Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

MaxJrFTW

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

VaranisArano

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

WuffyCerulei

That's why I geared up a toon as a tank...! Like actual tank.

rotaugen454

Becoming?

idk

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Metafae

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

FlyingSwan

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

But we do come across a lot of fake DPS. I don't know what the base role of those fake DPS is, maybe a greengrocer or newspaper boy or something, but by god, if I have to watch another numbskull in heavy armour leaping about with a 2H sword, pulling 10k of damage and thinking he's a 'damage dealer', I'm liable to remove my own eyes with an ice cream scoop so I no longer have to see the pitiful capabilities of my fellow gamers.

idk

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

idk

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Actually players did ask for Zos do to something and they did.

Even admit it will not solve the issue if Zos required a taunt unlocked to queue as a tank (or a heal unlocked to queue as a healer).

Thing is, that is as far as Zos can go, if they ever do.

Kick the players. Kick the fake tanks.

Metafae

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

But we do come across a lot of fake DPS. I don't what the base role of those fake DPS is, maybe a greengrocer or newspaper boy or something, but by god, if I have to watch another numbskull in heavy armour leaping about with a 2H sword, pulling 10k of damage and thinking he's a 'damage dealer', I'm liable to remove my own eyes with an ice cream scoop so I no longer have to see the pitiful capabilities of my fellow gamers.

Yeah.
The day people say you need X Y and Z to queue as a tank, I want to be able to say you need 30k DPS on a 3mil Target Dummy to mark youself as a dps.

Fair is fair

Nightfall12

Maybe we can get a wave of real tanks to queue as Fake dps to pick up the fake slack the fake tanks left... any issues can be blamed on healers
/end sarcasm

Metafae

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

HazelRose

Switch to being a tank? Or start queuing for normal dungeons? I'm assuming you're attempting Vet dungeons and as much as I wish it wasn't true; it really is just better to do those as part of a guild. Personally, so much less painful to do normal pledges while being the tank.

idk

Metafae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

Yea, but many do not want to queue for a random group. That is the bigger reason. I have queued as a tank for randoms before. The DPS can be quite bad. We can call them fake DPS. I am smart enough to not do that anymore but will queue as heals since I can often to more dps than both dps combined and carry the group.

Basically, decent tanks know they can form a group in guild and avoid the issues with bad DPS in the GF. My 4 tanks stay out of random groups.

Metafae

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

Yea, but many do not want to queue for a random group. That is the bigger reason. I have queued as a tank for randoms before. The DPS can be quite bad. We can call them fake DPS. I am smart enough to not do that anymore but will queue as heals since I can often to more dps than both dps combined and carry the group.

Basically, decent tanks know they can form a group in guild and avoid the issues with bad DPS in the GF. My 4 tanks stay out of random groups.

Hit the nail on the head with this one.

I am exactly the same, I offer the solution to the fake tank problem, but I would never do it myself.

Why would I ever queue as a tank and suffer the consequences of terrible dps?

Even if I queue as a DPS, and the tank is useless, I've done enough vMA to know how to dodge mechanics and act as a pseudo tank while still keeping my DPS up.

This works in most of the older dungeons, but if it's a DLC dungeon, a vote kick is required and a stern telling off to the person who has wasted my time.

starkerealm

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

Yea, but many do not want to queue for a random group. That is the bigger reason. I have queued as a tank for randoms before. The DPS can be quite bad. We can call them fake DPS. I am smart enough to not do that anymore but will queue as heals since I can often to more dps than both dps combined and carry the group.

Basically, decent tanks know they can form a group in guild and avoid the issues with bad DPS in the GF. My 4 tanks stay out of random groups.

Which of course makes the whole thing worse, when you do get in there as a non-tank.

idk

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

Yea, but many do not want to queue for a random group. That is the bigger reason. I have queued as a tank for randoms before. The DPS can be quite bad. We can call them fake DPS. I am smart enough to not do that anymore but will queue as heals since I can often to more dps than both dps combined and carry the group.

Basically, decent tanks know they can form a group in guild and avoid the issues with bad DPS in the GF. My 4 tanks stay out of random groups.

Which of course makes the whole thing worse, when you do get in there as a non-tank.

I think you need to read what you quoted once more as I said nothing about me queuing as a fake tank.

polgarah

OP you're right, I mostly run random dungeons with my healer and I'm sick of this fake tanks. I know, as well, there're a lot of fake healers but I'd like to read about fake dd too, nobody name them. Those who do not have enough gear or even a minimal rotation and run Vet dungeons with 8k of dps. I'd really like to know how many of those dd are complaining about fake tanks and healers. Please, don't get me wrong I'm not personalizing in you OP, but nobody complains about this and it's also a real pain.

Att1Tude

Even if a tank slots taunt he can go in kidmode and wont use the taunt just because hes against the fact he cant fake tank that much anymore. Though you can always vote for replacing the tank, or GTFO. The que penalty could be 5m shorter tbh.

code65536

Why are you asking ZOS to do something about it? They already gave you the tools to do something about it. It's called vote-kick.

Maybe if a fake tank gets vote-kicked enough times, they'll stop. But most people don't do that--they just put up with them and complain on the forums about it instead; the fake tanks face no consequences and have no reason to stop.

And, yes, ZOS already did try to "do something" about it. Obviously, it didn't work, because this is a social problem, not a ZOS problem. I'm going to repost what I said about it back in July:

The changes to the dungeon queue are well-intentioned, but I don't like them.

First, because there are people who can legitimately do two roles on one character. My nightblades, for example, carry a set of heavy armor that they can swap into with a press of a button in Dressing Room. I've tanked vet DLC dungeons using them.

Second, because the people who "cheat" the system to get in faster can still keep doing so. If someone wants to queue as a "fake tank", not being able to select the DPS role isn't going to suddenly make them behave. They'll keep doing what they've always been doing.

So... basically, this solves nothing. While hampering legitimate use cases. Please reconsider, @ZOS_RichLambert

(Also, any normal non-DLC dungeon can be tanked by any DD who slots Inner Fire and knows how to block. Real tanks with 25K health and a somewhat tanky build are needed only for pre-HotR vets and for DLC normals, and serious tanks with 35K health are needed only for the HotR and later DLC vets.)

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Actually players did ask for Zos do to something and they did.

Even admit it will not solve the issue if Zos required a taunt unlocked to queue as a tank (or a heal unlocked to queue as a healer).

Thing is, that is as far as Zos can go, if they ever do.

Kick the players. Kick the fake tanks.

People were asking for ZOS to do something productive that would actually help, not just anything, and most definitely not single role queues.

AhPook_Is_Here

If everybody just queued as a tank dps waits would be much shorter.

code65536

ZeroXFF wrote: »

People were asking for ZOS to do something productive that would actually help

Like what? Post your idea, and I'll tell you why it wouldn't work.

This is a social problem. Solved by social means. I.e., being kicked from the group.

Sleep724

With the CP cap constantly being raised it makes it easier and easier to tank non-dlc dungeons as a dps. With 3 dps, sometimes 4 in those dungeons, who cares about crowd control and chaining adds when you can burn them down so quick. Slot inner fire, hold block on the wind-ups then burn the easy vet bosses.

Get in, get out, thats what she said, so that you're not wasting your time on an easy vet dungeon that you have done too many times to count.

idk

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Actually players did ask for Zos do to something and they did.

Even admit it will not solve the issue if Zos required a taunt unlocked to queue as a tank (or a heal unlocked to queue as a healer).

Thing is, that is as far as Zos can go, if they ever do.

Kick the players. Kick the fake tanks.

People were asking for ZOS to do something productive that would actually help, not just anything, and most definitely not single role queues.

I suggest you read the post Code made in this thread.

It is very clear and straight forward that Zos gave all of us the means to deal with it. Just because players choose to not vote kick while in the dungeon does not mean they do not have the power to get rid of the fake tank.

I like how Code worded it. Very well said.

D0PAMINE

code65536 wrote: »

Why are you asking ZOS to do something about it? They already gave you the tools to do something about it. It's called vote-kick.

Maybe if a fake tank gets vote-kicked enough times, they'll stop. But most people don't do that--they just put up with them and complain on the forums about it instead; the fake tanks face no consequences and have no reason to stop.

And, yes, ZOS already did try to "do something" about it. Obviously, it didn't work, because this is a social problem, not a ZOS problem. I'm going to repost what I said about it back in July:

The changes to the dungeon queue are well-intentioned, but I don't like them.

First, because there are people who can legitimately do two roles on one character. My nightblades, for example, carry a set of heavy armor that they can swap into with a press of a button in Dressing Room. I've tanked vet DLC dungeons using them.

Second, because the people who "cheat" the system to get in faster can still keep doing so. If someone wants to queue as a "fake tank", not being able to select the DPS role isn't going to suddenly make them behave. They'll keep doing what they've always been doing.

So... basically, this solves nothing. While hampering legitimate use cases. Please reconsider, @ZOS_RichLambert

(Also, any normal non-DLC dungeon can be tanked by any DD who slots Inner Fire and knows how to block. Real tanks with 25K health and a somewhat tanky build are needed only for pre-HotR vets and for DLC normals, and serious tanks with 35K health are needed only for the HotR and later DLC vets.)

Well said. Such a simple solution really is the way to deal with this because it is effective at eliminating the problem on a case by case rather than global for all those little exceptions.

Hotel6

If it's random normal I go with it. even with veteran pledges like spindleclutch 1 where u dont need a tank. Other pledges are unacceptable. My bigger problem usually is when i que for 20 minutes and i join a group on a finale boss.... which means i wont get my keys i've wasted 20 minutes on que and i have que cool down for 15 minutes. They really need to cancel that cooldown.

johnbonne

Not to be so flippant but you're dead on arrival with "solo queue". When you PuG, you're agreeing to be queued up with anyone no matter their skill, ability, class, race or willingness to compete. I think Metafae has the right answer if you want to continue PuGging - queue as a tank yourself if you think you can do better. This doesn't "fix" PuGging (there's not much else ZOS can do, and I think the more they try the more resistance there'll be), but it's your best bet until the fake tanks adjust their attitude, which begs the question: why are they the way they are? What's causing the problem in the first place? Are the rewards too good, the role the most needed, the queues too long, the punishments for failure/being kicked too easy to ignore? There's no smoke without fire, and if that fire is "people aren't taught how to tank", it's something ZOS can and should look into.

I don't want to ignore the problem, my philosophy when reviewing something is "if it's in the game, it's in the review", and if PuGging sucks it has to be addressed. In the meantime, find alternatives. When even the fake tanks see it's not worth queuing because it takes so long or people don't stick around with them, perhaps ZOS and the community will do something about it.

I don't PuG dungeons without friends, and I won't ever tank unless I'm with a full group of people I know and can give me fair criticism. I'm not risking the flak I'd get by default because I'm playing (compared to many others) a heavily role-agnostic game.

russelmmendoza

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

Ertosi

As Code put it above, vote kick is always a great option, and one I use each and every time I come across a legitimately fake role being played. But I'd still prefer to avoid the issue altogether.

Personally, I'd prefer the issue be one ZOS comes down on with a draconian iron fist and strictly enforce the chosen roles. It could be done by meeting specific criteria, like the previous suggestions of making sure the tank has a taunt slotted. The bar for the role requirements could be set really low, to allow for plenty of wiggle room for varying builds and play styles but bare minimums can be easily assigned.

Role checks:

• Tanks: Has a taunt slotted and is actually using it/holding aggro (checks for holding aggro is important in case their taunt is solely coming from gear.)
• DPS: Minimum DPS during active fight time.
• Healer: Has heals slotted and is actually using them (check for heals from both abilities and gear)

Bare minimums:

• Tanks: If you're never holding aggro and get torn through like tissue paper, you're not a tank.
• DPS: If you can't kill at least kill a trash mob on your own, you're not DPS.
• Healer: If you're never laying down love despite the rest of the group bleeding out around you, you're not a healer.

Heck, with a "role minimum" system in place, the group finder could even black out roles they aren't set up for before they even attempt to queue. Include a warning system to handle players that try to get around it by switching skills/gear after the group starts. (Ex They queued with a resto staff, then switched to bow/bow) If they fall below the bare minimum, have the system automatically initiate a vote to kick, and if they get kicked specifically for being a fake role, drastically increase their queue cool down timer, but only specifically for that role.

Obviously there will be players that hate the idea, so make it a simple option/checkbox that you turn off or on when you queue for the group finder.

Yes, its strict (which is the point), but could be done very constructively by roughly showing how close they are performing to the bare minimums (Green/Performing well > Yellow/Moderately well > Red/Performing poorly), give a summary why after a dungeon completes, and add suggestions for how to get out of the red (ex. skills that should be slotted, attribute tweaks, etc).