The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
We will be performing maintenance for patch 10.0.2 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer
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Sygil05✭✭✭I don't expect ZOS to step in and explain what they're trying to do here, but it sure would be good customer service if they did so. By limiting their explanations to the dev comments in the patch notes, they leave the player base to interpret the changes as they wish.
For me, that means thinking that these changes represent the fact that they have no long term vision for the various classes and how they should be played. The dev team bounces from one skill to the next, tinkering as they go, with no larger understanding of how their changes will impact the system they're working in. When they hit a wall with one of their ad hoc skill changes, they just go back and adjust something else, that then has other unintended side-affects resulting in yet more changes that are not fully vetted or planned at the start.
Hopefully I'm wrong, though.13 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭I don't expect ZOS to step in and explain what they're trying to do here, but it sure would be good customer service if they did so. By limiting their explanations to the dev comments in the patch notes, they leave the player base to interpret the changes as they wish.
For me, that means thinking that these changes represent the fact that they have no long term vision for the various classes and how they should be played. The dev team bounces from one skill to the next, tinkering as they go, with no larger understanding of how their changes will impact the system they're working in. When they hit a wall with one of their ad hoc skill changes, they just go back and adjust something else, that then has other unintended side-affects resulting in yet more changes that are not fully vetted or planned at the start.
Hopefully I'm wrong, though.
I mean that's literally all I'm asking them to do, if you're proud of your work and understand your job you should be able to explain your decisions to your customers. This is like base level customer service, at this point there is no customer service, and honestly it seems like they are embarrassed / ashamed that they outed themselves as not knowing their own game and unwilling to admit it.
I just want them to explain that it isn't the case, they have things well in hand, they hear us and recognize they made some mistakes with Sorc for Murkmire, and then start actually putting in work to make things better. I'm considering sending a LinkedIn message with this forum thread to Rob. I'm a pretty disgruntled customer at this point and don't see any other solution.9 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.
If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.
What to do with a patient suffering from cancer?
Remove organs and amputate limbs where the cancer spreads to?
Or remove the cancer as the source of the problem?
problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it
Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.
I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.
BUT
I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.
Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.
Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.
@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.
I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).
Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.
NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.
Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.
Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality
... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.
It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.
It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.
Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.
I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.
And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?
I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.
Well You just said by Yourself then that You dont remember how combat was looking. You just remember what You've been using but not how stats and fights were like. Magicka/health ratio changed a lot btw , even DDs had more health then magicka and good trial DPS was around 1k which is like todays 10k so yeah we got buffed a little. There is lot of holes in Your memories from that times.
While I don't recall if I had NNNN.01 or NNNN.02 of this and that stat, I recall I had no sustain or survivability issue at all, in any content. We had some challenging content in the first months, but then ZOS nerfed it very hard. I recall myself soloing group content with no magicka shortage and with a Crystal Frags build (and before that, an Elemental Ring build), which nowadays is the quintessence of "the magicka sucks".
Well since You dont recall things excatly as they were it's not wise to make certain statements. You remember things were fine or even more then fine but You dont remember why and excatly when since I think You also slightly conntent memories from before and short after Tamriel Unlimited as one.
Edited by Juhasow on October 12, 2018 8:02PM1 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭
I'm running shackle+riposte+engine guardian now and can sustain just fine. Will trade riposte for fortibrass losing 120 recovery and 2k magicka. Big sustain and damage issues awaiting according to some forum guy who can't understand simpliest comments, lol.
I can OoM you in a duel in less than 2m with that build.
Now a staminator will OoM you in 45 sec probably in a duel but im 100% sure your zergserfing so, your gear is fine.5 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭I don't expect ZOS to step in and explain what they're trying to do here, but it sure would be good customer service if they did so. By limiting their explanations to the dev comments in the patch notes, they leave the player base to interpret the changes as they wish.
For me, that means thinking that these changes represent the fact that they have no long term vision for the various classes and how they should be played. The dev team bounces from one skill to the next, tinkering as they go, with no larger understanding of how their changes will impact the system they're working in. When they hit a wall with one of their ad hoc skill changes, they just go back and adjust something else, that then has other unintended side-affects resulting in yet more changes that are not fully vetted or planned at the start.
Hopefully I'm wrong, though.
I keep hearing the excuse that they nerfed shields to make healers more viable but that seems to be an excuse made up by the community. Lack of information breeds stress and distrust. Why should I spend hours relearning my sorc after putting hundreds of hours in to get her to where she is if ZOS is then just going to gut that play style again in the future.
As I've said before, I am ok with small incremental changes as they keep things interesting but this heavy handed approach is getting tiresome.
I can only assume that they want to drive away long term paying veteran customers so they can hook in new fresh players they can fleece with their horrible crates.
Unfortunately I am starting to feel like ESO is going to be the game that ruiins the TES franchise for a lot of people.I've hidden your signature.13 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Um, have you tried playing mag sorc in pvp? I did with my pet sorc and it was okay, even without any changing in the attributes/enchantments/traits/playstyle. Can't speak for PVE, but ZOS did listen to the feedback.
We went from dreadful cast shields -> 40% hp shields -> 50% hp shields with additional 20% for pets. AND we have pets immune to damage in arenas, dungeons and trials and one vMA boss.
It is much better and it is viable in PVP. As far as I'm concerned, I have no more complaints. Sorry to disappoint naysayers.0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭Um, have you tried playing mag sorc in pvp? I did with my pet sorc and it was okay, even without any changing in the attributes/enchantments/traits/playstyle. Can't speak for PVE, but ZOS did listen to the feedback.
We went from dreadful cast shields -> 40% hp shields -> 50% hp shields with additional 20% for pets. AND we have pets immune to damage in arenas, dungeons and trials and one vMA boss.
It is much better and it is viable in PVP. As far as I'm concerned, I have no more complaints. Sorry to disappoint naysayers.
I have one correction to make to your post. The pets aren't getting a bonus beyond the 50%. The 20% increase is from 40% to 50%.
It's like if you had a 20k health pool, and used hardened ward on PTS before this week, you got a 40% of health 8k shield. If you use it this week, it's a 10k shield. Over the 40% shield, it's a 20% increase, but it's still only 50% of your max health in shields to both you and your pet. Not 50% to you and 60% to the pet.4 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.
If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.
What to do with a patient suffering from cancer?
Remove organs and amputate limbs where the cancer spreads to?
Or remove the cancer as the source of the problem?
problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it
Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.
I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.
BUT
I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.
Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.
Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.
@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.
I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).
Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.
NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.
Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.
Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality
... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.
It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.
It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.
Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.
I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.
And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?
I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.
Well You just said by Yourself then that You dont remember how combat was looking. You just remember what You've been using but not how stats and fights were like. Magicka/health ratio changed a lot btw , even DDs had more health then magicka and good trial DPS was around 1k which is like todays 10k so yeah we got buffed a little. There is lot of holes in Your memories from that times.
While I don't recall if I had NNNN.01 or NNNN.02 of this and that stat, I recall I had no sustain or survivability issue at all, in any content. We had some challenging content in the first months, but then ZOS nerfed it very hard. I recall myself soloing group content with no magicka shortage and with a Crystal Frags build (and before that, an Elemental Ring build), which nowadays is the quintessence of "the magicka sucks".
Well since You dont recall things excatly as they were it's not wise to make certain statements. You remember things were fine or even more then fine but You dont remember why and excatly when since I think You also slightly conntent memories from before and short after Tamriel Unlimited as one.
I don't have Alzheimer. I am able to recall if gameplay was good and natural or sucked like it's doing since regen nerf. Of course we weren't godlike, but we were plenty playable. Way more than now.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭nvm, you're correct, hardened ward gives 20% increase over other morphs.
Edited by maboleth on October 13, 2018 1:01AM0 -
arasysb14_ESO✭✭✭✭After 60+ pages long feedback from this PTS cycle it all boils down to this:
ZOS launches new content, game takes one step forward but ends up taking two steps back with continuous cycle of nerfs..
Arasys Llanor, CP 800+ Magicka Sorcerer NA
Please do not use the same Fallout 76 engine for TES VI5 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭Don't take my word for it. Have some actual, honest-to-goodness proof taken from the PTS just now (shield numbers courtesy of Foundry Tactical Combat (FTC):
As a bonus, here's the build I was using to get to those values, just in case you want to replicate my results (courtesy of Overview):
The only things that aren't on there are the passives (of which I took all the ones in my 3 class lines, destro staff, light armor, mage's guild, and undaunted, and the top 3 in both medium armor and heavy armor. Of those, the only one that has a major effect is the Magicka Controller passive which gives 2% bonus max mag for having Inner Light (or any mages guild ability) on my bar. Note that this is the toon I've been using to try to pin down where hardened ward works and doesn't, so if there are some gear choices that might make you scratch your head (like not using any rings, or training on the shoulders), don't worry about it. It's not meant to run into Cyrodiil or vMA. It's meant to be a testing platform for one or two specific things.
As to the rest of your previously quoted post, I hope you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical of your assessment of magsorc in PvP. You use things like "it's okay" or "it's better" without providing concrete evidence or a baseline. What is "okay"? How do you define "viable"? Is it only capable of killing CP300s in a zerg, if that? Where are you testing it? Battleground? Cyrodiil? If in battlegrounds, which ones? What was your KDA? Better than what? Than live? Than what we had with the cast time? I mean, it's definitely better than the cast time, but that doesn't inherently make it "good" or "viable" or even "decent."
The truth is that, outside of pets being invulnerable in trials, dungeons, and group arenas (making them not need to be summoned as often in those areas if you don't die), I've seen no changes this patch that address pain points that have repeatedly been brought up regarding playing as a magsorc. Bar bloat remains a serious issue, and has been worsened by the loss of the third bar. Sustain on a light attack rotation is still nightmarish, and, if their attempts to address it were the new Overload and Dark Conversion (which still has a 1.2 second cast time, and now gives 60% of the resources up front and 40% over the next 20 seconds), then they remain inadequate, particularly in PvE. Beyond that, in the same PTS cycle, they've made Frags more responsive and then added a minimum travel time which makes it clunky to use again. They nerfed Rune Cage again. They nerfed Boundless Storm in an effort to further uniformity by nerfing a skill that wasn't overpowered or being used by everyone, after a change to shields which, if magsorcs had space on their bars, might have made it more desirable. What is worse, while the patch notes may say that the Major Expedition on that skill lasts "a maximum of 4 seconds" (which I would argue and have argued is too low for a speed-increasing effect- it's just not fun), the actual tooltip value I'm looking at on the PTS right now on Health to Mag Test is, in fact, 2.5 seconds (a full 5 second reduction from my build on live). At that point, that part of the skill has been rendered almost irrelevant. Once the one second GCD for casting it is finished, you have one and a half seconds (lag permitting) to do something with your Major Expedition, before the speed boost once again disappears into the aether. (One elephant two el--- Ohp. You're slow again.) And with all of these alterations and nerfs, they've kept the skill costs roughly the same, meaning that, with the possible exception of Dark Conversion, we are spending just as much, if not more, of a magicka bar that is going to be getting smaller as magsorcs have to build into some more health in order to increase what would be an under-10k hardened ward in most PvE builds, or invest further into resistances through sets and sacrifice more sustain in PvP, and receiving (again with the exception of dark conversion) less for that cost.
"But the pets and daedric prey got a cost decrease!" Yes. Yes, they did. But most pet builds are based around heavy attacks and have very few, if any, issues with sustain on Live anyway. So I'm not sure that counts as "addressing sustain."
Beyond that, we are a week and two days from Murkmire and all of these changes going live and have yet to go a single week without at least one morph of Conjured Ward being broken so that we could test how they perform. And Hardened Ward is still bugged and not providing a shield if you're over a specific max magicka value, which is relatively easy to reach as a petsorc.
So while you may have no complaints, there are still plenty to be had, and your assessment doesn't alleviate any of them, much less disappoint any who might be naysayers.Edited by BrightOblivion on October 13, 2018 2:59AM22 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »Don't take my word for it. Have some actual, honest-to-goodness proof taken from the PTS just now (shield numbers courtesy of Foundry Tactical Combat (FTC):
As a bonus, here's the build I was using to get to those values, just in case you want to replicate my results (courtesy of Overview):
The only things that aren't on there are the passives (of which I took all the ones in my 3 class lines, destro staff, light armor, mage's guild, and undaunted, and the top 3 in both medium armor and heavy armor. Of those, the only one that has a major effect is the Magicka Controller passive which gives 2% bonus max mag for having Inner Light (or any mages guild ability) on my bar. Note that this is the toon I've been using to try to pin down where hardened ward works and doesn't, so if there are some gear choices that might make you scratch your head (like not using any rings, or training on the shoulders), don't worry about it. It's not meant to run into Cyrodiil or vMA. It's meant to be a testing platform for one or two specific things.
As to the rest of your previously quoted post, I hope you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical of your assessment of magsorc in PvP. You use things like "it's okay" or "it's better" without providing concrete evidence or a baseline. What is "okay"? How do you define "viable"? Is it only capable of killing CP300s in a zerg, if that? Where are you testing it? Battleground? Cyrodiil? If in battlegrounds, which ones? What was your KDA? Better than what? Than live? Than what we had with the cast time? I mean, it's definitely better than the cast time, but that doesn't inherently make it "good" or "viable" or even "decent."
The truth is that, outside of pets being invulnerable in trials, dungeons, and group arenas (making them not need to be summoned as often in those areas if you don't die), I've seen no changes this patch that address pain points that have repeatedly been brought up regarding playing as a magsorc. Bar bloat remains a serious issue, and has been worsened by the loss of the third bar. Sustain on a light attack rotation is still nightmarish, and, if their attempts to address it were the new Overload and Dark Conversion (which still has a 1.2 second cast time, and now gives 60% of the resources up front and 40% over the next 20 seconds), then they remain inadequate, particularly in PvE. Beyond that, in the same PTS cycle, they've made Frags more responsive and then added a minimum travel time which makes it clunky to use again. They nerfed Rune Cage again. They nerfed Boundless Storm in an effort to further uniformity by nerfing a skill that wasn't overpowered or being used by everyone, after a change to shields which, if magsorcs had space on their bars, might have made it more desirable. What is worse, while the patch notes may say that the Major Expedition on that skill lasts "a maximum of 4 seconds" (which I would argue and have argued is too low for a speed-increasing effect- it's just not fun), the actual tooltip value I'm looking at on the PTS right now on Health to Mag Test is, in fact, 2.5 seconds (a full 5 second reduction from my build on live). At that point, that part of the skill has been rendered almost irrelevant. Once the one second GCD for casting it is finished, you have one second (lag permitting) to do something with your Major Expedition, before the speed boost once again disappears into the aether. And with all of these alterations and nerfs, they've kept the skill costs roughly the same, meaning that, with the possible exception of Dark Conversion, we are spending just as much, if not more, of a magicka bar that is going to be getting smaller as magsorcs have to build into some more health in order to increase what would be an under-10k hardened ward in most PvE builds, or invest further into resistances through sets and sacrifice more sustain in PvP, and receiving (again with the exception of dark conversion) less for that cost.
"But the pets and daedric prey got a cost decrease!" Yes. Yes, they did. But most pet builds are based around heavy attacks and have very few, if any, issues with sustain on Live anyway. So I'm not sure that counts as "addressing sustain."
Beyond that, we are a week and two days from Murkmire and all of these changes going live and have yet to go a single week without at least one morph of Conjured Ward being broken so that we could test how they perform. And Hardened Ward is still bugged and not providing a shield if you're over a specific max magicka value, which is relatively easy to reach as a petsorc.
So while you may have no complaints, there are still plenty to be, and your assessment doesn't alleviate any of them, much less disappoint any who might be naysayers.
Brilliant comment. I've attempted to test the shield changes on test but as you have pointed out my hardened ward build is broken on my pet sorc.I've hidden your signature.1 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »Don't take my word for it. Have some actual, honest-to-goodness proof taken from the PTS just now (shield numbers courtesy of Foundry Tactical Combat (FTC):
As a bonus, here's the build I was using to get to those values, just in case you want to replicate my results (courtesy of Overview):
The only things that aren't on there are the passives (of which I took all the ones in my 3 class lines, destro staff, light armor, mage's guild, and undaunted, and the top 3 in both medium armor and heavy armor. Of those, the only one that has a major effect is the Magicka Controller passive which gives 2% bonus max mag for having Inner Light (or any mages guild ability) on my bar. Note that this is the toon I've been using to try to pin down where hardened ward works and doesn't, so if there are some gear choices that might make you scratch your head (like not using any rings, or training on the shoulders), don't worry about it. It's not meant to run into Cyrodiil or vMA. It's meant to be a testing platform for one or two specific things.
As to the rest of your previously quoted post, I hope you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical of your assessment of magsorc in PvP. You use things like "it's okay" or "it's better" without providing concrete evidence or a baseline. What is "okay"? How do you define "viable"? Is it only capable of killing CP300s in a zerg, if that? Where are you testing it? Battleground? Cyrodiil? If in battlegrounds, which ones? What was your KDA? Better than what? Than live? Than what we had with the cast time? I mean, it's definitely better than the cast time, but that doesn't inherently make it "good" or "viable" or even "decent."
The truth is that, outside of pets being invulnerable in trials, dungeons, and group arenas (making them not need to be summoned as often in those areas if you don't die), I've seen no changes this patch that address pain points that have repeatedly been brought up regarding playing as a magsorc. Bar bloat remains a serious issue, and has been worsened by the loss of the third bar. Sustain on a light attack rotation is still nightmarish, and, if their attempts to address it were the new Overload and Dark Conversion (which still has a 1.2 second cast time, and now gives 60% of the resources up front and 40% over the next 20 seconds), then they remain inadequate, particularly in PvE. Beyond that, in the same PTS cycle, they've made Frags more responsive and then added a minimum travel time which makes it clunky to use again. They nerfed Rune Cage again. They nerfed Boundless Storm in an effort to further uniformity by nerfing a skill that wasn't overpowered or being used by everyone, after a change to shields which, if magsorcs had space on their bars, might have made it more desirable. What is worse, while the patch notes may say that the Major Expedition on that skill lasts "a maximum of 4 seconds" (which I would argue and have argued is too low for a speed-increasing effect- it's just not fun), the actual tooltip value I'm looking at on the PTS right now on Health to Mag Test is, in fact, 2.5 seconds (a full 5 second reduction from my build on live). At that point, that part of the skill has been rendered almost irrelevant. Once the one second GCD for casting it is finished, you have one second (lag permitting) to do something with your Major Expedition, before the speed boost once again disappears into the aether. And with all of these alterations and nerfs, they've kept the skill costs roughly the same, meaning that, with the possible exception of Dark Conversion, we are spending just as much, if not more, of a magicka bar that is going to be getting smaller as magsorcs have to build into some more health in order to increase what would be an under-10k hardened ward in most PvE builds, or invest further into resistances through sets and sacrifice more sustain in PvP, and receiving (again with the exception of dark conversion) less for that cost.
"But the pets and daedric prey got a cost decrease!" Yes. Yes, they did. But most pet builds are based around heavy attacks and have very few, if any, issues with sustain on Live anyway. So I'm not sure that counts as "addressing sustain."
Beyond that, we are a week and two days from Murkmire and all of these changes going live and have yet to go a single week without at least one morph of Conjured Ward being broken so that we could test how they perform. And Hardened Ward is still bugged and not providing a shield if you're over a specific max magicka value, which is relatively easy to reach as a petsorc.
So while you may have no complaints, there are still plenty to be, and your assessment doesn't alleviate any of them, much less disappoint any who might be naysayers.
Brilliant comment. I've attempted to test the shield changes on test but as you have pointed out my hardened ward build is broken on my pet sorc.
Yep. That toon in the screenshots is the one I used to try to pinpoint where Hardened Ward breaks (hence the weird build decisions). But even if they manage to fix it on Monday, that leaves us with one week- ONE - to do any tests to verify whether it's sufficient before the current state of imbalance is locked in place for at least the next month and a half (if considering when the next PTS cycle will likely start), or three months (if considering live release to live release).
Of the five PTS cycles I've born witness to (I came to the game just before Morrowind went Live), this one absolutely frustrates me the most. It's not even a contest.Edited by BrightOblivion on October 13, 2018 3:00AM1 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »Yep. That toon in the screenshots is the one I used to try to pinpoint where Hardened Ward breaks (hence the weird build decisions). But even if they manage to fix it on Monday, that leaves us with one week- ONE - to do any tests to verify whether it's sufficient before the current state of imbalance is locked in place for at least the next month and a half (if considering when the next PTS cycle will likely start), or three months (if considering live release to live release).
Of the five PTS cycles I've born witness to (I came to the game just before Morrowind went Live), this one absolutely frustrates me the most. It's not even a contest.
I think this is my fourth or maybe fifth PTS cycle and it is the worst I have seen so far and like you the one that has frustrated and worried me the most. I tried both empowered ward and harness magicka as drop in replacements for hardened and neither were particularly effective for my play style in vMA. Very few people in my guilds are on the PTS so I couldn't test any dungeons or trials but I think my survivability, sustain and dps issues in vMA were indicative of the issues a lot of people are going to face. Not an elite level player but have sunk a lot of hours (and dollars) in to this game.I've hidden your signature.8 -
Heymexa✭✭✭PVE
New Overload is a worthless ability. Small damage, long animation.
Sustain - absent. We have been asking for Sustain for a long time, but we are being offered Overload
Survival. In the best builds for DPS - survival rate is weak. Weaker than other classes.
PVP
Crystal Fragments - it's easier to wait for the train, than to wait until the fragment hits the target.
Shields - oooopsssss
________________________________________________________________
Eventually:
New patch - new nerf. Nerfs, nerfs, nerfs, nerfs. 4.2.x - Fatality.
Developers hate this class. Do not play for this class. The best destination is Master Crafter.
Thank you, ZOS.
Edited by Heymexa on October 13, 2018 12:57PM9 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭PVE
New Overload is a worthless ability. Small damage, long animation.
Sustain - absent. We have been asking for Sustain for a long time, but we are being offered Overload
Survival. In the best builds for DPS - survival rate is weak. Weaker than other classes.
PVP
Crystal Fragments - it's easier to wait for the train, than to wait until the fragment hits the target.
Shields - oooopsssss
________________________________________________________________
Eventually:
New patch - new nerf. Nerfs, nerfs, nerfs, nerfs. 4.2.x - Fatality.
Developers hate this class. Do not play for this class. The best destination is Master Crafter.
Thank you, ZOS.
But hey, heavy armor DBoS wardentunks are balanced.
Shield needed a nerf since they could burst it in 1.5 sec.
The new CF travels as slow as a light armor player walking, im not sure who will get this attack after. Guess they brought back the 10% dmg the nurfd to make it travel as a snail and nerf if EVEN MORE.5 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭@Tasear @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett
What I expect from next PTS Patch (4.2.4 or 4.2.5)!
Light Armor > Annulment > Dampen Magic:- This morph now also increases the shield cap to 50% of your Max Health, previously 40%.
- This morph now also increases the shield cap by 2% of your Max Health for each piece of light armor worn, previously 40%.
Champion Points > Bastion:- Increases the effectiveness of damage absorbing effects by [0-25]%. (This effect is useless now)
- Reduces damage taken while using a damage shield ability by [0-25]%.
Sorcerer > Daedric Summoning > Daedric Protection (Passive):- Increases your Health Recovery, Stamina Recovery and Magicka Recovery by X% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Done!2 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭joaaocaampos wrote: »@Tasear @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett
What I expect from next PTS Patch (4.2.4 or 4.2.5)!
Light Armor > Annulment > Dampen Magic:- This morph now also increases the shield cap to 50% of your Max Health, previously 40%.
- This morph now also increases the shield cap by 2% of your Max Health for each piece of light armor worn, previously 40%.
Champion Points > Bastion:- Increases the effectiveness of damage absorbing effects by [0-25]%. (This effect is useless now)
- Reduces damage taken while using a damage shield ability by [0-25]%.
Sorcerer > Daedric Summoning > Daedric Protection (Passive):- Increases your Health Recovery, Stamina Recovery and Magicka Recovery by X% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Done!
Still really doesn't help non-cp shield on live already are underpowered on non-cp. They need a buff not a nerf.
0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »@Tasear @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett
What I expect from next PTS Patch (4.2.4 or 4.2.5)!
Light Armor > Annulment > Dampen Magic:- This morph now also increases the shield cap to 50% of your Max Health, previously 40%.
- This morph now also increases the shield cap by 2% of your Max Health for each piece of light armor worn, previously 40%.
Champion Points > Bastion:- Increases the effectiveness of damage absorbing effects by [0-25]%. (This effect is useless now)
- Reduces damage taken while using a damage shield ability by [0-25]%.
Sorcerer > Daedric Summoning > Daedric Protection (Passive):- Increases your Health Recovery, Stamina Recovery and Magicka Recovery by X% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Done!
Yep, this such an obvious fix for Bastion, should be a no-brainer for ZOS... meaning it will be 3 or 4 patches before they get around to it
#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I've been very saddened to see a most helpful and optimistic person get so stressed about the magsorc nerfs to make the video below.
This person created famous vMA builds for new players, tutorials.
Spent his time in game to teach me tricks about how to do high DPS.
He was able to solo some stuff nobody else could.
And now it's R.I.P. sorc for him, too.
This was the final blow, this game for me now is not worth my money any longer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9coaOekME Edited by Vahrokh on October 14, 2018 1:39AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO8 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭I've been very saddened to see a most helful and optimistic person get so stressed about the magsorc nerfs to make the video below.
This person created famous vMA builds for new players, tutorials.
Spent his time in game to teach me tricks about how to do high DPS.
He was able to solo some stuff nobody else could.
And now it's R.I.P. sorc for him, too.
This was the final blow, this game for me now is not worth my money any longer.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9coaOekME
You think that ZoS cares?
Open crown store, they sell warden class there.
They made millions selling wardens, they wont care about sorcs trust me.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »@Tasear @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett
What I expect from next PTS Patch (4.2.4 or 4.2.5)!
Light Armor > Annulment > Dampen Magic:- This morph now also increases the shield cap to 50% of your Max Health, previously 40%.
- This morph now also increases the shield cap by 2% of your Max Health for each piece of light armor worn, previously 40%.
Champion Points > Bastion:- Increases the effectiveness of damage absorbing effects by [0-25]%. (This effect is useless now)
- Reduces damage taken while using a damage shield ability by [0-25]%.
Sorcerer > Daedric Summoning > Daedric Protection (Passive):- Increases your Health Recovery, Stamina Recovery and Magicka Recovery by X% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Done!
Passed info along4 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I feel exactly the same way.This was the final blow, this game for me now is not worth my money any longer.
After investing years and a lot of money into this game,
the devs decide to cripple my favorite class, removing the 3rd bar,
the devs decide to cripple Light Armor, removing useful shields,
the devs decide that my money is not welcome anymore.
10 -
firedrgn✭✭✭✭✭I don't mind new ideas and dont need buffs every patch, but come on.
Dark deal change is a nerff and already was penalized with a cast time and resource managment. If your trading stam for magic and you need magic your crippled from recasting. So basicly the stam cost went theu the roof. Mag sorc already have a recovery issues.
Really if they would just shorten heavy casts on destro a little bit recovery woykd go up and dps.
People that used shields well i think the majority will quit or move to a different class. Speaki g for my self thats one reason i chose magsorc.
And can we get a magic bow already?
1 -
Anzriel✭✭✭✭I have to admit I'm a little disappointed in the changes for sorc overall. Magicka sustain is still pretty poor in pve, dark deal has a cast time with no payoff equal to the cast time, damage is still just "okay" in pve, and generally I don't feel any of the, "pain points" as ZoS seems to call them, have been addressed. I don't buy into the doom and gloom, nor do I think they'll be unplayable, or even honestly BAD, but why would you play a magsorc when there will be other classes that do just about everything else, better? Sorc should still have solid burst in pvp, heavy armor should help with survivability, but I kind of feel that's the only place they really shine. I don't want to come off as a whiner, but it looks like, at least for the time being if things stay as is my sorc will simply be placed on the shelf. I don't really feel like magsorc or stamsorc feel either particularly efficient or fun to play right now.Edited by Anzriel on October 14, 2018 8:58AM6 -
Thraben✭✭✭✭✭Dear Devs,
we are running out of time.
Leave one Overload Morph with a third bar, or rework the Pets along the lines of the NB´shade.
Or, at the very least, acknowledge that there is a problem here.Edited by Thraben on October 14, 2018 9:31AMHauptmann der Dolche des Königs
DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.
DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.3 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't mind new ideas and dont need buffs every patch, but come on.
Dark deal change is a nerff and already was penalized with a cast time and resource managment. If your trading stam for magic and you need magic your crippled from recasting. So basicly the stam cost went theu the roof. Mag sorc already have a recovery issues.
Really if they would just shorten heavy casts on destro a little bit recovery woykd go up and dps.
People that used shields well i think the majority will quit or move to a different class. Speaki g for my self thats one reason i chose magsorc.
And can we get a magic bow already?
I don't think it's a nerf. I'm looking forward to casting it less often(given the god-awfil cast time and delay) having a lingering effect that can give resources while blocking, and also costs less than before..Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
lucky_dutch✭✭✭✭Magsorc are absolutely fine on PTS now. Arguably stronger with the improved LA passives.
You can’t face-tank unlimited amounts of damage anymore but forgive me for my limited sympathy on that front.
The fact that a glass cannon Stamblade or Stamden could wail on you non-stop for over a minute without breaking through the shields was a little bit ridiculous.2
https://youtu.be/24n9fYPHkfI