Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

LittlePinkDot

Has anyone bothered to ask WHY there are people trying to do Vet when they cant do the job? Im sure its painful for them too, im sure they know they suck.
They probably just want the monster helmet. If Zos just let them drop in Normal, I bet alot of these fake tanks and fake dps would disappear.

doggie

code65536 wrote: »

I've never played another MMO, so I can't compare. But tanking is not particularly hard in ESO. It is fun, though. But really not that hard or complicated. I'd say that being a good tank is easier than being a good DD.

The problem, though, is still that tanks can't carry bad DDs. If they are queued into a bad group, they are helpless to do anything about it.

In most other games I've played you have to build up hate on the boss to tank. In some games like Vanilla Wow, you could build up so much hate that you could DC for a few minutes and relog and your character would still have aggro when you got back.

Age of Conan probably had the most advanced and enjoyable hate generation in any game I've played. Tanking was a skill, and you only stayed a single rotation or two infront of the dps, one little slipup and you lost aggro.

In many games you also need 2 tanks that swap the boss between them and that also takes skill since tank 2 have to be just behind tank 1 in hate generation but ahead of DPS.

In ESO you basicly can't loose aggro as long as you keep taunting.

Agenericname

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Has anyone bothered to ask WHY there are people trying to do Vet when they cant do the job? Im sure its painful for them too, im sure they know they suck.
They probably just want the monster helmet. If Zos just let them drop in Normal, I bet alot of these fake tanks and fake dps would disappear.

Theres a difference between someone who performs their role poorly or below the expectations of others and someone who queues into a role knowing that they're not going to perform those functions.

No, they wouldnt go away. They're not always there for monster helms. They're there for the keys, crystals, undaunted pledges, and/or gear. We may see a slight decrease in overall numbers, but it wouldnt be significant by any stretch of the imagination.

People who struggle to perform their role, are new to a dungeon/mechanics, etc, are an entirely different animal. They typically dont provoke the same ire that fake roles do. Most people ackowledge the difference between the 2 groups, unless you're talking about DDs, then the lines blur.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

code65536 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So I know it's been touched on already, but need to stress that one of the biggest reasons there are so few actual tanks in this game is because of how unfun and unintuitive it is.

There are only 2 or 3 taunts in the entire game, and they're all single target. There are no threat tables, only single target taunts. I get the whole "the game isn't designed that way" argument, but that also assumes the game was well designed to begin with. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.

Tanking is just better with aoe taunts and aggro and everything other western MMO tanks have. ESO tried to be different in a lot of key MMO areas, and most of them IMO are failures. Tanking is no exception, as it is far more challenging and far less fun in this game than in other games. The end result is that, sure, some hardcores swear its better, but most players simply won't bother because they don't find it fun.

So in conclusion, if you want less "fake tanks" in this game, ZOS needs to make actual tanking more fun and interesting. In the very least, there needs to be more mob pulling abilities and an aoe taunt. Watching tanks work in this game is so clunky in this game compared to games like WoW or Rift, and at some point the whole "well it takes more skill" argument just falls on deaf ears. I think we're at that point.

I've never played another MMO, so I can't compare. But tanking is not particularly hard in ESO. It is fun, though. But really not that hard or complicated. I'd say that being a good tank is easier than being a good DD.

The problem, though, is still that tanks can't carry bad DDs. If they are queued into a bad group, they are helpless to do anything about it.

Well, for most fights it's not so hard as much as it is frustrating. Because you only have one taunt, you can only keep 2 or 3 mobs on you at a time, and that's if you're just focusing on taunting. As a result, every pull is somewhat chaotic; you've got ranged attacking the dd, melee on the healers, and usually all the mobs are spread out to the point where a single aoe circle won't even touch all of them. It's chaos.

On the tougher fights, like those in Vet DLC dungeons, there are certain mobs that will just oneshot non-tanks, so I'm told it can get very stressful. I gave up tanking shortly after I started playing, once I got into vet dungeons. We often got through, it just wasn't fun to me. I used to tank all the time in Rift and WoW, and sure I preferred dps, but it was engaging while not being overly stressful. I certainly didn't hate it like I do in this game.

It seems like in ESO, the tank has to worry less about their own survival and more about frantically making sure the heavy-hitting mobs aren't attacking the rest of your group while judging which mobs are okay to whack on the group for a while. And while they're at it, they're expected to buff the group where they can. For me, that's just not a fun prospect. It's disorganized and runs contrary to the way tanks work in every other MMO I've ever heard of.

HeroOfNone

Most are rolling the dice they can get a dungeon that's easy enough to 3 dps/heal through. The "fix" that ZOS could do is raise up the bar on all dungeons so players would actually need to tank, making it so there is no easy dungeon. Most would get upset at this I think.

Alternatively I would just try and teach most "fake" tanks there are easier ways than just faking the role, to just carry an alternate armor set or two, learn boss fights, and anyone can tank relatively the same. Though conquering certain DLC dungeons will take a bit more.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

But we do come across a lot of fake DPS. I don't know what the base role of those fake DPS is, maybe a greengrocer or newspaper boy or something, but by god, if I have to watch another numbskull in heavy armour leaping about with a 2H sword, pulling 10k of damage and thinking he's a 'damage dealer', I'm liable to remove my own eyes with an ice cream scoop so I no longer have to see the pitiful capabilities of my fellow gamers.

Don't be too quick to judge a player with a 2H weapon. I have seen a few that pull 40K DPS with that 2H weapon and the rest of their rotation in Vet HM content. Two of these players are in my guild and we have done all content in Vet and most in HM. I too use to be "that guy with the 2H sucks!" until I ran into these two guys. Now they don't wear all heavy of course, they do the 5/1/1 setup for PVE but both use their 2H weapons. One is a DK the other has a Stam Warden and a Stamina Sorc. The guy with two Stamina toons pulls a consistent 57K DPS on a test dummy. Everything disintegrates when he is in our group.

TheDarkShadow

I am a tank, enjoy tanking, I'm fine with single target taunt and the sustain mini-game in ESO and I don't queue in group finder (not without at least 2 DDs I know). The MAIN reason is DDs that do 10k or lower dps. As someone already said in this thread, as tank I have the privilege to choose group.

Eso101rus

Fake tanks have been a real problem for a while, there is no answer to the problem, some people are intent on putting square pegs in round holes. Even ‘tanks’ need educating, I had one turn up yesterday running ransack instead of pierce armour which was zero help to my magica toons dps. After telling him he proceeded to tell me that he was into darknet and I should expect a ban😂😂😂

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Fake Tanks have been and apparently always will be an issue in the Group Finder. I never played WOW but apparently WOW has a system in place where the player cannot run a role they are not setup for. I agree though, there needs to be something done to stop the Fake Tanks.

pelle412

code65536 wrote: »

Fake DDs are why I and most tanks I know won't solo-queue in the Group Finder as a tank.

This is so true and can easily ruin the experience for a seasoned tank. I will not PUG a vet dungeon in a pure tank setup. I'll go sword/shield and maelstrom bow bar with powerful assault so I can pull 20-25k dps while I tank. In a pre-formed group I can run as a pure tank.

El_Borracho

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

I get what you are saying, but if you are going to DPS, queue as a DPS. I feel like this behavior only breeds the annoying fake tanks in vet dungeons. Which then leads to fake tanks in vet dungeons who join with a friend so you can't kick them. Which leads to quitting and 15 minute penalty times. All because someone fake tanked because they didn't want to wait in line with the rest of us DPS players.

GreenHere

I think a lot of people here are getting a little too liberal with their use of the label "fake"; specifically applying it to "fake" dps/dd.

There's a significant difference between people who want to do damage, but simply aren't good at it and don't know how to do better vs. people who are willing to jump the queue for their own benefit, but don't even have the baseline courtesy to slot a taunt.

Furthermore, y'all are sort of derailing the OP's thread. They're trying to draw attention to the former, not the latter. Go make your own thread about addressing "fake" damage dealers if it's worth it to you -- that is a problem we could more reasonably address as a community! Most of those people actually want to do the role they apply for, and would be happy to learn how to do it better.

doggie

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Fake Tanks have been and apparently always will be an issue in the Group Finder. I never played WOW but apparently WOW has a system in place where the player cannot run a role they are not setup for. I agree though, there needs to be something done to stop the Fake Tanks.

In TSW they had the Gatekeeper that you had to complete to do the hardmode dungeons. It was very controversial, and you could complete it as a tank and do the dungeon as a DPS as there was no dungeon finder at launch.

It sure made sure that teams were much better prepared than what we see today in ESO. But many players hated it too as they couldn't complete it.

One way you could do it a little softer is that there could be a DPS check in ESO like the gatekeeper but it would be optional to do it. Players could however check if they wanted to only play with people who have completed the gatekeeper, as an alternative to not using the dungeon finder.

In ESO the gatekeeper could be something VERY simple, like an achivement to kill the 3m skelly in less than 2m, and you could choose to only be matched with people who complete it. There could be like a simple solo instance with a 3m skelly in it and kill it in 2m and you get the achivment.

GreenHere

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , I think @GreenHere meant general waiting times in queue for DDs, not the cooldown. Fake tanks will shrug, queue up and they're in a dungeon again; DDs will return to the tail of the queue and will be waiting for their turn again.

And yes, my point was in that not enough people are enjoying it. Why, seems like trying to make it more enjoyable is a no-brainer.

Nope, @Jeremy seems to have understood me right, @John_Falstaff. Unless I'm mistaken, when you're kicked from a dungeon, there's no penalty that locks you out of using the group finder like there is if you voluntarily leave or disband the group. Which is asinine.

It's been a (long) while since I learned this, so it's possible it's been changed or even that I simply misremembered or was misinformed; but I'm under this impression until proven otherwise. I'll test it later once I can get online.

weg0

It’s been said before and I’ll say it again, fake dps is by far a bigger problem.

Fcs, watch a build video or two.

El_Borracho

@GreenHere I completely agree. Its one thing to queue as a DPS, show up as a DPS, and be a really bad DPS. I think at some point in this game, everyone has had an bad day at DPS in a dungeon.

Its a whole other thing to cue as a tank, understanding people are expecting you to tank, only to DPS. In most vet dungeons, a tank is the ONLY vital team member. Vital, in that without someone taunting and taking control of the boss, nobody else has the chance to DPS or heal. And because there was no tank, they never did. Which is what makes people so, so angry. And rightfully so.

pelle412

Bad DPS was only brought up as an explanation of why you see fewer real tanks using the dungeon finder.

SickDuck

code65536 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

People were asking for ZOS to do something productive that would actually help

Like what? Post your idea, and I'll tell you why it wouldn't work.

This is a social problem. Solved by social means. I.e., being kicked from the group.

I’m a big fan of well placed vote-to-kicks but it won’t solve many things. First of all peole are afraid to use it and abuse it many times. But the real issue is it is reactive not proactive. It takes time and the benefit of doubt not to be jerks and vote kick everyone before the first boss encounter. Then the group gets stuck waiting, depending on the status of GF... etc. Also, I don’t like that ZOS gives us bad tools ignoring reality and then the players meant to be responsible to sort it out?

Lets say all start kicking fakes and those b.tards learn their lesson not to queue as tanks. Results: even longer queue times for dds. Either ZOS finds a way to increase the tank population or accepts the fact that 25% of playerbase never play as a tank and adjust GF usage accordingly. Funny thing their dungeon designs already did this with certain levels since 3-4 dd runs are common.

El_Borracho

pelle412 wrote: »

Lets say all start kicking fakes and those b.tards learn their lesson not to queue as tanks. Results: even longer queue times for dds. Either ZOS finds a way to increase the tank population or accepts the fact that 25% of playerbase never play as a tank and adjust GF usage accordingly. Funny thing their dungeon designs already did this with certain levels since 3-4 dd runs are common.

I disagree. Where do you think the fake tank goes after repeatedly failing and/or getting kicked? Into the DPS queue. But before that happens, the fake tank has wasted at least 20 minutes of, at the minimum, 3 other players' time. Then those 3 players have to wait to queue for a real tank, hoping they don't get another fake tank, while the original fake tank either rinses and repeats, ruining another 3 player's next 20 minutes, or gives up and queues as a DPS.

I will gladly wait 20-30 minutes queuing as a DPS if that means when I arrive in a vet dungeon, there is a real tank waiting for me. It doesn't even have to be a great tank, just a real one. Because the alternative of waiting 20 minutes in the Dungeon Finder queue, only to find out on the first boss of vMOS that the tank is a bad DPS in disguise, being forced to quit because the fake tank's buddy won't vote to kick him, only to wait out my penalty time of another 15 minutes just so I can have to opportunity to wait another 20 minutes in the DPS queue IS MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

Always kick fake tanks.

RodneyRegis

Jeremy wrote: »

Neoealth wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

That's true.

Even on normal there are a dungeons with bosses who can easily one-shot fake tanks.

For example: I was running a normal Fang Lair one time and the boss with the ghost that chains people kept one-shotting our "tank". After the third wipe he said "Oh, I guess you need a real tank for this one" then dropped. So he was fully aware he wasn't actually a tank. He just didn't give a crap.

Not necessarily. I've got several decent tanks which I use for end-game stuff. But levelling a tank is not easy, because you can't do any damage overground. You level to 50 pretty quick but you are still lacking skills, especially as you need to unlock some DPS skills to be able to walk across overground without taking half an hour to get anywhere, or pick up skyshards in delves without grouping with somebody who can kill a wolf in under 5 minutes. I've gone into a random normal dungeon before and not been able to tank sufficiently well because my character wasn't ready. Surely better that I own up and quit - I've never seen a light attack spamming bow build voluntarily leave a dungeon. And it's a tank, how long did the replacement take to arrive? Likewise I've been in plenty of dungeons and got the blame because I can't take every piece of damage from every trash mob AND boss without any heals.

SickDuck

El_Borracho wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Lets say all start kicking fakes and those b.tards learn their lesson not to queue as tanks. Results: even longer queue times for dds. Either ZOS finds a way to increase the tank population or accepts the fact that 25% of playerbase never play as a tank and adjust GF usage accordingly. Funny thing their dungeon designs already did this with certain levels since 3-4 dd runs are common.

I disagree. Where do you think the fake tank goes after repeatedly failing and/or getting kicked? Into the DPS queue. But before that happens, the fake tank has wasted at least 20 minutes of, at the minimum, 3 other players' time. Then those 3 players have to wait to queue for a real tank, hoping they don't get another fake tank, while the original fake tank either rinses and repeats, ruining another 3 player's next 20 minutes, or gives up and queues as a DPS.

I will gladly wait 20-30 minutes queuing as a DPS if that means when I arrive in a vet dungeon, there is a real tank waiting for me. It doesn't even have to be a great tank, just a real one. Because the alternative of waiting 20 minutes in the Dungeon Finder queue, only to find out on the first boss of vMOS that the tank is a bad DPS in disguise, being forced to quit because the fake tank's buddy won't vote to kick him, only to wait out my penalty time of another 15 minutes just so I can have to opportunity to wait another 20 minutes in the DPS queue IS MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

Always kick fake tanks.

Maybe I was not clear. I'm not saying fakes should not be kicked. I'm saying vote-to-kick is not a solution to this issue. It's a weak band aid at most. ZOS should not sit back and relax and leave the rest to the "community". I'm pretty sure noone ever felt fully satisfied after a run where vote-to-kick had to be applied. If you think people will learn from being kicked out of runs then I call you naive. Heck, they haven't learnt to use the kick option properly after 2 years!

PathwayM

I usually run something I can solo with, queue as tank, slot inner fire and good 2 go

Myyth

Att1Tude wrote: »

Even if a tank slots taunt he can go in kidmode and wont use the taunt just because hes against the fact he cant fake tank that much anymore. Though you can always vote for replacing the tank, or GTFO. The que penalty could be 5m shorter tbh.

all a person would have to do is quickly level up one hand and sword to get the taunt which would take about 5 min or just take the taunt from the undaunted skill line.
then the fake tank would slot the taunt skill, get a nice instant queue, then remove taunt and switch back to DPS.
Problem not solved.

I really do not know what ZoS can do to fix this. the game system is different than others and allows too much flexibility to enforce roles.

MaleAmazon

I really do not know what ZoS can do to fix this. the game system is different than others and allows too much flexibility to enforce roles.

Add pest button.

Now granted, it would be reactive rather than proactive, the first time around. However I don´t think there is any possible way around that. "You must slot taunt" etc is just daft, I can queue while DPSing overland and then I switch to tank gear and skills in the dungeon, Clark Kent style. And there is, as was pointed out, no guarantee that it is a proper tank just because they have inner fire on the backbar.

So long as pested, the player would not be grouped with you. If pesting was easy enough, the pest would have longer queue times which defeats their purpose for faking in the first place.

El_Borracho

SickDuck wrote: »

Maybe I was not clear. I'm not saying fakes should not be kicked. I'm saying vote-to-kick is not a solution to this issue. It's a weak band aid at most. ZOS should not sit back and relax and leave the rest to the "community". I'm pretty sure noone ever felt fully satisfied after a run where vote-to-kick had to be applied. If you think people will learn from being kicked out of runs then I call you naive. Heck, they haven't learnt to use the kick option properly after 2 years!

I 100% agree with you here. There has to be a better preventative solution. I liked some suggestions of having to slot particular abilities and armor types. You would hope some knob wouldn't try to DPS in full heavy armor with a sword and board. You would hope...

I was toying with the idea of a system where players could report a fake tank like they do with goons in area chat. So if you get enough reports, ZOS takes a look at what you are doing and bans you for a time from Dungeon Finder if you are queuing an obvious DPS build as a tank. I realize this could be ripe for abuse, but at least it would take some of the routine offenders out of the mix for a while. For all the grief ZOS takes, they are very good at responding to in-game problems.

Gargis

It’s not enough to make taunt a requirement. They need to make the heavy armor passives a requirement also scaled for level.

If they did this, it would suck up enough points to push commital to a true tank build.

Really, not that many ppl interested in making a hybrid tank/dps leaning on tank side.

VaranisArano

Gargis wrote: »

It’s not enough to make taunt a requirement. They need to make the heavy armor passives a requirement also scaled for level.

If they did this, it would suck up enough points to push commital to a true tank build.

Really, not that many ppl interested in making a hybrid tank/dps leaning on tank side.

In normal dungeons, heavy armor is unnecessary if you know the mechanics well enough to tank. I've done well with a medium armor and a light armor tank, just slot a taunt, a bit of crowd control, and know the mechanics.

MaleAmazon

They need to make the heavy armor passives a requirement also scaled for level.

Err, no. My main is a medium armor DPS. But for dailies, I quickly switch to Chudan + 5p Fortified Brass (in medium) + Endurance jewelry + maelstrom weapons. Voilà, tank with 30 k hp and max resistances, and a way shorter queue. Tanked everyting up to vet Bloodroot Forge in PUGs.

Not all tanks are tin cans.

idk

SickDuck wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Actually players did ask for Zos do to something and they did.

Even admit it will not solve the issue if Zos required a taunt unlocked to queue as a tank (or a heal unlocked to queue as a healer).

Thing is, that is as far as Zos can go, if they ever do.

Kick the players. Kick the fake tanks.

Players asked ZOS to do something and they did something stupid. GF needs radical changes to adopt to the playerbase not the other way round. This game will never have 25% players speced as tanks (unless we cound pvp...) so might as well give people option to run 3dd setups in randoms.

There are some many things that could be as should be done with GF to get there, starting from separating DLC dungeons from others. Also it would help massively if there were role based requirements for the random reward. Like ‘taunt boss targets X-times during the run’ for tanks or ‘do at least XXX damage during the run’ for DDs or ‘cast heal or damage shields on other players for XXX damage’ for healers. BGs already have some eligibility requirements for the daily reward by giving it only to the first and second teams.

The list of opportunities is long but as long ZOS only experiments with 5 minute quick patches and leave the rest for the community for sort out, it will never work.

You quote a statement where two people have clearly agreed that the fake tank issue would not be resolved even if Zos requiring a taunt be unlocked for someone to queue as a tank, yet talked around that as though you really did not read the post.

Zos already gave us the tools to deal with fake tanks but it seems most are content letting the fake tanks get their clear and then complain about it in the forums. Talk about something not making sense.

Here are links to the two posts in this thread that make the most sense.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5537855/#Comment_5537855
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5537870/#Comment_5537870

The first one is what makes sense. The second one seems to be for those that ignore the first.

Of course the reason tanks do not queue for GF is because of the poor dps we often find in the GF. I prefer to queue as a healer/DPS, though now I can only queue as a healer. That way I can keep the group alive and do more dps than all combined.

Rungar

id say your lucky to have even fake tanks.