PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Feanor · October 2018

Subhuman wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Subhuman wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

DCanadianBacon wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

I have ~21k of max health with blue food (max health/max magicka), pet and structured entropy slotted.

And I'm an Imperial magsorc (12% max health passive).

This [snip] shield is going to cost 1s to be conjured, weaker (9~10k hp shield, huge drop), and it can be critted.

While I spend the whole fight trying to break free from nightblade stuns and running around trying to figure out where the heck he went.

And there's Dark Exchange, 1s cast time, and then 20s to get the rest of the resources hahah

What a joke.

We don't have any defensive chit anymore

overload nerf that now deals [snip] dmg as well

at least remove cast time of dark exchange and shields, awfully disgusting gameplay.

Someone is a little behind on the times......

Shields don't have a cast time anymore, they haven't for almost 2 weeks now.

Dark Exchange rework is more of a buff now imo. 3.6k Mag up front, and an effective 240 more regen that actually ticks for 120 per second, so all your skills will effectively cost 120 less mag for 20 seconds, and you get a free 120 regen between global cooldowns.

Overload rework is good except for the loss of the 3rd bar (that I will admit was a kick in the pants).

But cheesy Overload gank builds needed to die anyways. But don't worry, Overload on mag sorcs with be alive and well, as you can now regen magicka with FREAKING LIGHT ATTACK WEAVES, and you'll still be able to drop an Ice Comet on someone's head once you drop down to 170 ultimate.

While over here on my beloved Stam Sorc I'm forced to run the Heavy Armor meta and completely lost all viable usability from Overload, while every stam class I face is going to be taking 25% less damage from Hurricane, Cleave, Spin-to-Win, and Dawnbreaker.

Oh well, I guess I'll take the Dark Deal buff. Cheaper mag cost and stam recovery that works through sprint and block, which is a small consolation that I can stay optimistic about.

Edit: "While I spend the whole fight trying to break free from nightblade stuns and running around trying to figure out where the heck he went." Okay, you've got a point there. I least I can still Spin-to-Win and Hurricane to keep them out of stealth.

We always had that morph for overload, it's called "Energy Overload", restoring magicka from LA is the default mechanic now?

At least they removed the cast time, but it's still is a big nerf to shields, from ~18k to ~9k and crits

Key word there is weave. The morph is the same but you can weave it with skills now just like a regular light attack.

I've tested it in PTS and its nowhere near smooth as a LA. Certainly not worth removing the 3rd bar for

I don't disagree with either of those things just pointing out to the guy the new functionality

Weaving OL would be awesome if the projectile wasn’t still so agonizingly slow and easy to dodge.

[edited to remove quote]

Vahrokh · October 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

[edited to remove quote]

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

Magsorc healing is by far the most pathetic in game atm.
I can say it was correct on being this way because of the shield(lol) and the armor shield magsorcs can use.

While magsorc heal to exit execute range is WARD WARD WARD WARD atm, we REMOVED ward initial heal to even more destroy sorcs.

If sorcs dont get a decent healing passively and not by slotting useless skills to heal things are horribly balanced.

MagDK's heal from: Scratch+Blood+Ulti+mutagen+lightattacks(degeneration) (most decent builds)

MagBlades heal from: Funnel+Lightattacks+refreshingPatch+mutagen(most decent nonGank builds)

Magplars heal from: BoL/HtD+Ritual+lightattacks(degeneration) (most decent builds)

MagWardens Heal from: Mushrooms+Seed+Vines+Lotus+Natures grasp (depending build + group)

MagSorc Heal from: When a frag procs and NOT dodged...+ Surge IF slotted. (assuming people are not blind to let you cast NERFED Dark Conversion)

The current state of magsorc cant utilize many skills it needs in ability bars since all goodies most classes get passively by slotting a skill magsorc has to actually slot a useless skill to gain access to..

Blood magic heal needs to be transferred in Daedric skill line so when a sorc deals damage with his curse will get a decent heal.

Major Ward and Major resolve needs to be put somewhere else and be used passively as other classes gain access to it without having to slot useless skills.

With the current state of cyrodiil, Elder Tanks Online sorcs DESPERATELY need major breach without having to slot ANOTHER useless skill to do so.

Streak cost increase needs to definitely be removed OR any gap closer in game get the same treatment.

Finally, the only class that desperately need a sustain help is magsorc. Not stamscorc, stamsorcs do FINE as they are in pve + pvp.

Feanor · October 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

I remember running 4x Martial Knowledge (with a VR 13 Hand piece at first) and 5x Warlock back then. Good ol times.

[edited to remove quote]

Zer0oo · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

I remember running 4x Martial Knowledge (with a VR 13 Hand piece at first) and 5x Warlock back then. Good ol times.

good old times

Sorcs could streak and were mobile(not snared to dead or stuck in air or snared by gap closing )
Sorc had some nice melee combos: dawnbreaker+proxi (really punishing against stacked players)
Sorc had sustain
Sorc could run dw
Sorc did not need endless fury to kill something
Sorc mines were dangerous
Sorc did not have to farm vDSA for a staff to have a cc since frags did cc
Sorc had a burst ulti with dawnbreaker that does not warn your enemy
Sorcs did not have to spam shields every 4 sec out of combat just so a ganker could not instant kill them (It is really tired some to just stand there spamming shields because you know that the nb will just destroy you the moment you did not spam it)

[edited to remove quote]

Karmanorway · October 2018

If sorcs should get 1 sec cast time on shield, then i want NBs to have a 1 sec delay on roll Dodge.. 😏

deLioncourt · October 2018

If shields are being reduced to 50% max health, but scales with magicka, and are now crittable, and take into account resistances that basically don't exist, then I propose a change.

Every time someone casts a shield, that cast should full up their ultimate bar completely, and it should also renew everyone's subscription for a full year.

Per cast.

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

I remember running 4x Martial Knowledge (with a VR 13 Hand piece at first) and 5x Warlock back then. Good ol times.

good old times
Sorcs could streak and were mobile(not snared to dead or stuck in air or snared by gap closing )

Sorc had some nice melee combos: dawnbreaker+proxi (really punishing against stacked players)

Sorc had sustain

Sorc could run dw

Sorc did not need endless fury to kill something

Sorc mines were dangerous

Sorc did not have to farm vDSA for a staff to have a cc since frags did cc

Sorc had a burst ulti with dawnbreaker that does not warn your enemy

Sorcs did not have to spam shields every 4 sec out of combat just so a ganker could not instant kill them (It is really tired some to just stand there spamming shields because you know that the nb will just destroy you the moment you did not spam it)

But hey, when you chase around rocks a stamblade to kill it for 5 min and use like 5 pots its not balanced because the nb died.

When you get 1shotted from a nightblade though because you really forgot for just 1 sec to have a shield on ITS OK

[edited to remove quote]

Lokov · October 2018

The problem is that developers do not play their own game

Look at non CP PvP (BG's or Cyro) there is no problems with SORC's shields

The hint is clear? I hope

MalagenR · October 2018

If you play a Sorc on live - it's fairly obvious we have nothing to offer vs. stamblades / nightblades - it's so pathetic - as soon as your shield drops you will get 1 shot by 15k ultimates.

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

Lokov wrote: »

The problem is that developers do not play their own game
Look at non CP PvP (BG's or Cyro) there is no problems with SORC's shields
The hint is clear? I hope

No, there we have a fury problem that steals ppl's kills.

We always have a magsorc problem bro, since 2014 after DK was burried to the ground THIS game has magsorc problems.

Hint, nobody has L2P problems.

maxlacab16_ESO · October 2018

The changes in the upcoming patch to the play-ability of the game are disastrous, short sighted, knee-jerk NERFS that remind me of grade school conflict management. It is a shame, how ZOS is catering to those players who can't play the game and whine about those who do. There is no build that is exclusive to anyone. Everyone can utilize the so-called "over powered" builds, everyone can tweak their toons with the same gear, abilities and stats, and be just as fast, just as tanky, just as dodgy as the next player! They should stop whining and learn to play the game...instead of ZOS caving in and NERFING the fun for the rest of the players! It is a real shame.

Because the money we pay remains the bottom line of ZOS's interest, and I see no intention on ZOS's part to make sensible improvements to the game, that increase the fun of playing it, while they are in fact decreasing it, I vote against the upcoming changes and cancel my subscription (money to ZOS). I would encourage everyone else, who feels this way, to do the same. Let ZOS feel your disappointment.

I will be happy to re-sub, once ZOS wakes up to the damaging effects that their short sighted knee-jerk NERFS have, and return to an enjoyable game-play philosophy. Until then…

Benemime · October 2018

Bound Aegis (active) is still useless. Awful utility for magsorcs that no one ever care to press the button, it's only there because of the passive buffs.

Bergzorn · October 2018

So, I never really tried heavy armor on my magsorc before because of the totally absent synergies. My plan for Murkmire was to stay with 5-1-1 light, but I decided to at least try a 5-1-1 heavy build. About an hour ago, I decided to give it a spin on the no-CP live server.

I was surprised. I mean, I won't kill any decent player (not too different from now), but O BOI there will be nerf sorc threads after Murkmire!

ku5h · October 2018

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Lokov wrote: »

The problem is that developers do not play their own game
Look at non CP PvP (BG's or Cyro) there is no problems with SORC's shields
The hint is clear? I hope

No, there we have a fury problem that steals ppl's kills.

We always have a magsorc problem bro, since 2014 after DK was burried to the ground THIS game has magsorc problems.

Hint, nobody has L2P problems.

And what exactly are those problems?!
Fury kill stealing is not a problem related to the skill itself but the scoring system.
So what is your complaint?
Supposedly most mobile class that gets outrunned by all stam classes?
Supposedly great burst that is telegraphed and anyone that can count to 4 should have no issues and even though you get to land your combo , it's so lackluster that 90% of ppl just shrug it off?
Supposedly OP shields that scale the worst with the number of attackers then any other defensive mechanic?
What is it?
Or do you mean it the problem that Sorc have worst sustain, itemization range, access to buffs and debuffs....?
Then i completely agree with you.

SirAndy · October 2018

BrightOblivion wrote: »

If my testing was correct earlier, the sweet spot to avoid the hardened ward bug while still getting as much mag as possible lies between 47,332 and 47,436 max mag. I basically took my standard 'stack max mag" petsorc build with necro, IA, and Ilambris on a bar with shield, liquid lightning, blockade, pet, aegis, and atro, and started fiddling with traits and enchants to lower mag and see if hardened ward worked. It didn't at 47,436. It did at 47,332.

In that case it's probably 47,360 which is 0xB900 ...

RMerlin · October 2018

Despite the reversal on the cast time, I look at all the magsorc nerfs in general in this patch, and I still expect to be forced to shelve my 4 years old magsorc once this patch lands. Will probably have to wait to see if they go back on any of these nerfs for update 21.

Very disappointing.

Juhasow · October 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

Well You just said by Yourself then that You dont remember how combat was looking. You just remember what You've been using but not how stats and fights were like. Magicka/health ratio changed a lot btw , even DDs had more health then magicka and good trial DPS was around 1k which is like todays 10k so yeah we got buffed a little. There is lot of holes in Your memories from that times.

[edited to remove quote]

Witar · October 2018

In pvp it will be ok. Might be even better then it is now on live in heavy. In pve all mages will suffer greatly. Those tiny shields won't do in any serious content.

Vahrokh · October 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

It's kinda obvious devs needs to take something away so they're choosing nerfing abilities.

If CP is the problem, instead of crippling the gameplay we love,
ZOS should rather abolish the ill-designed CP system.

[snip]

problem is the game is designed around it, look what happened with the removed the champoin points from morrowind. now no one can sustain. theyve been making content harder to keep up with it and they remove it and were all screwed. not to mention they have nerfed literally everything to the ground to keep up with it

Problem is that people got use to new easier playstyles so quickly they've forgot around what gameplay game was oroginally designed in 2014. It was harsh and punishing , sustain was designed to be hard same as survivality and people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats. Everyone cried and still cries that Morrowind nerfed sustain but in reality even after Morrowind sustain was 10 times better then before Tamriel Unlimited. The problem is community is just concerned when there is lot of nerfs at once but is totally ok when we're getting hugely overbuffed which later causes issues. Morrowind nerfs were the resuls of constant buffs we were getting since Tamriel Unlimited release and constant power creep increase caused by that. At certain point champion points combined with constant addition of new better sets and game mechanics improvements started to make content too easy but people simply got used to it and when developer decided to bring game back to the roots with Morrowind everyone started to complain because everyone got used to new easier and faster playstyle. Champion points issue itself is much more complex and to truly balance the game there would be need of huge rework to CP system.

I perfectly recall how it was in 2014, even in beta.
Ignoring the bugs, quest bugs and pets weakness, everything else in ESO felt perfect.

BUT

I did not suffer from regen / sustain at all and I could play smoothly as silk. Which is what originally made ESO a great, AAA MMO.

Sadly they nerfed NPCs so you could solo more than 2 of them (3 of them = you'd die even in simple outworld!) and nerfed Molag Baal to pulp.

Since 2014, ESO is only going DOWN, class gameplay and fun speaking. Only NBs started very mediocre and lackluster and became better. Even PvP was better and way more fluid.

@Vahrokh I think You slightly missed my point. I never said smooth gameplay was impossible before Tamriel Unlimited. I said quote "people really needed to make build decisions instead of brainlesly going for full offensive stats". Not suffering from sustain/regen issues was possible but it had some cost. Base sustain was hard especially in longer fights but You could make it better by building Your character properly and balancing stats out. You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality. That is the difference between now and then. That is the difference I was talking about.

I've done all the trials when we still had veteran levels (look at Alleviant's health bar showing her level).

Back at the time, I've soloed a ton of stuff: all world bosses but 1 and 4 men that did not have switches requiring 2 players and similar.
Never had sustain issues to be honest.

NOTA BENE
All of the above pertains to BEFORE Tamriel Unlimited.
Just in case any ZOS employee is reading this and his finger is already twitching into adding new nerfs.

Ehh I had some hopes but nvm You've missed the point entirely despite my explanation.

Oh, I have perfectly understood you. But you write:

Juhasow wrote: »

You couldnt build setup like the ones that started around 2016 where You heavily almost brainlesly invest into offensive statistics and You still have great sustain and survivality

... and my whole point is that it's simply not true. I've ALWAYS geared for maximum offensive statistics since open beta and it's done very well until today.

It's not pure DPS classes jobs to "be tanky", "slot heal staff" etc. etc. else we'd just be playing WoW druids or something and be hybrids.
The game - like WoW - should just make available proper gear sets to have tanks be optimal at tanking, healers be optimal at healing and DPS be optimal at DPS. Optimal at DPS includes "staying alive" with DPS gear, which so far has been quite possible.

It's been true for 4 years, I don't see why it should suddenly stop now.

Well actually You're lying here because with soft caps You simply couldnt build just for offensive statistics and if You did it was waste of stats. Using reduce cost or magicka regen parts of gear was a thing max magicka/stamina had a cap above whcih it was kinda pointlees to spend additional numbers in it. You simply were unable to stack just dmg stats and just dmg abilities and go for full burst rotation without backing up Your sustain. Telling that before tamriel Unlimited You were able to keep light attack rotation while investing fully into offensive statistics and beeing low health DD is simply a lie which can be disproved easily just by watching any hard mode trial clear video from 2014. I think Your memory can simply not work that great for remembering ESO early days.

I used AA set first and a mashup with Martial Knowledge later. I recall using 1 (one) regen enchant and that's it.

And what was Your max health/stamina/magicka ? Similar ratio to current ones ? Can Youi deny that average DD had around 1/3 more health then offensive resource ? How about wep/spell dmg (staves scaled from wep dmg back then) ? Were You able to reach similar values to current ones ? Also were You able to sustain easily light/medium attack rotation without using spell symetry or fast ulti gen on mag dk ?

I am not an accountant, with accurate logs of 4 years ago. I used AA gear and, later, Martial Knowledge. I don't think they have changed health / magicka ratio. I did have to regrind AA gear, because my original AA gear was considered a different set than IA we get now.

Well You just said by Yourself then that You dont remember how combat was looking. You just remember what You've been using but not how stats and fights were like. Magicka/health ratio changed a lot btw , even DDs had more health then magicka and good trial DPS was around 1k which is like todays 10k so yeah we got buffed a little. There is lot of holes in Your memories from that times.

While I don't recall if I had NNNN.01 or NNNN.02 of this and that stat, I recall I had no sustain or survivability issue at all, in any content. We had some challenging content in the first months, but then ZOS nerfed it very hard. I recall myself soloing group content with no magicka shortage and with a Crystal Frags build (and before that, an Elemental Ring build), which nowadays is the quintessence of "the magicka sucks".

[edited to remove quote]

RMerlin · October 2018

Witar wrote: »

In pvp it will be ok. Might be even better then it is now on live in heavy. In pve all mages will suffer greatly. Those tiny shields won't do in any serious content.

It's not just about the shields, it's about everything else that also got nerfed/scrapped for magsorcs in this update.

Feanor · October 2018

@Bergzorn

Sure. But if I want to play a character who is stupidly tanky I can do that better on any other class, and some (StamWarden *cough*) even offer a lot more killing potential while doing so.

GrigorijMalahevich · October 2018

Last time sorc was fun when Trapping webs was magicka...

No chance to reinstall the game for me, hehe

Bergzorn · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Bergzorn

Sure. But if I want to play a character who is stupidly tanky I can do that better on any other class, and some (StamWarden *cough*) even offer a lot more killing potential while doing so.

I agree.

But i was amazed by the survivability. As a long-term magsorc player, I'm used to actively defend myself by warding and positioning. Now suddenly I was able to passively mitigate a lot of damage (I knew the numbers but have to admit that I underestimated this a lot) and combine this with the ward (wich did not even benefit from my resistances yet). I just slapped this on, no experience with the setup, no undead passive atm, and quickly got some ridiculous 1vX facetanking situations.

It's rather boring, so I won't use this setup regularly. Magsorc lacks the HOTs to fully utilize the mitigation potential. Wards take execute damage and our burst heal has a cast time. Also the damage is absolutely lacking in comparison to heavy stamina setups. Good players will kill you 1v1 since you can' pressure them and they can go full ham on you.

But that is not what players will see. They will see a facetanking sorc and fury/implosion in their death recap.

Feanor · October 2018

@Bergzorn

But that is not what players will see. They will see a facetanking sorc and fury/implosion in their death recap.

Yes, that's my expectation as well. It won't stop.

ku5h · October 2018

Witar wrote: »

In pvp it will be ok. Might be even better then it is now on live in heavy. In pve all mages will suffer greatly. Those tiny shields won't do in any serious content.

In what universe can it be better then on live. For your shields to be equal strenght with those on live now you have to sacrifice both your *** sustain and your *** SD. For your shields to be strong enough you have to be so tanky to which point you dont even need shields anymore because your're a pure tank. Dont talk crap!

Biro123 · October 2018

ku5h wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

In pvp it will be ok. Might be even better then it is now on live in heavy. In pve all mages will suffer greatly. Those tiny shields won't do in any serious content.

In what universe can it be better then on live. For your shields to be equal strenght with those on live now you have to sacrifice both your *** sustain and your *** SD. For your shields to be strong enough you have to be so tanky to which point you dont even need shields anymore because your're a pure tank. Dont talk crap!

Ahh, but if you are a pure tank, those shields will be extremely effective.
But yeah, for any sorc that wants to do damage in pvp - its a big nerf.

That said, what I don't know is if murkmire blocking reduces damage taken by shields - or does that still not apply like on live? I mean logically, it would be based on the order in which the defence gets hit..
Old shield was based on the idea of it being like a bubble - so anything hit the shield first, then if it got through, you could block - and what was left hit your armour..

But now - its like the shield sits close to the skin - under the armour - otherwise, how could your armour 'protect' the shield? - which surely means that logically, you should be able to block the damage before it gets to your armour, and then to the shield.. ?

Feanor · October 2018

@Biro123

As far as I have followed the discussion in @paulsimonps damage mitigation thread blocking is factored in after the shield, so it doesn’t reduce the damage the shield takes at all.

Biro123 · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Biro123

As far as I have followed the discussion in @paulsimonps damage mitigation thread blocking is factored in after the shield, so it doesn’t reduce the damage the shield takes at all.

That's what I expected - but it just isn't logical!!! (he says waving around a stick, cunjoring magical shields from nowhere while running around on a battlefield in a bikini)

Feanor · October 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Biro123

As far as I have followed the discussion in @paulsimonps damage mitigation thread blocking is factored in after the shield, so it doesn’t reduce the damage the shield takes at all.

That's what I expected - but it just isn't logical!!! (he says waving around a stick, cunjoring magical shields from nowhere while running around on a battlefield in a bikini)

He writes:

Also yes, blocking and anything increasing block mitigation is the only thing that mitigates after the damage shield and you will still be costed stamina if your shield doesn't break while blocking. Most likely this is cause it still helps prevent many forms of CC and the game doesn't wish to look at what type of attack it is. The real value of shields for non blocking targets is that it is now truly an extension of your Health Bar, its a temporary increase of your max health, or that is the way you could look at it when not accounting for overflow and blocking.

Logic =/ ESO