Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

sampol212

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

sampol212 wrote: »

You people really need tank on Normal mode?

I run every day a normal dungeon as a fake tank, mostly with people like 20, 30 Lvl and we melt it like butter - its a speed run and no one complaints. No one ever died on that runs. Once one of the players wrote something in chat about me being a fake tank - but he realised fast that it works well and stayed silent for the rest of the activity.

If you need tank in Normal dungeon then something is wrong here. I run solo and duo many times when I was farming Burning Spellweave and had no problem:) and I play Magicka Warden which is cosidered one of the worst dps classes.

only yesterday I played 3 random dailies on my baby tank. In Spindleclutch I normal as tank I witnessed 2 dps lowbies lvl 11 and 12 that are light attacking the whole dungeon where the lvl 15 healer did nothing but spam mutagen as his only healing spell. Somehow the 2 dps weren't doing any damage and mobs just kept on living and living and I had to retaunt and retaunt and maximize heavy attacks and pots usage just to have the stamina to taunt all mobs since they didn't die easy. Thank god my baby tank was specced for pure tanking (not dps) and somehow my dps still was 50% just with puncture and talons. No response at all when you type in chat (maybe they are russian ??)

During the parts with the big packs and a boss they would have died nonstop if I didn't actually went classic tanking and taunting ALL mobs (not just the big ones) so yes, a tank is clearly necessary in normal group finder dungeons where it feels harder than some of the HM I've done.

Hihi, I've never experienced that because I deliver DPS so no tank is never needed. But your example shows that its easier to do normal dungeon as fake tank DPS than real tank:)

EDS604

the biggest issue i see with tanks in general, is the fact they run around with bosses like a headless chicken, pulling bosses out of dropped ultimates, making the whole fight a cat and mouse game. i feel blessed when a tank holds his ground, but these are very hard to come by.

profundidob16_ESO

sampol212 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

sampol212 wrote: »

You people really need tank on Normal mode?

I run every day a normal dungeon as a fake tank, mostly with people like 20, 30 Lvl and we melt it like butter - its a speed run and no one complaints. No one ever died on that runs. Once one of the players wrote something in chat about me being a fake tank - but he realised fast that it works well and stayed silent for the rest of the activity.

If you need tank in Normal dungeon then something is wrong here. I run solo and duo many times when I was farming Burning Spellweave and had no problem:) and I play Magicka Warden which is cosidered one of the worst dps classes.

only yesterday I played 3 random dailies on my baby tank. In Spindleclutch I normal as tank I witnessed 2 dps lowbies lvl 11 and 12 that are light attacking the whole dungeon where the lvl 15 healer did nothing but spam mutagen as his only healing spell. Somehow the 2 dps weren't doing any damage and mobs just kept on living and living and I had to retaunt and retaunt and maximize heavy attacks and pots usage just to have the stamina to taunt all mobs since they didn't die easy. Thank god my baby tank was specced for pure tanking (not dps) and somehow my dps still was 50% just with puncture and talons. No response at all when you type in chat (maybe they are russian ??)

During the parts with the big packs and a boss they would have died nonstop if I didn't actually went classic tanking and taunting ALL mobs (not just the big ones) so yes, a tank is clearly necessary in normal group finder dungeons where it feels harder than some of the HM I've done.

Hihi, I've never experienced that because I deliver DPS so no tank is never needed. But your example shows that its easier to do normal dungeon as fake tank DPS than real tank:)

As stupid as it stands with current game design you're actually right, if I had queued for that normal with my high level dps they would just be running behind me as I solo the whole dungeon lol This goes to prove just how wrong dungeon design is in it's current state

sampol212

Normal Dungeos should be easy and fun for everyone. if you want challenge, special mechanics etc. then thats what veteran mode is for.

VaranisArano

sampol212 wrote: »

You people really need tank on Normal mode?

I run every day a normal dungeon as a fake tank, mostly with people like 20, 30 Lvl and we melt it like butter - its a speed run and no one complaints. No one ever died on that runs. Once one of the players wrote something in chat about me being a fake tank - but he realised fast that it works well and stayed silent for the rest of the activity.

If you need tank in Normal dungeon then something is wrong here. I run solo and duo many times when I was farming Burning Spellweave and had no problem:) and I play Magicka Warden which is cosidered one of the worst dps classes.

Do I need a tank on a normal run?

No, my healer is perfectly capable of healing, DPSing, buffing, and tanking the bosses' aggro all at once.

Does that mean I am thinking dark thoughts in your direction because you expect me to do your job and don't GAF about what it means that I have to do my job AND yours?

Yes, yes, it does. You jerk.

Slot a taunt. Handle boss aggro. I'll keep you alive and you can do the job you queued up for, and I can do the job I queued up for.

Alchemical

I just started getting back into ESO and I met this tank in a dungeon last night.

11k health. I don't even know how you can manage to get health that low. It's seriously haunted me.

idk

@profundidob16_ESO

I am not suggesting it is right for someone to queue as a tank without having a taunt or the willingness to use it. I am stating what I think is obvious that there is really nothing Zos can do about it short of requiring a taunt be unlocked, which is the only skill required to be a tank in this game, by design. Yea, I would not tank a vet trial in HM with anything short of HA and S&B, etc, but for the most part we are talking normal dungeons with fake tanks.

However, your reply, like pretty much most of these threads, ignores the check system Zos already placed into the game. It is called vote to kick (forum member named Code mentioned this).

That is your check system. That gives players the power. If players started this it would make a big change.

They just need to unlock the undaunted taunt so they can complete the dungeon as most normal dungeons can be tanked by a dps or healer with that taunt, easily. I know as I have done it.

Seems a much better means than complaining in the forums and asking for changes that will not work, or worse, are bad for the game.

Wolfpaw

As a healer if I get a fake tank, I vote to kick. If this doesn't pass I just sit and wait to be kicked so I don't get the deserter wait time.

Posted this in a similar topic.
Two things that could alleviate dungeon finder (time in queue) and fake role players,

1. Copy/create a ESO version of dungeon/group finder similar to GW2, it's the best I have ever seen in any mmo.
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Looking_For_Group
2. Open up dual talent specialization.

2c
Thank you.

GreenHere

I don't get the "It's normal, you don't need a tank" argument...

Yeah, that's true; we don't need a tank. We don't need anything. Most of us could solo this whole place. So we also don't need you.

It'd be nice if we could get someone to hold the bosses still, and guess what? You signed up to be that someone, and you aren't doing it.

Vote to Kick
Vote to Kick
Vote to Kick

Bye

Aesthier

Don't like getting a fake tank in your dungeons?

Then make a real tank yourself and queue with it instead of your DPS.


^ Problem solved.

GreenHere

Aesthier wrote: »

Don't like getting a fake tank in your dungeons?

Then make a real tank yourself and queue with it instead of your DPS.


^ Problem solved.

Problem not solved.

People are cutting in line by saying they're a tank, then not performing the most basic thing they could to even fake the role. It's the attitude and the action that is the problem. The logistics of actually needing a tank in the dungeon exist, but are secondary to the issue being discussed. In my opinion, at least.

Iselin

Once upon a time I used to be pretty hard line about voting to kick role posers in PUGs but honestly, this has been with us for so long now it has become an institution. It's just one of the many goofy situations you get in PUGs in ESO and it isn't going to go away any time soon. Your best bet is just to learn to live with it.

I have max CP and am also one of those weirdos who loves to level little alts. I often level them to 40 or so and then delete them to open up a slot to create whichever class/build strikes my fancy.

I level and gear-up by a combination of questing and PUG queues so I run those normal PUG dungeons every day and often

Fake tanks? Fake healers? Light attack only DPS? I see them all on a daily basis. I don't try to kick anyone. I just have enough CP under my lowbee disguise to carry them no matter what. I even throw some hints their way whenever I see someone doing something particularly stupid (low CP players with 10 or 12K health who get constantly one-shot, lone bowmen who stand way over there getting none of the healing or group shield bubbles, etc.) but I've come to expect neither thanks nor acknowledgement.

This fake role thing, at least in normal version I dungeons, is not nearly as much of a problem as the just plain competence disparity between us old vets and the new players. If I PUG with anyone under 3-400 CP I just expect them to not be top dungeoneers and I compensate.

Expect the worst in PUGs and you won't be disappointed And then use your superior knowledge of the game to carry them.

Left4Daud

I won’t even bother pugging on my main tank anymore. Last time I did I got into a group where my dedicated tank build was doing 40% of the groups total dps. I just gritted my teeth and suffered through it. But now I’d rather wait 5 hours in the que on my DPS than risk tanking for a group like that again.

tonemd

So this whole thread is basically saying there is a severe need for tanks, even *** ones.

I can do that.

shiningforce

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

I have had the same issues for over a month or more now. This happens about 50% of the time I que for a random dungeon with 4 dps characters a day and there is a low level with no taunt just running around shooting light attack arrows..... I just stopped doing randoms on my dps and only do 1 random a day on my Tank. There is a shortage of tanks, but even being a good tank is a pain with many players as there is always 1 dps running in front of you pulling, then dying 2 seconds later, that or they pull the next group over before we are done. The easy answer is to just kick them from group, but i hear what you are saying when its the Tank people resist the kick button thinking it will take another 30 min. something does need to be done though

russelmmendoza

Iselin wrote: »

Once upon a time I used to be pretty hard line about voting to kick role posers in PUGs but honestly, this has been with us for so long now it has become an institution. It's just one of the many goofy situations you get in PUGs in ESO and it isn't going to go away any time soon. Your best bet is just to learn to live with it.

I have max CP and am also one of those weirdos who loves to level little alts. I often level them to 40 or so and then delete them to open up a slot to create whichever class/build strikes my fancy.

I level and gear-up by a combination of questing and PUG queues so I run those normal PUG dungeons every day and often

Fake tanks? Fake healers? Light attack only DPS? I see them all on a daily basis. I don't try to kick anyone. I just have enough CP under my lowbee disguise to carry them no matter what. I even throw some hints their way whenever I see someone doing something particularly stupid (low CP players with 10 or 12K health who get constantly one-shot, lone bowmen who stand way over there getting none of the healing or group shield bubbles, etc.) but I've come to expect neither thanks nor acknowledgement.

This fake role thing, at least in normal version I dungeons, is not nearly as much of a problem as the just plain competence disparity between us old vets and the new players. If I PUG with anyone under 3-400 CP I just expect them to not be top dungeoneers and I compensate.

Expect the worst in PUGs and you won't be disappointed And then use your superior knowledge of the game to carry them.

This exactly. Normal dungeons are easy pissy. You can carry the lowbros and fakebros if its just normal. My dps can kill anything in normal and runoff laughing.

VaranisArano

Aesthier wrote: »

Don't like getting a fake tank in your dungeons?

Then make a real tank yourself and queue with it instead of your DPS.


^ Problem solved.

I have a real tank, ebon armory and everything. I don't even bother queuing as DPS, since I'm too used to my low tank waiting time.

Strangely enough, I mostly run into fake tanks when I queue on my healer...problem not solved, unless I never play my healer again.

Rungar

there are no tanks because dps in this game is broken beyond belief. I know that sounds weird but it makes sense when you have pug tanked a bazillion groups on the finder.

Kurat

Agenericname wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

I'm pretty sure if you kick that fake tank from the beginning then he still has the 15 minute timer from the last time he queued?

No, they dont. You get the penalty if you leave, but you wont if you're booted.

I got kicked about a month ago from nFG1 as soon as I loaded in. And I did get 15min penalty. I was pissed as hell coz I was trying to lvl my new dps toon and queued as dps and had to wait for 30min. They said sorry dude they are all RL friends and wanna play together 3 man it. Wtf. I took 15 min penalty and then sat in queue for another 30 min.
So you got it wrong or they just recently changed that.

weedgenius

Aesthier wrote: »

Don't like getting a fake tank in your dungeons?

Then make a real tank yourself and queue with it instead of your DPS.


^ Problem solved.

75% of the time when I queue with my (real) tank I end up in a group with a fake healer. Both non-dps roles are flooded with 780cp mag sorc dps who think their time is so important that they shouldn’t have to wait in the dps queue, the rest of their group be damned.

And every single time it’s some variation of “lol I can solo this” or “it’s normal mode if you don’t like it leave” as if they’re not the ones making selfish decisions that bring problems for the three other people they get grouped with. Every time I vote kick it fails. They must often queue with friends?

It sucks that dps have to wait a long time in the queue but you know what else sucks? To have a properly outfitted healer or tank with short queue times but whose runs get ruined by dps fake queuing in the other role.

The only toons I run dungeons on are healer and tank and honestly I see way way more fake healers when I queue on my tank than vice versa.

This problem is so bad that half the time I don’t even bother trying to run daily randoms anymore. Which means I’m spending less time on this game. FIX YOUR SYSTEM ZOS!

weedgenius

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Once upon a time I used to be pretty hard line about voting to kick role posers in PUGs but honestly, this has been with us for so long now it has become an institution. It's just one of the many goofy situations you get in PUGs in ESO and it isn't going to go away any time soon. Your best bet is just to learn to live with it.

I have max CP and am also one of those weirdos who loves to level little alts. I often level them to 40 or so and then delete them to open up a slot to create whichever class/build strikes my fancy.

I level and gear-up by a combination of questing and PUG queues so I run those normal PUG dungeons every day and often

Fake tanks? Fake healers? Light attack only DPS? I see them all on a daily basis. I don't try to kick anyone. I just have enough CP under my lowbee disguise to carry them no matter what. I even throw some hints their way whenever I see someone doing something particularly stupid (low CP players with 10 or 12K health who get constantly one-shot, lone bowmen who stand way over there getting none of the healing or group shield bubbles, etc.) but I've come to expect neither thanks nor acknowledgement.

This fake role thing, at least in normal version I dungeons, is not nearly as much of a problem as the just plain competence disparity between us old vets and the new players. If I PUG with anyone under 3-400 CP I just expect them to not be top dungeoneers and I compensate.

Expect the worst in PUGs and you won't be disappointed And then use your superior knowledge of the game to carry them.

This exactly. Normal dungeons are easy pissy. You can carry the lowbros and fakebros if its just normal. My dps can kill anything in normal and runoff laughing.

Have you ever heard of something called “principle”?

BuddyAces

Alchemical wrote: »

I just started getting back into ESO and I met this tank in a dungeon last night.

11k health. I don't even know how you can manage to get health that low. It's seriously haunted me.

Gonna go out on a limb and say that has to be a UI bug or something. Pretty sure at level ten (lowest level to Q for dungeons)you should have more health than that even with no gear on.

idk

Left4Daud wrote: »

I won’t even bother pugging on my main tank anymore. Last time I did I got into a group where my dedicated tank build was doing 40% of the groups total dps. I just gritted my teeth and suffered through it.

And this is the real issue. Players like to complain about fake tanks but one makes you wonder why they ignore comments like this. Probably inconvenient is my guess.

Decent tanks usually go with guild groups or pugs formed in Zone. They learned their lesson long ago as you have.

idk

GreenHere wrote: »

I don't get the "It's normal, you don't need a tank" argument...

Yeah, that's true; we don't need a tank. We don't need anything. Most of us could solo this whole place. So we also don't need you.

It'd be nice if we could get someone to hold the bosses still, and guess what? You signed up to be that someone, and you aren't doing it.

Vote to Kick
Vote to Kick
Vote to Kick

Bye

This is the real answer for dealing with the fake tank. It makes more sense to vote kick the tank than to complain in the forums.

It is easy to tank normal dungeons. Just slot the undaunted taunt, kick the fake tank and move on.

JumpmanLane

VaranisArano wrote: »

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

but you can solo all but a few non dlc normal dungeons? who cares if its a fake tank.

AndrewQ84

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

2. The second major issue I have is with the people who think this is ok. I don' t care if it easy mcdungeon squisheister final boss that dies with a breath attack, you are not a tank. Do not que for a tank. Saying "It's only a normal dungeon" does not make it right. It really doesn't. You are queing for a role you are not to circumvent the que times. Tough nuggets. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que times, or roll with someone who is one.

Half the time the dps that que as tanks can;t even dps properly or are just horrendously bad but believe what they are doing is ok. This problem needs to end. Have requirements for the role implemented. If you are going to que as tank, you need to have at least 35k health, a taunt unlocked and on your bar and 5 pieces of heavy armour. If these requiements are not met or at any point in time changed during a dungeon run, a notification should pop up to tell the player that things have changed and need to be fixed. If they don't, a boot should happen.

Another easy way to fix this is to have the group kick be majority instead of all players. I notice that these people who que like this tend to be in a group with one other person. Which means you can't kick them. It is unfair. And to the OP, this problem has been around for a long long time and is not something that is recently getting bad.

LiberatorSam

Eso101rus wrote: »

Fake tanks have been a real problem for a while, there is no answer to the problem, some people are intent on putting square pegs in round holes. Even ‘tanks’ need educating, I had one turn up yesterday running ransack instead of pierce armour which was zero help to my magica toons dps. After telling him he proceeded to tell me that he was into darknet and I should expect a ban😂😂😂

Ele drain applies breech I don’t see what’s the problem here

Jeremy

idk wrote: »

@profundidob16_ESO

I am not suggesting it is right for someone to queue as a tank without having a taunt or the willingness to use it. I am stating what I think is obvious that there is really nothing Zos can do about it short of requiring a taunt be unlocked, which is the only skill required to be a tank in this game, by design. Yea, I would not tank a vet trial in HM with anything short of HA and S&B, etc, but for the most part we are talking normal dungeons with fake tanks.

However, your reply, like pretty much most of these threads, ignores the check system Zos already placed into the game. It is called vote to kick (forum member named Code mentioned this).

That is your check system. That gives players the power. If players started this it would make a big change.

They just need to unlock the undaunted taunt so they can complete the dungeon as most normal dungeons can be tanked by a dps or healer with that taunt, easily. I know as I have done it.

Seems a much better means than complaining in the forums and asking for changes that will not work, or worse, are bad for the game.

In theory that sounds good. But the kick function has it limits. It's easy to exploit by buddies who queue up together. This gives them the majority to protect one of their pals who is running a fake tank build. It also enables them to troll other players by kicking them out for no go good reason. So it works in reverse as well.

So relying on the kick function is not always an effective solution. It can be both abused and exploited.

Are normal dungeons generally easy? Sure. But that still isn't an excuse for someone to lie about their role or to cut in front of line of other DPS characters who have the decency not to lie and wait their turn.

GreenHere

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

There are two major issues I have with this.

1. The DPS that que as a tank are taking the slot away from a real tank. A real person who legit wants to learn to tank but can't because their spot was taken by this "fank" It pisses me off to no end.

2. The second major issue I have is with the people who think this is ok. I don' t care if it easy mcdungeon squisheister final boss that dies with a breath attack, you are not a tank. Do not que for a tank. Saying "It's only a normal dungeon" does not make it right. It really doesn't. You are queing for a role you are not to circumvent the que times. Tough nuggets. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que times, or roll with someone who is one.

Half the time the dps that que as tanks can;t even dps properly or are just horrendously bad but believe what they are doing is ok. This problem needs to end. Have requirements for the role implemented. If you are going to que as tank, you need to have at least 35k health, a taunt unlocked and on your bar and 5 pieces of heavy armour. If these requiements are not met or at any point in time changed during a dungeon run, a notification should pop up to tell the player that things have changed and need to be fixed. If they don't, a boot should happen.

Another easy way to fix this is to have the group kick be majority instead of all players. I notice that these people who que like this tend to be in a group with one other person. Which means you can't kick them. It is unfair. And to the OP, this problem has been around for a long long time and is not something that is recently getting bad.

But... the majority of 4 players is 3 (as in "all") players... :P

While I am on your side about the principle of fake tanks/healers, I do not advocate hard requirements like you suggest. Myself and plenty of people I know can tank just fine with less that 35K health (especially on a normal). Or 30K health.
Or 20K. Some builds have other means of tankiness and survival. Some dungeons do simply benefit from 3 or 4 dps more than running with the standard setup (like Darkshade 2, as an example). Slamming the door shut on "playing your way" isn't good, and also not likely to happen. Requiring at least one skill from a class of skills (taunts, group heals, etc) be slotted at all times in a dungeon might work, but it makes me uneasy.

The best "force a solution onto roles" thing I've heard of was just making whoever queues as tank get boss aggro by default. Manual taunting can override, but bosses target the "tank" unless forced otherwise.

Seems to me the best hope is to reason with the people who perpetrate the behavior you don't like, though. It might be largely futile, but it's a lot less disruptive than slapping artificial requirements on roles that would very likely kill a lot of the interesting and unique ideas that people do legitimately have. We need diversity, not restrictions.

Jeremy

JumpmanLane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All I ask is that the tank slots a taunt in a normal dungeon.

My healer can keep you up even if you are Squishy McGlasscannon. But for heaven's sake, I don't want to heal, DPS, buff, AND hold boss aggro on my healer.

If I wanted to hold boss aggro, I would have queued on my actual tank, and done a much better job than you are. Just slot a taunt, okay?

but you can solo all but a few non dlc normal dungeons? who cares if its a fake tank.

And what would happen if every DPS character signed up as a tank for shorter queue times on normal dungeons? That would sort of defeat the whole purpose of them signing up as fake tanks wouldn't it? Because then the queue times would be just as long (actually probably longer since there are two slots for DPS).

And that's the problem with it. They are taking advantage of the honesty of other players to shorten their own queue times. It's a selfish _ick move anyway you look at it.