Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

TokenIntellect

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

MartiniDaniels

TokenIntellect wrote: »

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

I think they will fix this when (if) they have good occasion for this, as part of something bigger. But making it as separate change will lead to 10 another open letters on next day.. so I think we may only hope for something like re-balance of stealth, or re-balance of CP, and under those circumstances ZOS can quietly adjust racial passives as part of the global changes and fix this lore breach.

Ratzkifal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

I think they will fix this when (if) they have good occasion for this, as part of something bigger. But making it as separate change will lead to 10 another open letters on next day.. so I think we may only hope for something like re-balance of stealth, or re-balance of CP, and under those circumstances ZOS can quietly adjust racial passives as part of the global changes and fix this lore breach.

I think you are right and that is really frustrating for me. Not that I couldn't stand other people being right But it means that ZOS is okay with leaving things in a broken state for as long as there is no higher purpose behind it. They said they would fix racials. They did (according to themselves) and the next time they'll look at racials again will be in a few years it seems. Despite there being reasons to look at it again right now, even if it's just for 2 seconds.

thegreatme

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think you are right and that is really frustrating for me. Not that I couldn't stand other people being right But it means that ZOS is okay with leaving things in a broken state for as long as there is no higher purpose behind it. They said they would fix racials. They did (according to themselves) and the next time they'll look at racials again will be in a few years it seems. Despite there being reasons to look at it again right now, even if it's just for 2 seconds.

I mean considering the Big Gripe right now is "you canceled an event over a queue that's been broken for five years instead of fixing it before the event?!", ZoS isn't exactly known for timely fixes...

And I'm not sure that's even ZoS, specifically. I think its just the World of Convenience and Big Corporate that we live in becoming the standard practice instead of the unsuccessful exception that used to be laughed at.

I'm not really convinced ZoS doesn't know its broken. I'm not convinced nobody at ZoS wants to fix it either. I just think whoever calls the shots doesn't deem it priority enough to see it done because its not monetarily expedient.

"Niche" playstyles and new fixes to old problems people have learned to tolerate don't sell product. New content does. So...

thegreatme

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Sign me up to help

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

And yet, look at what all of this has done for PvP. Lag is getting worse, people are saving skill points on Hunter's Eye, PvPers are quitting faster than Bosmer players ever have, and they are cancelling some of their favorite events because they would rather work on new content and crown store goodies than fix the chronic and persistent gameplay problems.

Everything is on a downward spiral, not just the inept racial changes.

BlueRaven

Work in progress.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

I was kind of joking. My own enjoyment is severely challenged, so I get where you're coming from. All of my 50+ characters are Bosmer. I play them as stealthy, which means I have to use substandard sets instead of the end-game sets people seem to expect high level chars to have. My subscription has lapsed now, and my wallet is closed. Until this is fixed, I will play now and again for free, and come here to complain. Page 100, page 1000, page 1000000 I don't care. I said I will never accept this garbage change, and that's what I am going to do.

Also, I like your scroll. Very apt.

thegreatme

BlueRaven wrote: »

Work in progress.

Oh are we doing memes already? I got one


(if you don't get it, go watch Aggretsuko)

Taloros

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Can and will! :-)

I'm seriously puzzled as to how that other thread is taken, uhm, seriously by some. Say anything pvp related, and some people will take the opposite stance, no matter what.

Ratzkifal

I made one as well. Hope it's familly friendly enough for the forums. They have a softer rating than the actual game after all. We should save the rest for page 100 though.

Kalle_Demos

Jaraal wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Does this thread really have over 2600 entries for such a trifle? Oh geez. Just give em the passive or whatever they are asking for.

Certainly not trifling to the hundreds of thousands of players who started the game with the intent of playing stealthy wood elf characters, as they had in the other TES games. Or to those who leveled all the guilds and skill trees to become proficient thieves and have played that way for almost five years. And then to have your playstyle taken away and told, "Here, have this useless passive that never works in PvE and is suspect in PvP.... have fun!"

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

This is not a small issue as some trolls would like to suggest. It's an entire gameplay style that has existed in this series for years. Elder Scrolls Online is now, after five years, the only modern Elder Scrolls game without a substantive Bosmer stealth mechanic in contrast to all lore and gameplay in recent years.

ESO provides an entire array of optional gameplay styles, modes, choices, etc. Not everyone PVPs, Quests, dives into Dungeons or follows the rigid DPS/Tank/Heal system. Players have the option to completely ignore all of that and it is a good thing. ESO is a different animal than the ES single player games that allow for greater player choice but ESO still managed to accommodate a large swath of players used to a different setting.

The Sundering of Bosmer Stealth play completely destroys a style of play that many ES players have enjoyed for years. And why? We have yet to receive a comprehensive explanation as to why this was in any way necessary or in line (they weren't) with ZOS' goals regarding Racial Balance.

Uryel

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

I was kind of joking. My own enjoyment is severely challenged, so I get where you're coming from. All of my 50+ characters are Bosmer. I play them as stealthy, which means I have to use substandard sets instead of the end-game sets people seem to expect high level chars to have. My subscription has lapsed now, and my wallet is closed. Until this is fixed, I will play now and again for free, and come here to complain. Page 100, page 1000, page 1000000 I don't care. I said I will never accept this garbage change, and that's what I am going to do.

Also, I like your scroll. Very apt.

Same here, fellows. The racial "balance" was a hard hit, the "Nightblade top assassination skill becomes a tanking one" was silly AF, the Rimmen necropolis public dungeon being completely bare made me realise how lazy ZOS had become (or had they always been ?), and the constant influx of new bugs that break things that had been functioning for years, the lack of communication about ongoing issues such as the stam necromancers being extremly bugged made me angry. And now they "fixed" some PvP issue with the Goliath form by nerfing one hand and shield ?! What kind of f*cked up logic is that ?

If their goal is to reduce their customer base to solve the server issue by itself, they're doing a good job. I'd even say they are killing it.

I get my fill of stealth gameplay by playing Banshee in Warframe. She makes every gunshot entirely silent, she has a "Fus ro dah" kind of ability, so I can remain undetected while I snipe enemies from afar, push interlopers off cliffs, and run like hell when I'm discovered because she's weak AF. And I'm not spending a dime on ESO anymore, not until they at least fix the clusterf*ck of bugs they introduced with Elsweyr. I can live without my stealth if I must, it's annoying AF but my character is still amazing. However, I won't pay folks who are too lazy to itemise a public dungeon or make their latest class, one of the top selling points of their last installment, functional instead of bug-ridden.

Jaraal

Uryel wrote: »

And now they "fixed" some PvP issue with the Goliath form by nerfing one hand and shield ?!

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Crazy, their propensity for swatting flies with a sledgehammer! It's never a subtle tweak, it's always a major nerf of something. Like instead of making small adjustments to Bosmer stealth, let's just scrap the whole thing....established lore and quest dialogues and all, and make up some crazy new thing out of left field that .04% of the player base will like.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall (or a Khajiit hiding in plain sight) at some of these developer meetings to see how they come up with some of this stuff! It's hard to imagine an actual quorum of people agreeing to some of these crazy ideas. It seems more like one developer at a desk making stuff up off the top of their head and pushing it to live, while everybody else is at home, asleep.

Ratzkifal

Good news everyone. The next update will have one dungeon that's related to Bosmer. Wouldn't it be fitting to fix Bosmer stealth along with the update that's partially related to them?

Neighboring Elsweyr, Grahtwood’s Elden Root tree is threatened by a deathly corruption that originates from the nearby jungles of Tenmar and the Lair of Maarselok. Grahtwood’s protectors have tried and failed to destroy the Dragon at the center of the blight, so a truce has been called between the forest spirit Selene and her captor, the warlock Carindon. Together, and with your help, they must attempt to save the Elden Root tree before the corruption can spread.

Blinkin8r

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

BlueRaven

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

No.

TokenIntellect

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

How do you figure?

Cundu_Ertur

haelene wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

No, these changes are the exact opposite of lore friendly. They are lore hostile. Especially the loss of being able to sneak exceptionally well to get an ability that is best used for a guard. Bosmer are not guards, have never been guards. They are supposed to be one of the two best races at thievery, and now they are dead last.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Good news everyone. The next update will have one dungeon that's related to Bosmer. Wouldn't it be fitting to fix Bosmer stealth along with the update that's partially related to them?

Neighboring Elsweyr, Grahtwood’s Elden Root tree is threatened by a deathly corruption that originates from the nearby jungles of Tenmar and the Lair of Maarselok. Grahtwood’s protectors have tried and failed to destroy the Dragon at the center of the blight, so a truce has been called between the forest spirit Selene and her captor, the warlock Carindon. Together, and with your help, they must attempt to save the Elden Root tree before the corruption can spread.

Update 23 would be an excellent opportunity for the devs to finally admit that they got things completely wrong. It's not like we don't already know.

haelene

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

[snip]

I mean, if you're looking at it in terms of keeping the thread active, sure!

That said, not really sure that's the best way to get our point across in a meaningful way. (Not like I really believe ZOS is listening anyways, but a girl can dream.)

[edited to remove quote]

Ratzkifal

I feel like the description of what we'll be doing in the Lair of Maarselok is a good metaphor for our thread.
Elden Root (meaning the Bosmer) are threatened by a deathly corruption (detection) that originates from a dragon (Zenimax). Now we must attempt to save the Bosmer together before the corruption can spread.

Uryel

Jaraal wrote: »

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Exactly... And this is one of the reasons I hate PvP, and even more so, I have a strong, burning hatred for PvP whiners. I hate them with so much passion I could smack them with that proverbial sledgehammer in the face. Repeatedly, just to be sure.

[snip] They are always going about "nerf this" or "nerf that", but when do they ever ask for something to get better ? Oh, yes, when they play it. You'll never find a PvP whiner say "in all fairness, X should be made stronger. It really feels unfair when I break through their defense so easily". You never see that because they want to win, not a fair game. And that's made even worse by the absolute lack of creativity. Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Just a few minutes ago, I noticed a thread made by someone who KNOWS that sorcerers who use pets in PvP use them to hide behind them, that they make smart use of strategic positionning... And request the ability to not target pets but the sorcerer directly. They want the game to be skilled in their stead.

"There is no counter to Bosmer snipers, nerf them !"... Well, sucker, there is no counter to snipers IRL either, if they snipe you, you're dead. That's called "War", the only difference is that you chose to participate in that one instead of being an innocent bystander. Also, there was a counter, it was called "being a dragon knight", before that was nerfed too. And another perfect counter, that would still work today, and it's called "teamplay". Just like you do in real life to counter a sniper : you send someone to backstab them.

[snip] If you can't take it kindly to losing, then play WITH people instead of AGAINST people. Simple as that.

They should consider themselves lucky I'm not the person in charge of that game. If I were, next DLC would be called "the three banners war : the end". Once the storyline ties up, Cyrodiil would become a normal PvE zone. No more war, no more battlefield. I think the story would roughly be that the alliances agreed to a truce to push Molag Bal's forces out of the Imperial City. No more combat in Cyrodiil, and in the Imperial City, it's everyone against the daedras. Maybe even have some form of ranking, the alliance that scores the most gives higher chances, in the long run, for their team to ultimately rule the empire. After all, the people will cheer for the heroes who freed them from daedras, right ? And that could be another DLC.

And of course, PvP would disapear from the game. Good riddance. Duels would be outlawed. There MIGHT be one arena for fighting, but that's it. If I'm in a good mood.

[snip] I've got ideas to sell 2 more DLCs AND rid the game of PvP entirely, thus removing all questions regarding the so called "balance" that no PvPers actually wants because it would reduce their chances to win. What do you say about that, @ZOS_MattFiror ? I suppose your answer would be something along the line of "nerf Nightblades", anyway.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

BlueRaven

Uryel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Exactly... And this is one of the reasons I hate PvP, and even more so, I have a strong, burning hatred for PvP whiners. I hate them with so much passion I could smack them with that proverbial sledgehammer in the face. Repeatedly, just to be sure.

[snip] They are always going about "nerf this" or "nerf that", but when do they ever ask for something to get better ? Oh, yes, when they play it. You'll never find a PvP whiner say "in all fairness, X should be made stronger. It really feels unfair when I break through their defense so easily". You never see that because they want to win, not a fair game. And that's made even worse by the absolute lack of creativity. Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Just a few minutes ago, I noticed a thread made by someone who KNOWS that sorcerers who use pets in PvP use them to hide behind them, that they make smart use of strategic positionning... And request the ability to not target pets but the sorcerer directly. They want the game to be skilled in their stead.

"There is no counter to Bosmer snipers, nerf them !"... Well, sucker, there is no counter to snipers IRL either, if they snipe you, you're dead. That's called "War", the only difference is that you chose to participate in that one instead of being an innocent bystander. Also, there was a counter, it was called "being a dragon knight", before that was nerfed too. And another perfect counter, that would still work today, and it's called "teamplay". Just like you do in real life to counter a sniper : you send someone to backstab them.

[snip] If you can't take it kindly to losing, then play WITH people instead of AGAINST people. Simple as that.

They should consider themselves lucky I'm not the person in charge of that game. If I were, next DLC would be called "the three banners war : the end". Once the storyline ties up, Cyrodiil would become a normal PvE zone. No more war, no more battlefield. I think the story would roughly be that the alliances agreed to a truce to push Molag Bal's forces out of the Imperial City. No more combat in Cyrodiil, and in the Imperial City, it's everyone against the daedras. Maybe even have some form of ranking, the alliance that scores the most gives higher chances, in the long run, for their team to ultimately rule the empire. After all, the people will cheer for the heroes who freed them from daedras, right ? And that could be another DLC.

And of course, PvP would disapear from the game. Good riddance. Duels would be outlawed. There MIGHT be one arena for fighting, but that's it. If I'm in a good mood.

[snip] I've got ideas to sell 2 more DLCs AND rid the game of PvP entirely, thus removing all questions regarding the so called "balance" that no PvPers actually wants because it would reduce their chances to win. What do you say about that, @ZOS_MattFiror ? I suppose your answer would be something along the line of "nerf Nightblades", anyway.

So true!

I can't say I thought up this phrase but I think about it every time a PvP person asks for nerfs;

Scissors says; "Nerf rock, paper is fine."

[edited to remove quote]

BigBragg

Some nerfs come about due to PvP, but saying that all or most would be a flat out lie. Read through the dev notes on PTS and patch notes. The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I also do know why the forums are so divisive. Seriously stop trying to force a wedge between PvP and PvE. Many players do and enjoy both. Even if they don't, they are still playing and enjoying the same game. Let them have that, even when it is passionate about things they don't like. People speak up when they care.

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that get ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

Sylvermynx

@Uryel - bravo! Very well stated.

HowTaoBrownCow

BigBragg wrote: »

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that ge ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

Of course changes are the devs' call. And, when they make changes that the players like or don't like, the devs want the players to give feedback so that they can make the game more enjoyable. Making the game more enjoyable results in pride in their own work, and increased revenue for the company, and salaries and bonuses and more rewarding work for the devs.

The forum is part of that process. So, when the devs remove a thing that's fundamental to many players' enjoyment of their characters, there's not a doubt in my mind that the devs would rather hear about it -- for as long as it continues to bother the players -- than they would like to have players give up, cancel subscriptions, and/or walk away from the game. If we don't continue to express our unhappiness, they'll assume that we've gotten used to it and we no longer care. Or, alternatively, they'll stop hearing about it because we've left the game. I don't think that either of those outcomes are desirable.

As for the wedge... ZOS has always had a difficult job with this game, because the needs and desires of PvE players are very different than the needs and desires of PvP/trial players. (I group PvP and trials together because I think there's a similar level of competition, freneticism, and focus on fine-tuning and min-maxing that's very different from your average PvE quester.) I think that from the beginning they've done an impressive job at managing to provide both -- and many players enjoy both -- but there have been many choices they've made that suggest PvP/trials might be more of a priority for them. I assume that its because those players are more competitive and the competition increases engagement and increased engagement increases revenue -- but that's just a guess and I'm hardly an expert. Regardless, it's not "forcing a wedge" to note that the needs and desires of the two camps are different.

This whole thread is just to point out to ZOS that they're harming the enthusiasm of a chunk of their PvE base, and that it might be worth it to them to find another solution to whatever the Bosmer stealth nerf was supposed to solve. The folks for whom PvE is the primary focus are more lore-driven, and faithfulness to the lore and to what it lends to our characters is important to us. I would hope that this makes it important to ZOS also, and that ultimately they'll listen.

thegreatme

Uryel wrote: »

Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Yeah, its always fun when I have someone telling me my custom build is "trash" because its not out of an Alcast endgame guide. When I almost never touch Trials anyway

Works just fine for me to comfortably solo most PvE content, including clearing Pub Dungeon "Group Events" no problem by myself, so I don't see the issue with it.

Even better when they mock me for running a Bosmer sneak-thief because their khajiit is the "master sneak race" now. Nevermind I mained a Bosmer sneak-thief when that wasn't the case.

Jaraal

BigBragg wrote: »

Some nerfs come about due to PvP, but saying that all or most would be a flat out lie. Read through the dev notes on PTS and patch notes. The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I also do know why the forums are so divisive. Seriously stop trying to force a wedge between PvP and PvE. Many players do and enjoy both. Even if they don't, they are still playing and enjoying the same game. Let them have that, even when it is passionate about things they don't like. People speak up when they care.

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that get ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

The reason that the Stealthy passive was removed from Bosmer and Khajiit in the first place was the 10% damage bonus from stealth. They could have just removed the damage modifier and called it good, but they knew PvPers would call it a flat out nerf. So they gave Khajiit the stealth back and the ability to set stack to virtual invisibility..... and gave Bosmer a big, steaming pile of who knows what.