Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

TheGreatBlackBear

I'd ask questions if my healer was a dw stamblade or if my tank was a 17k mag dk. All. Day. Long.

Meeting people in PUGs is fun and I will never stop doing them. I just vote to kick or leave or adapt as the situation requires.

witchdoctor

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'd group up with guildies to avoid being placed in a team like this tbh

The best part is the absolute lack of self awareness that he proudly proclaims himself as why you shouldn't PUG.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Now these are the rules:
1. We always say "Hi" the the random fool in group chat. if he don't say "Hi" back before we can vote and kick...well...then...he's GOOD and kicked!

[SNIP]

The moral of this lil story is make some friends and do dungeons with them. Queuing up with PUGS, PEOPLE. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. is BOUND TO END IN DISASTER.

Yeah, disaster would be stumbling upon you 3.

Aesthier

John_Falstaff wrote: »

...that's how it's supposed to work...

I completely agree with the idea that it should work in the manner you prescribed, however, it doesn't and hasn't for a long long time.


Thread after thread after thread of "Fake Healers, Fake Tanks, and Fake DPS filled with opinions on to what standard these roles should be held.

But the factual standard, the tool itself, doesn't work in that way whatsoever, and as previous experience has shown ZoS has no plans to ever fix it.


To those suggesting the tool be fixed, I tip my hat. But to those making no effort to circumvent their own misery through practical application and demanding, with stubborn fixed minded abandon, that others they perceive as abusers change their ways instead...

::sigh::

It's a ridiculous expectation and I am ridiculously tired of seeing it so I will simply agree to disagree and move on.


Anyway.

Good Luck with all your persistence, I honestly do hope ZoS fixes the tool but I really don't see them doing that or even how they would do so now that all classes can perform all roles.

Peace out.

John_Falstaff

@Aesthier , mm-m, all right, some people queue as fake tanks, fake healers and fake DPS, that much of your point I understood. ^^ What I didn't understand is how does it make honest tanks, healers and DPS selfish, exactly, in your view. ^^ Why is it more selfish to honestly queue as DPS or something else, than to pull friends in? In both cases you're aiming to do your job and both enjoy it and make others' time enjoyable too. I totally can't understand how I'm selfish by doing that.

It's pointless to blame the tool, because tool works as expected. It's people; some people want a free ride, but others strive for everyone's good, and the finder simply puts them together based on the role they selected. If everyone's honest, then nobody's selfish, it sort of follows.

HalloweenWeed

This is obviously a hot topic, so ZOS SHOULD take notice.

If the topic is this hot, it has to be a true issue that should be evaluated for a change in the game.

Aesthier

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Aesthier , mm-m, all right, some people queue as fake tanks, fake healers and fake DPS, that much of your point I understood. ^^ What I didn't understand is how does it make honest tanks, healers and DPS selfish, exactly, in your view. ^^

Your answers are provided in my previous posts.

Guppet

They can help by changing the stupid undaunted web spell. Change it to this-

“It was him”

Taunts the mob to the designated tank.

Yeah you give up a skill slot to use it. But just imagine how annoying that would be for a fake tank. A real tank would love the assist.

If I didn’t tank, I’d have that on my healer and use it on every mob. I’d watch the fake melt on every pack. Cos they wouldn’t be getting heals. I’d be too busy doing thier tanking for them to actually heal them lol.

One morph to maim the mob one to sunder it. Be a worthwhile skill.

John_Falstaff

@Aesthier , I fear they're not. By honestly queueing as certain role and fulfilling the role's requirements, I'm helping three other people get good experience. I don't see any explanation from you on how it's selfish.

Jayman1000

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

yup, this is really a problem. I usually queue as tank because I don't want to wait in the queue, but I can fill that role, but during this event the wait time is more than 15 min even when queuing for tank. Aint got time for that crap and I fear other real tanks feel the same so that leaves the queue even more bloated with fake tanks because the real tanks are less likely to bother waiting it out.

GreenHere

Jayman1000 wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

yup, this is really a problem. I usually queue as tank because I don't want to wait in the queue, but I can fill that role, but during this event the wait time is more than 15 min even when queuing for tank. Aint got time for that crap and I fear other real tanks feel the same so that leaves the queue even more bloated with fake tanks because the real tanks are less likely to bother waiting it out.

I'm curious @Jayman1000 , what platform are you on that you are getting these wait times for a tank queue?

Soris

Rift had a system years ago, dunno if another games had it but it locked your role based on the build and skills you have. It can be implemented to eso since we have basic skill advisor showing the skills a role should use. So, to select tank role in group finder you need to have at least 25k health and taunt slotted.

GreenHere

Soris wrote: »

Rift had a system years ago, dunno if another games had it but it locked your role based on the build and skills you have. It can be implemented to eso since we have basic skill advisor showing the skills a role should use. So, to select tank role in group finder you need to have at least 25k health and taunt slotted.

Many, including myself, do not like this approach, though. One of the good things about ESO is the variety of ways to get things accomplished. Locking out certain ways of doing things -- particularly the out-of-the-box ways -- hurts the game in ways no one wants.

It's hard to say if the price we'd pay in killing such diversity would be worth it to potentially "fix" this issue. But I'd not be willing to gamble on it.

starkerealm

BuddyAces wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

I just started getting back into ESO and I met this tank in a dungeon last night.

11k health. I don't even know how you can manage to get health that low. It's seriously haunted me.

Gonna go out on a limb and say that has to be a UI bug or something. Pretty sure at level ten (lowest level to Q for dungeons)you should have more health than that even with no gear on.

At CP300+, it's possible to get under 10k hitpoints, if you don't have food, and no points in health. 11k is entirely possible for a light armor build. Still a terrible idea, but it is possible.

Jayman1000

GreenHere wrote: »

I'm curious @Jayman1000 , what platform are you on that you are getting these wait times for a tank queue?

PC. I was hoping it was a bug, still hoping for that but... everytime I queue this event there's tons of wait time as tank, which there normally never is. So I do suspect that during the event the amount of fake tanks has exploded.

NordSwordnBoard

I forget when exactly, but a while back they made changes to dungeon loot after tanks reported a financial loss or puny gain for repairs versus loot earned. There were comments about "tip your tank" and such. Many tanks wouldn't use the finder because of bad groups being in there while good groups were selectively forming out of zone chat. Many DDs claimed they couldn't even get into content because dungeon finder was busted, and LFG in zone excluded people/prejudged them based on the armor they had on and titles/lack thereof.

Primetime, and even just in the afternoon, a tank could lfg for dailies in zone and get in a group fast. You got to know people waiting for other roles, talk about builds, and whatever else. You still can do this, but I haven't in a while unless for trials. Its either people I know/guild or strangers in finder.

On one hand, getting the random rewards has become habitual for me. On the other, maybe support players need to go back to zone lfg, to hell with the 100k/rewards. I like helping random people, but not lost causes. One can usually ferret out the lost cause/fake whatever in the group before we ever get to the dungeon.

If "real" support roles stop using the finder and strand a bunch of dps and fakers in there, would the forum clamor get enough attention that the devs adjust it again? I'm going to avoid finder and just do the old school lfg in zone by the undaunted camp tonight. See how it goes.

One point I want to underline - any restrictions/nerfs on the roles that are in low supply (tank & healer) will only make that supply dwindle further if they have much better options, free of restrictions.

ZeroXFF

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'm really amused by the term fake DPS. Is that when i queue as a DPS on my healer and try to heavy attack things to death with my resto?

Or if your main weapon is 1hs, you have 30k HP without even a food buff, and you do so little damage that I do more with my tank. (true story, happened today)

Also, the guy definitely didn't just queue as DD by mistake, because after seeing what he was doing I suggested that he goes as tank and I switched to my DPS setup, but he didn't taunt even once.

AcadianPaladin

Wow, hot thread is right. One of my characters is indeed a classic pure Woeler-style Imperial DK tank - and he's fairly good at it. Why are there not more of us in general?

- I can't do significant dps. Throw me a bone or two so that at least one of my skills (like my s&b taunt for example) scales damage based on my health instead of my hybrid small pools of mag or stam. Instead of being a pure tank who can do 4k dps, let me keep my build pure but do 10k dps - just enough to make solo questing not tedious and still remain a pure tank. My pure healer does 3 or 4 times the damage my pure tank does - and it gives her ever so much more flexibility.

- Boss mechanics. When I can grab a boss, turn him away from group, hold him in position and take whatever he throws at me I feel like a god - and that is how my tank is built. The problem is that too many bosses are able to break or ignore my taunt - rendering me and tiny 4k dps melee-only dps totally irrelevant. Absolutely breaks my heart, spirit and desire to play a tank if I cannot do Job #1 (survive and hold the darn boss off my group).

- Unlike others, I don't find the tank job boring at all. Ideally, I lead the group, set the pace, initiate the pulls, hold the boss, chain in adds and root them all under my dps' AoE killing zone. Rather than boring, I'd submit that the responsibility and leadership a good tank should bring to the fight intimidates many from the job.


The above concerns apply to tanks even when they have a known group and full voice comm. The population of tanks who are willing to pug with strangers using only the chat box is even smaller for some additional reasons:

- Since main tanks do so little dps, we are totally dependent on our dd's. Few things are more frustrating than being able to hold a boss for a long time but being thwarted by either a boss who has a special high health regen ability or the ability to gradually overwhelm with respawning adds if dps is not sufficient.

- Though tanks can mitigate/block heavy damage and have adequate self-heals, most of us cannot reach out and heal others effectively. I need a healer I can rely on to keep my dps alive when the boss covers the whole floor with red or comes with dozens of dispersed adds.

- To effectively lead the group ideally means the whole group either knows the mechanics or the tank can explain what is coming up over voice - hard to count on with a random group and no voice communication.

Loves_guars

For the ones asking if there are players that enjoy tank: I can only speak for myself but yes, I actually love tanking and it's my favorite role.

But I stopped pugging. Why? Getting low dps pugs is a problem but it wasn't the reason, no. It's all the damn hyperactive players that keep running ahead of the tank and pulling everything that ruins the dungeon for me. So yes, there may be real tanks out there, but maybe we just play with friends.

Swifigames

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

What are your options? I ended up with a low CP fake tank for my random norm last night in CoS. At least it was on normal. Mostly annoying to end up in queue's like that. But again, what are the options? You can either leave & re-queue, or vote to kick.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

JumpmanLane wrote: »

2. Don't say ANYTHING about what ANYBODY is doing in that dungeon. Stuff like, "What's the tank doing?" and "Why have we stopped?" or "Which one of yawl is supposed o be the healer?" KICKED!

When I go to try dungeons I hope I don’t enter your rude group, especially since you kick players asking simple questions.

DocDova

I was playing moon hunter keep with a random team, We had a good team. All of a sudden our tank went offline after a reasonable amount of time we removed him and queued for a new tank. It was before garden boss. I wasn't in group audio chat, So some guy comes as a tank and when we went for garden boss fight, it became apparent that he's not a tank. Healer started vote to kick him out I just said 'give him another chance' in text chat and healer left. Then I realized they been chating in audio chat and tank was not just 'Non Tank' but also irritating.

So Now we kicked tank out, but now we were two members short. Now would you believe, Same guy came back as tank 3 times, Every time he pretended in audio chat he thinks we are a new team and we kept removing him. Somehow we cleared that dungeon when an actual tank and healer came.

Right now I have 3 character (lvl 50) one Magsorc, One Argonian DK Tank and one Nord DK mixed (tank/bad stam dps). I know as Magsorc, I have to wait in queue, and If I go to a hard dungeon (Moon hunter keep/ scale caller etc) as my Nord tank, I would simply say that I wasn't expecting this dungeon and I am not good enough tank, and I would leave.

HalloweenWeed

I agree but with the following caveat: Don't make such a rule for tanks under Lv50. It would force them to use sword & board as that is really their only choice of a taunt below CP levels.

Sorry I couldn't voice this earlier, but I think it's very important. Many players seem to forget about <Lv50 players.

code65536

I've been using the Group Finder on my tank on EU recently, as it's a new character, and I need to level Undaunted and skills.

The majority of runs have been slow slogs or wipes due to low DPS. Here's my favorite:


20K group dps. 4K was from the tank. Assuming the healer did 2K (they were throwing a lot of spears), that's only 14K DPS from the two DDs combined--an average of just 7K each. Fortunately, this was only vFG1, so no risk of wiping. Imagine if this had been a tougher dungeon.

And this is why, despite having three "real" tanks, I never use the Group Finder on NA as a tank.

GreenHere

code65536 wrote: »

I've been using the Group Finder on my tank on EU recently, as it's a new character, and I need to level Undaunted and skills.

The majority of runs have been slow slogs or wipes due to low DPS. Here's my favorite:


20K group dps. 4K was from the tank. Assuming the healer did 2K (they were throwing a lot of spears), that's only 14K DPS from the two DDs combined--an average of just 7K each. Fortunately, this was only vFG1, so no risk of wiping. Imagine if this had been a tougher dungeon.

And this is why, despite having three "real" tanks, I never use the Group Finder on NA as a tank.

Well you've shot yourself in the foot by posting your Combat Metrics report, @code65536, because now we can all see the fault actually lies with you!

You didn't provide your team with Warhorn! Everyone knows Warhorn magically fixes all dps issues, and if the tank doesn't run it everything can be blamed on them. C'mon man...

;P






(If you've ever been in a PuG with noobs you collectively pull ~30K dps and shout "weres my WH tankk?1 u suk" then you know the feels, and this satirical post is for you, friend! ;D)

Meld777

@code65536 I understand the problem of bad DDs. There are also tons of bad tanks and healers.

But this thread is about fake tanks, not bad tanks or bad DDs. Fake tank = squishy DD queues as tank without any intention of tanking, no taunt.

I understand that there are way fewer tanks than DDs in group finder, and that's ok. And if a tank says, "DPS in group finder is bad, I'd rather go DD", it's ok, but then he should queue as DD.

Also, I doubt a single fake tank has ever played tank before. What makes a fake tank special is that he doesn't have taunt slotted. A tank that got tired of low DPS and switched to DD, assuming he still chooses to queue as tank, will have the decency to slot taunt.

Fake tanks don't queue up because they're sick of low DPS in group finder. After all, how would it affect them if they play DD anyway? They're just skipping queue because they're selfish and because the system favors it. They get a party instantly when they queue. Bad random dungeon? Just get kicked and queue again.

When ZOS removed the 15 min penalty from kicked players to protect the low CP guys being kicked for selfish reasons, they also made the group finder a fake tanks' paradise.

GreenHere

Meld777 wrote: »

@code65536 I understand the problem of bad DDs. There are also tons of bad tanks and healers.

But this thread is about fake tanks, not bad tanks or bad DDs. Fake tank = squishy DD queues as tank without any intention of tanking, no taunt.

I understand that there are way fewer tanks than DDs in group finder, and that's ok. And if a tank says, "DPS in group finder is bad, I'd rather go DD", it's ok, but then he should queue as DD.

Also, I doubt a single fake tank has ever played tank before. What makes a fake tank special is that he doesn't have taunt slotted. A tank that got tired of low DPS and switched to DD, assuming he still chooses to queue as tank, will have the decency to slot taunt.

Fake tanks don't queue up because they're sick of low DPS in group finder. After all, how would it affect them if they play DD anyway? They're just skipping queue because they're selfish and because the system favors it. They get a party instantly when they queue. Bad random dungeon? Just get kicked and queue again.

When ZOS removed the 15 min penalty from kicked players to protect the low CP guys being kicked for selfish reasons, they also made the group finder a fake tanks' paradise.

The distinction you're trying to make is entirely meaningless to a large majority of the people who participate in these threads, in my experience. Intentions are not a factor, only how the results affect the person; which is sad.

(NOTE: Not saying that @code65536 is one of said people, btw -- I haven't kept track of individual people's stance on this)

For what little it's worth, @Meld777, I'm on your side. I've tried to argue that there is a meaningful difference between people who are trying and failing to be "good" at their role, and people who lie and have no intention of performing their role. Might have actually been in this thread, haha. But overall, most people seem to disregard, disagree, or simply not understand this point.

Everyone's a fake everything nowadays unless they are performing to a level of satisfaction that is determined at the time, by the person in question. How's that for shifting goal posts? :P