[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - August 16

ESO_Nightingale

To help assist the developers, I am creating a survey of my own that is being assisted partially by the class reps. It will take me about a week or more to complete because it will take into account every single class skill morph. I will be posting it here on the forums, on reddit etc so i can get mostly valid information from a large portion of the community as it is being built to dissuade trolls.

idk

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

for clarification: these are not the basis of the feedback we provided to the devs, these are supplemental. These are meant to provide the PERCEPTION of players onto how certain classes and specs perform in certain aspects of the game. If you disagree with anything you see here, then the best thing you can do is to simply do an entry yourself and include your own perception to counter it.

@Masel92

I did not look at the survey other than the first page because I am not sure if it is still collecting information. Hence I do not know how the questions were worded.

I have a some questions and the answers may lead to other questions and I expect you would not be the correct person to answer each, but when I see stats presented in this manner questions and concerns to come up plus there is really no context provided with the graphs.

1. How was the sampling done?
2. What is the sampling per class? (relevant since it seems each class is rated separately based on the first page.

For now, I had thought the class experts were going to provide the feedback from a player perspective and this seems that Zos is just going to the masses for information.

Considering us in the masses often have opinions that are not good for balance but serve our individual needs and sometimes inefficiencies very well, how is that aspect being filtered out of the information Gina presented and with how the information from the graphs are utilized? This is probably a question for Gina.

Galarthor

@Masel92 don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the effort you put into your job as a class representative. You sacrifice your time in the hopes of improving the gaming experience for all the players. And designing good questionairs / surveys is difficult, even for people with an education in statistics, etc.

Unfortunately, a poorly designed survey can do more harm than good. Especially when the readers of the survey lack the skills to properly interpret the numbers (which most people do). And if information about the setup of the survey and the acquired data is missing, then even people with the skills to properly interpret statistics can not draw appropriate conclusions.

No matter how infuential these statitics are on the data you submit to ZOS and if ZOS takes them into account in their decision making process, they will only sow discontent and suspicion in the community. E.g.: "Was class X buffed because the last survey suggested it was too weak? ... I bet the players of class X did vote their class down on purpose. I should do the same!" -> a vicious cycle starts.

The story would be a slightly different one if you reported objective KPIs. That would provide a solid foundation for discussions and decision making. But even then, people need the skills and information to adequately interpret these KPIs.

Masel

Galarthor wrote: »

@Masel92 don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the effort you put into your job as a class representative. You sacrifice your time in the hopes of improving the gaming experience for all the players. And designing good questionairs / surveys is difficult, even for people with an education in statistics, etc.

Unfortunately, a poorly designed survey can do more harm than good. Especially when the readers of the survey lack the skills to properly interpret the numbers (which most people do). And if information about the setup of the survey and the acquired data is missing, then even people with the skills to properly interpret statistics can not draw appropriate conclusions.

No matter how infuential these statitics are on the data you submit to ZOS and if ZOS takes them into account in their decision making process, they will only sow discontent and suspicion in the community. E.g.: "Was class X buffed because the last survey suggested it was too weak? ... I bet the players of class X did vote their class down on purpose. I should do the same!" -> a vicious cycle starts.

The story would be a slightly different one if you reported objective KPIs. That would provide a solid foundation for discussions and decision making. But even then, people need the skills and information to adequately interpret these KPIs.

Yeah, the problem is that objective KPIs are hard to obtain, since we don't get any data from ZoS and especially pvp is hard to measure objectively, all we'd have there is leaderboards and there's many factors diluting them, such as gameplay time etc.

I made this as a "out-of-interest" survey to see whether playerbase perception is matching the feedback we got. If I had known that it'll be turned against me and cause the confusion it did, then I wouldn't have posted it on here.

Galarthor

Masel92 wrote: »

Yeah, the problem is that objective KPIs are hard to obtain, since we don't get any data from ZoS and especially pvp is hard to measure objectively, all we'd have there is leaderboards and there's many factors diluting them, such as gameplay time etc.

I know. It was just a general remark.

Masel92 wrote: »

I made this as a "out-of-interest" survey to see whether playerbase perception is matching the feedback we got. If I had known that it'll be turned against me and cause the confusion it did, then I wouldn't have posted it on here.

In that case you will have to minimize the impact of "trolls" and manipualtion and best clearly label it as measuring the preception of players. And even then it remains dangerous. But that's mainly due to the ineptitude of the readers and their desire for simple solutions. That's why populism is on the rise.

Perception is a bad desicion criterion, yet it is often all that matters.

BohnT

Masel92 wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

That's not what I meant. It was thelon who said it was "our" or "my" ratings that were just "lol". I don't have any ego issues, but literally anything we say on here triggers someone. Where did I say that input isn't valued? Thelon said his opinion is worth more than the opinion of newer players, and I just told him to enter his opinion to counter what he disagrees on. I made the charts as additional information our of interest how classes are perceived by the playerbase, not more, not less.

I would value a veteran seasoned players opinion about a class they've been playing since beta. I definitely wouldn't dismiss their thoughts with a wink and I wouldn't allow anyone that worked for me to do that either. But then again, I'm not the one that chose you as a representative. You might be very good at crunching numbers and building charts, but you're delivery and customer service is lacking.

Isn't it understandable that I don't just accept it if I do something in my free time, spend hours developing it and think: "bet this will be interesting for people to see", and get the reactions I've seen here?

If you owned a restaurant and had customers who behave very badly and insult the food without tasting it, you wouldn't expect the chef to just take it would you?

The confusion that occurred here is that people think that the charts were the basis for feedback, which they weren't. I wrote that in capital letters above, and even though I did that, the comments on the same topic still arise.

The graph are really good and in general they rather accurate however i fear there are some weaknesses in the way people rate classes.

1. everyone has a different perception how to rate things or how they feel what the numbers express, someone Rating everyone only with 1-5 as he thinks everything is bad while another one keeps using them numbers from 6-10 as he sees everything as very strong.

2. some points are hard to measure for example healing output doesn't differ between self healing and healing others.
Example: stamdk is better healing others due to major mending than a stamsorc while the stamsorc easily wins in terms of self healing with surge being stronger than another vigor and DD on top of that

3. Another issue is Dot damage vs Burst damage.
Strong burst damage is enough for a build to be viable eine if the dot damage is very weak (like stamden) but even exceptional Dot damage is often useless in situations where the enemy has access to a burst defence (shields/ burst heal) as they are never able to break through that defence unless things like major defile are used or the Dot build can utilise some sort of burst

4. defence capabilities also is kinda hard to measure, do you only use the defence the class brings to the table or the defences as a whole? How do two different builds of the same class compare? A dodge build vs block build etc.
Is it only seen for open combat or duels without LoS or is running away and coming back, kiting and using LoS also considered.

Just with these few things my votes would highly vary from time to time.
Example: Dodge build that uses LoS vs a magnb would result in a flat 10 but the same build would be maybe a 2 when facing a magdk or a Spin2Win build
Shields in a 1v1 situation is one of the strongest defence in the game but when facing multiple enemies this effectiveness gets highly reduced so one would vote maybe 8 or 9 while a 1vX player rates shields with maybe 4-5.


Another thing I'm not sure how many players will keep doing the Form as it's kinda time consuming and annoying to do for each class and we all know people are lazy (also i wouldn't think from the start that it's wanted that people fill out the form again after each new patch)

But still thanks for creating these changes nice graphs all the time and for gathering all the information

Ankaridan

We fought long and hard for more open communication with ZOS. Class Reps are a massive step in the right direction and a good thing for the community as a whole.

The absurd vitirol leveled at them in this thread is childish. Keep this up, and don't be surprised if class reps start quitting and ZOS goes back to being silent again.

The most disheartening things to read in this thread are the community responses. Shameful, really.

ak_pvp

From a DK POV:

Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)
*** wrong. Mag is almost universally light if you discount heal bots. Mag heavy sucks due to the meta being things like bleeds/defiles/sloads, and heavy does little against that, you just die, and lose a lot of sustain/damage and mobility all the while. Shields are just a flat better for mage this meta whilst preserving damage. Look at MagDK for example, defense all related to tanking, resists+block passives... But resto > S/b nowadays.

The reason its better for stam players are high damage sets and mobility lets you come close to medium offense whilst being better defensively as medium has no shields and only roll which has exceptions. This isn't a shields OP thing, its just an assessment of what they mitigate and sacrifice vs block/med.

The comments on the DK specific thread were fair. SDK doesn't have enough, and some QoL changes are always welcome, but nothing tackles the biggest problem with the erosion of stand your ground.

ccmedaddy

Ankaridan wrote: »

We fought long and hard for more open communication with ZOS. Class Reps are a massive step in the right direction and a good thing for the community as a whole.

The absurd vitirol leveled at them in this thread is childish. Keep this up, and don't be surprised if class reps start quitting and ZOS goes back to being silent again.

The most disheartening things to read in this thread are the community responses. Shameful, really.

Yeah I have a lot of complaints about class balance like everyone else but the responses in this thread are absurdly melodramatic, even by this forum's standards.

I found the notes encouraging, especially the part where they talk about bringing other classes up to NB's level of effectiveness, rather than nerfing the NB class. That's the direction I want ZOS to go.

code65536

@Masel92 So the concern that I have--and what I wrote about in another thread--is that a lot of the metrics that put nightblades at the top are assuming that the nightblade is being played by a top-level player. The nightblade skill ceiling is higher than that of any other class, and for people who can reach that ceiling, they are richly rewarded with both damage and sustain.

But for the average player, nightblades are not overperforming. And I see this a lot, with casual players that I know who see everyone talk about how strong and OP nightblades are, but when they try it, they find that they're doing less damage on nightblades. And I've had to tell a lot of people that just because top players do well on nightblades doesn't mean that they will.

I know from the meeting notes that class reps are pushing for other classes to be buffed to be more nb-like, but I also suspect that ZOS, being wary of power creep, would prefer to nerf instead. And in that case, I think it's important for ZOS to be presented with data that is more reflective of most players, rather than data that represents the maximum that can be extracted from a class by top players.

LiquidPony

Duel Wield is an end-game PvE requirement because of the Blade Cloak skill

Um ... huh?

That's not true. Was this class reps meeting held in August of 2017 and we're just now hearing about it?

I don't use Deadly Cloak. No one in my raid group uses Deadly Cloak. I don't see streamers and YouTubers from big raid groups using Deadly Cloak. In fact, when stam mitigation is necessary, people often swap to 2H to use Brawler and get that big damage shield (like in vMoL to prevent getting one-shotted if a Savage happens to put his armor break on the group).

I'm picking on this specifically because it's on the short-list of things ZOS is working on for Update 20 and it's ... totally wrong.

Dual wield is a requirement because we've got 2 separate front bar items that can have 2 separate traits and 2 separate glyphs and 2 separate types (e.g., an axe for the bleed and a dagger for the crit, since there is no crit-granting 2H weapon type), and because auto attacks are faster. It has absolutely nothing to do with Deadly Cloak. Dual wield is better because it does more DPS, period (for the reasons I listed above and probably more, like the passive execute damage).

NightbladeMechanics

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Wow, just wow... Poor mNB's, amirite?

Low burst, low defense, low sustain, low CC options... ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME!?!?!?

The problem here is most mNB's suck and don't know how to play the class effectively.

And Mark is fine like it is. Live by stealth, die by stealth. I contest every one of these metrics in regards to mNB PvP performance. @NightbladeMechanics what are you even doing here, you are not being honest about your own class if you agreed with these ratings. Best toolkit in the game that has smooth animation cancels allowing for supreme fight control. But it looks like mNB is getting set up for a round of buffs. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, and yes, I do have a mNB, I mained it for ~2 years. I play all classes with a preference for Sorc and Templar. Low defense options for mNB? If you can control the fight to that degree you have the best defense, period. What, is mNB gonna get a better class version of resto ult now???

Cripple, shade, fear, cloak. These all check multiple boxes in your cute little categories. mNB CC options are THE BEST OF ALL CLASSES. And yeah, Magplars totally have better sustain than mNB's???? I'm just gonna stop here, this is an outrage.

The best advice Class Reps could give to ZOS is to stop reinventing the wheel every ******* patch.

**Edit**: Look, I'm not trying to come across as overly combative. But it's very frustrating seeing some of the conclusions the balance team and class reps comes to. I'm not going to tone down what I said with this edit because I legitimately felt that way and still do. Sorcerers got screwed, Templars still need work, and now I see mNB's being rated low in every discernible category?? Yeah that ticked me off. I don't want NB's nerfed or buffed, I want the other classes to have fantastic versatility and effectiveness like NB's do.

Wait, what? Those feedback tables are 100% composed of community votes and only gauge public sentiment. We don't determine the results, we don't use them when deliberating feedback to bring to ZOS, and ZOS doesn't use them when deliberating changes to make to the game. We collect data throughout the cycle, graph it all right before going into the meetings, and simply use the visuals to see display how the community at large feels about issues. We know that the community is full of misguided opinions, and it's our job to sift through all of that.

None of us have advocated for mageblade buffs, and I've made it clear many times in the meetings that mageblade is pretty nearly balanced in PvP and only needs to be looked at in PvE.

Mark is not fine as-is. Both stealth and detection are too polarizing and lack play/counterplay balance. That is obvious both in our own gameplay and in the massive amounts of feedback we've received on the subject. I don't know ZOS' exact plans for mark, but I do worry they'll come up with some oddball change for it... We'll see.

If you have constructive feedback or opinions to share, feel free to do so civilly. Please refrain from flame and irrational accusations, though.

arkansas_ESO

"ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that."

Where's the nerf for Dizzying Swing?

(Not that it actually needs a nerf, but this new rule they're trying to implement is very inconsistent.)

Sordidfairytale

Masel92 wrote: »

Isn't it understandable that I don't just accept it if I do something in my free time, spend hours developing it and think: "bet this will be interesting for people to see", and get the reactions I've seen here?

If you owned a restaurant and had customers who behave very badly and insult the food without tasting it, you wouldn't expect the chef to just take it would you?

The confusion that occurred here is that people think that the charts were the basis for feedback, which they weren't. I wrote that in capital letters above, and even though I did that, the comments on the same topic still arise.

Well thank you for your efforts on your own time. I guess it's a lesson learned that bringing up information that wasn't used as a basis for the feedback but is related to the feedback is a recipe for confusion.

However you're a class rep, and your first response to people that read your post should be more like some of the other Class reps responses. This one comes for free;

"Hey @Thelon I understand your frustration. Keep in mind that the poll results that I've included is information based on info that we collected from the community and it isn't based on our own personal opinions on the classes. Furthermore the poll was not used in the feedback provided to ZoS at all. The form is still up if you'd like to include some input, I'm sure that the community would value whatever insight you have to offer. Here's a link https://linklookslikethis.com

The Class rep for sorcs is @SorcClassRepIsAwesome and I'm sure that they would like to pick your brain about some of the subjects you brought up. I'm sending them a message linking them to this post and also keep in mind that ZoS is always watching but this post in particular.

Thanks again for your feedback."

WreckfulAbandon

@NightbladeMechanics

Ok fair enough. The only comment directly to you was asking if you agreed with those graphs, I hope you didn't take it as a rant against you specifically. Only thing I can chalk it up to is ppl not knowing how to play their class. I know everyone needs a voice but I'm really hoping that all the reps are able to sift through a lot of the more nonsensical claims. Sorry if I came off as aggressive but those graphs really triggered me.

Agree to disagree about Mark, and I'm pretty moderate when it comes to people's thoughts about stealth gameplay; some would completely gut it if they could. Which I'm sure you're aware of. Thanks for replying, I needed to hear from you or another NB rep that you had no input in those graphs... cause I contest a lot of the ratings there.

idk

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

"ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that."

Where's the nerf for Dizzying Swing?

(Not that it actually needs a nerf, but this new rule they're trying to implement is very inconsistent.)

Dizzy has a full second activation. Very big warning time.

GawdSB

Quantum_V wrote: »

GawdSB wrote: »

As expecting, us DKs are bottom tier in everything but tanking. And yet all we ever see are more nerfs.

"Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics" -> This placed specifically under DK has me frightened, especially when there is no mention of improving mobility within the class as high timed burst plus stun is literally the only way we're getting anywhere on anybody in PVP.

Hey man! Thanks for your concerns, @GawdSB .

That was simply a misunderstanding.

ZoS doesn't want to have hard hitting skills to have a stun factor added to them - thus the changes to frags, shalks and incap in the past. They don't want to touch or nerf burst potential, they simply want to remove the stun component.

The 'move away from high burst + stun mechanics' is supposed to be a general overview of the game mechanics as a whole, and not necessarily DKs - but during the meeting we just happen to be talking about whip and that mechanic at the same time, and Joy does this amazing job of writing these notes down, listening and talking all at the same time - so it just ended up being together in the notes.

Hopefully I was able to clarify some of it, man!

Oh cool thanks for the clarification.

Tasear

https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

Here is a forum feedback to input your concerns. It's what creates pie charts what player's feel are number 1 issues for them.

NightbladeMechanics

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Ok fair enough. The only comment directly to you was asking if you agreed with those graphs, I hope you didn't take it as a rant against you specifically. Only thing I can chalk it up to is ppl not knowing how to play their class. I know everyone needs a voice but I'm really hoping that all the reps are able to sift through a lot of the more nonsensical claims. Sorry if I came off as aggressive but those graphs really triggered me.

Agree to disagree about Mark, and I'm pretty moderate when it comes to people's thoughts about stealth gameplay; some would completely gut it if they could. Which I'm sure you're aware of. Thanks for replying, I needed to hear from you or another NB rep that you had no input in those graphs... cause I contest a lot of the ratings there.

Apology accepted, but you did get very heated directly toward me in more ways than simply asking if I agreed with the graphs.

As I said, the graphs are nothing more than pure public opinion. I don't even vote in them myself. We know that a lot of feedback is biased or bad or emotional, and yes we're quite good at sifting through the bull***. Don't worry.

What we want for stealth and mark, specifically, is greater play/counterplay/counter-counterplay for all parties. We don't want to gut anything. We want all mechanics to remain strong, but soften the super hard counters. Right now, cloak is nearly impervious against someone not packing a strong form of detection, but when a nightblade is under detection, cloak almost becomes a dead bar slot. The majority of the community considers this to be too extreme and wants to introduce greater counterplay both to cloak and to detection. We'll see what that means to ZOS... lol

Hammy01

Masel92 wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

I've lost all faith in this program. It's clear that Zenimax doesn't know how to balance Mag Sorc and the reps have little impact or useful feedback to provide on this issue.

Your PvP mag Sorc "ratings " are just lol. Like please. Mag Sorc has more mobility than Mag Blade? Sure bud. Better defense than Mag Blade, Mag DK, Mag Warden and Mag Plar??? Lol sure bud. Mag Sorc has best sustain of all Mag classes? Wow. Just wow.

Did the Mag Sorc class rep resign? Who in the program actually plays this class in outnumbered PvP? Surely they didn't provide input onto those "ratings"...

The class does not function without an effective stun. Period. Right now, our only viable stun is blockable, dodgeable, reflectable,requires DSA farming, and still is worse than old frags, a skill that was nerfed so "people will try the other morph". How is that acceptable? How does ZOS plan to address that? It's no where in the notes. No where

And these are old issues fellas. You've had months to address it. You're getting nowhere. That's failure. Plain and simple.

I've been as constructive as I can. I'm not bashing or baiting anyone. But you've got to call it like you see it. This is failure personified.

Ratings are based on community feedback as the entries are done by players, so they're not "ours", they're more yours than ours for example. You could've entered your own opinion to counter what you disagree with.

Your opinion apparently does not match the majority of feedback we received, otherwise they'd be on there

What do you mean "yours" vs "ours". You're one of us still, right? Or has the ego of your role confused you? Thanks for your service, but if it comes packaged with that sort of attitude I feel ZoS needs to reconsider their decision. Because now you have "representatives" of the company telling other players that their input isn't valued.

That's not what I meant. It was thelon who said it was "our" or "my" ratings that were just "lol". I don't have any ego issues, but literally anything we say on here triggers someone. Where did I say that input isn't valued? Thelon said his opinion is worth more than the opinion of newer players, and I just told him to enter his opinion to counter what he disagrees on. I made the charts as additional information our of interest how classes are perceived by the playerbase, not more, not less.

I actually feel kind of bad for you class reps... some of the ESO player base are quick to bite . Well you know the old saying -
"You can please all the people sometime, some of the people all the time but never all of the people all of the time"!!

Just keep fighting for what is best for ESO as a whole... Class balance will never be perfect anyways!

Ragnarock41

Sooo, more magDK fixes.. I'm guessing stamDk is completely out of picture AGAIN for U20.(suprise suprise I know) Aaaaand I'm supposed to give constructive criticism.. You know guys, If only you asked for how we felt after morrowind nerfs like you're asking sorcs now only then we could have nice things. Nice things like constructive feedback. Anyways....

You know what, there is one thing I can give you feedback for: Wanna upgrade hardened armor? Get rid of the awful muddy visuals. Yeah, I'm serious , it looks that bad. Not even exaggerating. It would be a lot better without all the mud.

Also heavy armor is used over medium/light in PvP for one simple reason, we simply can not survive in those armor types. Guess who can survive though? nightblades. sorcerers. they do survive through class based mechanics, and in return, can abuse the power of these armor types, the rest can't though. The rest are forced into heavy and nerfing heavy will not change a thing. Stamblades are dominant in medium armor, their fast kit allows for fluid gameplay, cloak literally absorbing damage, combined with great passives, and suprise attack is a fast spammable allowing easy weaves between dodge rolls, meanwhile what do we get? Sadly the dizzying swing.

So TL:DR? Give us half the tools stamblades have and we will actually use medium armor. Me and many others in my PvP guild tried to make medium work countless times, and we always go back to heavy armor after a while cause instadeaths aren't fun, and having to wear 2 sustain sets just to sustain shuffle plus wings isn't fun either.medium damage isn't actually bad, having to run too much sustain makes it bad. I can actually focus on doing damage in heavy, but in medium there is no way. spam rolls or die. the choice is simple in this case.

This is partly why we asked for a stamina whip. 3 out of 5 stam classes are FORCED into dizzying swing if they want to be anything close to stamblades, and its just horrible for that task. Its unreliable, you're exposed to incoming damage, and stamblades can just 100-0 you before you can land a single d.swing, especially in medium. At least in heavy armor you can maybe recover from your mistakes, na-ah, not gonna happen in medium. Give every class a fast spammable option, some form of ''let me out'' spell like cloak or shimmering that is reliable and relatively cheap.(Wings/streak on stamina isn't cheap or reliable).

So yeah, just buffing medium/light or just nerfing heavy will result with more people playing stamblades/magsorcs, less people torturing themselves trying to play medium Dk/sorcerer.

ccmedaddy

idk wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

"ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that."

Where's the nerf for Dizzying Swing?

(Not that it actually needs a nerf, but this new rule they're trying to implement is very inconsistent.)

Dizzy has a full second activation. Very big warning time.

Deep Fissure had a 3 sec warning. Just saying.

Emma_Overload

"Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers"

James-Wayne

If Templars had more in their kit to sustain themselves I'd be happy with my main character... the Repentance skill is great for solo play but terrible for Dungeons and Trials so I hope that gets fixed first.

Ragnarock41

ccmedaddy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

"ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that."

Where's the nerf for Dizzying Swing?

(Not that it actually needs a nerf, but this new rule they're trying to implement is very inconsistent.)

Dizzy has a full second activation. Very big warning time.

Deep Fissure had a 3 sec warning. Just saying.

one is AoE, other one requires a target in melee range for the entire charge-up duration(well not really but if you break line of sight there is a very high chance it will cancel the cast). quite a big difference I would say. Though knowing zenimax they might actually nerf dizzying swing because they want to look like they know exactly what they're doing.

Faulgor

Good read. Thanks to all the Class Reps for their work!

Although we have yet to see meaningful changes make it into the game, reading these notes makes it clear that you are having a positive influence on ZOS. I'm looking forward to what they will do with your insights.

Hotdog_23

First, thanks to all the class reps for taking time and being involved in this program and ZOS for listening to them.

Second after reading all of this comments both good/positive and bad/negative it does give me hope because it shows that people who play this game do care about it each in their own way.

Thanks and long live ESO.

Qwazzy

Add the stun back to frag please.

Ausven

I just want to say that Blade Cloak was said to be the most important thing about dual wielding. Many people including pros when talking about builds said multiple times that BC was MANDATORY in trials because 25% aoe dmg mitigation was too good to pass up. Now, after the damage nerf and the new Yokeda meta in main bar seems like everyone just forgot about that.

That said, dual wield DOES more dps and that is the reason why people are using it, not Deadly Cloak. But I kinda understand where that came from.

Dracane

So Overload's third bar is being removed ? Damage shields are getting nerfed ? It's what I gather from this.
Needless to say, my way of playing Sorcerer will become completely unviable. Pet Sorcerers need this 3rd bar if they want to be able to have some basic important abilities.

Seems like this could be the final blow for this class as far as I am concerned.
I really do applaud those notes, really. But even they can not outshine this destructive change.