Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

JumpmanLane

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

2. The second major issue I have is with the people who think this is ok. I don' t care if it easy mcdungeon squisheister final boss that dies with a breath attack, you are not a tank. Do not que for a tank. Saying "It's only a normal dungeon" does not make it right. It really doesn't. You are queing for a role you are not to circumvent the que times. Tough nuggets. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que times, or roll with someone who is one.

Half the time the dps that que as tanks can;t even dps properly or are just horrendously bad but believe what they are doing is ok. This problem needs to end. Have requirements for the role implemented. If you are going to que as tank, you need to have at least 35k health, a taunt unlocked and on your bar and 5 pieces of heavy armour. If these requiements are not met or at any point in time changed during a dungeon run, a notification should pop up to tell the player that things have changed and need to be fixed. If they don't, a boot should happen.

Another easy way to fix this is to have the group kick be majority instead of all players. I notice that these people who que like this tend to be in a group with one other person. Which means you can't kick them. It is unfair. And to the OP, this problem has been around for a long long time and is not something that is recently getting bad.

I run a magdk in 5 light. I think i MIGHT have 17-18 k health (IF I remember to eat food first). I don't know what a taunt IS...and I ain't slotting that trash on my bars. I usually fill in the tank thing when I do randoms with my pals if we cant fill out a foursome.

Now these are the rules:
1. We always say "Hi" the the random fool in group chat. if he don't say "Hi" back before we can vote and kick...well...then...he's GOOD and kicked!
2. Don't say ANYTHING about what ANYBODY is doing in that dungeon. Stuff like, "What's the tank doing?" and "Why have we stopped?" or "Which one of yawl is supposed o be the healer?" KICKED!
3. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

The moral of this lil story is make some friends and do dungeons with them. Queuing up with PUGS, PEOPLE. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. is BOUND TO END IN DISASTER.

ZeroXFF

Of all the solutions being proposed the one that is most likely to work and least likely to have any kind of negative impact is to allow for non-standard group compositions.

Just add a selection of groups you would accept in the dungeon finder menu, and people who are inclined to queue as fakes can go into the 4DD queues that will be just as quick as the standard queue for tanks, and they would also no longer annoy people who like to have support with them. Just add the following checkboxes:

1. 1 tank, 2 dd, 1 heal
2. 1 tank, 3 dd
3. 3 dd, 1 heal
4. 4dd

Also re-enable queuing with multiple roles to give the system more variables to allow for more flexibility that can be leveraged for balancing queues. And finally, implement an algorithm taking advantage of this flexibility that would balance the queues for minimal average waiting time for everyone. Due to the 4DD and 3DD+heal queues the waiting times for tanks and DDs would equalize, and there will be no incentive to queue as a tank when you're a DD, unless you get off on people putting you on ignore lists.

This will require some thinking about how to implement an optimization/balancing algorithm, but I'm sure the guys who worked on the multi-thread optimization for Summerset are qualified to implement something like that considering the issue is similar in nature.

Aesthier

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.
2. Find a friend who main's a real tank and queue with them only or even better an entire group.
3. Continue to kick and queue in a repetitive cycle that only serves to further your frustrations (which really isn't a solution at all).
4. Quit using the tool altogether and go directly to the location and enter it manually.

The true issue is not that people are queuing as something other than what they are the real issue is a shortage of players in certain roles.

If there were more people playing as tanks as opposed to DPS then there wouldn't be room (nor the incentive) for players to queue as tanks when their characters do not actually support that role.

This is true for healers as well.

Standing around and complaining about how "others" should make real tanks, or real healers, or even real DPS when you yourself are unwilling to, is a hypocritical perspective and false approach to a real solution.


Making demands upon others to solve your problems when you are unwilling to make the same sacrifices towards those solutions is simply immature.


Other people are not beholden to play in the same style you do just as you are not beholden to play in the same style they do. Expecting such is hypocrisy.


So if there is a role someone is filling but not in a manner that suits your needs, take it upon yourself to implement the change and become part of the solution instead of placing that demand on others.


YOU already have that ability.

AndrewQ84

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Iselin

I think it would be hilarious if the way aggro works were changed so that whoever is the tank in the group automatically gets all the aggro from all the mobs all the time.

I'd pay money to watch that. Especially those who think kiting is a good way to do group content

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

No they're not. A real tank can get a group, whether for a random or specific dungeon literally in seconds any time they want. There are more than enough tank spots to go around.

Don't get me wrong, I don't excuse or support fake tank queuing but your logic about the fakes taking spots away from real tanks is pretty faulty.

Aesthier

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

TheGreatBlackBear

The other day when MoS was the daily, I rolled the dungeon as my daily random vet. I was healing. We had a dw stamplade fake tank and he was horrible. I stayed in because there were drops that I needed to get from there, but it was painful. A run that should have taken an hour max took closer to four. Eventually we just left fake tank dead during the last boss and we three manned it.

Silver_Strider

Aesthier wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Now what sounds sillier, a person waiting 30 minutes in queue whom plans to do their select role or someone with no desire to fulfill their role getting an instant queue in?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Now what sounds sillier, a person waiting 30 minutes in queue whom plans to do their select role or someone with no desire to fulfill their role getting an instant queue in?

Neither because what if a person is actually inexperienced with tanking while people just blatantly scream “O EM GEE FAKE TANK!!1!!” and then kick them for no reason?

Silver_Strider

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Now what sounds sillier, a person waiting 30 minutes in queue whom plans to do their select role or someone with no desire to fulfill their role getting an instant queue in?

Neither because what if a person is actually inexperienced with tanking while people just blatantly scream “O EM GEE FAKE TANK!!1!!” and then kick them for no reason?

That doesn't mean they have no desire to do their job, they just aren't aware of how to do it, is all.

It's an entirely different scenario and a strawman argument.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Now what sounds sillier, a person waiting 30 minutes in queue whom plans to do their select role or someone with no desire to fulfill their role getting an instant queue in?

Neither because what if a person is actually inexperienced with tanking while people just blatantly scream “O EM GEE FAKE TANK!!1!!” and then kick them for no reason?

That doesn't mean they have no desire to do their job, they just aren't aware of how to do it, is all.

It's an entirely different scenario and a strawman argument.

Well you got me there.

Agenericname

Kurat wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

I'm pretty sure if you kick that fake tank from the beginning then he still has the 15 minute timer from the last time he queued?

No, they dont. You get the penalty if you leave, but you wont if you're booted.

I got kicked about a month ago from nFG1 as soon as I loaded in. And I did get 15min penalty. I was pissed as hell coz I was trying to lvl my new dps toon and queued as dps and had to wait for 30min. They said sorry dude they are all RL friends and wanna play together 3 man it. Wtf. I took 15 min penalty and then sat in queue for another 30 min.
So you got it wrong or they just recently changed that.

I could be wrong about it. I've only been kicked twice. Once I received no penalty and the other I was having technical issues and wouldn't have noticed either way. It's not uncommon to queue into a DLC for the random and have someone ask to be kicked to avoid the penalty.

There was a period when some people were receiving a one hour penalty. I wouldnt be surprised by much in the RDF.

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.

I have real tanks. I roll them as well. Are you saying, that on the days I want to dps, I have to roll tanks so that I don't have to deal with the DPS that want to que as a tank? Let me get this straight. In order to prevent DPS from ever queuing as tanks for me I have to permanently roll as a tank? Well, that seems really fair. I like that idea. How about, gee, I don't know, STOP QUEUING AS A *** TANK WHEN YOUR NOT A *** TANK! That would really solve the problem.

Or you could actually find a tank friend to take with you.

Continuing to complain about a situation that you continue to put yourself into because you are too lazy to make the effort required to avoid that situation is pretty silly.

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Now what sounds sillier, a person waiting 30 minutes in queue whom plans to do their select role or someone with no desire to fulfill their role getting an instant queue in?

Neither because what if a person is actually inexperienced with tanking while people just blatantly scream “O EM GEE FAKE TANK!!1!!” and then kick them for no reason?

It could happen. It could become a witch hunt, but I have only seen one tank kicked while actually trying to tank.

Kuramas9tails

VaranisArano wrote: »

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

@VaranisArano I am curious to know what normal dungeon boss bothers you that much.

GreenHere

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

@VaranisArano I am curious to know what normal dungeon boss bothers you that much.

I'm not @VaranisArano but I can say this; it's not about the difficulty of the boss. Any boss can suddenly become an annoying chore when you're in a dungeon with 3 pugs who are running in circles with a boss who would be dead already if they just held still.

Most of us don't have a huge problem with fake tanks if they just hold the damn boss still. But they often don't even bother to do that; they don't do anything to control the boss at all. It's blatant and utter disrespect for your group mates. And oddly enough, a lot of people don't appreciate that.

Not meant as a personal attack on you, @Kuramas9tails, but your question is indicative of the spirit of this thread. The amount of people who fail to see what's uncool about fake tanking without so much as a taunt on one measly skill slot (every 15 seconds) would blow my mind if I wasn't already so disillusioned about people already. Still though, it's frustrating.

VaranisArano

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

@VaranisArano I am curious to know what normal dungeon boss bothers you that much.

@Kuramas9tails

Okay, here's my problem. I PUG on my healer, and I like to actually do a good job as a PUG healer. That means healing well, doing decent DPS, and buffing the group, right? And I PUG, so that means I'm signing up for a random quality of group members. I've seen it all - groups where Im doing the most DPS, groups with a DD so squishy they die if the boss looks at them, good tanks, bad tanks, you name it. So when I PUG, I'm looking to he a good healer no matter how bad my random groupmates are.

Guess what makes that a lot harder? Having to tank the boss on top of everything I'm supposed to be doing. Especially if someone else in the group is a Squishy McGlasscannon as is common in groupfinder.

I can tank the boss on top of everything else. I main a tank, so its not hard, per se. It is, however, annoying and makes my job that I queued up to do a lot harder than it is when I have an tank who holds boss aggro.

Bottom line, a fake tank is like that guy at work whos constantly trying to get other peoppe to do his work for him. I'm already prepared and able to do my job as a PUG healer. Throwing the tank job on top of that makes my job harder to do well. If you queue as tank, do your own job and dont except someone else to pick up your slack. Because someone in that group of four is going to get boss aggro, no matter what.

(Story time) One group I was in, like Spindleclutch 1, tbe boss aggroed on a newbie DD instead of my healer. Now, my healer could have kept him healed, but he didn't know it and ran like a chicken. Our tank was pissed. Started yelling at the DD to stand still (which is what the DD should have done, true). Boss dies, slowly, because the DD is trying and failing to escape boss aggro. At the end of the dungeon, the tank says he wasnt using a taunt, and we were all like "And you yelled at that DD? Slot a taunt and the problem would never have happened! You jerk!"

Fake tanks pass the buck. They slack off and try to pass their job onto other people. Someone is going to end up with boss aggro. In a PUG, there's no way of telling whether or not that person can handle it like my healer can, or whether they can't, like that DD. It absolutely has the potential to make the run harder than it needs to be. When it doesnt, thats because someone else picked up the slack and did the tank's job for them. I don't enjoy picking up other people's jobs when I'm PUG healing and if I wanted to tank, I'd queue on one of my tanks.

idk

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

@profundidob16_ESO

I am not suggesting it is right for someone to queue as a tank without having a taunt or the willingness to use it. I am stating what I think is obvious that there is really nothing Zos can do about it short of requiring a taunt be unlocked, which is the only skill required to be a tank in this game, by design. Yea, I would not tank a vet trial in HM with anything short of HA and S&B, etc, but for the most part we are talking normal dungeons with fake tanks.

However, your reply, like pretty much most of these threads, ignores the check system Zos already placed into the game. It is called vote to kick (forum member named Code mentioned this).

That is your check system. That gives players the power. If players started this it would make a big change.

They just need to unlock the undaunted taunt so they can complete the dungeon as most normal dungeons can be tanked by a dps or healer with that taunt, easily. I know as I have done it.

Seems a much better means than complaining in the forums and asking for changes that will not work, or worse, are bad for the game.

In theory that sounds good. But the kick function has it limits. It's easy to exploit by buddies who queue up together. This gives them the majority to protect one of their pals who is running a fake tank build. It also enables them to troll other players by kicking them out for no go good reason. So it works in reverse as well.

So relying on the kick function is not always an effective solution. It can be both abused and exploited.

Are normal dungeons generally easy? Sure. But that still isn't an excuse for someone to lie about their role or to cut in front of line of other DPS characters who have the decency not to lie and wait their turn.

I realize kicking will not always succeed, but what we see in the forums is complaining and offering ill thought ideas like this thread does. Most clearly ignore the vote kick or we would see them mentioning trying that in their complaints.

Regardless, all that Zos can do is require a taunt be unlocked. Nothing more and nothing less.

However, that does not fix the issue as to why decent and good tanks avoid GF. The bad dps, we can call it fake dps, is very real. It is the same reason I will queue as a healer for the heck of it and out dps the entire group while healing. As a true tank that does not work as we more often than not get stuck with weak dps and atrociously long dungeons.

But that is something those that start these threads seem to ignore as well. Probably inconvenient.

Eso101rus

After reading through this post I think people need to be aware of what a fake tank is. In my definition it’s someone queuing as a tank but is a dps who has no intention of tanking, ie taunting or debuffing. Bad tanking and normal dungeons is not in my definition. The argument around low damage is a different story. But I’m sick of hearing the excuses from fake tanks, fact is you are queuing as tank because you don’t wanna wait for your real role as dps.

ZonasArch

Eso101rus wrote: »

After reading through this post I think people need to be aware of what a fake tank is. In my definition it’s someone queuing as a tank but is a dps who has no intention of tanking, ie taunting or debuffing. Bad tanking and normal dungeons is not in my definition. The argument around low damage is a different story. But I’m sick of hearing the excuses from fake tanks, fact is you are queuing as tank because you don’t wanna wait for your real role as dps.

Definition I have for tank, I don't care about your gear, I care about you holding the aggro and staying alive. If you can, apply debuffs. As a healer, aside from DLC dungeons, I can keep any player alive against regular boss damage, I don't mind if I have to use BoL instead of relying on mutagen under my cleansing ritual because you're squishy. Just hold the aggro and have more than 20k healthy to not instadie every ten seconds. Easy enough.

I'm now running a tank 70% of my play time to try to help everyone else with tanking issues. I suck, my tank sucks, but I don't die and I give zero trouble to healers. It's easy, people! C'mon...

D0PAMINE

Jeremy wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Neoealth wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

That's true.

Even on normal there are a dungeons with bosses who can easily one-shot fake tanks.

For example: I was running a normal Fang Lair one time and the boss with the ghost that chains people kept one-shotting our "tank". After the third wipe he said "Oh, I guess you need a real tank for this one" then dropped. So he was fully aware he wasn't actually a tank. He just didn't give a crap.

Not necessarily. I've got several decent tanks which I use for end-game stuff. But levelling a tank is not easy, because you can't do any damage overground. You level to 50 pretty quick but you are still lacking skills, especially as you need to unlock some DPS skills to be able to walk across overground without taking half an hour to get anywhere, or pick up skyshards in delves without grouping with somebody who can kill a wolf in under 5 minutes. I've gone into a random normal dungeon before and not been able to tank sufficiently well because my character wasn't ready. Surely better that I own up and quit - I've never seen a light attack spamming bow build voluntarily leave a dungeon. And it's a tank, how long did the replacement take to arrive? Likewise I've been in plenty of dungeons and got the blame because I can't take every piece of damage from every trash mob AND boss without any heals.

I've tried to understand this argument; that tanks lack the damage to do landscape content and therefore have trouble leveling. But I just can't. Landscape content on this game is so easy even a purely defensive character with hardly any offense should be able to easily defeat 99% of the monsters out there.

I could relate to this argument if it were made in respect to world bosses. Some of those have a lot of health and can take an unreasonable amount of time to wear down as a tank. But aside from that, I just can't understand why any tank would have trouble killing landscape monsters. In fact: slap on any decent monster set and you'll likely kill almost everything in a single rotation.

All that being said: I'm not sure what any of this had to do with my comment though. I was talking about how tanks are important even in some normal difficulty content - and gave an example.

I litterally leveled my Tank while spec'd as a full tank. It's easy with things like pots and buff skills. You can level fine with trash DPS and get used to your tanking build and skills without being a skyreach baby. 100% Agree

SakuraRush

Aesthier wrote: »

My point still stands.

If someone despises getting fake tanks inside their group then they have a few solutions.

1. Make a tank yourself and become a real tank ensuring every group you enter now has a real tank.
2. Find a friend who main's a real tank and queue with them only or even better an entire group.
3. Continue to kick and queue in a repetitive cycle that only serves to further your frustrations (which really isn't a solution at all).
4. Quit using the tool altogether and go directly to the location and enter it manually.

The true issue is not that people are queuing as something other than what they are the real issue is a shortage of players in certain roles.

If there were more people playing as tanks as opposed to DPS then there wouldn't be room (nor the incentive) for players to queue as tanks when their characters do not actually support that role.

This is true for healers as well.

Standing around and complaining about how "others" should make real tanks, or real healers, or even real DPS when you yourself are unwilling to, is a hypocritical perspective and false approach to a real solution.


Making demands upon others to solve your problems when you are unwilling to make the same sacrifices towards those solutions is simply immature.


Other people are not beholden to play in the same style you do just as you are not beholden to play in the same style they do. Expecting such is hypocrisy.


So if there is a role someone is filling but not in a manner that suits your needs, take it upon yourself to implement the change and become part of the solution instead of placing that demand on others.


YOU already have that ability.

People are beholden to play the role they queue for. There are many of us that play tanks. Actual tanks. So when we try and play our DPS characters but get saddled with someone trying to jump the turnstile it's frustrating.

It's just as frustrating when we are on our tanks and we get matched with people queued as DPS but who clearly didn't bother to change out of their PVP jammies.

As for the "true issue", that's irrelevant. The issue being discussed is people ruining a group experience because they are selfish.

I don't care what a players build is as long as they can perform the role they signed up for. Tanks control the battle and stay alive. Healers support the fight and keep the tank alive. Damage nukes it down. That simple.

Ilithyania

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

TBF if a player is low CP, it means he is new. give him/her a break .

For many, including myself, this is my 1st MMO.

if you cant handle random ppl, dont do random ques. Join a guild, get friends

Aesthier

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The same could be said about the fake tank. They could find a real tank and group with them before queuing but decide they simply want to avoid the hassle and skip the line entire.

Very true! But do you see any fake tanks here complaining about how other people don't play the way the fake tanks want them to while refusing to find alternate means of avoiding those individuals?

SakuraRush wrote: »

As for the "true issue", that's irrelevant. The issue being discussed is people ruining a group experience because they are selfish.

No more selfish than those here "discussing" complaining about the above.

You say "they" are selfish because "they" take the path of least effort and select a role for which they are not suited.

I say YOU are just as selfish by taking the path of least effort and hitting the queue button without making the effort to find the friends with which to fill your group out.

So...both camps are equally selfish in the effect none of you are putting in the effort required to ensure your groups are free from a ruined experience.

weedgenius

Aesthier wrote: »

SakuraRush wrote: »

As for the "true issue", that's irrelevant. The issue being discussed is people ruining a group experience because they are selfish.

No more selfish than those here "discussing" complaining about the above.

You say "they" are selfish because "they" take the path of least effort and select a role for which they are not suited.

I say YOU are just as selfish by taking the path of least effort and hitting the queue button without making the effort to find the friends with which to fill your group out.

So...both camps are equally selfish in the effect none of you are putting in the effort required to ensure your groups are free from a ruined experience.

Dont feed the troll ^ ^

John_Falstaff

@Aesthier , with all respect... using the tool which is officially intended to find a group, telling the truth about own role and performing that role is as selfish as lying about role and not honoring explicitly chosen role in the finder? Something's up with that logic. ^^

TheGreatBlackBear

I'm really amused by the term fake DPS. Is that when i queue as a DPS on my healer and try to heavy attack things to death with my resto?

TheGreatBlackBear

JumpmanLane wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

2. The second major issue I have is with the people who think this is ok. I don' t care if it easy mcdungeon squisheister final boss that dies with a breath attack, you are not a tank. Do not que for a tank. Saying "It's only a normal dungeon" does not make it right. It really doesn't. You are queing for a role you are not to circumvent the que times. Tough nuggets. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que times, or roll with someone who is one.

Half the time the dps that que as tanks can;t even dps properly or are just horrendously bad but believe what they are doing is ok. This problem needs to end. Have requirements for the role implemented. If you are going to que as tank, you need to have at least 35k health, a taunt unlocked and on your bar and 5 pieces of heavy armour. If these requiements are not met or at any point in time changed during a dungeon run, a notification should pop up to tell the player that things have changed and need to be fixed. If they don't, a boot should happen.

Another easy way to fix this is to have the group kick be majority instead of all players. I notice that these people who que like this tend to be in a group with one other person. Which means you can't kick them. It is unfair. And to the OP, this problem has been around for a long long time and is not something that is recently getting bad.

I run a magdk in 5 light. I think i MIGHT have 17-18 k health (IF I remember to eat food first). I don't know what a taunt IS...and I ain't slotting that trash on my bars. I usually fill in the tank thing when I do randoms with my pals if we cant fill out a foursome.

Now these are the rules:
1. We always say "Hi" the the random fool in group chat. if he don't say "Hi" back before we can vote and kick...well...then...he's GOOD and kicked!
2. Don't say ANYTHING about what ANYBODY is doing in that dungeon. Stuff like, "What's the tank doing?" and "Why have we stopped?" or "Which one of yawl is supposed o be the healer?" KICKED!
3. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

The moral of this lil story is make some friends and do dungeons with them. Queuing up with PUGS, PEOPLE. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. is BOUND TO END IN DISASTER.

I'd group up with guildies to avoid being placed in a team like this tbh

Jeremy

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

2. The second major issue I have is with the people who think this is ok. I don' t care if it easy mcdungeon squisheister final boss that dies with a breath attack, you are not a tank. Do not que for a tank. Saying "It's only a normal dungeon" does not make it right. It really doesn't. You are queing for a role you are not to circumvent the que times. Tough nuggets. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que times, or roll with someone who is one.

Half the time the dps that que as tanks can;t even dps properly or are just horrendously bad but believe what they are doing is ok. This problem needs to end. Have requirements for the role implemented. If you are going to que as tank, you need to have at least 35k health, a taunt unlocked and on your bar and 5 pieces of heavy armour. If these requiements are not met or at any point in time changed during a dungeon run, a notification should pop up to tell the player that things have changed and need to be fixed. If they don't, a boot should happen.

Another easy way to fix this is to have the group kick be majority instead of all players. I notice that these people who que like this tend to be in a group with one other person. Which means you can't kick them. It is unfair. And to the OP, this problem has been around for a long long time and is not something that is recently getting bad.

I run a magdk in 5 light. I think i MIGHT have 17-18 k health (IF I remember to eat food first). I don't know what a taunt IS...and I ain't slotting that trash on my bars. I usually fill in the tank thing when I do randoms with my pals if we cant fill out a foursome.

Now these are the rules:
1. We always say "Hi" the the random fool in group chat. if he don't say "Hi" back before we can vote and kick...well...then...he's GOOD and kicked!
2. Don't say ANYTHING about what ANYBODY is doing in that dungeon. Stuff like, "What's the tank doing?" and "Why have we stopped?" or "Which one of yawl is supposed o be the healer?" KICKED!
3. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

The moral of this lil story is make some friends and do dungeons with them. Queuing up with PUGS, PEOPLE. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. is BOUND TO END IN DISASTER.

I'd group up with guildies to avoid being placed in a team like this tbh

That person's post is a shining example of what I was talking about earlier when three buddies queue up together and then exploit the kick function to troll other players. I occasionally run into them on ESO - and it's very irritating. Luckily it isn't too common - otherwise I probably wouldn't use the group finder either.

I believe people who queue up together should only count as a single vote toward kicking someone.

Aesthier

@John_Falstaff

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Aesthier , with all respect... using the tool which is officially intended to find a group, telling the truth about own role and performing that role is as selfish as lying about role and not honoring explicitly chosen role in the finder? Something's up with that logic. ^^

You are correct those things aren't the same.

This is not directed at those who put forth the effort to find ways around the situation by grouping with known friends or only partake in random pugs by an occasional happenstance.

It is directed at those who partake in pugs on regular occasion expecting things to change through no true effort of their own.

(1)Those who are demanding that their own enjoyment must be fulfilled by the efforts of (2)others when (1)they themselves are unwilling to put forth the effort to guarantee their own enjoyment with the methods available.

Do I enjoy those who fake their roles?

Hell no.

But I also understand that in filling my groups out with pugs I am leaving myself open to suffering from the results.


So normally I don't enter a queue unless I have 3 friends with me. However, when I don't do that I understand that I share in the responsibility of the result good or bad.

It is simply a matter of being honest with oneself.

John_Falstaff

@Aesthier , mm-m, I just wanted to elucidate - when I've read and re-read your phrase about people not willing to find friends being selfish, I couldn't see any connection to that "...unwilling to put forth the effort"... thing. You see, by queuing in your role, and performing that role to best of your abilities, you both work towards your enjoyment, and towards providing the enjoyment for the people you're grouped with, that's how it's supposed to work. Everyone honestly does their part, and through that, everyone ensures enjoyable experience for themselves and their group mates. I do enjoy running with friends, wit ye well, but I see nothing selfish in offering my company and help to other people who queued up with same intention.

So, I still fail to see any resemblance between honestly queueing as DD (or any other role for that matter) and queuing as fake tank. I don't know where that "demanding that their own enjoyment must be..." came from - by honestly choosing role, you promise to contribute to others' enjoyment too.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

@Jeremy
I’m definitely agreeing with this. Plus their rules just seem a bit unfair.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

2. Don't say ANYTHING about what ANYBODY is doing in that dungeon. Stuff like, "What's the tank doing?" and "Why have we stopped?" or "Which one of yawl is supposed o be the healer?" KICKED!

If someone was asking a simple question why should they be kicked?