Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

GreasyDave

I hate to say it but i dont think its fixable.
Its all about me- is the basic problem here and in pugs its just bad luck if you meet a creep like that.

It doesnt have to be fake tank. Its just general arrogance. Yesterday i pugged vet direfrost. The second dps was a bow build doing less than 10k. I asked the group not to read the scroll because the group dps was too low. Of course the healer reads the scroll? After the wipe i trigger doddra b4 the healer can read the scroll and the healer drops group, followed by bow build?

In the afternoon i went back with a guildie. Used finder for the healer and dps. At the start i asked if we could skip hm because i didnt want to waste time again. Second dps says sure, he finds doddra difficult, tank says sure. Healer 303 cp says he can kill every boss in game. At doddra, tank triggers boss, we start dps, healer suicides and spends the whole fight refusing to rez telling us we MUST read the scroll??

Whether its a fake tank or an arrogant child, people are *** unfortunately. Thats pugging

Numerikuu

Metafae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

I was just being facetious.

My point is that there aren't enough actual tanks queuing, if you want a quick fix to this problem, queue as an actual tank.

It not only fixes the issue of you yourself seeing a fake tank, but you just saved 3 innocent people from getting one too.

I did this in the end...but ended up with the reverse issue. Either ended up with *** poor dps, or a fake healer.

Honestly, if tanking wasn't so mind-numbingly boring and overly homogenized we wouldn't have this issue to begin with.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Why we need a ratings system/experience indicator, not just a checkbox.

No, no, and no. Rating systems always end up abused, easily bought, or boosted via alt accounts. As for an experience indicator, while it's a nice thought it would only further increase elitist toxicity, and we get enough of that from dps parses. Would suck to be kicked for not having 'experience' in something when you're trying to get said experience by participating in the content.

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , apparently not enough tanks enjoy tanking then? I mean, you do enjoy it, but it's anecdotal evidence, sadly - it doesn't tell us how many other tanks do. (And queue times give us a clue: not a whole lot.) Maybe we're not witnessing the resurgence of tanking because, more interesting than in other games tanking in ESO might be, it may be still too little to make it fun. Most content doesn't require a lot of tactical thinking from tanks, so maybe content designers should try harder and then we'll see if they can break the trend?

I understand (and agree) that people enjoy dealing damage more. But I think that making tanks shine and play more dynamic and fun role would improve things. It's not a binary thing (popular vs. unpopular), it's a curve - more fun tanking, more tanks around.

Jeremy

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

doggie wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

How would you make it more attractive though? If you make tanking more attractive in terms of loot and rewards, you'll get even more bad players abusing the system and queuing as fake tanks.

Could be Tank specific rewards, not new motifs or anything valuable. Like Tank gear. One thing that annoy me is that Tanks are "forced" to wear a few specific sets like ebon/alkosh, because they're the best. And prevents the tanks from experimenting with the many other cool sets.

One way could be that tanks could earn the right to always have the 5th set bonus from a set they have in their bank or inv. But can choose to wear another armor. That wat they can escape the Alkosh/Ebon curse and wear something more fun, and experiment like DPS. This could work only in PVe and not in Cyrodil or BG for example.

They could also increase the Damage bosses do this way, so you would also need those Tanky /heal builds.

Why are tanks forced to wear those two sets?

I tank vet dungeons all the time. I've never worn either.

Those are trial tank sets, used to boost the group to ensure maximum efficiency at clearing the content.

They arent as beneficial in group dungeons, especially if you PUG regularly.

I run Ebon when I PUG anyway, because I have it and no one's complained about 1k extra health yet. Plus, it sorta advertises that I'm an actual tank, you know? Nobody worries that I dont have a taunt when I show up with sword and board and those red glowy balls floating around.

Fun fact: if you wear two of the glowy ball sets, they'll sync up when you transit. So my Ebon + Worm gives me glowy/strobing purple floating balls, which is great for getting people to ask what set I'm wearing.

If you want to wear the Ebon set by my guest. The little red balls do look kinda cool and I wasn't criticizing tanks who wear it.

But someone is hardly forced into wearing that set as a tank and there are plenty of other good sets out there you can use. That's all I was saying.

Strider__Roshin

I tank dungeons on vet Hard Mode on my magsorc with 14k health. 30k+ isn't necessary if you use shields lol. But that's on live. Next update I won't be able to do that with a full glass cannon spec.

DoonerSeraph

I think a good compromise would be opening 3 extra options to people who queue.

1. "I'm willing to accept a group with no tank" (3 dps 1 healer)
2. "I'willing to accept a group with no healer" (3 dps 1 tank)
3. "I'm willing to accept a 4 dps group"

That way most people who are confident in their abilities can go 4 DPS and try to clear the dungeon. But if they fail and come here on the forums to cry, please point me to the thread so I can laugh my arse off 😃

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , apparently not enough tanks enjoy tanking then? I mean, you do enjoy it, but it's anecdotal evidence, sadly - it doesn't tell us how many other tanks do. (And queue times give us a clue: not a whole lot.) Maybe we're not witnessing the resurgence of tanking because, more interesting than in other games tanking in ESO might be, it may be still too little to make it fun. Most content doesn't require a lot of tactical thinking from tanks, so maybe content designers should try harder and then we'll see if they can break the trend?

I understand (and agree) that people enjoy dealing damage more. But I think that making tanks shine and play more dynamic and fun role would improve things. It's not a binary thing (popular vs. unpopular), it's a curve - more fun tanking, more tanks around.

I've admitted those who enjoy it are in the minority. So if that's your point - I'm not going to dispute it.

Just my experience on other games has taught me I don't think it matters how much tactical thinking they give tanks or how dynamic they make them - a majority of players are still going to prefer offensive damage-dealing classes. But if ZOS wants to try and improve tanking on this game I won't object.

VaranisArano

My problem with the "Well, if you just played a tank, there'd be more tanks" argument is as follows:

I main a tank. I love tanking. I can also take any one of the DDs into a normal dungeon, slot a taunt, and tank (and not die), because I know the mechanics really well. With a little adjustment on their builds (1H&S, crowd control skills, a little beefier, etc.) I can effectively tank normal dungeons on 9 out of 11 characters. Those 2 remaining? One's a mule - forget her. The last one? That's my healer.

9 characters I could run in dungeons as an actual tank. 1 healer.

Guess where I meet the most annoying fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt while the boss is wailing on me 3/4th of the fight? Or that one fake tank jerk who screamed at a newbie DD for kiting with boss aggro when the fake tank wasnt using a taunt?

Its on my healer. My one healer. The one character I log onto when I don't want to tank for once!

So I'm sitting there. Healing, DPSing, buffing AND taking boss aggro thinking "Remind me why I didnt just queue up on my tank? I'd do a better job than this guy, but no, I wanted something different..."

FlyingSwan

Jeremy wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

Indeed. Currently, tanking is one of those jobs you do because you know no one else is going to do it, or if they do, they'll do it badly. Like washing up, or clearing a blocked lavatory.

There are people out there who enjoy tanking (I'm one of them).

So that's not always the case. There are people who do enjoy the play style.

.

I do enjoy it BTW. But I think it's true the play rewards are perhaps a little less accessible than classic DPS stuff. It's something of a servant leader role.

GreenHere

One of the worst things about this whole issue (unless this has been changed recently) is that if you do vote-kick the selfish jackass who queued up as a fake tank, they get no penalty; they can just queue right back up and be in a dungeon again in ~30s! But if you opt to leave because a fake tank brought a stupid friend, well... sucks to be you, sucka! Have fun waiting around for 15 minutes, you dirty quitter!

Like... wut?

Jeremy

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

Indeed. Currently, tanking is one of those jobs you do because you know no one else is going to do it, or if they do, they'll do it badly. Like washing up, or clearing a blocked lavatory.

There are people out there who enjoy tanking (I'm one of them).

So that's not always the case. There are people who do enjoy the play style.

.

I do enjoy it BTW. But I think it's true the play rewards are perhaps a little less accessible than classic DPS stuff. It's something of a servant leader role.

I'm just trying to figure out why people are suggesting tanking is so boring when compared to other roles on this game. Because i don't get it, frankly. They're actually more active in my experience. They have to be more aware - they have to move around a lot more taunting everything - they have to pay a lot more attention to the enemies so they can block/stun etc.

If anything, I would say that tanking was one of the more active roles on this game. But I would agree with you it's less accessible - especially on more difficult content.

Jeremy

VaranisArano wrote: »

My problem with the "Well, if you just played a tank, there'd be more tanks" argument is as follows:

I main a tank. I love tanking. I can also take any one of the DDs into a normal dungeon, slot a taunt, and tank (and not die), because I know the mechanics really well. With a little adjustment on their builds (1H&S, crowd control skills, a little beefier, etc.) I can effectively tank normal dungeons on 9 out of 11 characters. Those 2 remaining? One's a mule - forget her. The last one? That's my healer.

9 characters I could run in dungeons as an actual tank. 1 healer.

Guess where I meet the most annoying fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt while the boss is wailing on me 3/4th of the fight? Or that one fake tank jerk who screamed at a newbie DD for kiting with boss aggro when the fake tank wasnt using a taunt?

Its on my healer. My one healer. The one character I log onto when I don't want to tank for once!

So I'm sitting there. Healing, DPSing, buffing AND taking boss aggro thinking "Remind me why I didnt just queue up on my tank? I'd do a better job than this guy, but no, I wanted something different..."

That's when fake takes bother me the most too, when I'm on the healer. I play on my healer to take a break from tanking - not so i can end up having to tank it half ass on my healing build.

Jeremy

GreenHere wrote: »

One of the worst things about this whole issue (unless this has been changed recently) is that if you do vote-kick the selfish jackass who queued up as a fake tank, they get no penalty; they can just queue right back up and be in a dungeon again in ~30s! But if you opt to leave because a fake tank brought a stupid friend, well... sucks to be you, sucka! Have fun waiting around for 15 minutes, you dirty quitter!

Like... wut?

I believe how it works is the penalty timer starts to count down once the dungeon begins. So how much of a penalty they receive is going to be based on how long they were in the dungeon before you gave them the boot. I think that's how it works anyway.

MaleAmazon

Only way I can think of to fix it is to be able to 'pest' someone so you never get queued with them. Shouldn´t be that hard to implement. I´ve heard 'ignore' does this but I am not sure, also I have to save my ignore spots for all other idiots

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , I think @GreenHere meant general waiting times in queue for DDs, not the cooldown. Fake tanks will shrug, queue up and they're in a dungeon again; DDs will return to the tail of the queue and will be waiting for their turn again.

And yes, my point was in that not enough people are enjoying it. Why, seems like trying to make it more enjoyable is a no-brainer.

Kadoin

My answer to the problem is simple: I simply refuse to heal for fake tank runs. When I do, I somehow end up in the tank position and if I have to do damage, tank, and heal, what do I need anyone else for?

MaleAmazon

I guess the 'queue for only one role' was their 'fix', though I have no idea what they were thinking with that one - it is the fake queuing that is the problem and that remains. Only not I cannot queue for 3 roles when I could legit do them (on normals).

Anyway I´ll just reiterate solutions we´ve talked about before:

1. Put in an option to 'allow unbalanced group' meaning any 4 ppl get grouped and sent into the dungeon. Then, any 4 ppl can queue up and we can stop pretending (as if anyone does) that a normal dungeon requires a healer.

2. Allow people to pest players via right click meaning they don´t get queued with them. Yes, I want these jerks out of the queue system.

3. Guilds are your friend. I am a member of 2 guilds where you can specifically do dungeon / trial runs, and you don´t have to socialize if you don´t want to. Just use guild chat, find people, and do the run. Some quick banter, but it doesnt require you to invest too much of your time to make friends online.

Agenericname

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , apparently not enough tanks enjoy tanking then? I mean, you do enjoy it, but it's anecdotal evidence, sadly - it doesn't tell us how many other tanks do. (And queue times give us a clue: not a whole lot.) Maybe we're not witnessing the resurgence of tanking because, more interesting than in other games tanking in ESO might be, it may be still too little to make it fun. Most content doesn't require a lot of tactical thinking from tanks, so maybe content designers should try harder and then we'll see if they can break the trend?

I understand (and agree) that people enjoy dealing damage more. But I think that making tanks shine and play more dynamic and fun role would improve things. It's not a binary thing (popular vs. unpopular), it's a curve - more fun tanking, more tanks around.

I think theres more to making tanks more popular than just making them more fun. There are people that avoid tanking simply because they dont want the harsh criticism. We've already established that people are impatient, hence this thread. There's at least one post in this thread that reflects that reasoning. I seriously doubt that it's an isolated case.

Personally I dont like dragon knights. I dont have anything against them, but I dont want to play one. Wardens...I've tried. I've never seen a class that I wanted to like but couldnt as much as a Warden. Unfortunately that's the bar for tanks. Anything else is tool of limited scope. Any other class that I play, despite of how good I may be, wouldn't be welcomed outside of 4 person content, generally, and from time to time wouldn't be welcomed there.

There are more perceived barriers to tanking than DD.

code65536

The problem, ultimately, is that real tanks don't queue.

I have three tanks. I've cleared the hardmodes of every vet trial and dungeon as a tank. And I (virtually) never queue as a tank. I frequently queue my DDs in Group Finder, but not my tanks.

Why not? Well, let me tell you about the last time I queued my tank in Group Finder. I got vet Darkshade 2. And wiped hard on Grobull because the DPS was so low that they couldn't kill the netchlings faster than they spawned. This wasn't even a DLC dungeon--just a base-game dungeon that's been in the game since launch. And we wiped midway through the dungeon.

Fortunately for me, the healer ragequit, so I was able to invite a DD friend to bail me out. So now this is a 3DD group, since I essentially replaced a healer with a DD. He told me he did 80% of the total group DPS on Grobull, which meant the other two DDs did an average of 10% DPS each. On the final boss, the other two DDs dropped like flies early on, and we just 2-manned it.

People complain about fake tanks. But you know what the real problem is? Fake DDs. If I get crap DDs in the group, there is nothing that I, as an endgame tank, can do about it. Tanks can't carry bad DDs. But as a DD, I can carry bad tanks. If the tank doesn't group things up, that's fine, I'll just spend more time killing them separately. If the tank dies too easily, that's fine, I can kite the boss around and dodge their heavy attacks. But if a DD does virtually no damage, there's nothing that I can do except watch the slow-motion train wreck.

Fake DDs are why I and most tanks I know won't solo-queue in the Group Finder as a tank.

MaleAmazon

TBH learning how to tank was pretty hard for me.. it´s not like someone else can really show you. You can watch youtube videos etc but when learning a dungeon you need good support and revives from others, which just basically never happens in a PUG for example. So there´s that.

And not to be a *** but as a tank it is just so exasperating to see people die repeatedly to the same mechanic/attack, that cannot be taunted. Then they blame you for not tanking ground aoes, or whatever It really is like playtime with kindergartners sometimes. One time, ok. Three - ok maybe it is your first time. FIVE - maybe ask in chat what you should do...

Girl_Number8

Join a good guild that is active and likes running dailies. Be sure to have a dps, tanky, and a healer character of your own, if you need to adjust a role for your group in a vet dungeon. Also, your guild will appreciate it and you will get to do a lot more activities in the game. Good luck~

Pugging is not a handpicked group. So if a random player is a bother to you, just leave or ask to be kicked from the group. It will save you a lot of needless stress.

Royaji

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , apparently not enough tanks enjoy tanking then? I mean, you do enjoy it, but it's anecdotal evidence, sadly - it doesn't tell us how many other tanks do. (And queue times give us a clue: not a whole lot.) Maybe we're not witnessing the resurgence of tanking because, more interesting than in other games tanking in ESO might be, it may be still too little to make it fun. Most content doesn't require a lot of tactical thinking from tanks, so maybe content designers should try harder and then we'll see if they can break the trend?

I understand (and agree) that people enjoy dealing damage more. But I think that making tanks shine and play more dynamic and fun role would improve things. It's not a binary thing (popular vs. unpopular), it's a curve - more fun tanking, more tanks around.

Saying that not enough people enjoy tanking because there is not enough tanks in groupfinder is a logical fallacy. Not enough people enjoy tanking in random groups. It's not that hard to find a tank for pledges or even some farm runs when you ask in a guild. It is a giant mess to wait for a tank in groupfinder though.

Tanks do not make 25% of playerbase but they are not that rare. Just that most tanks have a luxury of choosing groups they want to run with. And let's be honest, I will take two 30k DDs (even better if they are 40-45k DDs) and be able to stay in Ebon/Alkosh over a pug with 10k light attackers (we should really call them fake DDs, btw) and bothering with getting some weird stuff like Thunderbug/Bahrahas just to complete a non-DLC vet dungeon.

John_Falstaff

@Agenericname , well, that problem does exist too. I'm not arguing about that too, and it is a serious one. I do get to see it from the different side of the barricade - I do main a stamina DK DD, and I'm so terribly sick of DKs having that brand of 'tank' class on them; to the point where I wish they toned our tanking capabilities down some while elevating others to have their time to shine as tanks. It's same on the other end of things: you want to tank but don't like DKs - and I want to be on par damage-wise, but I like being DK. So yes, balance is important.

But that said, I think the issue is complex. Yes, non-DK non-warden tanks do have more social pressure on them (same for underdog DD classes), but if we're talking about fake tanks in regular dungeons, I think that fun aspect plays bigger role, and if tanking was fun and rewarding enough, people would tank even on non-meta builds.

SpacemanSpiff1

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I think a good compromise would be opening 3 extra options to people who queue.

1. "I'm willing to accept a group with no tank" (3 dps 1 healer)
2. "I'willing to accept a group with no healer" (3 dps 1 tank)
3. "I'm willing to accept a 4 dps group"

That way most people who are confident in their abilities can go 4 DPS and try to clear the dungeon. But if they fail and come here on the forums to cry, please point me to the thread so I can laugh my arse off 😃

I had a similar idea:
Add a toggle in the group finder for a non-traditional group setup. It would pull any four people who had it selected, regardless of role.

People that currently fake queue have a more legitimate option to quickly get groups.
People that don't need tanks/healers could (likely) get groups without them.
People that like the traditional tank/heal/dd/dd will more likely get that since the above folks are out of the queue pool.

I think it would be easier and less likely to get misused/abused/worked around than some of the player ratings, gear/skill checks, or dungeon role buff/debuffs ideas I've seen.

AhPook_Is_Here

If you queue as a real tank the only problem is fake dps, but if you have 2 or 3 real tanks in your pixel closet, if you get fake dps just log into a new character and queue again! One thing tanks are not required to be is patient!

Crafts_Many_Boxes

So I know it's been touched on already, but need to stress that one of the biggest reasons there are so few actual tanks in this game is because of how unfun and unintuitive it is.

There are only 2 or 3 taunts in the entire game, and they're all single target. There are no threat tables, only single target taunts. I get the whole "the game isn't designed that way" argument, but that also assumes the game was well designed to begin with. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.

Tanking is just better with aoe taunts and aggro and everything other western MMO tanks have. ESO tried to be different in a lot of key MMO areas, and most of them IMO are failures. Tanking is no exception, as it is far more challenging and far less fun in this game than in other games. The end result is that, sure, some hardcores swear its better, but most players simply won't bother because they don't find it fun.

So in conclusion, if you want less "fake tanks" in this game, ZOS needs to make actual tanking more fun and interesting. In the very least, there needs to be more mob pulling abilities and an aoe taunt. Watching tanks work in this game is so clunky in this game compared to games like WoW or Rift, and at some point the whole "well it takes more skill" argument just falls on deaf ears. I think we're at that point.

code65536

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So I know it's been touched on already, but need to stress that one of the biggest reasons there are so few actual tanks in this game is because of how unfun and unintuitive it is.

There are only 2 or 3 taunts in the entire game, and they're all single target. There are no threat tables, only single target taunts. I get the whole "the game isn't designed that way" argument, but that also assumes the game was well designed to begin with. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.

Tanking is just better with aoe taunts and aggro and everything other western MMO tanks have. ESO tried to be different in a lot of key MMO areas, and most of them IMO are failures. Tanking is no exception, as it is far more challenging and far less fun in this game than in other games. The end result is that, sure, some hardcores swear its better, but most players simply won't bother because they don't find it fun.

So in conclusion, if you want less "fake tanks" in this game, ZOS needs to make actual tanking more fun and interesting. In the very least, there needs to be more mob pulling abilities and an aoe taunt. Watching tanks work in this game is so clunky in this game compared to games like WoW or Rift, and at some point the whole "well it takes more skill" argument just falls on deaf ears. I think we're at that point.

I've never played another MMO, so I can't compare. But tanking is not particularly hard in ESO. It is fun, though. But really not that hard or complicated. I'd say that being a good tank is easier than being a good DD.

The problem, though, is still that tanks can't carry bad DDs. If they are queued into a bad group, they are helpless to do anything about it.

Sailor_Palutena

Jeremy wrote: »

When fake tanks become an issue I just initiate a vote to kick them. If the group refuses to kick them - then I suddenly forgot how to heal them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As a Healer this is something I will never do. I won't stop healing because some fake tank is being an opportunist. I'd rather announce my leaving from the group. Hell, I heal even randoms in open world when I see them hurt. :P

Agenericname

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

When fake tanks become an issue I just initiate a vote to kick them. If the group refuses to kick them - then I suddenly forgot how to heal them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As a Healer this is something I will never do. I won't stop healing because some fake tank is being an opportunist. I'd rather announce my leaving from the group. Hell, I heal even randoms in open world when I see them hurt. :P

I wouldnt do that either, but I thought the OP was funny when I read it. If the DD are protecting the tank to prevent a kick, I'll just leave.

I ran into a fake tank the other day that took all the short cuts and left the group behind. Started a boss fight locking the group out, only to have to rez them after the wipe. Both DDs would have kicked them, but the healer didnt want to. I managed to halfway tank the mobs on my DD until we caught up. I couldnt understand why the healer of all people wouldnt want to kick them.

The rest of the dungeon was spent listening to why the tank should be more of a team player since they joined a "group" dungeon. How it wasnt a "solo" expedition, learn to play with a group, be more considerate, etc. Then we took the long way around killing every possible mob. I'm glad we didnt kick them.

BejaProphet

1. Due to the wonderfully flexible character design this can not be solved by ZOS. Because people can attempt to sincerely fulfill the roll in infinitely creative ways. They can not identify real or fake tanks with such design. Because real or fake is in the players intentions not the build.

2. The only option for them to help is to open up non classic group cues. So that those who flag themselves as willing can receive groups of four like minded characters who will take 4 players if any role. This will relieve pressure on dps wait times so that there is less need to que as a fake tank.

3. We need to learn to be extremely supportive of “bad” tanks, those who are struggling but sincerely trying to do the job. We want them to be willing to continue and develop into good tanks.