CatchMeTrolling wrote: »However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skill-line.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
Where was that concern when making the Bosmer changes? What about all the Bosmer that could sneak through a tight corridor "yesterday" and can no longer do that "today"? They took away a major part of Bosmer gameplay with no explanation other than 'cuz reasons...
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »[...]
The thing is, that initial boost is what a bog-basic Bosmer gets. Your average, run-of-the-mill Bosmer has better Sneak than the average Nord or Altmer -- but those other races can focus on Sneak and level their Sneak skill to become as good or better. And a Bosmer who specializes in Sneak will start out better, but at the end of a bunch of adventurers as they become a Master Thief, they're not especially better at Sneak than a Nord Master Thief. They just maybe got there a little faster. This was actually one of the cool things about those games -- you could be anyone and do anything, but the lore was embodied in the starting boost you got as you got the ball rolling.
With that in mind, maybe the solution is to give Bosmer and Khajiit a boost to Legerdemain experience gain, similar to the boost that the different races get with weapon skill lines. Similar to the Sneak skill in previous games and the weapon skill xp boosts in ESO, that boost wouldn't matter anymore once a player has maxed a skill, but it would start them out higher and that would continue to support the lore that Bosmer and Khajiit are better at these things -- while still meeting ZOS's stated goal of making the stealth boosts accessible to more players. (And leveling Legerdemain takes work, it's not just a "I ran dolmens for 5 hours and now I've maxed out the skill!")
(Optionally, you could add also more stealth boosts to the Legerdemain line, like a passive for reducing stealth detection radius similar to what medium armor provides, and/or a passive for increasing stealth speed. I'd like to see those, but they're secondary.)
We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.
I wonder how we can bring depth to stealth gameplay in the rather limiting way they did the mechanics in eso. Do we need to rethink how stealth works? Do we need to reimagine and rebuild the “mechanics” of stealth?
thegreatme wrote: »
This might be going slightly off into "that's never going to happen" territory but I wouldn't mind some kind of parkour mechanics to go along with my stealth Assassins Creed anyone? Yes? No?
Sadly ESO's mechanics aren't built for that playstyle but I can dream I'll just be dreaming a long time.
It was either, "I mained a Khajiit and I hate that Bosmer stole our passive," (without understanding the lore) or, "hey, look, Bosmer passives are just copies of other races passives, they must want more unique passives, they'll love it," (without understanding the lore). And then they replaced stealth with that garbage detection puddle of uselessness.No, it worked fine for almost five years. No one questioned why Bosmer were stealthy. No one complained about it. If they weren't interested in stealth, they chose another race, and never gave it a second thought. It was never an issue until someone out of the blue said, "Hey, let's take Bosmer's stealth away! That will be fun! Players will love us for it!" or whatever they said at the time.
The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree. Also, having it tied to medium armor is odd, since it penalized having just clothing on, which is traditionally the best thing to sneak in (medium armor would hurt sneaking a little in previous games, while heavy armor would hurt a lot, it was based on the weight of the armor and more weight was bad until you got muffled boots and the perk to reduce the armor weight penalty). I would like to see the first skill in legerdemain look like: "reduce stealth detection radius (hiding bonus) by 1% for each piece of medium armor and 2% for each piece of light armor, and reduce the cost of sneak by 15%" per rank in the first legerdemain passive which is already called (conveniently enough) 'improved hiding.' With CP and/or sets you could get the cost down to 0%.thegreatme wrote: »Legerdmain revolves around higher pickpocket RNG and being able to sell more stolen goods. Not stealth/sneak radius or detection.
There are currently no alternate "learnable" skill lines for sneaking around having to do with stealth radius or better/worse detection-of-player, except for (1) medium armor passive. Its all on specialized gear set bonuses.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 TES games with racial skill bonuses (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Bosmer:
Hunter's Eye: replace the detection bonus with the original bonus to sneaking (WITHOUT the damage bonus from sneak attacks). Leave the rest of the passive alone.
Justification: huh? Where have you been? Re-read all 70-however-many pages of this thread.
Argonian:
Resourceful: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Argonian Resistance: add poison resistance back (but not immunity to the poisoned effect).
Justification: Argonians are one of the four most consistently stealthy races, and they should therefor also have a bonus to sneaking. They are currently underpowered anyways. I do not mind that they would have two resistances while Bosmer would have only one, frankly, that's the lore and it's been the case more often than not in the other games. I suspect most other Bosmer players would agree. Strictly speaking, the poison thing isn't particularly relevant to the current discussion, but I'm including it anyways because this is MY post and I can do that.
Dark Elf:
Ruination: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Justification: While Dark Elves are hardly underpowered now, they are also one of the four most stealthy races and should also have this bonus.
Orc:
Any one of their passives: Give the Orcs the detection bonus that was taken from the Bosmer.
Justification: Orcs are hardly underpowered, actually it's quite the opposite. However, with both EP and AD having stealthy races, it is only proper that DC have an innate counter. Orcs are the obvious choice, anyways, since they are the only race to have demonstrated this ability in the lore, and are also shown in the lore as being hyper-vigilant to the point of paranoia. This would (or could, at any rate) allow for some sneak/counter-sneak gameplay that the current situation does not allow for.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »[...]
Probably part of the reason why so few people are interested in stealth gameplay is the fact that this was such a limited index and because (apparently) not a lot of thought went into designing stealth gameplay.
[...]
If we're going to be the noisiest race, maybe they should put a new Bosmer scout costume in the crown store, replete with jangling bells and dangling cymbals. If the enemy is going to see us coming a mile away, we may as well look and sound good doing it.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
That had nothing to do with comprehending but rather testing it, nice try.
What? Lol, apparently we collectively have reading comprehension yet we know exactly what the passives mean.
Yeah, the problem is always with other people. 🙄CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.
Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.
How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.
The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.
Exactly. The strength of the Elder Scrolls IP is that it has a (mostly) consistent lore that travels from game to game. A broad conflict with the lore (like the passive changes to wood elves and argonians) stands out like a sore thumb.
Elder scrolls is a long form story. The races are the major players and the passives are their personalities.
The lore has to stay consistent or the whole narrative feels shallow.
That’s called believing word of mouth without checking yourself. It’s like saying it’s cloudy outside and the other person believes you without actually looking outside. Zos plainly wrote detect. So anyone is going to think they meant detect.
“Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5%” - but I’m sure you all knowing geniuses some how deciphered that automatically.
ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Just a friendly reminder, as we've removed some posts, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.
If we're going to be the noisiest race, maybe they should put a new Bosmer scout costume in the crown store, replete with jangling bells and dangling cymbals. If the enemy is going to see us coming a mile away, we may as well look and sound good doing it.
I am pretty sure Bosmer are already the noisiest race. Probably comes from having to be quiet so much when hunting that they just can't stop talking when they aren't. :P
Our protest just supports that argument further.
Evidence #1
Zephiran23 wrote: »ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Just a friendly reminder, as we've removed some posts, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.
Does anyone with the authority to post on the forums from ZOS think that it might be time to formulate and release an actual response to this thread? In my opinion, such a response is overdue.
wishlist14 wrote: »For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.
I see wood elves as keepers of the forest. They are masters of camoflage and adept in the crafting and use of poisons.They are nimble, agile folk and are very ressistant to diseases and poisons. Some even delve in the craft of flower magic.
This is my own personal impression of our lil woodelfs.
wishlist14 wrote: »For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »I doubt we'll see a new tree. Frankly, neither the devs nor the players they listen to appear to have the slightest interest in the nuances of stealth and stealthy game play.
You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots
thegreatme wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.
It helps reduce stamina cost while sneaking, but it sadly has nothing to do with actual detection radius, which was always odd to me, but I picked a (formerly) stealthy race + stealthy class + armor with a stealthy passive, so I begrudgingly ignored that fact.
thegreatme wrote: »You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots
My number 1 pet peeve of NPCs is the health reset as soon as they lose you to stealth. I want a playstyle I can be a sneaky guerilla fighter that pops out, damages an NPC, and disappears again until I'm ready to strike, chipping away at them until they're down. Its a tactic that somewhat works only in PvP, unless the person you're fighting heals, but that requires active effort from the person, so healing is fair game. Random 100% health reset because "I guess they're gone now"? Nope. I call BS on that.
Seems like having a small timer, like 30 seconds or something, before a health reset would be a super easy-to-implement combat design choice for that playstyle, or really any other that doesn't want to be constantly battering an enemy to death or running circles to avoid it like a chicken with its head cut off.
HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.
For me, I like the role playing aspect of it. The Breton master thief had to work harder to get where he is than the Bosmer, but his end state is just as emotionally satisfying from a story perspective. Just as some people aren't natural fighters, or dancers, or computer programmers, but they can overcome the deficiency and excel through devotion to the craft. And, in truth, I really don't care what other people are doing unless it's some sort of PvP context and our relative combat power/skill matters. My gameplay is my own personal experience, even in a multiplayer game like ESO, and the experience that others are having doesn't factor much into my awareness except to congratulate them if they're having fun. (With the possible exception of the Master Angler achievement. *That's* impressive, and you give some race a fishing boost, and blood will be spilled!)
But, bottom line, I think if you don't like the "in the end we are all the same" approach, then you'd need the stealth racial passive and nothing else will really fit the bill. Reworking Legerdemain doesn't buy you anything.
wishlist14 wrote: »For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.
Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.
This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.
Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!