[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - August 16

idk

I question where some of the information comes from. Is it from truly class experts or just complaints in the forums.

I ask because I’ve seen class reps asking about thoughts on all sorts of areas. I thought Zos wanted feedback from those in the know and understood the mechanics of the game vs cowering to mob mentality.

Volckodav

really like the program and taking into account user feedback in général, impatient to see result of this!

PS: Frost mage don't forget it!!!!

Bergzorn

There is some good stuff on the list, but quite some strange points which make me hope it's an unlucky compilation that gives a skewed view on the communication between ZOS and the representatives.

Two sorc points:

"Crystal Fragments needs to be more cost effective"

I don't remember reading a serious complaint about frags cost (you know, the skill with 50% cost reduction on proc) ever before. I'm not sure why this made it on the list.

"Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers"

This comment alone makes me not look forward to class balance changes.

casparian

Inig0 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Fallewarrior wrote: »

Mfw zos thinks shields are the reason healers are not needed.
Mfw zos thinks that duel is only used becuase of bladecloak.

But these notes didn't say either of those things.

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers
Duel Wield is an end-game PvE requirement because of the Blade Cloak skill

Here is where Fallen is getting his facial reaction from. Its literally right there. In. the. NOTES.

I know, I read them. "Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers" doesn't mean shields are the reason healers are not needed, it means they are one reason healers are not needed, which is true. "Duel Wield is an end-game PvE requirement because of the Blade Cloak skill" doesn't mean DW is only used because of blade cloak -- the notes also acknowledge that they need to look more closely into balance 2H and DW DPS.

Marabornwingrion

Sounds like huge nightblade nerf incoming

Beardimus

Bit nervous at the start, bit as you read on it covers the things I for one feel needed covering on sorcs.

Initial summary sounded likeFrag cost was the issue which ive not heard anyone mention lol, more like damage or cc back which comes later.

Sounds like wards could be getting a nerfing, hope those changes are balanced

Bit nervous on talk of overload. It's great that its a niche ultimate I think. It's different, 3rd bar needed sorcs in particular. Granted heavy attack is rarely if ever uses. But it would be a shame to totally change it.

It used to be mint for PvE too till it got nerfed. Tanking is annoying true but it takes a specific build to pull it off and Hell if you and sorcs to tank why can't they gank. Diversity

Also.... MAGDW etc. Some option away from two wands.

BUT overall can see it was a full on meeting so thanks to all Involved. ZOS have the issues, lets hope they work with reps on solutions and don't just bang out weird stuff.

Bergzorn

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sounds like huge nightblade nerf incoming

If mark gets nerfed, we need a new word since it would be a nerf and buff to NB at the same time. I suggest 'burf', but could also live with 'berf' or 'nuff'.

Checkmath

@King_Thelon
@MalagenR
Not sure if you read the whole thing, but in the notes your specific problem of cc options on magsorcs is written down two times.

About the feedback and player pool we gather the feedback from:
We work with everyone willing to help improve this game, people on the forum, ingame and the discords. If you think new players playing a class for two days are present there, then you sure are completely wrong. People caring about this game normally have more experience than a few days and those new players normally do not even know about forums and discords. There are only a few players, which know all classes by heart and therefore really good feedback is scarce. We cant only cater around end content and top score players, because they dont represent the community either, still we value their feedback the most, since they have more experience and knowledge than others.

About the statistics we presented: those are feelings about all the classes in different aspects. The same people caring about the game (probably those who care the most) have filled in those form. They are from different classes, therefore we dont valur those statistics that much, since they are filled with lots of bias. They dont replace damage parses at all, they only show feelings. If you think we do not know about what classes can pull, which number, then again you are completely wrong again. We know exactly which class performs how well in different content and we talked a lot with the devs about current raid meta.

[Edit to remove bait]

Kimundi

As a healer-only player, really happy to see the current state of endgame healer acknowledged.

It's actually pretty hard to find groups in endgame guilds because everyone wants to run with 3dds to bypass mechanics and go faster.

vFL HM is a perfect example. It's supposed to be one of the toughest 4-player fight out there, and it's actually EASIER without a healer. A role that is literally "required" by the group finder... I actually had to ask groups to bring me in to actually do it on a healer, at the expense of becoming a pure debuff/interrupting role. I enjoy getting out of my confort zone and doing something new as a healer, but I really felt useless.

Damage are either low enough to be ignored by shields or self heal, or just one shot. There would need to be a balancing on shield and self healing and reviewing regular damage to make healer actually needed.

CrazYDunm3r

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Dragonknights:
Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

I'm sure PvP'ers will be happy the reps said that

I was already quite triggered reading this I must say. No execute (no now they don't need it at all I know) and then such a change would be quite frowned upon I think (by me atleast). I must say some weird things were talked about, but also a lot of good ones!

Tasear

Mureel wrote: »

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

SO NOT what we even ever said!

1. DUNGEON MECHANICS are either minimal damage or one shot, rendering healers ineffective.
2. DPS IS OP
3. SELF HEALS are OP (in PVE)

Were the things we actually said. smh.

*Gives up and focuses on Tanking and DPS.*

This is the response after sending 7 page document on healing. The issue was talked about in depth and it's something that will have to come over time.

Princess_Ciri

these notes are just..... uninspiring.

Shields aren't why healers are no longer needed, it's the ability for DPS to do high enough damage to bypass mechanics AND heal themselves. If content had a higher damage output and/or self healing was lower, it would fix the issue. Removing shields is not gonna help.

And blade cloak is not why people use dual wield lol.

Micah_Bayer

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

these notes are just..... uninspiring.

Shields aren't why healers are no longer needed, it's the ability for DPS to do high enough damage to bypass mechanics AND heal themselves. If content had a higher damage output and/or self healing was lower, it would fix the issue. Removing shields is not gonna help.

And blade cloak is not why people use dual wield lol.

Very uninspiring

Apherius

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

Strange, I thought magNB were the main reason why healer are no needed in dungeons.
The fact that Base game dungeons are faceroll easy is another reason.
The fact that you can skip most of the mechanics simply by bursting the boss is also a reason ( see above why )

But... shields ... ?!

Moloch1514

For shields, remember the solo/duo PvE community exists and is larger than you'd think. Please don't simply nerf shields as a fix, but rather consider buffing what healers can do (maybe a revision to the Resto staff moves/morphs).

technohic

Baby steps. Small baby steps but I will take it and appreciate the effort.

NyassaV

MissBizz wrote: »

I really don't know what the other morph of combat prayer is called...

Blessing of Protection. Do people not know this?

CavalryPK

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

Link to the form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXLak8XM1xrojAcnMZ8PZmU35DUZjruoh7RC2zTSrHDQuq1Q/viewform

Hah! make space for worst PVP Magicka Class !!! I Knew it! ugh... magblades needs love in all of the departments.

over all rating is 4.11 vs the second worst mag warden at 4.70. no wonder I get so frustrated in pvp.

King_Thelon

Asking MagSorcs to "be quiet" is not constructive. They have every reason to express frustration with this class rep program based on what is written in the OP. The reasons for the frustration have been clearly articulated to you. Either stand by your product, or dont. That choice is yours and yours alone.

Glory

CavalryPK wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

Link to the form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXLak8XM1xrojAcnMZ8PZmU35DUZjruoh7RC2zTSrHDQuq1Q/viewform

Hah! make space for worst PVP Magicka Class !!! I Knew it! ugh... magblades needs love in all of the departments.

over all rating is 4.11 vs the second worst mag warden at 4.70. no wonder I get so frustrated in pvp.

This is self-reflection. Others would say that mNB has access to strong escape skills (cloak/shade), high burst potential (through ultis/burst/etc.), and good sustain (siphoning strikes).

Checkmath

@King_Thelon
First off, our job is providing feedback about pain points, not giving the devs solutions. Despite that, we insisted on giving them suggestions to bring a cc option back with crystal shard. Maybe you should read the whole text. Also for you again, the charts are not the source we make conclusions out of, because they are feelings.
About playtime, we have reps with more than 10k hours playtime on single classes and additional thousand of hours on other classes. Maybe your experience for magsorcs is big, but we cover that one with the reps easely. This makes you a valuable source for one class, if you provide constructive feedback.

CavalryPK

Glory wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

Link to the form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXLak8XM1xrojAcnMZ8PZmU35DUZjruoh7RC2zTSrHDQuq1Q/viewform

Hah! make space for worst PVP Magicka Class !!! I Knew it! ugh... magblades needs love in all of the departments.

over all rating is 4.11 vs the second worst mag warden at 4.70. no wonder I get so frustrated in pvp.

This is self-reflection. Others would say that mNB has access to strong escape skills (cloak/shade), high burst potential (through ultis/burst/etc.), and good sustain (siphoning strikes).

pffft.... The Data sais otherwise... I mean cmon.. there is no way for it to be inaccurate... right ??? lol

Mureel

Tasear wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

SO NOT what we even ever said!

1. DUNGEON MECHANICS are either minimal damage or one shot, rendering healers ineffective.
2. DPS IS OP
3. SELF HEALS are OP (in PVE)

Were the things we actually said. smh.

*Gives up and focuses on Tanking and DPS.*

This is the response after sending 7 page document on healing. The issue was talked about in depth and it's something that will have to come over time.

Still.

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

Who ever even said this? If anyone PVE based said or thinks this, they just do not know what they're even talking about. Shields are not a problem, nor is it anything to do with the reasons why healers aren't often needed for anything other than trials.

That up there is PVP-Focussed shield-stacking wahwah.

It has nothing to do with healers in PVE *at all*

In PVE Harness is used for sustain, not just as a shield, and sorcs DO have lower health when using BiS sets/food, and NEED to shield - plus, if you use empowered ward; regen.

NB Has self heal incorporated in Funnel Health (also refreshing path, but you would not use that except maybe in V CR )
Sorc Has Shield & Matriarch, if they even use that (again situational)
All melee and tank have cheap and easy vigor access.

No one in PVE ever said: We don't need a healer for V Whatever HM because people have shields.

People consistently say: Healer not needed because barely any damage or 1 shot mechanics. 3 Dps also FASTER.

This IS the end-game PVE Healing issue; when it comes to Challenging Hard Modes, etc.: Major High DPS is being used to skip mechanics, because you cannot heal through the mechanics (1 shots) anyway, that they are often trying to use DPS to skip. OR it is just plain fastter full stop, even with deaths, because DPS is OP.

TL;DR: DPS OP + Damage very light or TOO DAMN HIGH. No middle ground = Healer obsolete except in less skilled groups/non HM content.

MissBizz

NyassaV wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I really don't know what the other morph of combat prayer is called...

Blessing of Protection. Do people not know this?

Now that you mention it, yup sounds familiar. Had you put me on the spot and asked though? Wouldn't know.

Minno

NyassaV wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I really don't know what the other morph of combat prayer is called...

Blessing of Protection. Do people not know this?

I kinda though it was called Ritual of Restoration honestly lol.

CavalryPK

Minno wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I really don't know what the other morph of combat prayer is called...

Blessing of Protection. Do people not know this?

I kinda though it was called Ritual of Restoration honestly lol.

Brassing of Protraction...

Mureel

MissBizz wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I really don't know what the other morph of combat prayer is called...

Blessing of Protection. Do people not know this?

Now that you mention it, yup sounds familiar. Had you put me on the spot and asked though? Wouldn't know.

This! Never used it, therefore never see it because respecing out of combat prayer would be insane.

Quantum_V

Blessing of protection? Is that a #stamwhip morph?

GawdSB

As expecting, us DKs are bottom tier in everything but tanking. And yet all we ever see are more nerfs.

"Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics" -> This placed specifically under DK has me frightened, especially when there is no mention of improving mobility within the class as high timed burst plus stun is literally the only way we're getting anywhere on anybody in PVP.

Namarkas

I really don't get why people are so hostile here. The class reps are simply trying to help, and this is just a quick write up of their meeting. As such you shouldn't treat it as the "Update 20 Declaration" which is signed by all the important people to fulfil at their best of their abilites lol. Calling them disgraceful and I don't know what else is just... let's use the word "lame". If you have something to contribute, maybe try...manners?

Yes, the chart could have used a bit context
Overall, interesting points, however please keep tell Zenimax that shields are really not the issue why healers feel to be less important.
And for the conclusion, my personal pain point I would like to see adressed sooner than later:

(I am on 43 mins and still counting)
best regards
Namarkas