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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • thegreatme
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    However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skill-line.

    Thieves skill-line resolves around reducing bounties faster and convincing guards not to arrest you when caught with your pockets full. Not stealth/sneak radius or detection.

    Dark Brotherhood skill-line revolves around getting away with murder with fewer consequences and running away faster after killing someone. Not stealth/sneak radius or detection.

    Legerdmain revolves around higher pickpocket RNG and being able to sell more stolen goods. Not stealth/sneak radius or detection.

    There are currently no alternate "learnable" skill lines for sneaking around having to do with stealth radius or better/worse detection-of-player, except for (1) medium armor passive. Its all on specialized gear set bonuses.



    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    Yes but changing the game between different games in a series is different than changing the rules in a well-established game that has been around for a long time.

    In ESO, exclusive to ESO, not Skyrim or Oblivion or any other TES game, the in-game long established lore is that Bosmer are good at stealth and thievery. They have entire characters, entire questline story arcs, entire cultural identies, in ESO, built around the identity of being proficient thieves. This is a different issue than if they had been stealthy in Skyrim and ESO decided "Nope, Bosmer are no longer stealthy" from the start, it would be a different matter.

    If Bethesda came out with Elder Scrolls 6 and Bosmer were changed from release to something other than thieves, just to make an example, that's a different matter altogether.

    But Bosmer are deeply established inside ESO specifically as having a strong identity as proficient, self-celebrated thieves as a culture. And their previous racial passives, which were long-established in the game for years, supported this identity and playstyle.

    Can they change it any time if they want? Absolutely. We can't stop them, clearly. But it shouldn't be a surprise when people say "what the hell?" at it, because it really just looks like bad creative management.



    anadandy wrote: »
    Where was that concern when making the Bosmer changes? What about all the Bosmer that could sneak through a tight corridor "yesterday" and can no longer do that "today"? They took away a major part of Bosmer gameplay with no explanation other than 'cuz reasons...

    I remember the days I could sneak through an entire public dungeon and not get detected by even (1) enemy except when I wanted to be detected. Those were good days.



    I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    ^^^^^This.

    My ability to detect people in PvP and duels is worse with this passive. Its supposed to be better and make me find people first. Its not, and it doesn't. Tried and tested lots of times. I was better at finding other people when I could remain hidden from them.





    Ratzkifal wrote: »
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    The thing is, that initial boost is what a bog-basic Bosmer gets. Your average, run-of-the-mill Bosmer has better Sneak than the average Nord or Altmer -- but those other races can focus on Sneak and level their Sneak skill to become as good or better. And a Bosmer who specializes in Sneak will start out better, but at the end of a bunch of adventurers as they become a Master Thief, they're not especially better at Sneak than a Nord Master Thief. They just maybe got there a little faster. This was actually one of the cool things about those games -- you could be anyone and do anything, but the lore was embodied in the starting boost you got as you got the ball rolling.

    With that in mind, maybe the solution is to give Bosmer and Khajiit a boost to Legerdemain experience gain, similar to the boost that the different races get with weapon skill lines. Similar to the Sneak skill in previous games and the weapon skill xp boosts in ESO, that boost wouldn't matter anymore once a player has maxed a skill, but it would start them out higher and that would continue to support the lore that Bosmer and Khajiit are better at these things -- while still meeting ZOS's stated goal of making the stealth boosts accessible to more players. (And leveling Legerdemain takes work, it's not just a "I ran dolmens for 5 hours and now I've maxed out the skill!")

    (Optionally, you could add also more stealth boosts to the Legerdemain line, like a passive for reducing stealth detection radius similar to what medium armor provides, and/or a passive for increasing stealth speed. I'd like to see those, but they're secondary.)

    We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.

    Another possibility with an introduction of a sneak tree would be that racial passives are separate but different races get different bonuses for things like sneak, so Bosmer might get a higher sneak/stealth bonus than Orcs, etc.

    Some people would probably complain about it, I'm sure, meaning people who don't play the stealthy races like khajiit and bosmer wanting to know why their Orc can't sneak as well, but it would be a more lore-friendly compromise I would think, and with more optional benefit, so that direct racial passives are more universally applicable, while still allowing people to fulfill their stealth niches in a lore-friendly manner, without being tethered to it whether they want it or not.

    Not sure how hard that would be to implement on the backside/code-level but it seems like a plausible alternative. There might be some other ways to make it so being just-as-good is achievable for the less-naturally-stealthy races through hard work, but I'm not sure exactly how. Maybe bonus differences are bigger at lower levels of that skill line? As was already suggested in a way, but personally I wouldn't mind having some disparities in different skill types between different races. However, not everyone is going to share the feeling on that point. Thoughts?



    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I wonder how we can bring depth to stealth gameplay in the rather limiting way they did the mechanics in eso. Do we need to rethink how stealth works? Do we need to reimagine and rebuild the “mechanics” of stealth?

    This might be going slightly off into "that's never going to happen" territory but I wouldn't mind some kind of parkour mechanics to go along with my stealth :D Assassins Creed anyone? Yes? No?

    Sadly ESO's mechanics aren't built for that playstyle but I can dream :s I'll just be dreaming a long time.
    Edited by thegreatme on June 20, 2019 7:49AM
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  • Ratzkifal
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    thegreatme wrote: »

    This might be going slightly off into "that's never going to happen" territory but I wouldn't mind some kind of parkour mechanics to go along with my stealth :D Assassins Creed anyone? Yes? No?

    Sadly ESO's mechanics aren't built for that playstyle but I can dream :s I'll just be dreaming a long time.

    I can see that happening as a DLC/Chapter's gimmick that's then added to a selection of base game cities. Can't think of a whole lot where running on roofs Assassin's creed style would be possible, so it'll probably be more like Heists. Could be fun though. I always wanted to see more mini-games in ESO to make the world feel more alive.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    No, it worked fine for almost five years. No one questioned why Bosmer were stealthy. No one complained about it. If they weren't interested in stealth, they chose another race, and never gave it a second thought. It was never an issue until someone out of the blue said, "Hey, let's take Bosmer's stealth away! That will be fun! Players will love us for it!" or whatever they said at the time.
    It was either, "I mained a Khajiit and I hate that Bosmer stole our passive," (without understanding the lore) or, "hey, look, Bosmer passives are just copies of other races passives, they must want more unique passives, they'll love it," (without understanding the lore). And then they replaced stealth with that garbage detection puddle of uselessness.

    The stamina buff was great. It made Bosmer a viable stamina race.
    The Stamina regen was a bit of a wash. It was a bit of a buff if you hadn't been seriously invested in regen, but a bit of a nerf if you had been.
    The resistance is what it is; there's no lore, and it's changed from game to game. Mostly a wash, lost disease resistance but gained immunity to the poisoned effect.
    The roll dodge could have been a suitable replacement for the loss of the damage bonus out of stealth if it was what it had been originally (+20% movement). I knew that we'd never see that in live, and guess what we didn't ever see that in live. The penetration bonus after a roll dodge is just goofy.
    Taking away the hiding bonus and replacing it with a detection bonus, well that's why we're here. And for me, it over-rides everything else.

    One great change, several status-quo changes, one goofy change, and one holy freaking cow are you guys morons or what change.
    thegreatme wrote: »
    Legerdmain revolves around higher pickpocket RNG and being able to sell more stolen goods. Not stealth/sneak radius or detection.

    There are currently no alternate "learnable" skill lines for sneaking around having to do with stealth radius or better/worse detection-of-player, except for (1) medium armor passive. Its all on specialized gear set bonuses.
    The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree. Also, having it tied to medium armor is odd, since it penalized having just clothing on, which is traditionally the best thing to sneak in (medium armor would hurt sneaking a little in previous games, while heavy armor would hurt a lot, it was based on the weight of the armor and more weight was bad until you got muffled boots and the perk to reduce the armor weight penalty). I would like to see the first skill in legerdemain look like: "reduce stealth detection radius (hiding bonus) by 1% for each piece of medium armor and 2% for each piece of light armor, and reduce the cost of sneak by 15%" per rank in the first legerdemain passive which is already called (conveniently enough) 'improved hiding.' With CP and/or sets you could get the cost down to 0%.

    The only issue with this is that legerdemain is a PITA to level, and doesn't tick on stealth actions at all. Some points on a successful ambush would help.

    I doubt we'll see a new tree. Frankly, neither the devs nor the players they listen to appear to have the slightest interest in the nuances of stealth and stealthy game play.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • ZOS_RogerJ
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    Just a friendly reminder, as we've removed some posts, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    I just feel the need to take a previous thread of mine and tie it in more directly with ESO, how it was and how it is now.
    Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 TES games with racial skill bonuses (rounded to nearest integer):
    Bosmer 12
    Khajiit 10
    Dunmer 4
    Argonian 3
    Imperial 1
    Redguard -1
    Altmer -1
    Nord -2
    Breton -4
    Orc -8


    To see how I got to this index you can refer back to: Sealthiness index #1 and Stealthiness index #2.
    I also discuss my recommendations and some thoughts about archetypes here.

    As I've said before, I am not an Argonian lady farming pumpkins awesomes. If you've upvoted any of my previous posts on this topic don't feel like you need to upvote this one, I won't be offended. This is in many ways just a continuation of those posts. I will also be maintaining the distinction between 'sneak' and 'stealth' as defined in the first post referenced.

    ESO
    ESO indices assume all passives are maxed.

    The ESO Classic index that existed for the past 5 years was fairly simple:

    1. Khajiit 3 (3m hiding bonus, additional damage while sneaking, 5% bonus to picking pockets)
    2. Bosmer 2 (3m hiding bonus, additional damage while sneaking)
    3. -10. Everyone else 0

    Probably part of the reason why so few people are interested in stealth gameplay is the fact that this was such a limited index and because (apparently) not a lot of thought went into designing stealth gameplay.

    The current ESO index is this:

    1. Khajiit 2 (3m hiding bonus, 5% bonus to picking pockets)
    2. Imperial 1 (3% reduced cost to all things, including moving in hiding) (yes this is weak, but it is still a thing)
    3. -9. Everyone else 0 EXCEPT --
    10. Bosmer -1 (3m warning to all hidden hostile players that there's a hidden Bosmer around)

    The last item is VERY situational, but still it is a detriment no other race has.

    What would it look like with my reccomendations

    In the third post above, I made some recommendations:
    Bosmer:
    Hunter's Eye: replace the detection bonus with the original bonus to sneaking (WITHOUT the damage bonus from sneak attacks). Leave the rest of the passive alone.
    Justification: huh? Where have you been? Re-read all 70-however-many pages of this thread.

    Argonian:
    Resourceful: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
    Argonian Resistance: add poison resistance back (but not immunity to the poisoned effect).
    Justification: Argonians are one of the four most consistently stealthy races, and they should therefor also have a bonus to sneaking. They are currently underpowered anyways. I do not mind that they would have two resistances while Bosmer would have only one, frankly, that's the lore and it's been the case more often than not in the other games. I suspect most other Bosmer players would agree. Strictly speaking, the poison thing isn't particularly relevant to the current discussion, but I'm including it anyways because this is MY post and I can do that.

    Dark Elf:
    Ruination: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
    Justification: While Dark Elves are hardly underpowered now, they are also one of the four most stealthy races and should also have this bonus.

    Orc:
    Any one of their passives: Give the Orcs the detection bonus that was taken from the Bosmer.
    Justification: Orcs are hardly underpowered, actually it's quite the opposite. However, with both EP and AD having stealthy races, it is only proper that DC have an innate counter. Orcs are the obvious choice, anyways, since they are the only race to have demonstrated this ability in the lore, and are also shown in the lore as being hyper-vigilant to the point of paranoia. This would (or could, at any rate) allow for some sneak/counter-sneak gameplay that the current situation does not allow for.

    If these were adopted the ESO index would be:

    1. Khajiit 2 (3m hiding bonus, 5% bonus to picking pockets)
    2. Bosmer 1 (3m hiding bonus)
    3. Argonian 1 (1.5m hiding bonus)
    3. Dunmer 1 (1.5m hiding bonus)
    5. Imperial 1 (3% reduced cost to all things, including moving in hiding)
    6. -9. Everyone else 0 EXCEPT--
    10. Orcs -1 (3m warning to all hidden hostile players that there's a hidden Orc around)

    Even a cursory glance shows that this provides a nearly direct correlation to the index at the top of the page. Are my recommendations perfect? Of course not; but they are a far better reflection of the lore and past games' gameplay than the garbage we have now (so far as stealth gameplay goes).

    edit to remove some redundantly repetitious redundancies at the end of the post.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 20, 2019 4:27PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • Jaraal
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    That's a good point, that Bosmer are in fact now the least stealthy of all races, since they can actually be detected sooner than any other race, thanks to the unwanted side effect of passive detection.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Jaraal
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    If we're going to be the noisiest race, maybe they should put a new Bosmer scout costume in the crown store, replete with jangling bells and dangling cymbals. If the enemy is going to see us coming a mile away, we may as well look and sound good doing it.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    [...]
    Probably part of the reason why so few people are interested in stealth gameplay is the fact that this was such a limited index and because (apparently) not a lot of thought went into designing stealth gameplay.
    [...]

    That's probably because stealth was an after thought in this game. I didn't really play after the beta was over and only played one week in the beta. I know that Tamriel unlimited introduced the whole justice interaction and stealing off shelves and such, so that sounds to me like stealth gameplay before Tamriel Unlimited (aka in the original design) was only for ganking in PvP. It's really no wonder there wasn't much else put into that.

    Off the top of my hat I can already think of an interesting mechanic that could be added in a whole lot of areas of the game. Bushes to hide in! Think of them like the baskets from the Thieves' guild and Dark Brotherhood but you are actually able to move in them and you are only visible to people inside. In strategic locations of Cyrodiil and the overworld, this could add a whole lot more fun to stealth gameplay. Stealth related passives could interact with them as well perhaps. "After leaving a place of concealment gain 10% movement speed." "After leaving a place of concealment, reduce the stamina cost of your next attack by 80%". You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots but check those spots instead. That way you could even have stealth combat, which is nothing ESO currently has.

    Unfortunately as long as ESO's stealth system is lacking depth though, that is all only speculation and nothing we can expect them to develop just because of the issues we are having.

    So to get back on topic, I want our old stealth radius back AS RACIALS AND NOT ITEM SETS!
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    If we're going to be the noisiest race, maybe they should put a new Bosmer scout costume in the crown store, replete with jangling bells and dangling cymbals. If the enemy is going to see us coming a mile away, we may as well look and sound good doing it.

    I am pretty sure Bosmer are already the noisiest race. Probably comes from having to be quiet so much when hunting that they just can't stop talking when they aren't. :P
    Our protest just supports that argument further.

    Evidence #1
    latest?cb=20181009172127
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    By Azura!
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • Jaraal
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    Since Bosmer now has a negative stealth rating, they could add the old radius reduction to the current Hunter's Eye, and Bosmer would still be behind Khajiit in PvP, because of the offsetting passive detection mechanic. But Bosmer would be back to where they were before in PvE, because there would be no hidden enemies to detect their presence early. So, back to normal in PvE, but behind Khajiit in PvP..... just by adding back the stealth radius reduction, minus the original 10% damage bonus.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Night_Wolf2112
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    BlueRaven wrote: »

    That had nothing to do with comprehending but rather testing it, nice try.

    What? Lol, apparently we collectively have reading comprehension yet we know exactly what the passives mean.
    Yeah, the problem is always with other people. 🙄
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    Exactly. The strength of the Elder Scrolls IP is that it has a (mostly) consistent lore that travels from game to game. A broad conflict with the lore (like the passive changes to wood elves and argonians) stands out like a sore thumb.

    Elder scrolls is a long form story. The races are the major players and the passives are their personalities.

    The lore has to stay consistent or the whole narrative feels shallow.


    That’s called believing word of mouth without checking yourself. It’s like saying it’s cloudy outside and the other person believes you without actually looking outside. Zos plainly wrote detect. So anyone is going to think they meant detect.

    “Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5%” - but I’m sure you all knowing geniuses some how deciphered that automatically.

    Why in the H-E-(double hockey sticks) would you put points Into a armor skill line that makes it harder for you to see people?

    That Reading Comprehension thing is a real head scratcher!
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  • Zephiran23
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    ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »
    Just a friendly reminder, as we've removed some posts, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.

    Does anyone with the authority to post on the forums from ZOS think that it might be time to formulate and release an actual response to this thread? In my opinion, such a response is overdue.
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  • Sylvermynx
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    Love parkour in the book series by April White. Not much into it in game - kind of one of those "arcade" things I never could do when I was young, much less now.
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  • Koronach
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    If we're going to be the noisiest race, maybe they should put a new Bosmer scout costume in the crown store, replete with jangling bells and dangling cymbals. If the enemy is going to see us coming a mile away, we may as well look and sound good doing it.

    I am pretty sure Bosmer are already the noisiest race. Probably comes from having to be quiet so much when hunting that they just can't stop talking when they aren't. :P
    Our protest just supports that argument further.

    Evidence #1
    latest?cb=20181009172127

    By the Hist, not him! Roll a 5 or higher to resist his annoying personality, anything lower results in suicide. *Rolls a 1*
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  • Sylvermynx
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    Hooboy. I'm glad I'm not the only one who had no use for him. Yeah I get it's a major part of Oblivion.... but it was never a major thing for me. I hate arenas.... and the "fan" was SO annoying....
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  • ArenGesus
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    You guys sure stealth is your thing? Racial passive should really be tenacity - 84 pages and still going strong. Kudos for the effort.
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  • Ogou
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    ArenGesus wrote: »
    You guys sure stealth is your thing? Racial passive should really be tenacity - 84 pages and still going strong. Kudos for the effort.

    The stealth part is actually getting so far without getting the thread closed.
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  • Taloros
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    m5qh-1-1ab4.jpg
    Edited by Taloros on June 21, 2019 6:10AM
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  • Uryel
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    Taloros wrote: »
    m5qh-1-1ab4.jpg

    Of course they are. Post-nerf Bosmers wouldn't hide, they'd be telling them to stop right there, those criminal scums !
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  • BlueRaven
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    Taloros wrote: »
    m5qh-1-1ab4.jpg

    I am keeping that one for my collection. 😆
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  • Ratzkifal
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    Zephiran23 wrote: »
    ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »
    Just a friendly reminder, as we've removed some posts, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.

    Does anyone with the authority to post on the forums from ZOS think that it might be time to formulate and release an actual response to this thread? In my opinion, such a response is overdue.

    I mean, I'd already be happy if @ZOS_GinaBruno came in here and told us that she can't give an answer that represents the official stance on the matter. At least acknowledge they heard our concerns and are at least thinking about it internally.

    Talking about better communication, if there is internal dispute, how about someone from ZOS brings us the counter arguments that surely must exist on the developer side of things. Us discussing them here, could help move forward the internal discussion and get this over with in U23 already!

    For that, I'd prefer if things are being kept annonymous so no ZOS employee is named and the messenger from ZOS be treated as such - a messenger. After all, we want to set a good example to others and not make our passion for the subject boil over and undermine future communication plans. No need to be scared of confrontation. Bosmer are very friendly.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • wishlist14
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    For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

    I see wood elves as keepers of the forest. They are masters of camoflage and adept in the crafting and use of poisons.They are nimble, agile folk and are very ressistant to diseases and poisons. Some even delve in the craft of flower magic.
    This is my own personal impression of our lil woodelfs.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    wishlist14 wrote: »
    For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

    I see wood elves as keepers of the forest. They are masters of camoflage and adept in the crafting and use of poisons.They are nimble, agile folk and are very ressistant to diseases and poisons. Some even delve in the craft of flower magic.
    This is my own personal impression of our lil woodelfs.

    And marksmanship. Don't forget the marksmanship. Khajiit don't have a signature weapon type like that, because unarmed is/used to be their forte.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Jaraal
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    wishlist14 wrote: »
    For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

    Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

    This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

    Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended! :)

    ZQ1Z6T0.png


    Edited by Jaraal on June 21, 2019 8:19PM
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • thegreatme
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    The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.

    It helps reduce stamina cost while sneaking, but it sadly has nothing to do with actual detection radius, which was always odd to me, but I picked a (formerly) stealthy race + stealthy class + armor with a stealthy passive, so I begrudgingly ignored that fact.
    I doubt we'll see a new tree. Frankly, neither the devs nor the players they listen to appear to have the slightest interest in the nuances of stealth and stealthy game play.

    Its a shame really because I always found stealth gameplay to be more fun in any game, albeit there are definitely games that did it better than TES ever has. Unfortunately MMO style games never seem to have combat or gameplay in general that strongly supports this playstyle, it more caters to the hard-chargers and zerg-groups that all pile in after a target and nix stealth play in favor of buffs and battering enemies with higher-damage skills.

    Even in Cyro, the most I've seen out of stealth is to slink away from larger groups, or camp inside a newly taken enemy base to re-take it as soon as the zerg moves on to the next one. To me it just makes it all rather bland compared to what it could be, but the system really just favors flipping keeps for points over and over. Bleh.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots

    My number 1 pet peeve of NPCs is the health reset as soon as they lose you to stealth. I want a playstyle I can be a sneaky guerilla fighter that pops out, damages an NPC, and disappears again until I'm ready to strike, chipping away at them until they're down. Its a tactic that somewhat works only in PvP, unless the person you're fighting heals, but that requires active effort from the person, so healing is fair game. Random 100% health reset because "I guess they're gone now"? Nope. I call BS on that.

    Seems like having a small timer, like 30 seconds or something, before a health reset would be a super easy-to-implement combat design choice for that playstyle, or really any other that doesn't want to be constantly battering an enemy to death or running circles to avoid it like a chicken with its head cut off.
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  • Jaraal
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    thegreatme wrote: »
    The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.

    It helps reduce stamina cost while sneaking, but it sadly has nothing to do with actual detection radius, which was always odd to me, but I picked a (formerly) stealthy race + stealthy class + armor with a stealthy passive, so I begrudgingly ignored that fact.

    I have six max level thieves, and not once have I ever put a skill point into that passive. The medium armor passive Improved Sneak "Reduces the cost of Sneak by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Reduces the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped."

    So, you get a built in cost reduction with the radius reduction, and the Legerdemain version is redundant, unless, for some reason, you would rather sneak in light or heavy armor, without the radius reduction.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    thegreatme wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots

    My number 1 pet peeve of NPCs is the health reset as soon as they lose you to stealth. I want a playstyle I can be a sneaky guerilla fighter that pops out, damages an NPC, and disappears again until I'm ready to strike, chipping away at them until they're down. Its a tactic that somewhat works only in PvP, unless the person you're fighting heals, but that requires active effort from the person, so healing is fair game. Random 100% health reset because "I guess they're gone now"? Nope. I call BS on that.

    Seems like having a small timer, like 30 seconds or something, before a health reset would be a super easy-to-implement combat design choice for that playstyle, or really any other that doesn't want to be constantly battering an enemy to death or running circles to avoid it like a chicken with its head cut off.

    It's funny if you think about it. Players are suffering from being stuck in combat, but NPCs can decide to not be in combat anymore at will even when they absolutely should be.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Kalle_Demos
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.

    For me, I like the role playing aspect of it. The Breton master thief had to work harder to get where he is than the Bosmer, but his end state is just as emotionally satisfying from a story perspective. Just as some people aren't natural fighters, or dancers, or computer programmers, but they can overcome the deficiency and excel through devotion to the craft. And, in truth, I really don't care what other people are doing unless it's some sort of PvP context and our relative combat power/skill matters. My gameplay is my own personal experience, even in a multiplayer game like ESO, and the experience that others are having doesn't factor much into my awareness except to congratulate them if they're having fun. (With the possible exception of the Master Angler achievement. *That's* impressive, and you give some race a fishing boost, and blood will be spilled!)

    But, bottom line, I think if you don't like the "in the end we are all the same" approach, then you'd need the stealth racial passive and nothing else will really fit the bill. Reworking Legerdemain doesn't buy you anything.

    The role playing aspect is the essence of Elder Scrolls. Sure we have our archetypes and in-world norms and stereotypes like the Altmer Mage and Bosmer thief but, as ZOS likes to preach and not practice: You can play however you want. And in playing the games we meet many characters that do not follow strict structures and learn that things are more complicated beneath the surface everywhere. For example in Skyrim where Magic in general is feared we learn not all Nord leaders are stupid and realize the benefit of having a Magical expert around.

    Anyway, in a role playing game I don't think all players should be the same either. We should all have the same 'cap' but bring different things to the table. Diversity. The races and classes should all be different too with benefits and drawbacks. Homogenization makes for a boring game. If I wanted to play a FPS where everyone is a clone I'd go pay for it. I'm all for everyone having access to Stealth but some races ARE better at it than others and that should be reflected in gameplay. The ROLE in role play has to mean something right? What's the point if everyone can do it?

    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
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  • Ogou
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    wishlist14 wrote: »
    For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

    Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

    This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

    Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended! :)

    ZQ1Z6T0.png


    I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.
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