PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Bergzorn

lucky_dutch wrote: »

I’m not saying the changes are well thought out, in saying shield stacking was obnoxious and had to go.

Not a single thing changed in direct regard to shield stacking.

Anzriel

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

I am sorry the evil magsorc has killed you in PvP, but here are thousands of us who can't care the less about the whole ESO PvP fiasco and love to quest, challenge themselves with public dungeons and world bosses and so on.

They are DESTROYING our gameplay and when you destroy someone's reason to play, he... surprise... shall just stop playing.

I only and exclusively do 1 to 2 trials a week and then 4+ a day of questing, world bosses etc.

Do you believe I am going to pay ESO+ for 1 / 2 trials and that's it? No, because 4+ hours now are not filled by ESO any more, and I am pushed to find another MMO do to so.

Keep in mind shields also have resistance now, so in pve especially that should help quite a bit. They may be smaller, but they can also take more hits. That should at least help somewhat.

Tonturri

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

You couldn't face tank against anyone except people who didnt know what they are doing/had bad builds. Unless you mean spamming defenses and delaying your inevitable death, but then anyone can do that.

Source - have a glass cannon mag blade, stamblade, and a mag sorc meant to actually do stuff (so none of that 'no impen' bs).

GrigorijMalahevich

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

Nicko_Lps

Biro123 wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

Can you elaborate on “glass cannon stamden” part please

Medium 2h Dw

I know Stamden can never be truly ‘glass cannon’ but my point was it’s a build built for damage not survivability and yet it still struggles to break through the outrageous strength of shield stacking on live. It had to go.

That’s not to say that the changes they’ve made are ideal but Magsorcs will definitely be ok if played more cautiously.

And that guy who's wailing in the sorc' for over a minute is getting instantly exploded by the sorcs cannon right? That's how he lasts for a minute with his glass defence?
People really need to understand that very very few live sorcs build as glass cannons. There is no glass and no cannon.

It was a BUFF with a deeper meaning of of the worst kind of nerf.

But really why does it have to travel slow?

Do incaps travel slow?
Do sup attacks travel slow?
Do any stamina ability travel slow?

Elder Stamina Online.

Biro123

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Lucky, how much have you played magsorc in PvP?

My 3rd most played class overall and I only PvP with it.

Shield stacking was way too strong though. I can sustain against a single attacker pretty much indefinitely on live.

The shield changes put a massive dent in Magsorc 1vX but overall the LA changes are probably a buff to small-scale and group so Magsorc will be absolutely fine. Still the kings of BGs too.

So can any other class, properly built.

Your point is?

Other classes have to build for it. Magsorcs just focused on stacking Mag & Mag recovery then slapped 2 shields on their bars and become unkillable.

You’re trying to defend the indefensible because you’re too accustomed to your crutch. 1vX aside, Magsorc will be top-tier in Murkmire. Almost certainly the best mag class, only challenged by Magplar.

Then please explain how the most common magsorc build that uses shacklebreaker, also needs lich and light armour to be able to sustain it, yet any old stam build can put a damage set with it, in heavy for free defence, yet sustain fine...

Building for defence, lol.

Emma_Overload

Biro123 wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

Can you elaborate on “glass cannon stamden” part please

Medium 2h Dw

I know Stamden can never be truly ‘glass cannon’ but my point was it’s a build built for damage not survivability and yet it still struggles to break through the outrageous strength of shield stacking on live. It had to go.

That’s not to say that the changes they’ve made are ideal but Magsorcs will definitely be ok if played more cautiously.

And that guy who's wailing in the sorc' for over a minute is getting instantly exploded by the sorcs cannon right? That's how he lasts for a minute with his glass defence?
People really need to understand that very very few live sorcs build as glass cannons. There is no glass and no cannon.

Haha, no kidding! Why do all these alleged OP sorcs bother face-tanking armies of stamdens and stamblades for 2 minutes, when they could just vaporize them their glass cannons?

Kova

I seriously want an answer to these questions, and no one is willing to hang themselves to answer them:

If you have a high damage build "wailing on a shield stacking sorc for over a minute", then how are you doing that without running out of resources or having to actively heal damage from the sorc?

See what we're saying? You're perfectly fine with being able to pump out and mitigate damage and never run out of juice, but you get upset if a sorc gets to?

What's the logic? Make everyone understand why your playstyle is fair and balanced, but the no skill shield stacker needs a nerf.

I can't think of any reason outside of player ego.

lucky_dutch

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

Biro123

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

Now that, I can agree with.

I've always thought that building for shields, or building for mitigation/heals should both be viable choices for all mag classes.

Nicko_Lps

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

katorga

Magsorcs just focused on stacking Mag & Mag recovery then slapped 2 shields on their bars and become unkillable.

Umm. That was never the case. I've been playing sorc since release, and every other class had no issues killing me, even well before the shield nerfs started. If sorcs were actually "unkillable", there would of been hundreds of youtube videos documenting the fact over the years.

For what its worth my most effective 1vx magsorc build stacked stam regen, for dodge rolling and used dark deal for stam regen. Shields go down in value the more opponents you have, while dodge goes up.

My Templar, on the other hand, can be build to be almost immortal, but it is more of a group/bg healer build.

MalagenR

Valera Progib wrote: »

Defense; sustain; damage - you can choose only two.

stam users get sustain / defense / damage because high stam sustain allows for unlimited dodge rolls, i swear some people are not playing the same game.

Lord-Otto

Lucky, sorcs sure didn't just slap on max mag and recovery.
There's stamina regen and pool, too. Impen/well-fitted. Health to get above 20k.
And the mag regen needed to be extremely high.
This meant a sustain set and then some, like the hybrid Shackle/Amber sets and sustain food/drinks.
I say putting on no damage set to sustain your defense is quite the sacrifice. This isn't Orsinium anymore, when I could actually sustain 1 Kena, 5 Juli, 2 Torug, 3 Willpower. THAT was no sacrifice. Those days are long gone.

Miswar

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

I am sorry the evil magsorc has killed you in PvP, but here are thousands of us who can't care the less about the whole ESO PvP fiasco and love to quest, challenge themselves with public dungeons and world bosses and so on.

They are DESTROYING our gameplay and when you destroy someone's reason to play, he... surprise... shall just stop playing.

I only and exclusively do 1 to 2 trials a week and then 4+ a day of questing, world bosses etc.

Do you believe I am going to pay ESO+ for 1 / 2 trials and that's it? No, because 4+ hours now are not filled by ESO any more, and I am pushed to find another MMO do to so.

I’m not saying the changes are well thought out, in saying shield stacking was obnoxious and had to go.

Whether they’ve adequately replaced it with an alternative means of survival is another matter.

They haven’t DESTROYED your gameplay though, you now just have to build more resistances into your build which means you’ll kill things a bit slower. You should still be able to tackle all the same challenges though. In solo-PvE more than any other form of gameplay you can adapt to changes.

Hmmm... hmmmm.. How many hours have you played with mag sorc?

This contains a lot information that pretty much tells me you have not played.

In last week there has not been single sorc in PvP that was unkillable due to their current shield.

Knocked many of them out with heavy armour stamblade, mag templar,.. hell evens some tied with ICE mag warden. Yes.. you can lose to mag sorc BUT and that will require that the sorc knows what she/he is doing meaning that they can time their burst. Most of the sorcs have no clue about that timing.

The shields last maxium of 6s and yes you can either wait with your burst or just go right through it. It wohn't take much to get rid of the shields.... and yes some will shield stack for a while but guess they are doing 0% damage while they are it.. meaning you can continue to deal damage to them or you can sort out your own buffs and resources.

The thing is that most of the current sorcs are NOT based on dps sets. Bulk of them have 1 SUSTAIN set already (many run with 2 sustain sets due obnoxious resource sustains).. Shacklebreaker, Amberblasm, Lich etc. I really don't understand where people get the idea that you can run mag sorc with 2 dps sets? ... I guess you can if your zerg surfing your way around pvp. You can propably run NUDE in that scenario.

Also you know what.. guess if I had to run 2 sustain sets with heavy stamblade or even mag templar? No I did not.. also you know what I could keep on going without any issues relating to choice between defense and offense... guess also what.. yes I could out dps the CURRENT sorcs with those example classes easily despite even NOT been that good with either of the classes.

Considering this above and these lets nerf class to oblivion stuff ..well it is mind boggling to say it nicely.

The biggest thing I did notice was the ridicilious amout of Stamdens, Stam DK's etc witht their heavy armours making the whole pvp experience one obnoxious grind festival...with having no worries about dps, resources, having fastastic self heals as well... happy days for them already... you want the light armour classes to force go into heavy armour rubbish?... because most of the players that have not quit due to nerfmire will definately do so.

The shield stacking you so despise is getting worse... granted that you wohn't be killed as often since the already mediocre dps is getting lowered... meaning that you wohn't get killed that often (which I assume you do due to nature of your post) but you wohn't kill them either that easily since those sorcs that are left will very like group with healbots.. and yes now they use heavy armour as well.

The pvp genre is getting very obnoxious as well... I would say 60% of the pvp population are running with these ridicilious tanky dps heavy armour meta sets making the current state of the game like WORLD OF TANKS addon.

Personally would like to see quite the opposite...make ligth armour and medium armours worthwile so the battles wohn't continue forever AND if anything that needs to be looked at is the absurd amount damage these heavy armour builds can deliver.. which they do when these already described heavy armour metas collides with their designated healbots ofcourse.

...also I haven't seen anyone mention this new skill MEDIDATE which broken beyond words. You can use with any class... just spam it couple of times.. you take pretty much 0% damage while on it and buff.. all your resources are full again... and we can continue these forever fights. Thank god many haven't notice to use it because it works with every class.

In the end we all play for fun I guess and this is drifting very fast from that conclusion for many of us oldtimers.

Browsed these recent pages through and spotted nothing new from developers nor did I read anything from general forums that they are rethinking these nerf visions? The amount of players fed up at the moment due these current heavy armour meta sets is very high indeed. Yes, it ain't even the lag that has declined the active number players on pvp especially but the above.,. and that will only get worse in the future.

Anyways.. all meant the respectful way just wish people would think about what these nerfs will actually deliver in future of the game. It ain't pretty vision to say at least.

lucky_dutch

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

This post is riddled with personal bias. I’ve never met a Magblade in my whole time of playing that slots 2 shields, path and mutagen.

Magblades are also desperately short of bar space as one has to go on merciless and there are two more must-slots in cloak and shade. By the time you add your spammable and cc in there the bars are just as crowded as Magsorcs.

The shield nerf hits both classes equally hard but magblades also saw a nerf to multiple healing abilities, their execute and a huge nerf to their main burst ability.

[snip]
[edited for flaming]

lucky_dutch

katorga wrote: »

Magsorcs just focused on stacking Mag & Mag recovery then slapped 2 shields on their bars and become unkillable.

Umm. That was never the case. I've been playing sorc since release, and every other class had no issues killing me, even well before the shield nerfs started. If sorcs were actually "unkillable", there would of been hundreds of youtube videos documenting the fact over the years.

For what its worth my most effective 1vx magsorc build stacked stam regen, for dodge rolling and used dark deal for stam regen. Shields go down in value the more opponents you have, while dodge goes up.

My Templar, on the other hand, can be build to be almost immortal, but it is more of a group/bg healer build.

You’ve deliberately only quoted part of my post there.

The other part explained that I was talking about shield stacking Magsorcs being unkillable vs a single aggressor. They can sustain almost indefinitely.

Vs multiple opponents, that obviously isn’t the case.

Nicko_Lps

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

This post is riddled with personal bias. I’ve never met a Magblade in my whole time of playing that slots 2 shields, path and mutagen.

Magblades are also desperately short of bar space as one has to go on merciless and there are two more must-slots in cloak and shade. By the time you add your spammable and cc in there the bars are just as crowded as Magsorcs.

The shield nerf hits both classes equally hard but magblades also saw a nerf to multiple healing abilities, their execute and a huge nerf to their main burst ability.

[snip]

Magsorcs is the only class that has 0 build in debuffs and 0 built in buffs besides the standard that we all have.

Now, if a magblade that has: Minor maim+20%dmg increase combined with cheaperst and burst ulti ingame+insane heals from many sourses+slows+Teleport+Cloak+passively major ward/resolve+10 times better sustain from magsorc complains imagine what idiocy that can be.

MagBlade is a damage beast with many defensives+heals, the problem is its not a 3key class like stamblades are, threfore not everybody can play it. If you cant, go play stamblade.

[edited to remove quote]

Vahrokh

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

I am sorry the evil magsorc has killed you in PvP, but here are thousands of us who can't care the less about the whole ESO PvP fiasco and love to quest, challenge themselves with public dungeons and world bosses and so on.

They are DESTROYING our gameplay and when you destroy someone's reason to play, he... surprise... shall just stop playing.

I only and exclusively do 1 to 2 trials a week and then 4+ a day of questing, world bosses etc.

Do you believe I am going to pay ESO+ for 1 / 2 trials and that's it? No, because 4+ hours now are not filled by ESO any more, and I am pushed to find another MMO do to so.

I’m not saying the changes are well thought out, in saying shield stacking was obnoxious and had to go.

Whether they’ve adequately replaced it with an alternative means of survival is another matter.

They haven’t DESTROYED your gameplay though, you now just have to build more resistances into your build which means you’ll kill things a bit slower. You should still be able to tackle all the same challenges though. In solo-PvE more than any other form of gameplay you can adapt to changes.

There are several fights where with gimped DPS and regen you just don't make them. You slowly die and that's it.

Vahrokh

Anzriel wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.

You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

I am sorry the evil magsorc has killed you in PvP, but here are thousands of us who can't care the less about the whole ESO PvP fiasco and love to quest, challenge themselves with public dungeons and world bosses and so on.

They are DESTROYING our gameplay and when you destroy someone's reason to play, he... surprise... shall just stop playing.

I only and exclusively do 1 to 2 trials a week and then 4+ a day of questing, world bosses etc.

Do you believe I am going to pay ESO+ for 1 / 2 trials and that's it? No, because 4+ hours now are not filled by ESO any more, and I am pushed to find another MMO do to so.

Keep in mind shields also have resistance now, so in pve especially that should help quite a bit. They may be smaller, but they can also take more hits. That should at least help somewhat.

If I had the choice I'd 100% prefer today's shields than the empty promise of "lol high resist" shields after Nerfmire.

lucky_dutch

Vahrokh wrote: »

There are several fights where with gimped DPS and regen you just don't make them. You slowly die and that's it.

I don’t know to which fights you refer specifically but I’m gonna guess that they’re ones which are probably not meant to be solo’d and you’re only able to do so because of an over-performing build.

I’m sorry but a massive portion of the game (PvP) should not be denied necessary changes in order to accommodate niche requirements of a few people who are trying to solo content that isn’t designed to be solo’d. That just doesn’t make sense!

Magsorcs will still be able to do vMSA which is the benchmark for tough deliberately-designed solo content

Tonturri

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

It'd be cool if they changed one morph of Offering to be a strong HoT NBs could use on themselves. A VERY strong HoT, with a ticking DoT(health cost) bringing it

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

This post is riddled with personal bias. I’ve never met a Magblade in my whole time of playing that slots 2 shields, path and mutagen.

Magblades are also desperately short of bar space as one has to go on merciless and there are two more must-slots in cloak and shade. By the time you add your spammable and cc in there the bars are just as crowded as Magsorcs.

The shield nerf hits both classes equally hard but magblades also saw a nerf to multiple healing abilities, their execute and a huge nerf to their main burst ability.

[snip]

Saying the shield nerf hits both classes equally hard is as incorrect as saying sorcs are the only one suffering. Also, nightblade 'must slots' tend to be just..better than what others have - equating NBs bar space 'issues' to magsorc is just plain wrong. There's a difference between having multiple viable options and what magsorcs deal with.

[edited to remove quote]

lucky_dutch

Tonturri wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

It'd be cool if they changed one morph of Offering to be a strong HoT NBs could use on themselves. A VERY strong HoT, with a ticking DoT(health cost) bringing it

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

This post is riddled with personal bias. I’ve never met a Magblade in my whole time of playing that slots 2 shields, path and mutagen.

Magblades are also desperately short of bar space as one has to go on merciless and there are two more must-slots in cloak and shade. By the time you add your spammable and cc in there the bars are just as crowded as Magsorcs.

The shield nerf hits both classes equally hard but magblades also saw a nerf to multiple healing abilities, their execute and a huge nerf to their main burst ability.

[snip]

Saying the shield nerf hits both classes equally hard is as incorrect as saying sorcs are the only one suffering. Also, nightblade 'must slots' tend to be just..better than what others have - equating NBs bar space 'issues' to magsorc is just plain wrong. There's a difference between having multiple viable options and what magsorcs deal with.

I play sorc too, a lot actually. I don’t get what you’re talking about here though.

Magsorc have a fantsatsic burst rotation, a superb execute, one of only 2 instant gap creators in the game and a self-buff that most classes would kill for (surge).

Healing-wise, yes options are limited. Surge is akin to a hot in battle but (and this was where my original Magblade comparison came from), when forced onto the defensive, you have no on-demand self-heal and shield stacking was used as a crutch get around that.

I do think both are hurt equally here and I do think both deserve access to a on-demand heal in their class skills. Dark deal should be that for you and I do like your idea for offering. I’ve said the exact same thing myself many times. An instant self-heal that stacks a small dot on yourself creates an interesting gameplay dynamic. It gives you some breathing room but you know you’re more vulnerable for a short while after.

[edited to remove quote]

Tonturri

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

It'd be cool if they changed one morph of Offering to be a strong HoT NBs could use on themselves. A VERY strong HoT, with a ticking DoT(health cost) bringing it

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

@lucky_dutch yeah ok, shield stack had to go, but how are new changes supporting that “decision”? If you ask me - new changes encourage shieldstack, I doubt that magsorc will be playable in light armour with one shield...

Dark deal should have been made in to what we have suggested, not what ZoS thinks as they obviously have no idea.

I gotta admit, the dark deal change is a really headscratcher. That was the natural replacement for the 2nd shield but now they ruined that ability too.

Magsorc and Magblade are both in a similar place now. Nerfed shields, only healing options rely on doing damage so no use defensively, have mobility options but in both cases are a bit hit and miss.

They both need a quality, on-demand self-heal.

GOOD magblades run: LA heals+FunnelHoT+Mutagen+RephresingPathHot+Passively Major ward/resolve+Major Expedition.+100% Minor maim

Magblades have several HoT + the ability to use mutagen while magsorcs cannot afford to slot mutagen unless they are zergling negatebots.


Now my guess is magblades are going to be 100% stronger after murkmire since they have insane self heals, amazing enemy debuffs and passively insane goodie buffs.


On the other hand MagSorcs have to slot a usless skill to to everything in this game:

1 for resourses
2 shields for defence
1 shield for heals
Surge for *** heals and free 20% spellpower
boundless for major ward/resolve
Streak with cost increase to avoid melee gapclosing at bigger range with 0 cost increase

And on top of that Curse+Reach+frag+Fury


How many skill slots is that? h0 h0 h0

This post is riddled with personal bias. I’ve never met a Magblade in my whole time of playing that slots 2 shields, path and mutagen.

Magblades are also desperately short of bar space as one has to go on merciless and there are two more must-slots in cloak and shade. By the time you add your spammable and cc in there the bars are just as crowded as Magsorcs.

The shield nerf hits both classes equally hard but magblades also saw a nerf to multiple healing abilities, their execute and a huge nerf to their main burst ability.

[snip]

Saying the shield nerf hits both classes equally hard is as incorrect as saying sorcs are the only one suffering. Also, nightblade 'must slots' tend to be just..better than what others have - equating NBs bar space 'issues' to magsorc is just plain wrong. There's a difference between having multiple viable options and what magsorcs deal with.

I play sorc too, a lot actually. I don’t get what you’re talking about here though.

Magsorc have a fantsatsic burst rotation, a superb execute, one of only 2 instant gap creators in the game and a self-buff that most classes would kill for (surge).

Healing-wise, yes options are limited. Surge is akin to a hot in battle but (and this was where my original Magblade comparison came from), when forced onto the defensive, you have no on-demand self-heal and shield stacking was used as a crutch get around that.

I do think both are hurt equally here and I do think both deserve access to a on-demand heal in their class skills. Dark deal should be that for you and I do like your idea for offering. I’ve said the exact same thing myself many times. An instant self-heal that stacks a small dot on yourself creates an interesting gameplay dynamic. It gives you some breathing room but you know you’re more vulnerable for a short while after.

There's a reason you didn't see Surge except on a stam sorc or on the overload bar (which may be changing now that heavy is an option, we'll see - I intend to give it a go, but on the live version it's not everything it looks), especially considering many buffs can be attached to the important sustain that is spell power pots. The burst rotation is extremely predictable and a decent chunk will (should, depending on opponent), miss most of the time. Bolt Escape is murdered by stacking cost, no momentum, and the prevelance/relatively ease of use and cheapness of gap closers and speed buffs. Another thing we'll need to see how it plays out, but again, no live it's...really not all that. Everything you list is really only true when facing an inferior opponent.

Bit on the NB portion, but since this is a sorc thread didn't want to leave it out there. Read if you wish.

Whoops, I'm not sure how the bit about the HoT got in there (was writing about it, but found the idea incomplete so I thought I deleted it..apparently not - but the original idea was a heal the NB could use on themselves or an ally, with each cast putting a DoT on them that could be supressed by Cloak. That way, they could choose between a weaker hot and keeping up pressure, or cloaking and waiting to heal up a bit to get bigger benefit).

I don't agree with how you got to your conclusion, but I do agree with the end result. For sorcs, I know quite a few around have been complaining and brainstorming for Blood Magic, because the passive is worthless. A large number of sorc passives are useless, actually, and I'd gladly trade 'em for a powerful HoT. However, I have no ideas in that direction beyond something that'd be a copy of warden's vines (really nicely designed skill tho, what with healing up under shields but only if you hit the warden).

Maybe a reverse warden vines, if that's acceptable. Instead of blood magic applying the heal to you, it applies minor lifesteal, then another passive buffs the heal for you only. Hit someone with frags, get lifesteal on a target. Rewarded for being offensive, good for recovering a bit, adds some group utuility (something sorcs are sorely lacking), and can be easily adjusted.

Adjust it to be a health-based heal with a MINIMUM (so that dps can benefit and so can tanks without making either too strong), and we're going somewhere.

[edited to remove quote]

BalticBlues

lucky_dutch wrote: »

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.

The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden CAN wail on you non-stop for over a minute without running out of resources IS a little bit ridiculous.

katorga

There's a reason you didn't see Surge except on a stam sorc or on the overload bar

Surge is just not that great on class with single target DD. It is fantastic on a class that can layer in lots of fast ticking dots. That is why it is great on a stamsorc, and you see a lot of mag sorcs get major sorcery somewhere else.

IAVITNI

lucky_dutch wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Magsorcs just focused on stacking Mag & Mag recovery then slapped 2 shields on their bars and become unkillable.

Umm. That was never the case. I've been playing sorc since release, and every other class had no issues killing me, even well before the shield nerfs started. If sorcs were actually "unkillable", there would of been hundreds of youtube videos documenting the fact over the years.

For what its worth my most effective 1vx magsorc build stacked stam regen, for dodge rolling and used dark deal for stam regen. Shields go down in value the more opponents you have, while dodge goes up.

My Templar, on the other hand, can be build to be almost immortal, but it is more of a group/bg healer build.

You’ve deliberately only quoted part of my post there.

The other part explained that I was talking about shield stacking Magsorcs being unkillable vs a single aggressor. They can sustain almost indefinitely.

Vs multiple opponents, that obviously isn’t the case.

Any class is unkillable vs a single aggressor if they want to be. My magblade and magden have tougher effective shields on live than my magsorc and they don't need to stack them. High magpools and better buffs/debuffs. On top of that both can run 2 dps sets, whereas sorc needs 1 sustain set.

I duel in solo open world builds, and all my stam builds are currently in medium. I don't die if I don't want to on any class with the exception of Defile+DoT or 100% damage builds since medium relies on LoS to deal with that.

The transition from defence to offence is what makes any class vulnerable, and this is especially true for mag sorcs on live.

Harness is the only thing that makes shield stacking sustainable. Against a stam opponent, a magsorc needs to mind their resources in a duel, which is harder to do relative to any other class since they have the least effective passive resource sustain.

Correction** This was stated under the confusion that stamplars had PTS rune on live. Current PTS has made me leave the game. Funnily enough it was the mobility changes that did it. I was ok with a cast time (lost faith in devs but had a workaround) and agree with a health cap. Crittable shields is debatable since it is not properly balanced but that is a separate discussion. Only posting to point out that you don't fully understand the class, as the issues you identify are indeed PoP, however your analyses of them are incorrect

You are correct that forum reaction is currently over the top, however you significantly downplay the weaknesses of mag sorc. Shield stacking itself was not a problem and it has not been op sustainable 1v1 for a while.

Lazy balance attempts with Defile and inconsistencies with shield behaviour with (de)buffs has greatly skewed majority of players perceptions of the effectiveness of shields. Very few high end players complain about shield stacking on live, and those that do tend to not have played much lately.

Vahrokh

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

There are several fights where with gimped DPS and regen you just don't make them. You slowly die and that's it.

I don’t know to which fights you refer specifically but I’m gonna guess that they’re ones which are probably not meant to be solo’d and you’re only able to do so because of an over-performing build.

I’m sorry but a massive portion of the game (PvP) should not be denied necessary changes in order to accommodate niche requirements of a few people who are trying to solo content that isn’t designed to be solo’d. That just doesn’t make sense!

Magsorcs will still be able to do vMSA which is the benchmark for tough deliberately-designed solo content

Thank you for kindly allowing us to still be able to dare doing the content the other classes do!

PvP is not a massive portion of the game. [snip] Rightly so, because ESO is to PvP what a Hyundai city car is to a Ferrari.

All the others take ESO for what it is, a TES flavoured PvE game. [snip] So bad and in bad faith to underline 200 times one of the 2 PvE induced nerfs, over 4 years of hundreds of PvP induced nerfs.

[edited for baiting]

Feanor

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

There are several fights where with gimped DPS and regen you just don't make them. You slowly die and that's it.

I don’t know to which fights you refer specifically but I’m gonna guess that they’re ones which are probably not meant to be solo’d and you’re only able to do so because of an over-performing build.

I’m sorry but a massive portion of the game (PvP) should not be denied necessary changes in order to accommodate niche requirements of a few people who are trying to solo content that isn’t designed to be solo’d. That just doesn’t make sense!

Magsorcs will still be able to do vMSA which is the benchmark for tough deliberately-designed solo content

Thank you for kindly allowing us to still be able to dare doing the content the other classes do!

PvP is not a massive portion of the game. [snip] Rightly so, because ESO is to PvP what a Hyundai city car is to a Ferrari.

All the others take ESO for what it is, a TES flavoured PvE game. [snip] So bad and in bad faith to underline 200 times one of the 2 PvE induced nerfs, over 4 years of hundreds of PvP induced nerfs.

Even if that were true - it's not - 99% of PvE is an environment where you don't feel any nerfs at all, and the remaining 1% has issues of its own that are not connected to anything else in the game. Your dichotomy just is an easy scapegoat to blame.

[edited to remove quote]

Vahrokh

Feanor wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

There are several fights where with gimped DPS and regen you just don't make them. You slowly die and that's it.

I don’t know to which fights you refer specifically but I’m gonna guess that they’re ones which are probably not meant to be solo’d and you’re only able to do so because of an over-performing build.

I’m sorry but a massive portion of the game (PvP) should not be denied necessary changes in order to accommodate niche requirements of a few people who are trying to solo content that isn’t designed to be solo’d. That just doesn’t make sense!

Magsorcs will still be able to do vMSA which is the benchmark for tough deliberately-designed solo content

Thank you for kindly allowing us to still be able to dare doing the content the other classes do!

PvP is not a massive portion of the game. [snip] Rightly so, because ESO is to PvP what a Hyundai city car is to a Ferrari.

All the others take ESO for what it is, a TES flavoured PvE game. [snip] So bad and in bad faith to underline 200 times one of the 2 PvE induced nerfs, over 4 years of hundreds of PvP induced nerfs.

Even if that were true - it's not - 99% of PvE is an environment where you don't feel any nerfs at all, and the remaining 1% has issues of its own that are not connected to anything else in the game. Your dichotomy just is an easy scapegoat to blame.

Wait until in PvE you won't be able to do plenty of what you used to do for 4 years and then you'll see how you feel the nerfs.

[edited to remove quote]