Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues.

profundidob16_ESO

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

actually there should be regulations and limits to the Group finder auto made groups so that dps can only dps, healers heal and tanks tank.

BUT I also agree that they should only apply to group finder groups. If you want to "play as you want" with 4dd jack of all trades in a custom premade group then by all means do so. But people queuing for a proper auto grouping experience should get a proper tank and healer

TheGreatBlackBear

On the plus side. I love it when a fake tank decides to a quick random and rolls VSCP or VBRF. The look on their faces must be priceless. Those dungeons are the most dangerous. They drop "tanks" without a single fight.

SpacemanSpiff1

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

actually there should be regulations and limits to the Group finder auto made groups so that dps can only dps, healers heal and tanks tank.

BUT I also agree that they should only apply to group finder groups. If you want to "play as you want" with 4dd jack of all trades in a custom premade group then by all means do so. But people queuing for a proper auto grouping experience should get a proper tank and healer

I disagree. I've carried pugs on my healer and my tank, ending up having to do a significant chunk of the damage. Taking that away means no completion.

p00tx

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

actually there should be regulations and limits to the Group finder auto made groups so that dps can only dps, healers heal and tanks tank.

BUT I also agree that they should only apply to group finder groups. If you want to "play as you want" with 4dd jack of all trades in a custom premade group then by all means do so. But people queuing for a proper auto grouping experience should get a proper tank and healer

No, people looking for a proper grouping experience should bring their own healer and tank, and not expect to get everything they want from a random queue. Make friends, diversify your builds, and form a group. It's that simple. If you can't manage that, you deal with whatever you get via PuG-finder. It's a normal dungeon for pete's sake. If you need a real tank and healer to get through it (barring DLCs, because those are insane at any level), the problem is with you, not the queueing system.

FrancisCrawford

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Neoealth wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Fake tank is okay in normal dungeons.
Fake tank is not okay in vet dungeons.
Fake tank is never to be accepted in trials.

There are low level players doing fake tank in normals dungeons to grind xp. Lets be fair and tolerate them in normal runs.

Because queuing as dps is lame experience in eso.

NO!

It is not okay. It can cause a real problem even in normal if it is a dlc dungeon. All it takes is the healer to slightly less experienced for the group to be a fail if the tank is a faker. Fake tanks disgust me. Their attitudes disgust me. They are selfish, lazy players who expect the other 3 people to carry them.

They always annoyingly state with glee at the end "see guys told you it will be fine" almost every time. But they got carried the whole way and made the dungeon an annoying experience. That is best case scenario, worst case is, the team fails and I have to re queue again. Tell me, why should we tolerate jerks like that?

That's true.

Even on normal there are a dungeons with bosses who can easily one-shot fake tanks.

For example: I was running a normal Fang Lair one time and the boss with the ghost that chains people kept one-shotting our "tank". After the third wipe he said "Oh, I guess you need a real tank for this one" then dropped. So he was fully aware he wasn't actually a tank. He just didn't give a crap.

Not necessarily. I've got several decent tanks which I use for end-game stuff. But levelling a tank is not easy, because you can't do any damage overground. You level to 50 pretty quick but you are still lacking skills, especially as you need to unlock some DPS skills to be able to walk across overground without taking half an hour to get anywhere, or pick up skyshards in delves without grouping with somebody who can kill a wolf in under 5 minutes. I've gone into a random normal dungeon before and not been able to tank sufficiently well because my character wasn't ready. Surely better that I own up and quit - I've never seen a light attack spamming bow build voluntarily leave a dungeon. And it's a tank, how long did the replacement take to arrive? Likewise I've been in plenty of dungeons and got the blame because I can't take every piece of damage from every trash mob AND boss without any heals.

That's a good point. Leveling a tank requires learning a lot of different skill lines.

EVERY magicka DPS character I've ever leveled can also heal; in fact, I always level them with destro/resto builds. ("Always" is not an exaggeration, because once the gear is made, the same stuff is used for the next character, and the next one after that ...) Technically something similar is true of tanking; get the first two S&B skills to the morph point and, boom, you're some kind of tank. But what I really want before I start tanking (and so far I never have) is:

• 1H&S up to the ultimate (which is to be my safety valve while I learn, except maybe on a DK who has Magma/Corrosive).
• Destro up to Elemental Drain (so I can backbar an ice staff)
• DW up to Deadly Cloak
• Bow all the way (if it's a stamina character I level through actual combat)
• Resto all the way (if it's a magicka character)
• All of the above, if it's an Argonian

idk

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

actually there should be regulations and limits to the Group finder auto made groups so that dps can only dps, healers heal and tanks tank.

BUT I also agree that they should only apply to group finder groups. If you want to "play as you want" with 4dd jack of all trades in a custom premade group then by all means do so. But people queuing for a proper auto grouping experience should get a proper tank and healer

It is an odd opinion that GF groups, and only GF groups, should be gimped as you suggest.

That would solve one issue, Since the talented tanks already avoid GF due to the low DPS found there this idea would drive away skilled players that can carry most GF groups with their DPS while healing very well. The complaints about how bad GF is will skyrocket.

I cannot tell you how many times I out damage both dps while keeping them alive.

FrancisCrawford

Agenericname wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

You're right, it would solve at least my problems. I'd likely never step foot, or paw, into a dungeon again.

I often do 40%+ of DPS AND full healing. I'd use Groupfinder less to heal if I couldn't contribute to DPS.

NordSwordnBoard

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

You're adjusting their stats, so put yourself in the support roles' shoes as it is now:
You have an almost instant que time
Replacing you is more difficult than DD
You can adjust your output between support and damage as needed by the group/content

Your suggestion:
Que times the same
Replacing you is the same
You cannot compensate the group where it lacks, replacing the weak link becomes the only option besides leaving

Your system would force me to have less tolerance for bad DDs as a support player. Since I'm providing above "average" support, why should I settle for longer or incomplete runs? Plenty of DDs in the que, re-roll until one is above "average".
Why would I choose losing 8k of my dps contribution for the group so the two DDs can get bonus of (10% of 15k each "average dps") 3k dps? To ensure the other support isn't fake?

Why gimp myself to benefit role rigidity that results in a net dps loss for the group? I'm not, I'll skip the instant que in exchange for a longer wait to organize a more viable group together from guild or zone.

TLDR; Stat penalizing will reduce all groups' dps, but not all groups have a fake that needs to be eliminated. You would penalize people who don't need or deserve it. It will never happen.


grammar edit

idk

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks. If you are not vote kicking fake tanks you are enabling the problem. Start kicking them.

MartiniDaniels

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks. If you are not vote kicking fake tanks you are enabling the problem. Start kicking them.

Why kick? let them tank, humiliate them in chat and let them feel worthless, if you kick you will wait for another tank for more then 1 min and after 1 minute healer will leave too.. and 2 dps staying waiting for god knows what instead of grinding/farming, what's the point? just have fun of fake tank and then leave

And I just lol from people who said that 25k hp enough for tank.. many vet mechanics do 25-30k damage through block, so a single error of positioning will wipe this tank. You should be a master of dlc mechanics to reliably play with such tank... and not to say how much pain for healer is to save this tank sorry back, especially when he will try to dps instead of normal tank rotation.

Honestly saying I don't see many fake tanks in vets.. weak tanks yes, but not fake.. fake usually go for normal random for daily rewards and then end up in Scalecaller or Moonhunter, and that's where all "fun" starts.. so it's ZOS blame that they don't separate dungeons in 3 categories instead of 2.

Drdeath20

Metafae wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

But we do come across a lot of fake DPS. I don't what the base role of those fake DPS is, maybe a greengrocer or newspaper boy or something, but by god, if I have to watch another numbskull in heavy armour leaping about with a 2H sword, pulling 10k of damage and thinking he's a 'damage dealer', I'm liable to remove my own eyes with an ice cream scoop so I no longer have to see the pitiful capabilities of my fellow gamers.

Yeah.
The day people say you need X Y and Z to queue as a tank, I want to be able to say you need 30k DPS on a 3mil Target Dummy to mark youself as a dps.

Fair is fair

How do you figure?

If you dont use a taunt you are not a tank

If you have low dps you are still a bad damage dealer.

MonkLoHan

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Fake tanks are becoming a real problem for solo queues..

How many people actually run tanks? That is probably the biggest problem I have with this game, everyone wants to be DPS but no one wants to tank. I bet every single one of you reading this thread has something like 8 DPS characters, 1-2 healers and either zero or one tank.

So, unless more people create and run tanks, there will ALWAYS be a problem. Especially if at any given time on the server, you have 80% DPS, 15% healers and 5% healers online at any given time.

In fact, I wish there was some way that zos can show exactly how many people are logged in at any given time with DPS, Healer, and Tank. I'd bet anything tanks will be single digit percentage.

BejaProphet

The idea to implement a handicap or buff based on role will never ever happen. All the posts arguing with that idea is simply derailing the thread for no reason.

idk

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

MaleAmazon

How many people actually run tanks? That is probably the biggest problem I have with this game, everyone wants to be DPS but no one wants to tank. I bet every single one of you reading this thread has something like 8 DPS characters, 1-2 healers and either zero or one tank.

So, unless more people create and run tanks, there will ALWAYS be a problem. Especially if at any given time on the server, you have 80% DPS, 15% healers and 5% healers online at any given time.

Probably true. My 'tank' is a DPS that switches gear to tank (and tanks quite well). I don´t know why anyone would suffer through questing with a tank since it is totally unnecessary. I wouldn´t even think of creating a sub 50 dedicated tank.

It´s more of a problem the lower you get though. On higher level vet dungeons tanks seem to be easier to find, also they know what they´re doing.

Would be nice if there was some overland content that required taunting and tanking, like a group boss.. that way tanks might be shown some appreciation.

El_Borracho

Said it earlier. ZOS should make it possible to report the fake tanks so they can be banned from dungeons for a period of time. They do the same for people who "abuse" area chat. And I think everyone would agree that a fake tank has much more of an impact on other players' games than some bozo saying he boinked another player's mom.

Donny_Vito

Just get rid of Taunt abilities (or change "buff" it gives). And all monsters automatically aggro to the Tank role upon entering combat.

Silver_Strider

Maybe if ZOS would stop nerfing us and actually help the classes that struggle to tank, we'd have at least slightly more tanks available.

Then, they'd need to do something about Bad DPS that only spam LAs in dungeons so that I'm not writhing in pain about how slow eveything is dying, making my job more stressful than it needs to be.

Fix these 2 issues and I'd at least Tank more frequently, that's for sure.

MartiniDaniels

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

VaranisArano

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Oddly enough, every time I queue as a tank on my tank I never seem to come across these fake tanks. Funny that.

Obviously. Do you have a point?

He does. Make your own tank and eliminate the possibility of “clever” damage guys trying to be tanks for faster groups.

Do you?

Doesnt help when I queue on my healer, wanting to heal, instead of queueing on my tanks, of which I have several, wanting to tank.

Or are you saying I always have to play my tank? I can't ever play my healer and expect to get a tank who will actually hold boss aggro?

idk

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

In most normal dungeons a DPS can tank it. You can slot the taunt and move on without the fake tank. It is not that hard. I have tanked and healed on DPS in normal and still did good damage.

Since you seem to think it is fun with a fake tank much of the time and are under the misguided notion that fake tanks are made to suffer by letting them clear the dungeon it is odd you are even in this thread.

Donny_Vito

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

I'm pretty sure if you kick that fake tank from the beginning then he still has the 15 minute timer from the last time he queued?

Agenericname

Donny_Vito wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

I'm pretty sure if you kick that fake tank from the beginning then he still has the 15 minute timer from the last time he queued?

No, they dont. You get the penalty if you leave, but you wont if you're booted.

Donny_Vito

Agenericname wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

I'm pretty sure if you kick that fake tank from the beginning then he still has the 15 minute timer from the last time he queued?

No, they dont. You get the penalty if you leave, but you wont if you're booted.

It must have been changed at some point recently then. The timer used to be there after you were kicked.

MartiniDaniels

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks.

And how is that working out?

Exactly my point. You let them finish they get what they want. They could care less what you think of them. They do not know you nor care to.

They got what they wanted because you let them.

By letting them fake tank the dungeon you are essentially saying it is ok and accepting it.

Well, if you kick fake tank from the beginning then he just re-queues immediately to other random, where tank is not direly needed and get what he wants - fast daily rewards, and so continues to do this each day.

And if you not kick:

1. You make him suffer in battle and waste time and be cursed by entire group so you force him to leave by himself with queue penalty, I'm sure his mood is much worse even if he states the opposite, and next day he will think if it's worth it;
2. With fake tank any difficult dungeon run is ruined anyway and kicking won't save your from extra useless waiting for replacement.. which you may spent fishing/stealing/questing etc while being out of dungeon and in usual GF..
3. Also it might be very good dps in place of fake tank, so you will complete dungeon of medium difficulty much faster - why to kick him if he is so good?
4. And fake tank adds some challenge, it can be fun sometimes.. not always but quite often.
5. And if you wanna farm specific set.. then grind with your own tank, dps chars are for fun, tanks are best for grinding, healers for social interacting, why grind with dps?

In most normal dungeons a DPS can tank it. You can slot the taunt and move on without the fake tank. It is not that hard. I have tanked and healed on DPS in normal and still did good damage.

Since you seem to think it is fun with a fake tank much of the time and are under the misguided notion that fake tanks are made to suffer by letting them clear the dungeon it is odd you are even in this thread.

Where did I wrote "letting them clear dungeon"? Fake tanks won't clear any difficult dungeon if they are not very good at dps. And if they are good this simply turns into 3.5 dps run, what's the problem? and "fake" dps on the opposite can be carried over by good healer, tank and other dps through any dungeon, so what's bigger problem - fake dps or fake tanks?

So what I say - if fake/lazy/farmer dps queues as fake tank, this is a disaster, yes, and it should be punished in chat and by gameplay. But if good dps queues as tank this can be just more difficult run for dlc vets and even faster and easier run for other dungeons. And you compare random fake tank with good tank. Random tank can also be just weak/hybrid so in dlc vet he may be even more burden to the group then good dps as a fake tank.

ZonasArch

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@Meld777

So, if my tank/healer can contribute 10k dps, you want it to be only 2k dps to ensure I'm not a fake? All that will ensure is the run takes longer.

And that we cease going into GF to help others out.

Cannot tell you how many people have gotten their first clear of a vet dungeon after I have explained the mechanics. Yes, I am brave enough to do vet randoms from time to time.

It is funny how we do not see many saying they are vote kicking fake tanks. If you are not vote kicking fake tanks you are enabling the problem. Start kicking them.

Why kick? let them tank, humiliate them in chat and let them feel worthless, if you kick you will wait for another tank for more then 1 min and after 1 minute healer will leave too.. and 2 dps staying waiting for god knows what instead of grinding/farming, what's the point? just have fun of fake tank and then leave

And I just lol from people who said that 25k hp enough for tank.. many vet mechanics do 25-30k damage through block, so a single error of positioning will wipe this tank. You should be a master of dlc mechanics to reliably play with such tank... and not to say how much pain for healer is to save this tank sorry back, especially when he will try to dps instead of normal tank rotation.

Honestly saying I don't see many fake tanks in vets.. weak tanks yes, but not fake.. fake usually go for normal random for daily rewards and then end up in Scalecaller or Moonhunter, and that's where all "fun" starts.. so it's ZOS blame that they don't separate dungeons in 3 categories instead of 2.

This is one of the few reasonable solutions here. 3 categories would solve a lot of issues.

And yes, most fakers go for normal, do their daily random, and are done with it. Never seem any on vet, tbh.

ZonasArch

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Just get rid of Taunt abilities (or change "buff" it gives). And all monsters automatically aggro to the Tank role upon entering combat.

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Just get rid of Taunt abilities (or change "buff" it gives). And all monsters automatically aggro to the Tank role upon entering combat.

That would be hilarious but would kill many of the boss mobs mechanics that scatter AOE and stuff.

sampol212

You people really need tank on Normal mode?

I run every day a normal dungeon as a fake tank, mostly with people like 20, 30 Lvl and we melt it like butter - its a speed run and no one complaints. No one ever died on that runs. Once one of the players wrote something in chat about me being a fake tank - but he realised fast that it works well and stayed silent for the rest of the activity.

If you need tank in Normal dungeon then something is wrong here. I run solo and duo many times when I was farming Burning Spellweave and had no problem:) and I play Magicka Warden which is cosidered one of the worst dps classes.

profundidob16_ESO

p00tx wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Easy solution that I read before on these forums:

When you queue with group finder, add group finder buffs/debuffs:

Tank: -80% damage output, +10% resistances
Healer: -80% damage output, +30% healing output
DD: +10% damage output

Done. Problem solved. Fake people won't queue anymore if their skills hit like naked lvl 3. Correct groups will get very nice buffs.

no thanks. healers don't need extra heals, and we contribute damage.
Additionally, it would hurt pugs that have low dps. The tank and healer would not be able to contribute any damage. It also hurts pre-made groups that run whatever roles they want.

actually there should be regulations and limits to the Group finder auto made groups so that dps can only dps, healers heal and tanks tank.

BUT I also agree that they should only apply to group finder groups. If you want to "play as you want" with 4dd jack of all trades in a custom premade group then by all means do so. But people queuing for a proper auto grouping experience should get a proper tank and healer

No, people looking for a proper grouping experience should bring their own healer and tank, and not expect to get everything they want from a random queue. Make friends, diversify your builds, and form a group. It's that simple. If you can't manage that, you deal with whatever you get via PuG-finder. It's a normal dungeon for pete's sake. If you need a real tank and healer to get through it (barring DLCs, because those are insane at any level), the problem is with you, not the queueing system.

It's not about having friends or forming pre-made groups. I'm in 3 non-trading guilds of which one is completely casual just for the social aspect while the other is hardcore and only yesterday after daily pugging on some baby alts I logged back on to my endgame main tank to do a no-death run in veteran Moonhunter and complete challenger in that dungeon. My point is I'm not writing what I wrote because I cannot form a competent group to complete a dungeon with. I'm advocating group finder changes because carrying dead weight or people not doing their core role job is not fun. If you sign up for a specific role you should try to play that role at the very least.

also @idk @SpacemanSpiff1

That being said I see the point you all make and it's a very good one. Strict role limitations as I suggested would indeed take away alot of nice combinations and opportunities like the ones you mentioned and therefore make completion rates even worse rather than better. I see that now.

Still I feel it's very wrong that group finder roles are being dead weight or not doing the job they signed up for. If role limitations are not an solution I instead propose implementing checks for each role in the game. Something like a mini solo trial which is a tutorial at the same time for each role you want to certify in with increasing difficulty each round and that is your ticket to queuing group content in pug finder. The further you get into this mini role solo trial the tougher the content you get access to kinda like normal group dungeons currently unlock based on minimum level but now based on skill

profundidob16_ESO

sampol212 wrote: »

You people really need tank on Normal mode?

I run every day a normal dungeon as a fake tank, mostly with people like 20, 30 Lvl and we melt it like butter - its a speed run and no one complaints. No one ever died on that runs. Once one of the players wrote something in chat about me being a fake tank - but he realised fast that it works well and stayed silent for the rest of the activity.

If you need tank in Normal dungeon then something is wrong here. I run solo and duo many times when I was farming Burning Spellweave and had no problem:) and I play Magicka Warden which is cosidered one of the worst dps classes.

only yesterday I played 3 random dailies on my baby tank. In Spindleclutch I normal as tank I witnessed 2 dps lowbies lvl 11 and 12 that are light attacking the whole dungeon where the lvl 15 healer did nothing but spam mutagen as his only healing spell. Somehow the 2 dps weren't doing any damage and mobs just kept on living and living and I had to retaunt and retaunt and maximize heavy attacks and pots usage just to have the stamina to taunt all mobs since they didn't die easy. Thank god my baby tank was specced for pure tanking (not dps) and somehow my dps still was 50% just with puncture and talons. No response at all when you type in chat (maybe they are russian ??)

During the parts with the big packs and a boss they would have died nonstop if I didn't actually went classic tanking and taunting ALL mobs (not just the big ones) so yes, a tank is clearly necessary in normal group finder dungeons where it feels harder than some of the HM I've done.