[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - August 16

Amdar_Godkiller

BohnT wrote: »

Didaco wrote: »

"Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Can someone please explain what this means?

This means that Zos doesn't want abilities to have the option to deal high damage and stun at the same time as this increases the strength and potency of burst a lot in pvp because you don't need a gcd to stun the enemy.

Things like shalks, frags, incap, wrecking blow have been already nerfed to do this.

Some abilities like suprise attack from stealth or power lash still perform that way however

Yeah how has surprise attacks stun not been removed yet. That skill is as OP as Incap, if not more so. It does way too much for a low cost spammable. Have it scale to max health or remove the stun.

Amdar_Godkiller

Aliyavana wrote: »

PLEASE, make wrecking blow a instant spammable and keep dizzying swing the same for the others that want the stun

To me, the only dizzying swing that actually seems to have a cast time is the initial one, just like with lethal arrow. All subsequent "spams" don't seem to take as long to channel, and this seems to be the problem with both skills. I never have just one Lethal arrow or one dizzying in my racap, it's either 4 that all seem to hit at once or none.

Aedaryl

BohnT wrote: »

Didaco wrote: »

"Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Can someone please explain what this means?

This means that Zos doesn't want abilities to have the option to deal high damage and stun at the same time as this increases the strength and potency of burst a lot in pvp because you don't need a gcd to stun the enemy.

Things like shalks, frags, incap, wrecking blow have been already nerfed to do this.

Some abilities like suprise attack from stealth or power lash still perform that way however

And how about the most powerfull AOE stun + high damage + high target bound dot ability ?

When they will nerf downbreaker ?

Masel

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

Many people have lost faith and integrity of this program. This is the honest feedback . Some classes only meant for cannon fodder. NB & DKs are like near gods in PVP. DKs are immortal gods with exploitable builds and more buffs in future!!! NB is near gods in PVE & PVP. Instead of balancing , give a free class change token for everyone once every 6 months like other MMOs . Let everyone change class or race as they please and let them play as they like similar to other MMOS and enjoy the game There wont be any balance problem No need to balance anything. Already done enough to unbalance the game .

Take my suggestion only in case if you people want ESO to be competitive in the market.

This is a post that is symptomatic of many posts in this thread. Can you people chill out a bit and not lose your minds for once? There's a ton of people whining about things they either don't fully understand or don't even try to understand. There haven't even been any changes yet and still so many people here completely lose it. Did you even consider that it will take time for ZoS to implement things we tell them?

There will be a delay between our meetings and ZoS' reactions to it. Update 20 is the first update where changes based on our feedback will be implemented, and you already claim that the program has lost integrity and faith?

My goodness...

usmguy1234

Masel92 wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

Many people have lost faith and integrity of this program. This is the honest feedback . Some classes only meant for cannon fodder. NB & DKs are like near gods in PVP. DKs are immortal gods with exploitable builds and more buffs in future!!! NB is near gods in PVE & PVP. Instead of balancing , give a free class change token for everyone once every 6 months like other MMOs . Let everyone change class or race as they please and let them play as they like similar to other MMOS and enjoy the game There wont be any balance problem No need to balance anything. Already done enough to unbalance the game .

Take my suggestion only in case if you people want ESO to be competitive in the market.

This is a post that is symptomatic of many posts in this thread. Can you people chill out a bit and not lose your minds for once? There's a ton of people whining about things they either don't fully understand or don't even try to understand. There haven't even been any changes yet and still so many people here completely lose it. Did you even consider that it will take time for ZoS to implement things we tell them?

There will be a delay between our meetings and ZoS' reactions to it. Update 20 is the first update where changes based on our feedback will be implemented, and you already claim that the program has lost integrity and faith?

My goodness...

I interpret what this person is saying is that they've lost faith in Zos' ability to take critical feedback on their decision making. I think we have enough history of issues from the pts to prove that to be a valid view-point.

Just my take. I could be completely wrong.

Masel

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

Many people have lost faith and integrity of this program. This is the honest feedback . Some classes only meant for cannon fodder. NB & DKs are like near gods in PVP. DKs are immortal gods with exploitable builds and more buffs in future!!! NB is near gods in PVE & PVP. Instead of balancing , give a free class change token for everyone once every 6 months like other MMOs . Let everyone change class or race as they please and let them play as they like similar to other MMOS and enjoy the game There wont be any balance problem No need to balance anything. Already done enough to unbalance the game .

Take my suggestion only in case if you people want ESO to be competitive in the market.

This is a post that is symptomatic of many posts in this thread. Can you people chill out a bit and not lose your minds for once? There's a ton of people whining about things they either don't fully understand or don't even try to understand. There haven't even been any changes yet and still so many people here completely lose it. Did you even consider that it will take time for ZoS to implement things we tell them?

There will be a delay between our meetings and ZoS' reactions to it. Update 20 is the first update where changes based on our feedback will be implemented, and you already claim that the program has lost integrity and faith?

My goodness...

I interpret what this person is saying is that they've lost faith in Zos' ability to take critical feedback on their decision making. I think we have enough history of issues from the pts to prove that to be a valid view-point.

Just my take. I could be completely wrong.

While I agree that it's been like that in the past, I really see that the program changes that quite significantly. The list of key pain points that wrobel presented to us was very consistent with the notes we gave them, and these notes were based on feedback we got from the discords, the forums and the feedback form. The changes that will come out of this are out of our hands, but at least we make sure they tackle the right issues.

The discussion we had with them was really really insightful, and seeing players blindly dismissing our work here feels awful, to say the least.

usmguy1234

Masel92 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

Many people have lost faith and integrity of this program. This is the honest feedback . Some classes only meant for cannon fodder. NB & DKs are like near gods in PVP. DKs are immortal gods with exploitable builds and more buffs in future!!! NB is near gods in PVE & PVP. Instead of balancing , give a free class change token for everyone once every 6 months like other MMOs . Let everyone change class or race as they please and let them play as they like similar to other MMOS and enjoy the game There wont be any balance problem No need to balance anything. Already done enough to unbalance the game .

Take my suggestion only in case if you people want ESO to be competitive in the market.

This is a post that is symptomatic of many posts in this thread. Can you people chill out a bit and not lose your minds for once? There's a ton of people whining about things they either don't fully understand or don't even try to understand. There haven't even been any changes yet and still so many people here completely lose it. Did you even consider that it will take time for ZoS to implement things we tell them?

There will be a delay between our meetings and ZoS' reactions to it. Update 20 is the first update where changes based on our feedback will be implemented, and you already claim that the program has lost integrity and faith?

My goodness...

I interpret what this person is saying is that they've lost faith in Zos' ability to take critical feedback on their decision making. I think we have enough history of issues from the pts to prove that to be a valid view-point.

Just my take. I could be completely wrong.

While I agree that it's been like that in the past, I really see that the program changes that quite significantly. The list of key pain points that wrobel presented to us was very consistent with the notes we gave them, and these notes were based on feedback we got from the discords, the forums and the feedback form. The changes that will come out of this are out of our hands, but at least we make sure they tackle the right issues.

The discussion we had with them was really really insightful, and seeing players blindly dismissing our work here feels awful, to say the least.

People are passionate about this game and that is a good thing. It's like- wise a good thing to know the devs passion. People say a lot of things in the heat of the moment that they don't mean. I would say a majority of the forum are behind the class reps and appreciate what you do... for the Zos devs on the other hand, that's a mixed bag. Trust is earned not given. That being said, if the devs do as you say, that will go a long way in mending that relationship.

Joy_Division

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Alright, look. I primarily play magsorc, but I actually pay attention to my opponents in pvp and notice what they can and cannot counter on average for every class.

Changes I would recommend for sorc:

1. Give Crystal Fragments the 2s stun back. (pvp morph) The counterplay is to dodge, block, or REFLECT the projectile.
2. Give Crystal Blast the instant cast and reduced cost effect from cFrag, remove the stun, leave the AoE. (pve morph)
3. Rune Prison should be reworked into a class DOT delivered by projectile (sort of like vampires bane). Remove the stun completely
4. Reduce the penalty on Bolt Escape to match the penalty on dodge roll. I agree you shouldn't be able to bolt escape forever, but the current penalty is too high.
5. Remove the AoE stun from the scamp.

So this is gonna sound stupid to some people, but the counterplay to shields is to just deal damage (especially as a stam since you don't refund their harness). A sorc in pvp cannot afford to let much damage get through to the health bar because heals are low without major compromises to damage, so if you are applying consistent pressure, then most of the sorc's mag goes to shielding or streaking to reposition rather than attacking you.

The big thing to remember about pvp is that some classes have advantages and disadvantages in different situations and that's okay. Sorcs can counter dodge roll with streak, but we have nothing to drop block without rune cage (or vamp drain), and we do not have a class defile to counter healing, curse and fury debuff are purgeable, we don not have a class purge, we do not have a class snare or snare immunity (okay the atro ult snares the target)... and this is GOOD because it allows certain classes and builds to do well against Sorcs naturally, but it does not completely negate the skill needed by either player.

(Bad design is the previous patch's 5 second unavoidable rune cage which brings a clear advantage to magsorc)

---

High Damage skill that have a stun/snare/whatever, are not the problem for one one basic reason... if you remove the Stun from the damaging attacks (which are blockable and dodgeable typically), then you need to place a stun on another skill that doesn't deal damage... but in order for that non damage skill to be WORTH CASTING it needs to be really good at what it does... ie unblockable/undodgeable, which is how we wound up with the bull**** rune cage from last patch.

The main reason the above statement is true (compared to other MMO's) is the presence of active defenses with dodge and block and break free at will. If we could not do these things then high damage CC's would indeed be completely unfair.

---

As many have already stated, shields in PvE are not the problem for healers and imo neither are self heals. There are mechanics in this game that absolutely overwhelm dps self heals and shields are primarily to avoid 1-shots and BUY TIME FOR THE HEALERS to do their job. Ask any real end game healer, and they are grateful to dps who take the initiative to protect themselves.

If ZOS went full nerf hammer and made shields all but useless, end game healers would essentially be relegated to healing spring bots. I'm going to assume most of them would not like that very much.

Let's say I agree with you, mostly because I do.

Let's say I pretty much communicated the essence of what you are saying here, because I did. Not the specifics per se, but what you are saying about frags.

What happens next when ZOS comes straight out and unequivocally asserts: Crystal Frag stun + high damage is not coming back?

Because that's where we are right now. All those proposed fixes for sorcerer woes that in essence are give frags back and just get rid of Rune Prison are non starters given the above stance that has been communicated by ZOS.

Drdeath20

Some very strong ego's need to get checked. These reps are doing a great job. They actually took the time to collect the communitys perception and opinions about the game and displayed for all to see. Its just information, take it or leave it.

If your angry about a potential nerf, that hasnt come yet, i can relate but for right now people need to be more constructive and less destructive about their approach.

Oumalakasha

I came from GW2 where dev communication is very poor, save but one or two devs. If they had this sort of rep program, I would still be playing the game. I think it's easy to dismiss the rep's feedback when what is listed isn't what you were hoping or expecting to see. However, the fact that this sort of program is in place is huge. It means a lot to me that ZOS is willing to even have such a program. Thank you for all your hard work, reps, and thank you ZOS for even allowing this sort of thing to exist.

aetherial_heavenn

Mureel wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

SO NOT what we even ever said!

1. DUNGEON MECHANICS are either minimal damage or one shot, rendering healers ineffective.
2. DPS IS OP
3. SELF HEALS are OP (in PVE)

Were the things we actually said. smh.

*Gives up and focuses on Tanking and DPS.*

This is the response after sending 7 page document on healing. The issue was talked about in depth and it's something that will have to come over time.

Still.

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

Who ever even said this? If anyone PVE based said or thinks this, they just do not know what they're even talking about. Shields are not a problem, nor is it anything to do with the reasons why healers aren't often needed for anything other than trials.

That up there is PVP-Focussed shield-stacking wahwah.

It has nothing to do with healers in PVE *at all*

In PVE Harness is used for sustain, not just as a shield, and sorcs DO have lower health when using BiS sets/food, and NEED to shield - plus, if you use empowered ward; regen.

NB Has self heal incorporated in Funnel Health (also refreshing path, but you would not use that except maybe in V CR )
Sorc Has Shield & Matriarch, if they even use that (again situational)
All melee and tank have cheap and easy vigor access.

No one in PVE ever said: We don't need a healer for V Whatever HM because people have shields.

People consistently say: Healer not needed because barely any damage or 1 shot mechanics. 3 Dps also FASTER.

This IS the end-game PVE Healing issue; when it comes to Challenging Hard Modes, etc.: Major High DPS is being used to skip mechanics, because you cannot heal through the mechanics (1 shots) anyway, that they are often trying to use DPS to skip. OR it is just plain fastter full stop, even with deaths, because DPS is OP.

TL;DR: DPS OP + Damage very light or TOO DAMN HIGH. No middle ground = Healer obsolete except in less skilled groups/non HM content.

This is exactly how i interpreted the healer feedback in the forums and in the healer discord. Shields were never mentioned as a pain point by healers.
Fact: Harness magicka is used for sustain even by magicka Healers!!!
@Zos: SHIELDS ARE NOT THE ISSUE IN PVE. HIGH DPS COMBINED WITH STUPID HIGH SUSTAINABLE SELF HEALS ENABLING DPS GROUPS TO BYPASS DUNGEON MECHANICS WITHOUT NEEDING EXTERNAL HEALS ARE THE REASONS HEALERS ARE REDUNDANT.
Solutions
either: Redesign vet mechanics away from burn or one shot. Make external heals and buffs/debuffs crucial.
or: Make endless self heals require giving up high sustain and therefore high dps through cp adjustments.
The former is much more preferable as it does not bork overland soloers or pvp. Although nbs will still win hands down having all 3 available (sustain, high dps, and high self heals in an easy rotation) at least the other classes using light armour would continue to have some defence and a source of sustain. This is crucial in trials all dungeons and some overland content.
#leaveharnessmagickaalone

Ragnaroek93

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I think the notes look good and I don't understand all the hate. I actually agree with most of the points made.

You agree that MagNB is weaker (bottom tier according to the charts) in PvP than MagWarden and that MagPlar has worse CC options than a MagWarden?

I said with most of the points, not with all. And I don't know why you come up with Magden again, why don't you create a thread about Magden and give some ideas on how to fix the class? Would be better than turning every discussion into a Magden is underpowered topic...

Seriously, I don't even play Magden, nor do I play Magplar, how the heck am I supposed to know what's better in whatever scenario? And isn't "Better ability to control opponents in PvP" exactly what Magden needs?

Masel

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I think the notes look good and I don't understand all the hate. I actually agree with most of the points made.

You agree that MagNB is weaker (bottom tier according to the charts) in PvP than MagWarden and that MagPlar has worse CC options than a MagWarden?

I said with most of the points, not with all. And I don't know why you come up with Magden again, why don't you create a thread about Magden and give some ideas on how to fix the class? Would be better than turning every discussion into a Magden is underpowered topic...

Seriously, I don't even play Magden, nor do I play Magplar, how the heck am I supposed to know what's better in whatever scenario? And isn't "Better ability to control opponents in PvP" exactly what Magden needs?

Problem is that many people don't seem to read anything, instead they look at the charts and rage completely. Most issues that were talked about in this thread are literally in the notes.

FrancisCrawford

@ZOS_GinaBruno -- just to be clear: Are you and your colleagues interpreting those charts as being seriously representative of the distribution of views in the player base? Or do you see them more as unscientific, utterly biased, possibly interesting anecdata?

bardx86

Daus wrote: »

It's about time they address damage shields. I'm liking the direction they're going. Makes me happy to support it.

Ya and cloak.

MooseKnuckles88

Am I the only one who took notice that ZOS acknowledged that wardens are gonna get some help? I'm not sure what exactly that means for the future, but at least they made the comment about it.

Priyasekarssk

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Am I the only one who took notice that ZOS acknowledged that wardens are gonna get some help? I'm not sure what exactly that means for the future, but at least they made the comment about it.

Future is NB & DK. All other classes are rare species. Sorc is non existent. Biased people at its finest. Just ask for class change token for sorcs.

Zardayne

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Am I the only one who took notice that ZOS acknowledged that wardens are gonna get some help? I'm not sure what exactly that means for the future, but at least they made the comment about it.

I read it too and I feel they are looking in the right direction. A magden needs some CC and I got that out of their "control" statement. Perhaps we'll get some sort of vine like CC which would be cool.

High DPS not being dependent on bear- Check
Possible reduction of all of the damn buffing- Check
A class specific buff to bring to the group-Check

I'd prefer the bear to be a single slotted ultimate but other than that, they make those happen I feel I'd be a pretty happy camper as far as my class goes.

Strider__Roshin

bardx86 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It's about time they address damage shields. I'm liking the direction they're going. Makes me happy to support it.

Ya and cloak.

That too.

Aedaryl

@Checkmath

A magsorc got carried and even with that it's only third. Stamina didn't got the right to use lingering potions and a lot of other things was forbidden.

Just link the video, people need to see how much magsorc got reckt and how their defense is trash. They got always focused and the result is awfull, they can't hold pressure and burst because shield(stacking) is the worst defense in the game, especially when outnumbered.

Mag sorc have terrible offense and terrible defense, it's just noob killing machine. Even when cheese sets are forbidden (troll king, zaan, master dual wield, ect) and when lingering is forbidden, they are not competitive.

weedgenius

Kimundi wrote: »

vFL HM is a perfect example. It's supposed to be one of the toughest 4-player fight out there, and it's actually EASIER without a healer. A role that is literally "required" by the group finder... I actually had to ask groups to bring me in to actually do it on a healer, at the expense of becoming a pure debuff/interrupting role. I enjoy getting out of my confort zone and doing something new as a healer, but I really felt useless.

Same here. Trying to farm vSCP for purple Jorvuld's jewelry but groups don't want me because apparently it is easier to do vSCP with three magic-based DPS than with two and a healer.

Drdeath20

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Checkmath

A magsorc got carried and even with that it's only third. Stamina didn't got the right to use lingering potions and a lot of other things was forbidden.

Just link the video, people need to see how much magsorc got reckt and how their defense is trash. They got always focused and the result is awfull, they can't hold pressure and burst because shield(stacking) is the worst defense in the game, especially when outnumbered.

Mag sorc have terrible offense and terrible defense, it's just noob killing machine. Even when cheese sets are forbidden (troll king, zaan, master dual wield, ect) and when lingering is forbidden, they are not competitive.

How is shield stacking the worst defense in the game when outnumbered? Its much better than trying to outheal the damage. If your built to Xv1 as a sorc im sure your slotting bolt.

Gnortranermara

I really hope the pathologically negative trolls don't ruin this program. The class reps are doing a great job communicating our major concerns to the developers. Sure, there are things I would've done differently but the bottom line is it's a huge job and they're putting in the work to filter out the noise and bring quality feedback to the devs.

ZOS_GinaBruno

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno -- just to be clear: Are you and your colleagues interpreting those charts as being seriously representative of the distribution of views in the player base? Or do you see them more as unscientific, utterly biased, possibly interesting anecdata?

Neither. We find them to be very interesting, and it's one piece of feedback we use in addition to many other sources of feedback. But it only covers a very small amount of the total player base and may not be representative of how everyone feels.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I really hope the pathologically negative trolls don't ruin this program. The class reps are doing a great job communicating our major concerns to the developers. Sure, there are things I would've done differently but the bottom line is it's a huge job and they're putting in the work to filter out the noise and bring quality feedback to the devs.

Agreed, they're doing a fantastic job. This is a serious time commitment and is very difficult to put all the feedback together, and we are committed to the program on our end. We're finding it to be extremely insightful so far.

And just to reiterate what's been said in the past, this isn't the only feedback/data we're looking at when making game-changing decisions. But it's been invaluable to have a group of dedicated players present some of the larger topics that are important to the community.

Drummerx04

Joy_Division wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Alright, look. I primarily play magsorc, but I actually pay attention to my opponents in pvp and notice what they can and cannot counter on average for every class.

Changes I would recommend for sorc:

1. Give Crystal Fragments the 2s stun back. (pvp morph) The counterplay is to dodge, block, or REFLECT the projectile.
2. Give Crystal Blast the instant cast and reduced cost effect from cFrag, remove the stun, leave the AoE. (pve morph)
3. Rune Prison should be reworked into a class DOT delivered by projectile (sort of like vampires bane). Remove the stun completely
4. Reduce the penalty on Bolt Escape to match the penalty on dodge roll. I agree you shouldn't be able to bolt escape forever, but the current penalty is too high.
5. Remove the AoE stun from the scamp.

So this is gonna sound stupid to some people, but the counterplay to shields is to just deal damage (especially as a stam since you don't refund their harness). A sorc in pvp cannot afford to let much damage get through to the health bar because heals are low without major compromises to damage, so if you are applying consistent pressure, then most of the sorc's mag goes to shielding or streaking to reposition rather than attacking you.

The big thing to remember about pvp is that some classes have advantages and disadvantages in different situations and that's okay. Sorcs can counter dodge roll with streak, but we have nothing to drop block without rune cage (or vamp drain), and we do not have a class defile to counter healing, curse and fury debuff are purgeable, we don not have a class purge, we do not have a class snare or snare immunity (okay the atro ult snares the target)... and this is GOOD because it allows certain classes and builds to do well against Sorcs naturally, but it does not completely negate the skill needed by either player.

(Bad design is the previous patch's 5 second unavoidable rune cage which brings a clear advantage to magsorc)

---

High Damage skill that have a stun/snare/whatever, are not the problem for one one basic reason... if you remove the Stun from the damaging attacks (which are blockable and dodgeable typically), then you need to place a stun on another skill that doesn't deal damage... but in order for that non damage skill to be WORTH CASTING it needs to be really good at what it does... ie unblockable/undodgeable, which is how we wound up with the bull**** rune cage from last patch.

The main reason the above statement is true (compared to other MMO's) is the presence of active defenses with dodge and block and break free at will. If we could not do these things then high damage CC's would indeed be completely unfair.

---

As many have already stated, shields in PvE are not the problem for healers and imo neither are self heals. There are mechanics in this game that absolutely overwhelm dps self heals and shields are primarily to avoid 1-shots and BUY TIME FOR THE HEALERS to do their job. Ask any real end game healer, and they are grateful to dps who take the initiative to protect themselves.

If ZOS went full nerf hammer and made shields all but useless, end game healers would essentially be relegated to healing spring bots. I'm going to assume most of them would not like that very much.

Let's say I agree with you, mostly because I do.

Let's say I pretty much communicated the essence of what you are saying here, because I did. Not the specifics per se, but what you are saying about frags.

What happens next when ZOS comes straight out and unequivocally asserts: Crystal Frag stun + high damage is not coming back?

Because that's where we are right now. All those proposed fixes for sorcerer woes that in essence are give frags back and just get rid of Rune Prison are non starters given the above stance that has been communicated by ZOS.

So what about ultimates with CCs on them? Is ZOS removing the CC from Dawnbreaker, meteor, atro, permafrost, leap, and incap? Fear and fossilize still being completely unavoidable? What about the stamina Javelin? It's not super high tooltip, but it still adds quite a bit to burst for stamplars in PvP. What about destructive touch with a dsa staff? That hits pretty hard too.

What about flying blade hitting upwards of 5-8k? Oh they reduced the snare duration to 4 seconds? Well that thing gets spammed from the middle of a zerg anyway, so It's still effectively permanent.

I mean fine, you guys have virtually zero actual sway in ZoS's decisions apparently, so I guess I can't really fault you all.

it's just so annoying how ZOS seems to think that players are simultaneously too tanky, too bursty, and too much healing all at the same time. Do they want us to just stand 10 paces away from each other and light attack with proc sets until someone comes out on top? What exactly is the end game here?

Are they planning to remove CC's from all but 4 dedicated skills? What's the actual benefit of slotting frags in PvP?

Priyasekarssk

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It's about time they address damage shields. I'm liking the direction they're going. Makes me happy to support it.

Every thread you're in, you complain about shields so I am sure you are.

Problems don't go away when they're not addressed.

It's not a problem if the community doesnt say anything about them. You dont see forum posts addressing how shields are op unless the player is a month new to the game.

Oh it's a popular topic in the forums. The players aren't new. That's just how you're dismissing it in order to justify it in your mind.

The moment you say one negative thing about shieldstacking, 200 forum sorcs will jump on you and spam the thread with L2P posts. Nah I'll pass.

HankTwo wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Some stam DK friends of mine already switched to medium armor some time ago and they do pretty well with it in no CP open world + BGs. Otherwise, I mostly agree with those statements about dizzying swing. The skill just feels too clunky and can easily be countered by speed, which is even more so a problem with swift jewelry around.

Btw, I think you are confusing hardened armor with the stone giant animation.

The ones I see in no-CP were mostly proc Dks with sloads+viper, also very often master dw too, which is a playstyle that works on any class with no effort or skill required , Does not require medium armor at all to function either really.(I very often witness those new wave stamDks getting two shot by magsorcs or stamblades, yet they say left and right about how good of a player they are, nothing but classic proctards I would say.) The only saving grace of medium armor is the mobility and reduced costs imho. And at that point, whats the point of playing stamDK over a stamblade, If I'm going to get my dots from sets? At the very least stamblade can amp up passives for sets like sheer venom or viper with their class passives, but DK has no access to that either.

The rather unexperienced ones perhaps.
But the good ones will agree that shield stacking is annoying. The problem is, most Sorcerers simply have no chance to survive without stacking shields. Because shields really are bad in pvp. So the solution would be, to slightly increase the strenght of single shields and definately making them significantly cheaper. Then shieldstack can gladly go.

The problem is sustainability of shieldstacking and lack of counters.(similar to wings it scales badly against multiple foes and overperforms against a single foe that can't break it through, but outside of dodge roll and cloak, all defense methods scale terribly against multiple foes.)

Its simply not punishing enough. A dodge spammer loses stam at an increased rate,blockers lose stam regen and also lose stam for every hit they block. I can abuse their weakness against them , drain their resources extremely fast and as result get a kill without the need to fight for eternity. Not even gonna mention defile. The only stamina class that can duke it out around a tower endlessly against me is stamblades, cause of their oh so underperforming shade and cloak.

Meanwhile the only counter to shields is oblivion damage cheese, and there are no downsides to using them, only benefits.

A while ago I suggested penetration to allow a very small portion of the damage done to go through shields, that way crits and penetration would have some value against shield users, and sorcs could get buffs to healing if needed. Obviously my idea was trashed out of the window by expert sorcs of our forum so I never had the chance to bring it up again, but thinking back on it now, it would make a lot more sense than introducing sloads or shieldbreaker.

So how would that help the sorc getting hit by multiple people? It would only make their shields melt faster than they already do. Honestly that is the truth for just one above average player.

Sorcs dont need much help to begin with. "My defence scales terribly against multiple foes" isn't a justification to have unlimited survivability against high TTK playstyles such as stamDk(while also having no sustain penalties for accessing it)

Many people discussing sorc even viable to play. Sorc dont need much ? Biased at its prime. Let me tell you onething. If sorc problem not rectified, many people abandon sorc in mass numbers. Already many people did. Some will abandon the game. You will see only 1 sorc out of 100 populations. People are not fools to run behind a underdog. Eventually people end up with DKs , NBs and Stamdens in 99 percent of PVP population. Welcome to PVP where no one dies. People will *** ZOs because of effort they put in level up character. For people who dont own sorc main , will simply delete the character. People will never play a clearly under powered class.

On tournaments sorc is literally garbage. Only DKs and NBs are top 8+ out of 10 positions in dueling tournaments. DK vs sorc , dk wins comfortably on duels. Thats why all dueling tournaments are full of DKs and NBs now. Dueling tournaments are 1v1 situation. Not 1 vX. After ZOs nerf , sorc population in battle grounds gone down.
Why dueling tournaments is filled with DKs and NBs ? explain .

Vrany69

Judging by some of the changes in this patch Wolfhunter DLC, we can see how much this meeting thing is actually valued, complete BS

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK a few things here.

About the Charts
They are not “my” feedback, nor are they the reps. They are from the ESO community. I don’t agree with a lot of the rankings, so what do you suppose I should do? Throw them away and disregard your feedback because I don’t agree with it? I would not presume to be so arrogant.

And what’s this about a /played requirement to give feedback? What elitist nonsense. Even if we did implement such a methodology, a lot of the feedback would still be skewed, biased, inaccurate, and bad; I’ve know quite a few people who have played for a long time and some of them just aren’t good at the game or their understanding of it is questionable at best. It’s not like old-time players aren’t biased, especially those upset at what their classes used to be able to.

We live in a democratic culture where everyone has the right to give their opinion and have it heard. Even the not-so-smart, the not-very-informed, and the fire-breathing ideologues. That does not mean I, we, the devs, or anybody else has to agree or act on those opinions. LOL magplar PvP defense capabilities better than Warden? I didn’t realize holding down block was a class feature. If a ZOS rep asks me about something about that chart, I will not take the chart as Gospel. I will give my assessment if I feel the community is exaggerating, still stuck in an old meta, missing out on the nuances, etc., which is kind of how things are supposed to work: everyone has their voice heard, but not necessarily followed. Which is why when ZOS went through their future plans and asked if there was something else, I spoke up and said templars only have one outdated craptastic ability that actually defends them (as opposed to reacting to attacks which have already hit them, which is quite a different thing).

About Collecting feedback in general.
What do you want us to do? I’ve been a rep for months and ONE person has bothered to send me a message telling me something. One! I am not an expert at Clairvoyance and Mindreading. We put threads on the forums. We opened up discords. We have “representative” under our forum name. We made evaluation forums (where the much-derided charts came from). If you think it’s so easy to collect worthwhile feedback, how about you take a look at the Sorcerer Discord: it is full of salt, e-peen, and immature nonsense. If you have some sort of constructive idea where we can gather actual feedback as opposed to creating another venue for in-game rivalries and personality conflicts which will make another salt mine, I’m all ears.

And many of you have no idea the amount of contradictory feedback we get, even from the 4+ year “elite” players who claim to know everything. Every class has a lobby that insists they have been over-nerfed, are useless, and in general pointless to play, while some other class is OP. Ever since 1.6, it’s been a joke how Sorcerers and Nightblades trash each other and insist the other is ZOS’s favorite.

We did submit to ZOS detailed DPS parses comparing all the classes to each other, the DPS, the resource management, both stamina and magicka, we broke it all down. We sent the videos to ZOS. One of the reps collected ELEVEN pages on notes on just ONE topic – that’s longer than 90% of college essays. It was done because that rep is dedicated to ensuring YOUR feedback is communicated to the devs.

Whatever you may think, we do spend a lot of our free time listening to what the community has to say, which is more I can say for some people in this thread doing a lot of complaining:

“None of your metrics point to the fact that high level raids will only allow 1 Sorc and usually max out their DPS squad with Stamblade.”
First of all, they are NOT my or our metrics. Those charts are a collection of date from the community. If you dislike or disagree with the perception of the community, that’s your prerogative, but it is what it is, which is not our evaluations.

Secondly:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

PVE diversity. Class reps brought up the unsatisfying “meta” that some groups are just loading up on Nightblade DPS, with just one other support class (DK tank for Engulfing Flames, Templar healer for Purify and PoTL, Sorcerer off-healer for Conduits).

Yes, the metrics you disagree with didn’t point to your complaint. However, because those aren’t our metrics, the reps did precisely bring up your complaint and it’s right there in the OP

About the reps not playing sorcerers while outnumbered and being “god awful” at the class.
First of all, the reps aren’t assigned to a specific class. So no sorcerer Rep. Or Templar Rep. Etc. We collaborate. Someday, perhaps some of you will be a part of a program designed to gather feedback from people who are hoping you will bring some change they are desperately seeking. And then, have people doubt your aptitude and ability when those hopes did not fully materialize despite your best efforts. Because maybe, just maybe, we aren’t clueless chumps?

Secondly, some of us do play sorcerers and do care about where the class is going. People think of me as a templar, but I said a lot more about Sorcerers in this meeting. Twice, when the meeting was going to move onto the next topic, I interjected and said we needed to talk about sorcerers because ever since the change to crystal frags, the class has been in essence stuck in neutral, in PvP and PvE. At the end of the meeting, I straight up said this and that if the PTS sorcerer notes consist of only what’s in ZOS’s goals, they are going to be profoundly disappointed. I was told High damage+Stun frags are not coming back - that was made crystal clear - so I said at present both morphs of Crystal Shard are in bad way that it’s no longer a defining feature: the channeled blast will not be a competitive stun or AoE without major reform or the instant-cast Fragment morph no longer does the sort of damage that makes it noteworthy (and it costs more than Assassin’s will). Will ZOS heed what I had to say? I don’t know. Hopefully. But I don’t think it is fair at all that the Reps comments are not being evaluated: people are just looking at ZOS’s goals and those charts, which are being mistaken for our assessments.

What more was I supposed to do? I stick up for your class, repeated your feedback to ZOS when I did not feel their goals acknowledged it, and I come onto this thread and see this sort of crap about our methodology and that I’m “god awful” at the class? What a bunch of garbage.

About Zos’s goals
They are just that. Goals. That’s all. Not patch notes. Subject to change. They did not tell us how or in what way they are going to go about it. We have no idea. You don’t agree with some of them? That’s fine. I don’t agree with some of them either. I tell you one straight up that I think is not a good idea:

Having multiple templars be able to repent the same course is something I disagree with. The whole point of the original skill was for ONE templar to use this skill to support their groupmates with stamina and a heal. Now the skill is selfish, having other templars being able to repent still makes it a selfish skill and I really dislike the tactical element where enemy templars could deny the other side those corpses. The original skill was one of the most interesting in the entire game.

But here’s the thing. Even though I don’t agree with the goal, I’m not going to throw my hands up in the air, proclaim the program a miserable failure. Because this program has brought up something I and many old-time players have been asking ZOS to do for years: let us know what they are working on *before* the patch notes. Everything has always been just given to us, with no ability to have any input until it was on the PTS and basically too late to change much aside from bug fixes. Not anymore. Now at least we have some idea. That was kind of the whole point of the program. How should they readjust what they are thinking of doing? As I said, at the meeting I told them that Sorcerers would not be happy. We hammered the reality that many groups just bring Nightblades to DPS and classes really need something interesting to offer aside from a DPS parse. ZOS had this meeting before the PTS to give them time for adjustments and see how we’d react. OK tell them. But is it necessary to toss trash over them? Give me a break. As certain as some of you think these issues are so easy, they aren’t. I do agree the healing issue goes a lot deeper than shields, and we told ZOS that. We gave them 11 pages of healer related notes just before the meeting to make sure! I do agree the Blade Cloak thing was from another meta. Stamina players cheered when that was first changed, but it just turned into another DoT (although I find the skill very useful in PvP).

I get it sounds ominous and I’d be worried that this might turn into a nerf shield and then sorcerers are even more screwed. But, we don’t know how or anything about how ZOS is going to implement these goals. Many sorcerers for years have said if they could get another defensive mechanic aside from stacking shields, they’d gladly take it. Maybe ZOS is thinking of doing this, they did say Bound Armor needed to be more worthwhile. I don’t know and neither do you. So, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse them of something they even haven’t implemented yet. Why not be productive, take advantage of this never before has happened in ESO opportunity, and give meaningful input to nudge ZOS in the way you think they ought to go? That is the whole point of this process.

Adding to this, There are ways to enact meaningful changes but it does require conversations where both parties are willing to compromise on their feedback.

For example in the Templar discord we have alot of ideas fishing around and some feedback that aren't shared across players. But all of that is connected and then condensed into main pain points.

Idk how the other discords operate but based on the goals/changes done it feels like Templars are able to successfully communicate their issues efficiently.

SoLooney

Everyone knows what is gonna happen. They see nightblades as top pve dps, instead of buffing other classes, nightblades are just gonna get nerfed whether it relates to dmg, sustain, or their executes

same thing with healers and tanks, they see certain classes exclusively in a support role, theyre just gonna nerf the crap out of them to make other classes look more "favorable"

ZOS has a horrible track record of balancing pve and pvp. esp so that one doesnt overpower in one aspect

They dont listen to the community, they say they do to keep us quiet but they do their own crap.

The only time they ever listen to the community was when people complained how op mag sorcs were or when tanks can infinite block in pvp

again, if it relates to a nerf, zos is on top of it like stink on crap.

I have no expectations, just awaiting the nerfs

SorataArisugawa

SoLooney wrote: »

Everyone knows what is gonna happen. They see nightblades as top pve dps, instead of buffing other classes, nightblades are just gonna get nerfed whether it relates to dmg, sustain, or their executes

same thing with healers and tanks, they see certain classes exclusively in a support role, theyre just gonna nerf the crap out of them to make other classes look more "favorable"

ZOS has a horrible track record of balancing pve and pvp. esp so that one doesnt overpower in one aspect

They dont listen to the community, they say they do to keep us quiet but they do their own crap.

The only time they ever listen to the community was when people complained how op mag sorcs were or when tanks can infinite block in pvp

again, if it relates to a nerf, zos is on top of it like stink on crap.

I have no expectations, just awaiting the nerfs

Why is just nerfing nightblades a bad thing? The DPS is already to high for the content... everybody is rushing it anyways. So a bit less DPS is not a problem!