Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

Dymence

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So I know it's been touched on already, but need to stress that one of the biggest reasons there are so few actual tanks in this game is because of how unfun and unintuitive it is.

There are only 2 or 3 taunts in the entire game, and they're all single target. There are no threat tables, only single target taunts. I get the whole "the game isn't designed that way" argument, but that also assumes the game was well designed to begin with. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.

Tanking is just better with aoe taunts and aggro and everything other western MMO tanks have. ESO tried to be different in a lot of key MMO areas, and most of them IMO are failures. Tanking is no exception, as it is far more challenging and far less fun in this game than in other games. The end result is that, sure, some hardcores swear its better, but most players simply won't bother because they don't find it fun.

So in conclusion, if you want less "fake tanks" in this game, ZOS needs to make actual tanking more fun and interesting. In the very least, there needs to be more mob pulling abilities and an aoe taunt. Watching tanks work in this game is so clunky in this game compared to games like WoW or Rift, and at some point the whole "well it takes more skill" argument just falls on deaf ears. I think we're at that point.

I've never played another MMO, so I can't compare. But tanking is not particularly hard in ESO. It is fun, though. But really not that hard or complicated. I'd say that being a good tank is easier than being a good DD.

The problem, though, is still that tanks can't carry bad DDs. If they are queued into a bad group, they are helpless to do anything about it.

Well, for most fights it's not so hard as much as it is frustrating. Because you only have one taunt, you can only keep 2 or 3 mobs on you at a time, and that's if you're just focusing on taunting. As a result, every pull is somewhat chaotic; you've got ranged attacking the dd, melee on the healers, and usually all the mobs are spread out to the point where a single aoe circle won't even touch all of them. It's chaos.

On the tougher fights, like those in Vet DLC dungeons, there are certain mobs that will just oneshot non-tanks, so I'm told it can get very stressful. I gave up tanking shortly after I started playing, once I got into vet dungeons. We often got through, it just wasn't fun to me. I used to tank all the time in Rift and WoW, and sure I preferred dps, but it was engaging while not being overly stressful. I certainly didn't hate it like I do in this game.

It seems like in ESO, the tank has to worry less about their own survival and more about frantically making sure the heavy-hitting mobs aren't attacking the rest of your group while judging which mobs are okay to whack on the group for a while. And while they're at it, they're expected to buff the group where they can. For me, that's just not a fun prospect. It's disorganized and runs contrary to the way tanks work in every other MMO I've ever heard of.

That's exactly what makes tanking in ESO engaging though. Having to pick out the heavy hitters first and using CC to group up the rest.

ZonasArch

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

I don't have 30k health but I can tank just fine for a good part of the dungeons with a meme build. Heavy armor, taunt and cc. How hard can it really be, right? Wanna fast queue? build a tank, or tankish build and be happy.

Then again, I don't care too much about it cuz I only do harder dungeons with fixed groups and only out normals. You can have 4 DPS for normal and still be just fine.

Jeremy

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Neoealth wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

That's true.

Even on normal there are a dungeons with bosses who can easily one-shot fake tanks.

For example: I was running a normal Fang Lair one time and the boss with the ghost that chains people kept one-shotting our "tank". After the third wipe he said "Oh, I guess you need a real tank for this one" then dropped. So he was fully aware he wasn't actually a tank. He just didn't give a crap.

Not necessarily. I've got several decent tanks which I use for end-game stuff. But levelling a tank is not easy, because you can't do any damage overground. You level to 50 pretty quick but you are still lacking skills, especially as you need to unlock some DPS skills to be able to walk across overground without taking half an hour to get anywhere, or pick up skyshards in delves without grouping with somebody who can kill a wolf in under 5 minutes. I've gone into a random normal dungeon before and not been able to tank sufficiently well because my character wasn't ready. Surely better that I own up and quit - I've never seen a light attack spamming bow build voluntarily leave a dungeon. And it's a tank, how long did the replacement take to arrive? Likewise I've been in plenty of dungeons and got the blame because I can't take every piece of damage from every trash mob AND boss without any heals.

I've tried to understand this argument; that tanks lack the damage to do landscape content and therefore have trouble leveling. But I just can't. Landscape content on this game is so easy even a purely defensive character with hardly any offense should be able to easily defeat 99% of the monsters out there.

I could relate to this argument if it were made in respect to world bosses. Some of those have a lot of health and can take an unreasonable amount of time to wear down as a tank. But aside from that, I just can't understand why any tank would have trouble killing landscape monsters. In fact: slap on any decent monster set and you'll likely kill almost everything in a single rotation.

All that being said: I'm not sure what any of this had to do with my comment though. I was talking about how tanks are important even in some normal difficulty content - and gave an example.

Jeremy

Agenericname wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , apparently not enough tanks enjoy tanking then? I mean, you do enjoy it, but it's anecdotal evidence, sadly - it doesn't tell us how many other tanks do. (And queue times give us a clue: not a whole lot.) Maybe we're not witnessing the resurgence of tanking because, more interesting than in other games tanking in ESO might be, it may be still too little to make it fun. Most content doesn't require a lot of tactical thinking from tanks, so maybe content designers should try harder and then we'll see if they can break the trend?

I understand (and agree) that people enjoy dealing damage more. But I think that making tanks shine and play more dynamic and fun role would improve things. It's not a binary thing (popular vs. unpopular), it's a curve - more fun tanking, more tanks around.

I think theres more to making tanks more popular than just making them more fun. There are people that avoid tanking simply because they dont want the harsh criticism. We've already established that people are impatient, hence this thread. There's at least one post in this thread that reflects that reasoning. I seriously doubt that it's an isolated case.

Personally I dont like dragon knights. I dont have anything against them, but I dont want to play one. Wardens...I've tried. I've never seen a class that I wanted to like but couldnt as much as a Warden. Unfortunately that's the bar for tanks. Anything else is tool of limited scope. Any other class that I play, despite of how good I may be, wouldn't be welcomed outside of 4 person content, generally, and from time to time wouldn't be welcomed there.

There are more perceived barriers to tanking than DD.

That's a fair point. There is certainly more responsibility heaped onto the tank and less room for error. I'm sure that's a factor that steers players away from playing as a tank as well.

Also - and as someone who plays as a Templar tank - I can't deny Dragon Knights are probably a more optimal choice for tanking, especially at higher difficulties. But other classes can get the job done. But I take your point and you're not incorrect.

Jeremy

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

When fake tanks become an issue I just initiate a vote to kick them. If the group refuses to kick them - then I suddenly forgot how to heal them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As a Healer this is something I will never do. I won't stop healing because some fake tank is being an opportunist. I'd rather announce my leaving from the group. Hell, I heal even randoms in open world when I see them hurt. :P

I don't stop healing because some fake tank is being an opportunist. I stop healing because some fake tank is being an opportunist and the group is protecting him or her from being kicked. Though of course I still make sure to heal myself if I get into trouble - just not them. ^^ So instead of leaving or staying and being miserable trying to heal glass cannons running around like headless chickens I give them a dose of their own medicine and let them enjoy some of the misery they inflict on others for a change. And I couldn't think of a more just result if I tried. So I highly recommend you give it a try before you judge it. Because it's very amusing and satisfying and turns an otherwise annoying run into comedy gold.

Meld777

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

Agenericname

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

You're right, it would solve at least my problems. I'd likely never step foot, or paw, into a dungeon again.

Meld777

Agenericname wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

You're right, it would solve at least my problems. I'd likely never step foot, or paw, into a dungeon again.

See? And that's exactly what we want! We want the fakers to get out of the damn group finder!

Rungar wrote: »

id say your lucky to have even fake tanks.

No. I'm not waiting for 1h in queue to have it ruined by some piece of **** fake tank who decided to skip it. I wait for so long, so I can get an actual tank. I'll be glad to wait another 5 min if it guarantees me a real tank.

SickDuck

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

It would be a buff to pre-made groups and nerf to pugs. At least some fakes can “justify” being there by doing a decent damage. That would be worse with these proposed changes.

Meld777

SickDuck wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

It would be a buff to pre-made groups and nerf to pugs. At least some fakes can “justify” being there by doing a decent damage. That would be worse with these proposed changes.

No, they can't. If they wanna do "decent damage", they can queue as DD, same as me.
And I don't think it would be a buff to pre-made groups. Pre-made groups can go 4 DDs, which they still would be able to do by just porting in, without using group finder.

Fake tanks are a huge problem in ESO. The proposed solution would definitely solve it. It would remove all motivation for fakers to queue as fake: either pick your correct role (DD) or don't even queue. At the same time, it would benefit the group. Especially new players would be glad to have the extra buffs. The debuffs would ONLY affect fakers.

NordSwordnBoard

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

My tank and healer (both dedicated) would both abandon the finder and just cherry pick dps out of guilds or zone. If I can't add some group dps in a dungeon with a monster set/skill swap to help out the people lacking, I'm not going to bother. I can't speak for everyone, but dedicated support roles are in demand enough that avoiding the finder is better than gimping yourself just to benefit DDs.

Why don't the DDs in this "solution" suffer a negative stat like reduced healing or resistances? Hmmmm.

Why would you deny a random group the ability to adapt to itself?

Agenericname

Meld777 wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

You're right, it would solve at least my problems. I'd likely never step foot, or paw, into a dungeon again.

See? And that's exactly what we want! We want the fakers to get out of the damn group finder!

Rungar wrote: »

id say your lucky to have even fake tanks.

No. I'm not waiting for 1h in queue to have it ruined by some piece of **** fake tank who decided to skip it. I wait for so long, so I can get an actual tank. I'll be glad to wait another 5 min if it guarantees me a real tank.

Find a post where I've even come close to advocating fake roles. I'll wait.

Most healers dont need the additional 30% healing. You cant heal through a one-shot and the rest normally isnt over whelming. So this solution is giving nothing to healing and taking away damage from them.

Most tanks are already at or very close to resistance cap. Again, you're not giving them much, only taking away.

The only solice to be found in this idea that goes against the "play your own way" ethos so much that it'll likely never be implemented.

Vildebill

Fake tanks? Wanna hear about a real problem? Fake DDs! Every time I queue as a tank in the group finder we have like 25k group DPS with me doing like 10k just spamming heavy attacks for sustain. If it's something this player base seems unable to do it is deal enough damage as a DD.

GreenHere

Meld777 wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

You're right, it would solve at least my problems. I'd likely never step foot, or paw, into a dungeon again.

See? And that's exactly what we want! We want the fakers to get out of the damn group finder!

Did you hear that *whoooshing* sound just now? That was the point of @Agenericname's post flying right over your head, @Meld777

sampol212

I play as fake tank everyday with my DPS Warden. But... I do it only on Normal difficulty and never had any problems or complaints about that because its always a good fast run, even when I often get partied with under 50 lvl players as I'm 500 CP.

In Veteran mode that might be a problem but it normal it works perfect and I can do my daily dungeon in few minutes.

GreenHere

sampol212 wrote: »

I play as fake tank everyday with my DPS Warden. But... I do it only on Normal difficulty and never had any problems or complaints about that because its always a good fast run, even when I often get partied with under 50 lvl players as I'm 500 CP.

In Veteran mode that might be a problem but it normal it works perfect and I can do my daily dungeon in few minutes.

Then I have a simple question for you, @sampol212 : Do you slot a taunt for the mobs who matter?

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Dymence wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So I know it's been touched on already, but need to stress that one of the biggest reasons there are so few actual tanks in this game is because of how unfun and unintuitive it is.

There are only 2 or 3 taunts in the entire game, and they're all single target. There are no threat tables, only single target taunts. I get the whole "the game isn't designed that way" argument, but that also assumes the game was well designed to begin with. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.

Tanking is just better with aoe taunts and aggro and everything other western MMO tanks have. ESO tried to be different in a lot of key MMO areas, and most of them IMO are failures. Tanking is no exception, as it is far more challenging and far less fun in this game than in other games. The end result is that, sure, some hardcores swear its better, but most players simply won't bother because they don't find it fun.

So in conclusion, if you want less "fake tanks" in this game, ZOS needs to make actual tanking more fun and interesting. In the very least, there needs to be more mob pulling abilities and an aoe taunt. Watching tanks work in this game is so clunky in this game compared to games like WoW or Rift, and at some point the whole "well it takes more skill" argument just falls on deaf ears. I think we're at that point.

I've never played another MMO, so I can't compare. But tanking is not particularly hard in ESO. It is fun, though. But really not that hard or complicated. I'd say that being a good tank is easier than being a good DD.

The problem, though, is still that tanks can't carry bad DDs. If they are queued into a bad group, they are helpless to do anything about it.

Well, for most fights it's not so hard as much as it is frustrating. Because you only have one taunt, you can only keep 2 or 3 mobs on you at a time, and that's if you're just focusing on taunting. As a result, every pull is somewhat chaotic; you've got ranged attacking the dd, melee on the healers, and usually all the mobs are spread out to the point where a single aoe circle won't even touch all of them. It's chaos.

On the tougher fights, like those in Vet DLC dungeons, there are certain mobs that will just oneshot non-tanks, so I'm told it can get very stressful. I gave up tanking shortly after I started playing, once I got into vet dungeons. We often got through, it just wasn't fun to me. I used to tank all the time in Rift and WoW, and sure I preferred dps, but it was engaging while not being overly stressful. I certainly didn't hate it like I do in this game.

It seems like in ESO, the tank has to worry less about their own survival and more about frantically making sure the heavy-hitting mobs aren't attacking the rest of your group while judging which mobs are okay to whack on the group for a while. And while they're at it, they're expected to buff the group where they can. For me, that's just not a fun prospect. It's disorganized and runs contrary to the way tanks work in every other MMO I've ever heard of.

That's exactly what makes tanking in ESO engaging though. Having to pick out the heavy hitters first and using CC to group up the rest.

Meh, different strokes for different folks I guess. I just hate how disorganized it is, give me a nice dense stack of mobs all wailing on me any day over what ESO tanking is. And if you don't have chains, there aren't exactly many tools to group up mobs in this game either, that's another issue.

I'm sure there are players who appreciate the chaos and stressfulness of it all, but I'm guessing there are far more who don't, hence why tanking isn't popular in this game. Well, one of the reasons anyway.

theivorykitty

I just wish they would add an ability to queue for 3DD party mixes in addition to the typical Tank/Heal/2DD party mix. That way, people that want to do 3DD runs or are tired of waiting for a tank can decide to queue for that, and hopefully leave those that want a tank alone. I imagine it would reduce the instances of fake queuing.

Meld777

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

Why don't the DDs in this "solution" suffer a negative stat like reduced healing or resistances? Hmmmm.

Why would you deny a random group the ability to adapt to itself?

Why DDs don't suffer a negative stat? Because it's not necessary. I play since beta and have yet to meet a tank or healer that queued as DD. Well, unless there was a fake tank in group and a nice DD put on his tanking gear to make the completion of vRoM possible. But it happened just once and resulted from someone queueing as fake tank.

I don't deny a random group the ability to adapt. But even play-as-you-like ZOS based the content on tank + healer + 2 DDs, with a specific idea in mind of what a tank is. If you don't use a taunt as a tank, you hurt the group in a way not intended by ZOS.

Agenericname wrote: »

Most healers dont need the additional 30% healing. You cant heal through a one-shot and the rest normally isnt over whelming. So this solution is giving nothing to healing and taking away damage from them.

Most tanks are already at or very close to resistance cap. Again, you're not giving them much, only taking away.

The only solice to be found in this idea that goes against the "play your own way" ethos so much that it'll likely never be implemented.

Most healers do need it, as most healers are CP 200, spamming Mutagen (and only Mutagen), assuming they already morphed Regeneration. Also, probably wearing random gear. One-shots only exist in Vet DLC dungeons. What you're describing fits with the newer Vet Trials, but not dungeons. Also, the average tank in group finder is very far from resistance cap.

"Play your own way" has limits, even for ZOS. Though, in the past even infinite Meteor bazooka in PvP with Cheat Engine, that was put on YouTube, wasn't enough to justify a permanent ban, ZOS have been changing their stance a bit. Recently, many players that exploited vAS HM have been banned. They implemented balance measures in Battlegrounds and even forced players in group finder to pick one specific role instead of multiple. It is going in the right direction. As soon as someone's "play-as-you-like style" affects other players' experience, regulation can be justified.

I have never met a good fake tank. All had half my DPS at best. Perhaps it can happen that a group has two very bad (new) DDs and then a fake tank comes in and saves their day in Fungal Grotto. Not only does this scenario not teach the bad DDs how to play, but it is also an exception! Most fake tanks are quite bad to average and ruin the fun for the rest of the group.

If you wanna be that white knight that comes in and saves the group with your awesome DPS, you can still do it with the proposed implementations, do it the same way I do it: Queue as a damn DD!

SpacemanSpiff1

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

Gorath

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

I you read the whole discussion that followed @Meld777 suggestion, there are arguments against what you say. Average group finder healers need extra heals and don't contribute any significant damage. The average healer in group finder just spams mutagen. It doesn't hurt pugs that have low dps. They would get a flat 10% damage buff.

Pre-made groups can just port in and avoid the group finder buffs/ debuffs if their group composition is non-standard.

Dymence

Gorath wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

I you read the whole discussion that followed @Meld777 suggestion, there are arguments against what you say. Average group finder healers need extra heals and don't contribute any significant damage. The average healer in group finder just spams mutagen. It doesn't hurt pugs that have low dps. They would get a flat 10% damage buff.

Pre-made groups can just port in and avoid the group finder buffs/ debuffs if their group composition is non-standard.

10% damage buff of 5k dps is 500 dps

Enjoy healing or tanking for DDs like that with a -80% dmg modifier for yourself

GreenHere

Gorath wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

I you read the whole discussion that followed @Meld777 suggestion, there are arguments against what you say. Average group finder healers need extra heals and don't contribute any significant damage. The average healer in group finder just spams mutagen. It doesn't hurt pugs that have low dps. They would get a flat 10% damage buff.

Pre-made groups can just port in and avoid the group finder buffs/ debuffs if their group composition is non-standard.

While I get what you're saying, the suggestion (and defense argument) are flawed; they are based on a certain type of random group in mind.

If you've ever been a healer with a group of people who collectively can't spit out 15k damage somecrazyhow, you can easily end up doing 75%+ of the group damage just by switching bars and handling the dps yourself. The proposal above kills that option. Furthermore, healers have a hard enough time feeling like they're worthwhile as is -- kicking their ability to contribute dps in the nuts is not a good way to encourage them to join random groups.

Meld777

Dymence wrote: »

10% damage buff of 5k dps is 500 dps

Enjoy healing or tanking for DDs like that with a -80% dmg modifier for yourself

For Healers: 80% of 100 dps is 80 dps.
For Tanks: 80% of 2k dps is 1.6k dps.

At least that's my experience with average Healers and Tanks in group finder. Again, if you wanna be the white knight that comes in and saves the group with your awesome deeps, queue as a damn DD!

Agenericname

Meld777 wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

Why don't the DDs in this "solution" suffer a negative stat like reduced healing or resistances? Hmmmm.

Why would you deny a random group the ability to adapt to itself?

Why DDs don't suffer a negative stat? Because it's not necessary. I play since beta and have yet to meet a tank or healer that queued as DD. Well, unless there was a fake tank in group and a nice DD put on his tanking gear to make the completion of vRoM possible. But it happened just once and resulted from someone queueing as fake tank.

I don't deny a random group the ability to adapt. But even play-as-you-like ZOS based the content on tank + healer + 2 DDs, with a specific idea in mind of what a tank is. If you don't use a taunt as a tank, you hurt the group in a way not intended by ZOS.

Agenericname wrote: »

Most healers dont need the additional 30% healing. You cant heal through a one-shot and the rest normally isnt over whelming. So this solution is giving nothing to healing and taking away damage from them.

Most tanks are already at or very close to resistance cap. Again, you're not giving them much, only taking away.

The only solice to be found in this idea that goes against the "play your own way" ethos so much that it'll likely never be implemented.

Most healers do need it, as most healers are CP 200, spamming Mutagen (and only Mutagen), assuming they already morphed Regeneration. Also, probably wearing random gear. One-shots only exist in Vet DLC dungeons. What you're describing fits with the newer Vet Trials, but not dungeons. Also, the average tank in group finder is very far from resistance cap.

"Play your own way" has limits, even for ZOS. Though, in the past even infinite Meteor bazooka in PvP with Cheat Engine, that was put on YouTube, wasn't enough to justify a permanent ban, ZOS have been changing their stance a bit. Recently, many players that exploited vAS HM have been banned. They implemented balance measures in Battlegrounds and even forced players in group finder to pick one specific role instead of multiple. It is going in the right direction. As soon as someone's "play-as-you-like style" affects other players' experience, regulation can be justified.

I have never met a good fake tank. All had half my DPS at best. Perhaps it can happen that a group has two very bad (new) DDs and then a fake tank comes in and saves their day in Fungal Grotto. Not only does this scenario not teach the bad DDs how to play, but it is also an exception! Most fake tanks are quite bad to average and ruin the fun for the rest of the group.

If you wanna be that white knight that comes in and saves the group with your awesome DPS, you can still do it with the proposed implementations, do it the same way I do it: Queue as a damn DD!

Healers with 200 CP spamming mutagen (and only mutagen) would definitely fall into fake role category. You're willing to make a system to accommodate them but not fake tanks? Or is the intent to make fake roles viable across the board?

Real healers dont need the buff.

This system only punishes those that perform their roles and offers no incentive.

Theres a difference between banning someone for using an exploit that's clearly against the ToS and forcing a playstyle on characters that ARE playing within the boundaries of the ToS.

TheGreatBlackBear

I personally vote to kick. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday. It doesn't matter if it's Fungal Grotto I It's about principle and respect. I can't see any measure changing the fake tank problem as people seem to think it's their divine right to do whatever they want.

Royaji

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

Honestly this suggestion is very in sync with ZOS's way of balancing. Drop a nuke on a problem and call it a day. Sure, if you make all tanks leave the groupfinder all the fake tanks will disappear as well.

Me and several other experienced tanks have explained to you why it is such a problem to find a tank in groupfinder. We never queue on our tanks. Because we are completely helpless when we get 10k DPS light-attack spammers. We can't carry them. And we do not want to spend an hour in a 15-minute dungeon. Your suggestion only makes it worse and puts healers in the same boat.

The issue of "too many fake tanks" is solved by dealing with "not enough real tanks" (I'm talking strictly in groupfinder). Once DD queue is decreased to 10 minutes people will stop queing as fake tanks. But to achieve that you have to encourage real tanks to queue, not deter them.

GreenHere

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I personally vote to kick. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday. It doesn't matter if it's Fungal Grotto I It's about principle and respect. I can't see any measure changing the fake tank problem as people seem to think it's their divine right to do whatever they want.

I like you.

TheGreatBlackBear

@Royaji I can't tell you the last time I queued for a dungeon as a DPS. It just takes too long. Rolling a random can take between half an hour to an hour maybe more if I'm unlucky. Not to mention queueing for specific dungeons. Oh lord that can take close to three hours. We definitely need more tanks. And because you never know what you'll roll (it's random for a reason) I don't feel comfortable slotting vigor or some other skill and going fake healer. Fake tank is never an option. So I have grown 780 toons who have never seen the inside of FG1

Tan9oSuccka

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

He does. Make your own tank and eliminate the possibility of “clever” damage guys trying to be tanks for faster groups.

Do you?