PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Savos_Saren

Hey @ZOS_Gilliam

Can you give Bosmer the 625 Stam/Mag that you just gave Dunmer and then give Dunmer the 1500 Physical/Spell penetration? That way, Bosmer get a constant small increase in resources and Dunmer get a constant small boost to penetration.

Steelshiv

StopDropAndBear wrote: »

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

"On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability."Race Change Notes.

"Well known and powerful spellcasters." Yet they will be the weakest Magicka race if these updates are pushed through. I swear this update is a joke. Or a mistake.

Savos_Saren

Steelshiv wrote: »

StopDropAndBear wrote: »

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

"On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability."Race Change Notes.

"Well known and powerful spellcasters." Yet they will be the weakest Magicka race if these updates are pushed through. I swear this update is a joke. Or a mistake.

You gotta watch out, though. Historically speaking- Altmer are very, very weak to magic attacks (they actually receive negative attribute points). So, perhaps take the low resource regen and 5% damage reduction while casting (totally opposite of the lore).

MLGProPlayer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Altmer is officially useless as an endgame magicka race. ZOS, you do *** realize that they were already parsing behind Breton and Khajiit before these changes, right? This is because Breton can use berserker enchant while Altmer can't, and couldn't even before these changes. Here is the math, since you obviously did no actual number crunching yourselves...

Altmer were already behind Breton and Khajiit in testing before these nerfs.

So let's compare the 2 races using basic math:

Spell damage:

Here is where ZOS' balance approach is flawed. They are looking at values on paper, outside of any actual context.

Altmer: +258 spell damage
Breton: +0 spell damage

Looking at this, someone not familiar with the game would assume that Altmer deal more damage. This is of course false. Anybody who actually plays the game would know that sustain is a factor in determining DPS too. Let's compare sustain now.

Sustain:

Breton: +7% cost reduction, +100 magicka recovery
Altmer: +192 magicka recovery (575/6)

Effective magicka recovery:

Breton: +500 (assuming that the average cost of a skill is 3k, they save ~200 magicka every second, or 400 every 2 seconds + 100 from their flat recovery bonus)
Altmer: +192

As you can see, there is a huge descrepency between the two when it comes to sustain. What does this mean? It means that Altmer need to slot a recovery glyph in order to sustain endgame fights. Bretons, on the other hand, don't need to slot a recovery glyph since they have that sustain built into their passives. This means they can slot a Berserker glyph instead. Now let's look at their spell damage numbers again.

Spell damage (again):

Altmer: +258
Breton: +452

All of a sudden, Breton has +200 spell damage on Altmer. Now, this obviously isn't a flat +200 buff since the recovery glyph deals 4k magicka damage too, but it's still enough of a difference to put Breton slightly on top (which was fine).

Just so we're sure ZOS sees this:

@ZOS_Gilliam
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

If your internal testing showed wildly different results, I'd love to see it.

dodgehopper_ESO

Hiddle wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

But to slam a race that is only good at support, take a player like me that has 10 dps argonians and the only thing I have going for them is the resource return. So whatever I get from that, has to be as worthwhile as every DPS bonus combined on another race and it still makes them laughable to show up with in an end game raid as DPS.

Not to be rude, but seeing that you have 15 argonians, one might say you are biased towards this race.

I do have argonians, and play both PVE and PVP, and I can state how overperforming the race is compared to many other races currently on live. The first changes still made the Argonian an interesting choice to perform tank roles, but allowed others races to compete on the same footing. However, I do think argonians deserved some form of DPS buff, but not reverting their resource buff.

He may be biased but he also has a lot of experience playing them. I'm also a big proponent of Argonians as well. I was one of the people really pushing them to try to fix the race early on and all along. The potion buff was not one of the suggestions I would have made or did make. In all honesty I think Argonian passives should look a little like what Khajiit passives are to fit their theme. The in game books you read going back at least as far as Morrowind recognize that Argonians are excellent in stealth, excellent as guerrilla soldiers, excellent sappers, spearmen and excellent spies. They are known for their Alchemy as well as their tendency to practice/favor the restoration magic school (which would be the favored school of the Nords and Redguards as well by the way, culturally). Argonians are also known for having a bit of healing factor Hist-skin going on to self regenerate. This is the Argonians that I knew. All of those descriptors sounds a lot more like what Khajiit are getting this patch. The big issue is that the Potion Chugging passive fundamentally changed the way Argonian was played, but as someone who likes the Saxhleel I have experienced at least 3 major changes to Argonians since release.


The common belief that Argonian players are married to the Chug passive isn't necessarily true. I like it and I certainly use it because it is the best thing about being an Argonian. If the race got something more balanced but good to replace it I think we could all live with that as long as it actually kept with the theme. The real issue here though is that Chug should not be a bad passive. It has an actual in game financial cost. Other races don't deal with a financial cost to take advantage of their most useful passive. This is why I was against this concept all along. If you were to 'balance' this passive it needs to be OP. If you unbalance it you essentially make Argonians inferior to all other races as they lose out on a mass of gold/resources that they would have otherwise earned. It is true in challenge content that everyone uses potions and food. The question though is when you are farming resources or doing easier content do you use as many potions? I find it very annoying when people don't realize this when they are talking about the balance of this passive.

dodgehopper_ESO

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

StopDropAndBear wrote: »

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

"On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability."Race Change Notes.

"Well known and powerful spellcasters." Yet they will be the weakest Magicka race if these updates are pushed through. I swear this update is a joke. Or a mistake.

You gotta watch out, though. Historically speaking- Altmer are very, very weak to magic attacks (they actually receive negative attribute points). So, perhaps take the low resource regen and 5% damage reduction while casting (totally opposite of the lore).

That isn't entirely accurate. As I recall they were resilient toward what we might call 'untyped magic' damage versus elemental damage. Altmer were also at various points resilient toward poison and disease.

Kulvar

I used UESP build tool to make Nightblade healer/magDD comparison of Argonian and Khajiit 4.3.2 racials.
I admit it, I may have made a mistake somewhere adjusting the values to the 4.3.2 patch even after checking regularly. But here is what I found:

Healer role : Khajiit do 0.1% more healing than Argonian.
MagDD role: Khajiit do 6.5% more damage and have 3.3% more magicka recovery.

Switching Argonian enchants into potion cooldown reduction only up magicka recovery to Khajiit level, with Khajiit still tinily above Argonian, but losing three Spell Damage enchant destroyed their damage with Khajiit doing 22% more damage.

So Argonian can't even shine in healing compared to Khajiit.
What about a nerf or rework to Resourceful so something else could be given to Argonian to make them exists in PvE ? Could be appreciated. People may even stop complaining about how Resourceful is too strong in PvP after the rework.

dodgehopper_ESO

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Breton
Spell Attunement: The Spell Resistance granted by this effect will now be doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.

I like it.

Imperial
Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of Block and Bash by 5%.

This is definitely a step in the right direction. However, I still think it needs to be pushed further, either by reducing the cooldown to 2 seconds or increasing the restoration to 830 Health, Magicka, and Stamina with a 5 second cooldown.

In either case, it makes it so that - assuming 100% uptime of direct damage every 2 or 5 seconds - there is ~166 recovery of the three stats. That is useful, while I'm not sure that 333 H/M/S ever 5 seconds necessarily is (although, again, this is far superior to the previous iteration).

Khajiit
Lunar Blessings: Increased the Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina bonuses to 825 from 750.
Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m.
Robustness: Increased the Magicka and Stamina Recovery bonuses to 85 from 75.

Still the absolute wrong direction for Khajiit. Khajiit are NOT magical.

High Elf
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

Totally useless. What a completely crap change.

I think you're missing the point of the current racial passive alterations. Actually I think a large portion of people with general complaints about the changes are missing the point. One reason they are doing this is to slow down the skyrocketing power creep where Race is a factor. Stacking percentages can get out of control between sets, glyphs, potions, foods/drinks, CP, and other skill passives. The second issue this deals with is the way at end game a Khajiit was completely laughable as a mage. J'zargo was one of the best students at the College of Winterhold. They are a clever race (if also known to be a bit lazy sometimes as a cat should be) why shouldn't they be good at clever things? Even the changes to the Altmer resource return was obviously a way of nodding at players who might have wanted to play as an Altmer warrior. Their first attempt was clearly to make it possible to be any race/role without losing much. It wasn't perfect and it will need tweaking but I can see where they are going with this and I believe it is a good direction.


If they can narrow the performance differences between the races I personally believe it will be positive for the game. I like the little unique differences but it shouldn't be so overwhelming that an Altmer Tank or Warrior is laughed at. These things should be easily worked around as they were in the standalone games.

dave_harter_ESO

I have spent a lot of time and effort on my altmer for outfits and other stuff. I do not want to race change because someone decided to make the altmer a f@#$ing pvp only race. This altmer change is absolutely horrible nerf to the third performing magik race for pve on the current pts. I will quit before bothering with a race change. This recent set of changes is not encouraging me to play the game rather these altmer changes will most likely cause me to just quit if they go live.

Savos_Saren

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

StopDropAndBear wrote: »

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

"On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability."Race Change Notes.

"Well known and powerful spellcasters." Yet they will be the weakest Magicka race if these updates are pushed through. I swear this update is a joke. Or a mistake.

You gotta watch out, though. Historically speaking- Altmer are very, very weak to magic attacks (they actually receive negative attribute points). So, perhaps take the low resource regen and 5% damage reduction while casting (totally opposite of the lore).

That isn't entirely accurate. As I recall they were resilient toward what we might call 'untyped magic' damage versus elemental damage. Altmer were also at various points resilient toward poison and disease.

@dodgehopper_ESO

No- it was definitely most parts of magic. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Morrowind)(Oblivion)(Daggerfall) But I don't want to push the issue. I like the fact that Altmer are going to be able to regain stamina while activating class abilities. That makes them better sword and board mDKs if they can gain stamina while block casting.

silvereyes

@ZOS_Gilliam, ZOS' vision for Wood Elves' racial identity is becoming more clear after the v4.3.2 patch notes today, but I think it's fair to say that many of us do not share that vision.

There seems to be this impression of Wood Elves as this close-range, roly poly Terminator that seeks out and tactically destroys their foes from blind angles without them knowing what hit them.

For the sake of argument, lets pretend for a moment that people would be willing to completely abandon their understanding of Bosmer racial identity as sneaky archers. Let's pretend for a moment that seeking out hidden enemies is something people may value more than things like damage, regeneration or base stats. Let's pretend that the current bonuses are effective in the least at what they appear to promise.

Let's ask if anyone actually wants to play like this?

Thankfully, there's already a set that does something very similar. It's called Way of Air:


That sounds pretty familiar.

• Increases damage after dodge rolling for a short time (although it's 6 seconds, not 4).
• Increases the radius you can detect Sneaking enemies by 2 meters (1 m less than the Bosmer PTS passive)

Okay, it's not a perfect comparison, but it should be a pretty good indication of whether these bonuses are valued by people. Let's see...



Hrm, not so much.

If you are confused why people are upset about the changes to Wood Elves, it's because our beloved Bosmer have been reduced to the decon trash of races.

Edit: By the way, I'm mostly just crying about Hunter's Eye and Wood Elf's flavor passives. I find them so niche as to be useless trash, compared to the other races' flavor passives this round. The other racial passives for Bosmer, though, are decent. They will probably be middle-of-the-pack for sustained stamina DPS.

TheRealPotoroo

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

I am satisfied with the new changes made to the PTS today. ZoS, well done. I have no further suggestions.

Why do you hate Bosmer? Hunter's Eye makes zero sense for them, before and after the tweak. It removes a useful, lore friendly PVE ability that many players based their characters on with a highly questionable PVP ability. It is mind bogglingly clueless and makes no sense from any perspective. It has to be thrown out entirely and the stealth bonus restored.

dodgehopper_ESO

Savos_Saren wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

StopDropAndBear wrote: »

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

"On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability."Race Change Notes.

"Well known and powerful spellcasters." Yet they will be the weakest Magicka race if these updates are pushed through. I swear this update is a joke. Or a mistake.

You gotta watch out, though. Historically speaking- Altmer are very, very weak to magic attacks (they actually receive negative attribute points). So, perhaps take the low resource regen and 5% damage reduction while casting (totally opposite of the lore).

That isn't entirely accurate. As I recall they were resilient toward what we might call 'untyped magic' damage versus elemental damage. Altmer were also at various points resilient toward poison and disease.

@dodgehopper_ESO

No- it was definitely most parts of magic. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Morrowind)(Oblivion)(Daggerfall) But I don't want to push the issue. I like the fact that Altmer are going to be able to regain stamina while activating class abilities. That makes them better sword and board mDKs if they can gain stamina while block casting.

The 75% resistance to disease seems to disagree. You might be right about the magic resist issue. I want to fire up Morrowind again to confirm though. In sum we might be both partly right and wrong. At any regard the race in those games also started out with high willpower and personality meaning that it had a stronger baseline resist (before modifiers) kicked in, at least at the low level of the game. I never liked Altmer in Oblivion or Morrowind personally despite the magic power they had. Breton was much better which makes sense: They are human. =D

ToRelax

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I have mentioned my suggestion in other posts. But i will repeat it in the official racial passives thread.

With PTS 4.3.2 dunmers have had the health removed from the second passive and now it only provides fire resistance/immunity. This is inconsistent with other races that have resistances/immunity to frost/disease/poison. Those races get another bonus on top of the specific damage type immunities/resistance. With this week changes to spell charge for high elves that now provides sustain for your lower resource pool, high elves are in an weird state.

Suggestions:

I think the new spell recharge should be added to dunmers. I think it fits more with their lore and identity. They get bonus magicka and stamina resources. Dunmers are hybrid warriors good at spellcasting and swordsmanship. Thus, magicka dunmers get stamina sustain making them agile spell casters for roll dodging and break free use. And stamina dunmers are great spellswords getting magicka sustain to provide magickal buffs/utility to help in their stamina setup. This new spell recharge should be added to their second passive along with fire resist to compensate for loss of the health stat.

Now altmers are a powerful magicka race with natural affinity for the arcane arts. Now i understand Zos doesn't want altmers to have as much sustain as khajit or bretons, but they should have a small amount of magicka recovery (50-65). In addition the hp benefit that was removed from dunmer should be given to altmer (750-1000 hp). Thus the second passive would provide health (750-1000) and magicka recovery (50-65). High elf still has the magicka sustain nerf compared to PTS week 1 but my suggestion aligns with the lore and is a decent compromise for game balance. Any suggestions or criticisms of my feedback is welcome. Thanks.

Altmer change seems a bit weird as they are now outclassed by Breton for PvE, while the change makes very little difference in PvP. Some people don't want as much stam regen or already have another source as a byproduct of a set they want to use anyway, like Bloodspawn, while others get better stam sustain while blocking. The rest just won't add extra stam regen and that's it.
Don't see the point in this change at all.
(edit: Stam regen would work well here I think, if Altmer is just competitive with Breton and Khajiit in PvE. Like I said it doesn't really matter much in PvP, and in PvE they were obviously outclassing Dunmer previously. This just doesn't really help balance without touching the races Altmer was competing with in the first place)

Dunmer honestly is efficient enough now. I would probably reduce the max stats to 1500 and then add as much weapon and spell damage as needed to put their damage output in PvE on equal footing with Altmer/Orc. But as far as PvP goes, they're already in a good spot with this change.

actosh

Values for the Return are too Low.
Needs to be at least 500of each 5sec CD.
Get rid of cost reduction and add 2k max Magicka.
If keeping the cost reduction, make it flat values

xaraan

Hiddle wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

But to slam a race that is only good at support, take a player like me that has 10 dps argonians and the only thing I have going for them is the resource return. So whatever I get from that, has to be as worthwhile as every DPS bonus combined on another race and it still makes them laughable to show up with in an end game raid as DPS.

Not to be rude, but seeing that you have 15 argonians, one might say you are biased towards this race.

I do have argonians, and play both PVE and PVP, and I can state how overperforming the race is compared to many other races currently on live. The first changes still made the Argonian an interesting choice to perform tank roles, but allowed others races to compete on the same footing. However, I do think argonians deserved some form of DPS buff, but not reverting their resource buff.

A little rude, but I'll get over it - not like I'm all sunshine and roses. Preferring to play all one race doesn't mean I'm not able look at things rationally. If I was up to some sort of angle, I wouldn't be upfront about playing all argonians. Also, some were previously other races, and I've also pvp'd and pve'd with a variety of them. In fact, I'm probably one of the few people to go from a meta race in whatever build to Argonian in the exact same gear/cp/etc. setup and have seen the power difference. So no, they were not "over performing". Even in PvP, the potion passive didn't make up for when I went from Bosmer to Argonian in stam management or Redguard for stam dps and management, and especially Dunmer DK (rip flame bonus for them). In several posts I've also commented on the other support races needing the same attention as Argonians, though I might not have specific recommendations for them in comparison.

In the end though, it seems we agree that the support nerfs were not terrible, but dps buffs (even if not huge) should have replaced them. My point in another thread was that when zos offers little to nothing to help with DPS, then they have to give something in support really good to make up for that and it ends up being strong b/c of what they give up, even though it needs to be strong enough to make what you are giving up in straight DPS bonuses worth it; and unfortunately I think it's perceived as even stronger than it often is.

dodgehopper_ESO

xaraan wrote: »

Hiddle wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

But to slam a race that is only good at support, take a player like me that has 10 dps argonians and the only thing I have going for them is the resource return. So whatever I get from that, has to be as worthwhile as every DPS bonus combined on another race and it still makes them laughable to show up with in an end game raid as DPS.

Not to be rude, but seeing that you have 15 argonians, one might say you are biased towards this race.

I do have argonians, and play both PVE and PVP, and I can state how overperforming the race is compared to many other races currently on live. The first changes still made the Argonian an interesting choice to perform tank roles, but allowed others races to compete on the same footing. However, I do think argonians deserved some form of DPS buff, but not reverting their resource buff.

A little rude, but I'll get over it - not like I'm all sunshine and roses. Preferring to play all one race doesn't mean I'm not able look at things rationally. If I was up to some sort of angle, I wouldn't be upfront about playing all argonians. Also, some were previously other races, and I've also pvp'd and pve'd with a variety of them. In fact, I'm probably one of the few people to go from a meta race in whatever build to Argonian in the exact same gear/cp/etc. setup and have seen the power difference. So no, they were not "over performing". Even in PvP, the potion passive didn't make up for when I went from Bosmer to Argonian in stam management or Redguard for stam dps and management, and especially Dunmer DK (rip flame bonus for them). In several posts I've also commented on the other support races needing the same attention as Argonians, though I might not have specific recommendations for them in comparison.

In the end though, it seems we agree that the support nerfs were not terrible, but dps buffs (even if not huge) should have replaced them. My point in another thread was that when zos offers little to nothing to help with DPS, then they have to give something in support really good to make up for that and it ends up being strong b/c of what they give up, even though it needs to be strong enough to make what you are giving up in straight DPS bonuses worth it; and unfortunately I think it's perceived as even stronger than it often is.

This is precisely how I feel as well.

dodgehopper_ESO

Does anyone else find the snare resistance on Redgards a bit strange when that feels an awful lot more like a Nord type of thing. It is a pretty neat trait to have though. This makes the Redguard Warden even more interesting now.

Katinas

High Elf
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.
What will this do to a Magicka DD Altmer? Receiving Stamina which you will spend on what exactly? And for the few Stamina DDs who will choose an unoptimal race for Stamina what will they do with the Magicka? Please revert this to original change of the first PTS iteration. Please. This change is absurd, nonsensical, useless and not needed at all. From being a very competent Magicka DD race with this change Altmers are getting hit so bad that nobody will want to choose Altmer. At the very least, make it so that you receive 645 Magicka or Stamina - whichever you have the least at the moment of proc. If I am a Magicka DD with a maximum of 40k Magicka and 10k Stamina and my current Magicka is at 18k out of 40k and my Stamina is almost full at 11k and the time for passive to proc is now - I receive 645 Stamina. If later in the fight my Magicka is only 7k and my Stamina is full - I receive 645 Magicka. If I rolled a few times and now my Stamina is almost empty at 3k and my Magicka is back to 28k out of 40k - I restore 645 Stamina.

Argonian
Life Mender: Increased the Healing Done bonus to 6% from 4%.
Resourceful: Increased the Health, Magicka, and Stamina restore from drinking a potion to 4000 from 3620.
The increase of Healing Done is not needed at all. 3% Healing Done and 3% Healing Received would have been a more balanced change. Increase to resource restoring is almost as if no changes happened to Argonians. They will again be seen as a potion race.

Wood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
When you roll you are playing defensively. When you roll you get increased offensive stats. Where is the connection here? How are you supposed to gain something when rolling animation is like 1 second in itself. When you finished rolling how much time do you have left to make use of that passive? Please rather make it into something defensive or in the form of resource management. My suggestion: gain a small cost reduction to next ability cast while the buff for increased movement speed lasts.

Breton
Spell Attunement: The Spell Resistance granted by this effect will now be doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.
While other classes have immunities to status effects Bretons will have some extra resistances. Not a fan of this change. Give Bretons something offensive, even if it is very slight. Perhaps a one line worth of Spell Damage, 258 or whatever is the number.

Dark Elf
Dynamic: Increased the Max Magicka and Stamina granted to 1875 from 1250.
Resist Flame: Removed the Max Health bonus from this passive.
Dunmers had all stats increase which was unique. I would like to see them still having some Health, even if as little as 500.

Imperial
Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of Block and Bash by 5%.
This is still a really low number, although all three stats instead of just healing is a correct way.

Khajiit
Lunar Blessings: Increased the Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina bonuses to 825 from 750.
Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m.
Robustness: Increased the Magicka and Stamina Recovery bonuses to 85 from 75.
Happy with the changes to stealth aspect of the passives.

Orc
Brawny: This passive now grants 2000 Max Stamina instead of 500 Health and 500 Stamina.
Unflinching Rage: This passive now grants 1000 Max Health and heals you for up to 600 when you deal damage with a weapon, with a 4 second cooldown. Previously, it granted 4% Healing Taken, and 380 Stamina and Health when dealing damage with a weapon.
This is the worst change of all racial passive changes. Please, don't kill Orcs like this. Players want resources, not healing much like Imperials have on Live currently. Forget the concept of Orcs being a brawler juggernaut race. Nobody selects their race based on tiny unnoticeable healing.

Redguard
Martial Training: Added a bonus that reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
This I feel is a far too strong buff. Warden's Icy Aura is the same 15%, is it not too much for Redguards?

Major concerns:

• Don't ruin Altmer with passive which gives you NOT the resource which you want but with resource which is in many cases completely irrelevant.
• Bosmers gain offensive stats after rolling to play defensive.
• Orcs become the new Imperials. First PTS iteration made them an attractive race for Stamina DD, current PTS makes the banker race.

ToRelax

If Bosmer are too keep this penetration, maybe consider increasing the duration of both the speed and penetration buffs?
Speed to make it more intuitive to use in conjunction with other speed bonuses and penetration to be able to use it for an offensive window in PvP.

Sinolai

After patch 4.3.2 The ones that need tweaks:
Imperial - Resorce return needs to be higher. Nerf max stamina to 1500 and add 1500 max magicka? That would add some versatility, while still powerful as a tank (tanks like magicka).
Bosmer - Make penetration bonus permanent and we are good. This passive is currently tied too much on PvP side. Change would make it useful in PvE too.
Dunmer - Nerf max resources to 1500 (or even 1250). Add SOMETHING interesting (status change? 10 % extra damage when your hp < 50%? 10% extra damage when enemy HP < 15%? Extra magicka recovery when using a racial /dance?) From PvE perspective this race looks like burn immune Altmer (even more so after Altmer changes). There must be some practical things to separate them.
Altmer - Although stamina sustain tool is interesting and not completely useless, it cripples Altmer too much to compete against Khajiit, Breton and Dunmer as end-game Magicka DPS. Change spell charge back to magicka recovery. Make it also proc from guild abilities so sorcs can benefit from it too (they dont have class spammable).

sionIV

Katinas wrote: »

Major concerns:

• Don't ruin Altmer with passive which gives you NOT the resource which you want but with resource which is in many cases completely irrelevant.
• Bosmers gain offensive stats after rolling to play defensive.
  
• Orcs become the new Imperials. First PTS iteration made them an attractive race for Stamina DD, current PTS makes the banker race.

What are you on about? The Orc is one of the strongest (if not the strongest) stamina DD at the moment. Imperial is on 6th place for stamina DD.

I would give my right arm to get the Orc racials instead of the *** that the Imperial got.

Tyrion87

So, when it comes to the new Altmer passive...

...if I undertand it correctly, when fighting on my mag Altmer I get a resource that is already full? How it that helpful ZOS? How can I consider it as an utility passive? What does it have to do with the lore and Altmer identity as a superior magicka race?

Everything is so wrong here with this passive. It is an absurd in its current state. A spell recharge passive that grants you stamina recovery.... Where is the logic?

I feel betrayed because we all were promised, before racial changes were revealed, that ZOS intends to take a less drastic approach when it comes to balancing the game. That there will be tweaks/adjustments. But all we got on most races are nerfs, not tweaks. How can I be a happy customer ZOS when you decide to complety deprive me of some kind of mag sustain which I have now on live and replace it with something utterly useless to me. I will basically have 2 passives.

ZOS, if you want to gut Altmer's sustain, then replace it with spell penetration. Then your statement that Altmer is a race that deals high amounts of dmg (hard hitting race) will be true. Now it is nothing but hypocritical. Another compromise solution could be that Altmer gets back magicka when it drops below certain level with a cooldown.

Honestly, the latest change to spell racharge feels like something that was invented and implemented for the very last moment and was not really thought through. If you are not satisfied with its current state, then at least change it to something useful for a magicka character. While doing so, keep in mind that since launch people have been choosing Altmers specifically for a magicka DD (or heal) role. And you cannot change that now depriving Altmer of sustain completely (and even making sustain on a nonpet magsorc a horror) virtually reducing overall mag dps of a race while at the same time promoting, after 5 years of game's life, the other races as top magicka races.

I am really asking you to rethink this passive again and change it to something useful for a magicka character in both PVP and PVE scenarios.

Cinbri

1. So incase of dunmers ZOS decided to push offensive Shacklebreaker hybrid set stat over original tanking Trainee hybrid set stat, right decision to achieve for Dunmers its lore-wise and in some cases RP state of versatile raw disruptive power. No need changes here unless races will be buffed again next pts.

2. Imperials new Red Diamond looks balanced for its effect - 333stats over 5sec is 333/5=66.6*2=133 regen of hybrid tristats with 2k hp and stamina. While argonians have 4k/45=8.8.*2=178 regen of hybrid tristats(that can be pushed in cost of max stats) with 1k hp and mana. And both have additional bonuses. So, Imperial is more raw stat and less regen, while Argonians is more regen with less raw stats. However argonians have not just disease resistance but also immunity to Diseased effect, if on CP it can be averagely equal to max stat scaling of Imperials, but on noCP pvp there is no CP scaling and Imperials outshined by lizards, need to be done something here. Another reason why noCP and CP can't coexist.

3. Redguards snare resistance - its very risky to put such passive. Right now it is already not "small reduction to snare potency" because it copy of entire 2nd level passive of warden - Icy Aura and thus its strength equal to entire passive. But main risk is that if/when in future zos will address snare problem and as part of it will overhaul how snares and snare resistances calculating and interact with each other - this already strong passive might become overpowered and will need race adjustment again. Need to decrease its effectiveness to 1st level of Icy Aura and make it "Reduce the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 7%" similar to how Bretons new bonus to armor is half the potency of major buff.

Minno

Cinbri wrote: »

1. So incase of dunmers ZOS decided to push offensive Shacklebreaker hybrid set stat over original tanking Trainee hybrid set stat, right decision to achieve for Dunmers its lore-wise and in some cases RP state of versatile raw disruptive power. No need changes here unless races will be buffed again next pts.

2. Imperials new Red Diamond looks balanced for its effect - 333stats over 5sec is 333/5=66.6*2=133 regen of hybrid tristats with 2k hp and stamina. While argonians have 4k/45=8.8.*2=178 regen of hybrid tristats(that can be pushed in cost of max stats) with 1k hp and mana. And both have additional bonuses. So, Imperial is more raw stat and less regen, while Argonians is more regen with less raw stats. However argonians have not just disease resistance but also immunity to Diseased effect, if on CP it can be averagely equal to max stat scaling of Imperials, but on noCP pvp there is no CP scaling and Imperials outshined by lizards, need to be done something here. Another reason why noCP and CP can't coexist.

3. Redguards snare resistance - its very risky to put such passive. Right now it is already not "small reduction to snare potency" because it copy of entire 2nd level passive of warden - Icy Aura and thus its strength equal to entire passive. But main risk is that if/when in future zos will address snare problem and as part of it will overhaul how snares and snare resistances calculating and interact with each other - this already strong passive might become overpowered and will need race adjustment again. Need to decrease its effectiveness to 1st level of Icy Aura and make it "Reduce the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 7%" similar to how Bretons new bonus to armor is half the potency of major buff.

Agreed. Good feedback here. What do you want to see on imperial?

Cinbri

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

1. So incase of dunmers ZOS decided to push offensive Shacklebreaker hybrid set stat over original tanking Trainee hybrid set stat, right decision to achieve for Dunmers its lore-wise and in some cases RP state of versatile raw disruptive power. No need changes here unless races will be buffed again next pts.

2. Imperials new Red Diamond looks balanced for its effect - 333stats over 5sec is 333/5=66.6*2=133 regen of hybrid tristats with 2k hp and stamina. While argonians have 4k/45=8.8.*2=178 regen of hybrid tristats(that can be pushed in cost of max stats) with 1k hp and mana. And both have additional bonuses. So, Imperial is more raw stat and less regen, while Argonians is more regen with less raw stats. However argonians have not just disease resistance but also immunity to Diseased effect, if on CP it can be averagely equal to max stat scaling of Imperials, but on noCP pvp there is no CP scaling and Imperials outshined by lizards, need to be done something here. Another reason why noCP and CP can't coexist.

3. Redguards snare resistance - its very risky to put such passive. Right now it is already not "small reduction to snare potency" because it copy of entire 2nd level passive of warden - Icy Aura and thus its strength equal to entire passive. But main risk is that if/when in future zos will address snare problem and as part of it will overhaul how snares and snare resistances calculating and interact with each other - this already strong passive might become overpowered and will need race adjustment again. Need to decrease its effectiveness to 1st level of Icy Aura and make it "Reduce the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 7%" similar to how Bretons new bonus to armor is half the potency of major buff.

Agreed. Good feedback here. What do you want to see on imperial?

I don't think zos will bother with it since noCP pvp is too minor part of game (yet more healthy ) as most content is CP-enabled and with their plans to rebalance CP they might as well delete it in distant future.

Eareindur

The changes look promising. But to wrap everything up, Imperials need something more/different and sadly their changes can't be tested for now... And without any testing to comment on and though I tried to, I can't understand many of the new complaints.

Bosmer got a nice OP ability (speed) in exchange for their stealthy bonus that now is getting a well deserved nerf. However, that's not all, because they are being compensated with a damage bonus and still we keep hearing whinings. I understand the disappointment of people who built a Bosmer stealthy char, but everything else is beyond me.

Altmer complainers need more perspective. After all, it was about balancing races, you know? ZOS want them to be the equivalent Magicka race of Orcs, raw damage without sustain, and nobody can seriously say that Orcs won't be a competitive race. Don't miss that raw damage has an obvious advantage over other kind of bonus to damage (Khajiit with crit) or resources (Bretons with sustain): the succesful use of these bonuses is conditional to certain classes/builts or tweaks. And don't forget that Altmer would still have more raw damage than Dunmer. Besides, sustain in PVE is not that big issue with well organised groups.

Rehdaun

Preface, this is coming from an end-game magicka player.

What gets me is I don't understand how Zos can say their vision is this with regard to Dunmer and Altmer when it comes to playing magicka.


Reference

I see two nearly identical races as far as combat stats are concerned.

MLGProPlayer

Rehdaun wrote: »

Preface, this is coming from an end-game magicka player.

What gets me is I don't understand how Zos can say their vision is this with regard to Dunmer and Altmer when it comes to playing magicka.


Reference

I see two nearly identical races as far as combat stats are concerned.

Now add add columns for Khajiit and Breton and you'll want to uninstall.

Rehdaun

Now add add columns for Khajiit and Breton and you'll want to uninstall.

Oh I already did.