Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

Neoealth

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

Allares

I can deal with a fake tank if the only thing they do is have a damn taunt slotted.. but thats rarely the case.
If you want to fake tank, go play with a pre made 4-man and stop abusing the pug waiting line for your ego....

Armatesz

I will state this here for op. So there are obviously dungeons that do in their own sense require a tank but I know of one dungeon that a tank is useless in, and that is Tempest island... A lot of the bosses simply ignore taunt even though they show they are taunted, the final boss is a big notorious one for this one. But stuff like the vet dlc dungeons? Yeah those do require a tank.
For tempest island I have lost track of how many times I have run into a group that blamed their tank and only one stayed behind to finish the dungeon. I of course got in because I was qued as a healer and then proceeded to inform them of the mechanics and reinforce that I have done the dungeon vet solo and can confirm the mechanics.

FlyingSwan

Allares wrote: »

I can deal with a fake tank if the only thing they do is have a damn taunt slotted.. but thats rarely the case.
If you want to fake tank, go play with a pre made 4-man and stop abusing the pug waiting line for your ego....

Yes, even in normals, taunting still provides control and helps others burn down the enemy faster. I guess for this reason, all ZOS could do as some sort of check is:

1 - you can only queue for a vet dungeon where you have previously cleared the normal version
2 - You have learned at least one of the taunts

On point 2, the player may of course not slot that taunt but at least if the team know they have it for a fact, if the battlefield is going crazy the team can say, 'pls slot it, look what's happening'.

What may actually help more is if ZOS provided some tutorials for tanks that include why a taunt is useful. I was in a random normal the other day and a CP100 player was asking me about tanking, and I said that in fairness in the normal dungeons you only really needed a taunt and a bit of extra survivability to cushion the healer's job, and she asked what a taunt was and how to learn one. Now, she was not a bad player, in fact considering her low level of CP contributed a lot to Falkreath (normal), but it made me think about how little info there is on tanking in ESO unless, like me, you come from other MMOs or have an inquiring mind and want to read forums and guides etc.

There are some cases where we may go in as 4DD or whatever and burn the boss down so fast a taunt would be pointless, but these runs are pre-arranged either in zone or guild chat, otherwise we should always play in a way that benefits the usual team stance, IMO.

robpr

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

profundidob16_ESO

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

NO wonder I see nothing but 1-second queue times and happy faces whenever I queue with my dedicated endgame geared tank

SickDuck

I would be so happy with 10k DPS for those guys mentioned. Sometimes group DPS fails to hit 10k altogether when I exclude mine.

IlCanis_LupuslI

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

ONly a fake tank? i had a fake tank and a fake healer, so since we had 3 people dpsing i just hung back and enjoyed them heroicly rush through the whole dungeon as if killing adds as fast as possible is something special. Easiest run of the day , never had a vet dungeon where i didnt do any damage what so ever XD

SickDuck

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos did not ignore it. They took action and forced all of us to choose one specific role to queue for.

Basically Zos forced them to chose to be a fake tank and only a fake tank.

People cried out and got their wish. The only thing Zos can add is a requirement that a taunt is unlocked. That does not mean they will use the taunt or even keep it slotted. There is no other requirement for being a tank.

In more normal dungeons it is not a big deal.

Nobody asked for what they actually did. Most of my chars are able to perform 2 roles very well and I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players. I can't imagine in what world having people queue with just a single role would make the queue faster for anyone. Locking the roles while in the dungeon is welcome (to spot the fakes who then can't hide and pretend that it's a bug), but preventing genuine "dual specced" chars from queuing with 2 roles only made things worse. So no, people didn't get their wish.

Having the system check for a taunt being unlocked is a good idea though. It will definitely not be enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

And nobody cares about normals. But dealing with fake tanks in vet is pain.

Actually players did ask for Zos do to something and they did.

Even admit it will not solve the issue if Zos required a taunt unlocked to queue as a tank (or a heal unlocked to queue as a healer).

Thing is, that is as far as Zos can go, if they ever do.

Kick the players. Kick the fake tanks.

Players asked ZOS to do something and they did something stupid. GF needs radical changes to adopt to the playerbase not the other way round. This game will never have 25% players speced as tanks (unless we cound pvp...) so might as well give people option to run 3dd setups in randoms.

There are some many things that could be as should be done with GF to get there, starting from separating DLC dungeons from others. Also it would help massively if there were role based requirements for the random reward. Like ‘taunt boss targets X-times during the run’ for tanks or ‘do at least XXX damage during the run’ for DDs or ‘cast heal or damage shields on other players for XXX damage’ for healers. BGs already have some eligibility requirements for the daily reward by giving it only to the first and second teams.

The list of opportunities is long but as long ZOS only experiments with 5 minute quick patches and leave the rest for the community for sort out, it will never work.

doggie

There are multiple ways to attack this problem. Many tanks avoid the Dungen Finder because of the low qulity of DPS. The devs need to find a way to close the gap between bad and good dps. In most other games I've played the gap was between 50 and 100%. I remeber in Age of Conan, I measured a dps to do 800 DPS, he was in full Tier 2 raid gear, but we needed atleast 1200 DPS, so he was lacking a little bit, and I had to kick him and we got a guy doing 1500 and we wrapped it up easy.

In ESO, the difference can be 5-10 times between a bad DPS and a good one. There's very little in the dungeons themselves that indicate you don't do enough dps. Most bosses can be done even if the entire team dps is less than 20k. I've done dungeons with that low dps just out of curiousity and I've been impressed at times how easy some bosss go down it just takes a little longer. There are some that spawn adds on a timer for example those don't work with low dps. But they are in minority on Non DLC vet dungeons.

To make it more intresting to use the Finder for tanks, make sure that all skills are OK'ish and not terrible. The reality is some skills cost WAY more resources than what they provide in DPS while others cost nothing and return massive DPS.

So basicly if people just use normal weapon skills, and don't animation cancel make sure that DPS atleast adds up to 20k. Today I would say if you do this you end at 10k DPS, to get to 20k you have to be carefull and select skills from all over the lines, like Assault, guilds, class and weapon skills.

If everyone who atleast tried did 20k, then dungeon finder would be alot better for tanks.

Adding loot incentives would be another way.

Glurin

Sleep724 wrote: »

With the CP cap constantly being raised it makes it easier and easier to tank non-dlc dungeons as a dps. With 3 dps, sometimes 4 in those dungeons, who cares about crowd control and chaining adds when you can burn them down so quick. Slot inner fire, hold block on the wind-ups then burn the easy vet bosses.

Get in, get out, thats what she said, so that you're not wasting your time on an easy vet dungeon that you have done too many times to count.

One of the big problems with this is people who queue as fake tanks have a tendency to complain about carrying people when they land themselves in a PUG that could really use a tank.

Jeremy

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This is increasingly becoming a very real problem and can't continue to be ignored. Wasn't the case a few months ago, but with the growing popularity of ESO you have more and more new players trying to get quick queues as tanks. Everyday i have at least one queue where i get some low cp idiot trying to tank in a full dps spec, not even a taunt slotted.

As a dps it's very common for queues to be 30 minutes long. If you sit in a 30 min queue to get one of these people in your group, and the group falls apart after the 1st challenging boss. That's potentially an hour of your time that went down the drain.

Do something about it. If you're solo queuing as a tank you need 30k+ hp, you need a taunt slotted, and if you remove them you should get automatically kicked from the dungeon. I'm tired of wasting my time because some random *** feels like it.

Trust me, this has been an issue for a lot longer than a few months. You've just been really lucky if you haven't encountered it until recently. I've made numerous threads about this problem over the years.

When fake tanks become an issue I just initiate a vote to kick them. If the group refuses to kick them - then I suddenly forgot how to heal them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

mocap

make tanks more popular. Make them as current meta. Somehow.

Merlin13KAGL

Why we need a ratings system/experience indicator, not just a checkbox.

IlCanis_LupuslI

doggie wrote: »

There are multiple ways to attack this problem. Many tanks avoid the Dungen Finder because of the low qulity of DPS. The devs need to find a way to close the gap between bad and good dps. In most other games I've played the gap was between 50 and 100%. I remeber in Age of Conan, I measured a dps to do 800 DPS, he was in full Tier 2 raid gear, but we needed atleast 1200 DPS, so he was lacking a little bit, and I had to kick him and we got a guy doing 1500 and we wrapped it up easy.

In ESO, the difference can be 5-10 times between a bad DPS and a good one. There's very little in the dungeons themselves that indicate you don't do enough dps. Most bosses can be done even if the entire team dps is less than 20k. I've done dungeons with that low dps just out of curiousity and I've been impressed at times how easy some bosss go down it just takes a little longer. There are some that spawn adds on a timer for example those don't work with low dps. But they are in minority on Non DLC vet dungeons.

To make it more intresting to use the Finder for tanks, make sure that all skills are OK'ish and not terrible. The reality is some skills cost WAY more resources than what they provide in DPS while others cost nothing and return massive DPS.

So basicly if people just use normal weapon skills, and don't animation cancel make sure that DPS atleast adds up to 20k. Today I would say if you do this you end at 10k DPS, to get to 20k you have to be carefull and select skills from all over the lines, like Assault, guilds, class and weapon skills.

If everyone who atleast tried did 20k, then dungeon finder would be alot better for tanks.

Adding loot incentives would be another way.

@doggie well yeah but the other way around when i come in on my pve raid dps, under opttimal conditions just with fracture to hit 50k+ dps and i spend 90% of my time kiting a boss or worriying about my health since the healer is dpsing it reduces my dps also by 90% since im more worried keeping myself alive+ its stressfull and no fun, if i want a challange ill just solo the darn thing not when i want a nice relaxed dungeonrun...

aeowulf

Maybe ZoS should look at why only 2 of the 5 classes are considered viable as tanks and then maybe fix those 3 that remain?

And then if over doubling the number of classes with viable tanks isn't enough maybe look at tanking in general and make it more appealing?

Problem would be resolved at the source rather than forcing finder checks which people will just abuse by unslotting taunt or swapping gear anyway.

Jeremy

aeowulf wrote: »

Maybe ZoS should look at why only 2 of the 5 classes are considered viable as tanks and then maybe fix those 3 that remain?

And then if over doubling the number of classes with viable tanks isn't enough maybe look at tanking in general and make it more appealing?

Problem would be resolved at the source rather than forcing finder checks which people will just abuse by unslotting taunt or swapping gear anyway.

Even on LOTRO when wardens were introduced (they were literally like one man armies) tanking was still unpopular. More people just like to play offensive classes. I don't really think there is anything ZOS can do about that. It's been an issue with MMORPGs since they were first introduced.

John_Falstaff

I realize that it's difficult to make people want to tank, people (and I am too) like being damage dealers. But maybe some baby steps towards the goal? Make tanks feel more useful and important and more of a general on the field rather than a grunt and a walking debuff machine? Take HoF for example, it nicely emphasizes the role of tanks. I think that proper content design should be part of the solution; make more tank-oriented mechanics, that will be a nice change.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I realize that it's difficult to make people want to tank, people (and I am too) like being damage dealers. But maybe some baby steps towards the goal? Make tanks feel more useful and important and more of a general on the field rather than a grunt and a walking debuff machine? Take HoF for example, it nicely emphasizes the role of tanks. I think that proper content design should be part of the solution; make more tank-oriented mechanics, that will be a nice change.

Even on games where having a tank was mandatory they were unpopular. And to be honest, tanks are pretty damn useful on this game - especially on the harder content. That's why having a fake one can cause such annoyance and prompt threads like this.

It couldn't hurt to try and improve the situation though. I just doubt it would have much impact. But hey, I've been wrong before.

Jeremy

Neoealth wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

That's true.

Even on normal there are a dungeons with bosses who can easily one-shot fake tanks.

For example: I was running a normal Fang Lair one time and the boss with the ghost that chains people kept one-shotting our "tank". After the third wipe he said "Oh, I guess you need a real tank for this one" then dropped. So he was fully aware he wasn't actually a tank. He just didn't give a crap.

eliisra

robpr wrote: »

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

How would you make it more attractive though? If you make tanking more attractive in terms of loot and rewards, you'll get even more bad players abusing the system and queuing as fake tanks.

That wouldn't be fair on healer or dps. They would get less rewards AND be forced to carry even more useless fake tanks lol.

Only thing I can think of that would make tanking more attractive, is making it more practical and accessible, like allowing dual builds+specs in ESO. Would really help if you could have a saved(attributes, CP and morphs) tank build and a saved dps&solo build and switch between them with a few keystrokes. I'd definitely queue a lot more frequently as tank, if that was possible.

Right now i only queue tank using a specific tank character, because to much work changing the other ones with solo&dps builds to tank back and forth.

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

Iselin

It's not "becoming" anything. It has been this way for a very long time.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

I get what you're saying, but I think tanks have to move around quite a lot on this game. So I don't think standing in one spot is why people prefer not to play tanks on ESO.

I think it has more to do with the fact people just love to see big numbers when they hit things. Some other issues might be the game's block or die approach to tanking - which can be frustrating at times, especially if you have something obstructing your view so you can't watch for animations. I also think Eliisra hits on an important issue in that it's expensive and cumbersome to use different builds on this game so unless tanking is your first choice you're likely not going to play as one nearly so often.

It would be nice if this game let you save multiple builds and CP/gear arrangements so you could more easily play different builds.

But ultimately none of these would likely solve the problem. It might alleviate them some, but so long as more people prefer to play damage-dealing classes this is always going to be an issue and always has.

doggie

eliisra wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

How would you make it more attractive though? If you make tanking more attractive in terms of loot and rewards, you'll get even more bad players abusing the system and queuing as fake tanks.

Could be Tank specific rewards, not new motifs or anything valuable. Like Tank gear. One thing that annoy me is that Tanks are "forced" to wear a few specific sets like ebon/alkosh, because they're the best. And prevents the tanks from experimenting with the many other cool sets.

One way could be that tanks could earn the right to always have the 5th set bonus from a set they have in their bank or inv. But can choose to wear another armor. That wat they can escape the Alkosh/Ebon curse and wear something more fun, and experiment like DPS. This could work only in PVe and not in Cyrodil or BG for example.

They could also increase the Damage bosses do this way, so you would also need those Tanky /heal builds.

FlyingSwan

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

Indeed. Currently, tanking is one of those jobs you do because you know no one else is going to do it, or if they do, they'll do it badly. Like washing up, or clearing a blocked lavatory.

Jeremy

doggie wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

How would you make it more attractive though? If you make tanking more attractive in terms of loot and rewards, you'll get even more bad players abusing the system and queuing as fake tanks.

Could be Tank specific rewards, not new motifs or anything valuable. Like Tank gear. One thing that annoy me is that Tanks are "forced" to wear a few specific sets like ebon/alkosh, because they're the best. And prevents the tanks from experimenting with the many other cool sets.

One way could be that tanks could earn the right to always have the 5th set bonus from a set they have in their bank or inv. But can choose to wear another armor. That wat they can escape the Alkosh/Ebon curse and wear something more fun, and experiment like DPS. This could work only in PVe and not in Cyrodil or BG for example.

They could also increase the Damage bosses do this way, so you would also need those Tanky /heal builds.

Why are tanks forced to wear those two sets?

I tank vet dungeons all the time. I've never worn either.

doggie

Jeremy wrote: »

Why are tanks forced to wear those two sets?

I tank vet dungeons all the time. I've never worn either.

Mostly because you do dungeons/trials faster. It's the same as with a low DPS, you can do it, but with someone who do good dps you do it faster.

Jeremy

FlyingSwan wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , it's not really about them being useful per se, of course tanks are useful (and indeed in many cases necessary) in vet content. What I'm about is, in addition to usefulness, making it more fun. ^^ Simply knowing that without you the group wouldn't manage the dungeon is important, but not enough. I would rather tanks play active role, feel themselves a driving force, tactical facilitators. Walking Warrior between statues or Reassembly Commitee is much more dynamic than just standing on a spot and not dying.

Indeed. Currently, tanking is one of those jobs you do because you know no one else is going to do it, or if they do, they'll do it badly. Like washing up, or clearing a blocked lavatory.

There are people out there who enjoy tanking (I'm one of them).

So that's not always the case. There are people who do enjoy the play style.

The problem is there is just a lot more people who enjoy playing damage-dealing classes. And that's always been the case - no matter how intricate or strategic they make tanking. As I alluded to in my earlier post - you could not have made a more strategic or effective class than the warden was when it was introduced on LOTRO - and tanking was still unpopular. So I don't believe it really matters how interesting or powerful you make a tanking class - it would still be under-played when compared to DPS classes.

VaranisArano

Jeremy wrote: »

doggie wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Tank role is not attractive - no tanks around - DDs have to wait 20+ mins in a que because no tanks - DDs que as tank because of wait

^ that neverending cycle needs to be fixed first before complaining. If tank role would be attractive, then you will meet much less fake tanks and queues would be shorter.

How would you make it more attractive though? If you make tanking more attractive in terms of loot and rewards, you'll get even more bad players abusing the system and queuing as fake tanks.

Could be Tank specific rewards, not new motifs or anything valuable. Like Tank gear. One thing that annoy me is that Tanks are "forced" to wear a few specific sets like ebon/alkosh, because they're the best. And prevents the tanks from experimenting with the many other cool sets.

One way could be that tanks could earn the right to always have the 5th set bonus from a set they have in their bank or inv. But can choose to wear another armor. That wat they can escape the Alkosh/Ebon curse and wear something more fun, and experiment like DPS. This could work only in PVe and not in Cyrodil or BG for example.

They could also increase the Damage bosses do this way, so you would also need those Tanky /heal builds.

Why are tanks forced to wear those two sets?

I tank vet dungeons all the time. I've never worn either.

Those are trial tank sets, used to boost the group to ensure maximum efficiency at clearing the content.

They arent as beneficial in group dungeons, especially if you PUG regularly.

I run Ebon when I PUG anyway, because I have it and no one's complained about 1k extra health yet. Plus, it sorta advertises that I'm an actual tank, you know? Nobody worries that I dont have a taunt when I show up with sword and board and those red glowy balls floating around.

Fun fact: if you wear two of the glowy ball sets, they'll sync up when you transit. So my Ebon + Worm gives me glowy/strobing purple floating balls, which is great for getting people to ask what set I'm wearing.