know exactly what they had in mind or didn't? That's pretty impressive to meet an OG.

starkerealm

DragonRacer wrote: »

And so the thread receives a Z stamp, but for moderation rather than an answer.

This will go over well...

In this, we have only ourselves to blame. Every day we drift further from Finn's light. :P

anitajoneb17_ESO

srfrogg23 wrote: »

That original philosophy was not intended to give players carte blanche freedom to do whatever the heck they wanted to do.

TES philosophy, including ESO philosophy, has ALWAYS been to give players carte blanche freedom to do whatever the heck they wanted to do. "PLAY HOW YOU WANT". And that includes addons. If you choose to play without addons, feel free to do so, but by all means, if you're that unhappy with playing the game this way, just quit. Or use addons. That's on you.
I fail to see what depriving other players from what they enjoy would make your life any better, because it wouldn't bring you anything. Your freedom stops where other people's freedom starts.
Also please stop victimizing yourself by thinking addon users have an unfair advantage over you. All they do is customizing their game to their liking, and if you refuse to do the same for yourself, it's not unfair, it's just your choice.

martinhpb16_ESO

Addons are a thing, they are not going away.

If you dont like addons dont use them. Telling me and people like me not to use addons is a fruitless cause. You could go and start your own anti-addon thread elsewhere and allow us here to feedback on what we need to do to run our trade guilds.

Zos please bring back guild history so that we can use the addons that allow us to undertake complex guild admin, so that we can continue to run trade guilds that thousands of people enjoy being members of. Please also consider using this opportunity to start a productive dialogue with Trade Guild gms and officers so that we can begin to improve on the trade system.