[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - August 16

Feanor

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

They’ll compensate the NBs by bringing purge back on cloak. If this is meant for PvE they could implement more oblivion damage mechanics. Wouldn’t solve any of the issues though.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

I think the change is probably going to be something like "health regen or healing is turned off while X shield is active".
Most likely the light armor shield, and even more specifically harness mag because dampen mag is harder to sustain than harness mag.

Either that, or have shields override each other to combat stacking. but might make them stronger to compensate, or throw some defensive buffs over to those specs you mention while hard nerfing the shield values (something like battlespirit shield values will now be the standard for PVE)

Just my thoughts. Though nerfs are needed sometimes, but should be with a buff elsewhere.

Dracane

Minno wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Minno @Masel92

1. I want to apologize if you felt I was attacking you personally, I was attacking what I saw as first and foremost unprofessional behavior in comments from "representatives" that have an impact on game changing decisions and were acting cavalier about that fact, at the end of the day your job sucks, because you literally get no personal value besides your love for the game and all the negative of being a punching bag for a PVP community, and every PVP community in every MMO is the same, we expect perfect balance, we are egotistical, we are flawed human beings who enjoy killing other people in a virtual game, you are trying to cater to adrenaline junkies and it's an impossible role to be happy in. I have gamed in PVP MMO's for 15+ years, I recognize how annoying I must have come off but I didn't feel like I was getting a serious response until Joy responded to the thread with his detailed output of what he actually did in the class rep meeting.

2. If I were to suggest a change to this, as an accounting professional, I would recommend you take less of a "feelings" approach and more of an "analytical" approach to your responses on the boards and to the community at large. Minno or Masel was making those graphs and as he mentioned earlier he's probably going to stop, and I think that's a good thing, putting out data like that at large to a community of adrenaline junkies is going to get everyone worked up. Especially when we all know those charts are utter BS. Who cares about the "feelings" of the community? I mean honestly, you shouldn't care about our feelings, this should be a factual and analytical approach, it was factual that Rune Cage was over performing, it's factual that Rune Cage now will not be used in Wolf Hunter and thus was over worked. I think if the community sees you sticking to the facts instead of catering to feelings they'll value your efforts much more. Showing that feelings impact your decision making process will make people think that they can't trust you to make decisions based on facts, and even though people will still come cry and complain, at least you can always uphold your reputation as being someone who responded and acted based on truth and fact.

3. I will join the Sorc discord - I shouldn't be able to sit and nit pick at you on these boards if I don't even put in the bare minimum of effort.

Thank you for responding with how you actually spoke up during these meetings and provided actionable content to the developer team. There is a part of me that thinks the Dev's created this layer simply so the community would put blame on you instead of them, wouldn't be the 1st time an MMO company has done this to forum moderator's etc.

I am not a rep, BTW.

In a gaming service community, sometimes its important to know how your customers feel or how they see themselves in relation to the service they are using. In this case, the reps are acting as a direct link between the community and ZOS with the sole purpose of distilling feedback down to digestible points.

Are the multiple layers of feedback going to lead to

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

I think the change is probably going to be something like "health regen or healing is turned off while X shield is active".
Most likely the light armor shield, and even more specifically harness mag because dampen mag is harder to sustain than harness mag.

Either that, or have shields override each other to combat stacking. but might make them stronger to compensate, or throw some defensive buffs over to those specs you mention while hard nerfing the shield values (something like battlespirit shield values will now be the standard for PVE)

Just my thoughts. Though nerfs are needed sometimes, but should be with a buff elsewhere.

If any of this is done, it is important to compensate for those changes. As you have said, those nerfs can be supported and survived, if something else is boosted. Single shields are not a viable survival mechanic in pvp anymore. You just get melted down.

So if they buff single shields and remove stacking or give some penalty to it, I am all for it.

Minno

Dracane wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Minno @Masel92

1. I want to apologize if you felt I was attacking you personally, I was attacking what I saw as first and foremost unprofessional behavior in comments from "representatives" that have an impact on game changing decisions and were acting cavalier about that fact, at the end of the day your job sucks, because you literally get no personal value besides your love for the game and all the negative of being a punching bag for a PVP community, and every PVP community in every MMO is the same, we expect perfect balance, we are egotistical, we are flawed human beings who enjoy killing other people in a virtual game, you are trying to cater to adrenaline junkies and it's an impossible role to be happy in. I have gamed in PVP MMO's for 15+ years, I recognize how annoying I must have come off but I didn't feel like I was getting a serious response until Joy responded to the thread with his detailed output of what he actually did in the class rep meeting.

2. If I were to suggest a change to this, as an accounting professional, I would recommend you take less of a "feelings" approach and more of an "analytical" approach to your responses on the boards and to the community at large. Minno or Masel was making those graphs and as he mentioned earlier he's probably going to stop, and I think that's a good thing, putting out data like that at large to a community of adrenaline junkies is going to get everyone worked up. Especially when we all know those charts are utter BS. Who cares about the "feelings" of the community? I mean honestly, you shouldn't care about our feelings, this should be a factual and analytical approach, it was factual that Rune Cage was over performing, it's factual that Rune Cage now will not be used in Wolf Hunter and thus was over worked. I think if the community sees you sticking to the facts instead of catering to feelings they'll value your efforts much more. Showing that feelings impact your decision making process will make people think that they can't trust you to make decisions based on facts, and even though people will still come cry and complain, at least you can always uphold your reputation as being someone who responded and acted based on truth and fact.

3. I will join the Sorc discord - I shouldn't be able to sit and nit pick at you on these boards if I don't even put in the bare minimum of effort.

Thank you for responding with how you actually spoke up during these meetings and provided actionable content to the developer team. There is a part of me that thinks the Dev's created this layer simply so the community would put blame on you instead of them, wouldn't be the 1st time an MMO company has done this to forum moderator's etc.

I am not a rep, BTW.

In a gaming service community, sometimes its important to know how your customers feel or how they see themselves in relation to the service they are using. In this case, the reps are acting as a direct link between the community and ZOS with the sole purpose of distilling feedback down to digestible points.

Are the multiple layers of feedback going to lead to

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

I think the change is probably going to be something like "health regen or healing is turned off while X shield is active".
Most likely the light armor shield, and even more specifically harness mag because dampen mag is harder to sustain than harness mag.

Either that, or have shields override each other to combat stacking. but might make them stronger to compensate, or throw some defensive buffs over to those specs you mention while hard nerfing the shield values (something like battlespirit shield values will now be the standard for PVE)

Just my thoughts. Though nerfs are needed sometimes, but should be with a buff elsewhere.

If any of this is done, it is important to compensate for those changes. As you have said, those nerfs can be supported and survived, if something else is boosted. Single shields are not a viable survival mechanic in pvp anymore. You just get melted down.

So if they buff single shields and remove stacking or give some penalty to it, I am all for it.

I really have a feeling that is what will happen based on that reason alone. I know some sorcs would love to not have to stack shields to survive and based on the last changes it feels like they tried to give them some additional tanking stats.

Dracane

Minno wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Minno @Masel92

1. I want to apologize if you felt I was attacking you personally, I was attacking what I saw as first and foremost unprofessional behavior in comments from "representatives" that have an impact on game changing decisions and were acting cavalier about that fact, at the end of the day your job sucks, because you literally get no personal value besides your love for the game and all the negative of being a punching bag for a PVP community, and every PVP community in every MMO is the same, we expect perfect balance, we are egotistical, we are flawed human beings who enjoy killing other people in a virtual game, you are trying to cater to adrenaline junkies and it's an impossible role to be happy in. I have gamed in PVP MMO's for 15+ years, I recognize how annoying I must have come off but I didn't feel like I was getting a serious response until Joy responded to the thread with his detailed output of what he actually did in the class rep meeting.

2. If I were to suggest a change to this, as an accounting professional, I would recommend you take less of a "feelings" approach and more of an "analytical" approach to your responses on the boards and to the community at large. Minno or Masel was making those graphs and as he mentioned earlier he's probably going to stop, and I think that's a good thing, putting out data like that at large to a community of adrenaline junkies is going to get everyone worked up. Especially when we all know those charts are utter BS. Who cares about the "feelings" of the community? I mean honestly, you shouldn't care about our feelings, this should be a factual and analytical approach, it was factual that Rune Cage was over performing, it's factual that Rune Cage now will not be used in Wolf Hunter and thus was over worked. I think if the community sees you sticking to the facts instead of catering to feelings they'll value your efforts much more. Showing that feelings impact your decision making process will make people think that they can't trust you to make decisions based on facts, and even though people will still come cry and complain, at least you can always uphold your reputation as being someone who responded and acted based on truth and fact.

3. I will join the Sorc discord - I shouldn't be able to sit and nit pick at you on these boards if I don't even put in the bare minimum of effort.

Thank you for responding with how you actually spoke up during these meetings and provided actionable content to the developer team. There is a part of me that thinks the Dev's created this layer simply so the community would put blame on you instead of them, wouldn't be the 1st time an MMO company has done this to forum moderator's etc.

I am not a rep, BTW.

In a gaming service community, sometimes its important to know how your customers feel or how they see themselves in relation to the service they are using. In this case, the reps are acting as a direct link between the community and ZOS with the sole purpose of distilling feedback down to digestible points.

Are the multiple layers of feedback going to lead to

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

I think the change is probably going to be something like "health regen or healing is turned off while X shield is active".
Most likely the light armor shield, and even more specifically harness mag because dampen mag is harder to sustain than harness mag.

Either that, or have shields override each other to combat stacking. but might make them stronger to compensate, or throw some defensive buffs over to those specs you mention while hard nerfing the shield values (something like battlespirit shield values will now be the standard for PVE)

Just my thoughts. Though nerfs are needed sometimes, but should be with a buff elsewhere.

If any of this is done, it is important to compensate for those changes. As you have said, those nerfs can be supported and survived, if something else is boosted. Single shields are not a viable survival mechanic in pvp anymore. You just get melted down.

So if they buff single shields and remove stacking or give some penalty to it, I am all for it.

I really have a feeling that is what will happen based on that reason alone. I know some sorcs would love to not have to stack shields to survive and based on the last changes it feels like they tried to give them some additional tanking stats.

I don't care so much for those small "body tankiness" changes. As they are not impactful enough and not needed. My idea is, that light armor wearers are strong, as long as they can defend themselves with their spells. As soon as that shield is gone, they get bursted easily. That is balanced to me.

My main concern with shields is, that they are so expensive because you must spam them consantly. If you allow the shield to get weakened, you risk being bursted instantly. This is why I use harness magicka, it's the only way to sustain. A good start, would be to make all shields significantly cheaper.

IZZEFlameLash

Checkmath wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

It does mean that the shields will be nerfed. Come on, you know this already. This is how ZOS works when they 'look into it'

So screwing over a very prominent play style in PvP is their plan? I do not think so. Making magsorcs, magblades, some magdens and magdks harder to play surely is not on their list.

You mean, they haven't in the past? Anything not-NB prominence has been met with huge nerf in the name of 'this will be a nerf if _____. This will be a buff if____' and even before, 'adjusted'. Be prepared for your overnerfs this round on shields. NBs btw can live off of Healing Ward combined with Cloak. What will hit you when you are untargetable and have huge indicator that allows you to avoid the person who can detect you?

Grandesdar

I can't speak for the other classes but I hope they bring something unique and viable for warden tanks, especially with frost staff back bar tanking. The bugs lowering the resists arent good enough. And when looking at the charts it just feels unfair that warden isn't good at any aspect of pve tanking while I feel like it really should be as good as a DK tank.

Unknown_Redemption

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topics we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday, with the notes compiled by the Reps themselves. In this meeting, we discussed some of the goals we have for Update 20 and beyond, making sure they're hitting on the larger pain points currently in-game. Usual caveat: This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received.

---

Beforehand, we [Class Reps] sent ZOS a bunch of documents, videos, and charts covering previous pain points, community feedback since our last meeting, observations on the PTS process and launch of update 19, and DPS/resource management comparisons. Tasear also has a list of bugs that is being kept up to date.

ZOS’s high-level goals and things actively being worked on for update 20

• Smaller number of high impact changes
• Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers
• Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)
• Duel Wield is an end-game PvE requirement because of the Blade Cloak skill
• Want to get class DPS and resource regeneration more in tune with each other

Specific Class goals for update 20
Dragonknights:

• Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
• Hardened Armor morph needs improvement
• Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Nightblades:

• Piercing Mark is too hard of a counter for stealth gameplay
• Dark Cloak Minor Protection buff is too short
• Would like to have players choose between high damage or strong healing rather than current model

Wardens:

• Better ability to control opponents in PvP
• High DPS too reliant on Bear
• More fluid rotation rather than buff spamming
• Needs a unique buff to offer groupmates

Sorcerers:

• Bound Armor needs to be more worthwhile
• The Overload skill is awkward with the class kit: it’s either a gank gimmick or not used much
• Crystal Fragments needs to be more cost effective

Templars:

• Need an ultimate for burst damage
• Agree that Templars fighting over repenting corpses is undesirable
• Make Focused Charge easier to use in melee range
• Make the Spear Wall passive more applicable

ZOS is working on making sure CC mechanics, specifically breaking free and CC immunity, are more reliable.

Goals beyond Update 20 that ZOS is currently working on:

• It is too difficult to land untargeted AoE abilities such as the Templar Puncturing Strikes ability
• They know players don’t like feeling forced to be vampires
• More diversity for Tank gearing
• Want to make healing both more valuable and rewarding for end-game group play
  • Also, aware that Battlegrounds need to do a better job with medals and showing healer contributions
• Make Streak ability work better on uneven terrain
• Improve the unique feel of each class
• Pets more predictable and easier to manage.
• They know players want the “Ice Mage” theme
• Some classes need better resource regeneration while blocking

After this, ZOS asked if any points not listed above needed emphasis. Class reps responded:

• Stamina classes, in particular Dragonknight and Sorcerer, need to get more out of their native kit and feel a better sense of identity rather than just a collection of weapon abilities.
  • Stamina diversity in DPS is also lacking as gear and weapon bars are almost identical between classes.
• Templars still need some form of pro-active defense. Sun Shield is an obvious candidate for reform as it’s not a popular skill
• Sorcerers are still going to lack options and are crammed for bar space. Rune Cage changes have come fast, and many feel they are right back to where they started with relying on Master Destro staff
  • We talked about giving an instant cast option for a lower damaging Crystal Blast morph
• Templars sharing corpses for Repentance would solve the fighting-between-allies problem, but may have undesirable PvP consequences as denying enemy templars was a legit gameplay mechanic
• High burst damage from stealth (mostly via Snipe and Overload) needed better ques (as opposed to flat nerfs). ZOS told us they were working on bugs (such as Snipe health desynchs) to help and suggested that they may look into PvP burst damage more generally
• PvE DPS diversity is a huge pain point. This lead to a more in-depth discussion.

PVE diversity. Class reps brought up the unsatisfying “meta” that some groups are just loading up on Nightblade DPS, with just one other support class (DK tank for Engulfing Flames, Templar healer for Purify and PoTL, Sorcerer off-healer for Conduits). To address this, the following points were raised:

• Each class ought to bring something to the team that is both important and meaningful
  • More specifically, each class DPS should do this to avoid the “meta” issue described above
• The class minor buffs that they are currently providing (such as minor sorcery and minor savagery) are too small. It’s better just to load up on the “BiS” DPS class
  • Wardens really lose out here. ZOS knows this and said they will give something else for Wardens to offer.
• The Nightblade class brings the highest DPS and is the only one that feels fluid. The other 4 classes often bottom out on sustain, while the Nightblade keeps doing its smooth rotation.
  • The Nightblade can do this with blue max stat food; the other classes don’t even keep up with sustain drinks
  • The other classes could devote more into resource management, but while doing so addresses the issue with their rotations, they’re further behind in DPS
  • We’d like the Nightblade to be the model for the other classes

ZOS acknowledged this and pointed out a solution may not be easy as they want to avoid the danger of making each class necessary to complete a trial.

• They want to prevent a scenario where a real-life issue caused the stamina Warden to drop raid and then they couldn’t do the trial because no other stamina Warden was available
• They indicated they are looking for a fine balance between these extremes and to chip away at the problem to get to where we’d all like to go

Other issues brought up:

• Absorb Stamina glyphs doing magicka damage went on the list to be changed.
• Why was heavy attack melee range reduced from 10 meters to 7? To make the ranges standardized and avoid problem of why basic attacks are hitting but not abilities
• Why do small daggers and range light attacks do more DPS than huge Axes and melee light attacks? Melee has a hard time Vs. opponents using Swift jewelry. ZOS says they will look more closely into Duel Wield Vs. Two-Handed damage.
• Channeled abilities and those longer than 1 second (like Templar Puncturing Strikes) miss out on Light attacks, which are a big DPS contributor.
  • ZOS said this was a valid point and will look into it.
• Healing/Tanking Diversity
  • Healers want to be more valuable and wanted. Battleground recognition.
  • Some Healing skills, in particular from the Restoration Staff, just aren’t good options (like Force Siphon and the other morph of Combat Prayer that many people don’t even know the name)
  • ZOS indicated there are looking at the discrepancy of stamina regeneration while blocking for all tanks
    • Reps indicated that while this is good, the problem goes deeper as Wardens already have good stamina sustain and DK tanks still dominate since DK tanks provide a valuable DPS buff in Engulfing Flames.
    • Some of this is perception as many people mimic what the notable guilds do.

ZOS then indicated having classes bring unique gameplay was a long-term goal for beyond Update 20.

Question and Answers:

What can we tell people?

• Pretty much anything that comes up in our meeting. ZOS is not going to share things with the Reps that they are not comfortable going public.

What about Frost Staffs?

• The heavy attack is too long for a taunt. Taunt does not provide Major fracture/breach
• ZOS wanted to know if players are switching from stamina to magicka blocking
  • At first, we did. But now most tanks preserve their magicka to cast skills
  • This unfortunately has made the Tri-Focus passive useless or a pain to constantly switch skill points in and out of it.
• Reps said Frost Staff is used mostly a back-bar tank weapon or for the easier dungeons rather than Trials.
• ZOS acknowledged this and will look into it for a future update.
• Frost staff is intended to be a tanking/control element as opposed to a DPS element.

Why does Crystal Fragment instant cast have a tiny cast-time and drops block?

• That’s a bug and ZOS is looking to fix that.

Stamina players are at a disadvantage when it comes to synergies because most of them do magic damage and scale of magicka stats.

• ZOS acknowledged the discrepancy
• This lead to a more specific discussion about synergies.
• It was agreed that certain ranged synergies such as from Inner Fire and Trapping Webs were too restrictive in who was eligible to activate them (range is too narrow, angle is too acute, only one specific target, etc.).
• Certain Nightblade heal oriented synergies are not powerful enough.
• Many of the actual synergy animations are uninspiring and don’t feel impactful (compare to say Gravity Crush or Ignite).

Some class AOE oriented Ultimates were falling out of favor. Wardens are the exception here as Permafrost is quite good.

• ZOS said they are looking to make the other morph better as most people just use it for the 8% maximum stat passive.

We came back to Sorcerers for the last topic.

• ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that.
• ZOS said they are aware that Crystal Fragments ability needs to be more efficient.
• The Reps repeated the feedback that the Crystal Blast morph also needs an update and reiterated the idea of giving sorcerers the choice between instant cast high damage and instant cast medium damage with a stun.
• Initial and early feedback for Sorcerers is that their class is walking in place with the buff-nerf cycle to Rune Prison.
  • Also, some are wondering why the other morph that wasn’t an issue, Defensive Rune, can now be dodged.

0 Notes for Werewolf.

Feanor

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topics we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday, with the notes compiled by the Reps themselves. In this meeting, we discussed some of the goals we have for Update 20 and beyond, making sure they're hitting on the larger pain points currently in-game. Usual caveat: This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received.

---

Beforehand, we [Class Reps] sent ZOS a bunch of documents, videos, and charts covering previous pain points, community feedback since our last meeting, observations on the PTS process and launch of update 19, and DPS/resource management comparisons. Tasear also has a list of bugs that is being kept up to date.

ZOS’s high-level goals and things actively being worked on for update 20

• Smaller number of high impact changes
• Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers
• Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)
• Duel Wield is an end-game PvE requirement because of the Blade Cloak skill
• Want to get class DPS and resource regeneration more in tune with each other

Specific Class goals for update 20
Dragonknights:

• Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
• Hardened Armor morph needs improvement
• Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Nightblades:

• Piercing Mark is too hard of a counter for stealth gameplay
• Dark Cloak Minor Protection buff is too short
• Would like to have players choose between high damage or strong healing rather than current model

Wardens:

• Better ability to control opponents in PvP
• High DPS too reliant on Bear
• More fluid rotation rather than buff spamming
• Needs a unique buff to offer groupmates

Sorcerers:

• Bound Armor needs to be more worthwhile
• The Overload skill is awkward with the class kit: it’s either a gank gimmick or not used much
• Crystal Fragments needs to be more cost effective

Templars:

• Need an ultimate for burst damage
• Agree that Templars fighting over repenting corpses is undesirable
• Make Focused Charge easier to use in melee range
• Make the Spear Wall passive more applicable

ZOS is working on making sure CC mechanics, specifically breaking free and CC immunity, are more reliable.

Goals beyond Update 20 that ZOS is currently working on:

• It is too difficult to land untargeted AoE abilities such as the Templar Puncturing Strikes ability
• They know players don’t like feeling forced to be vampires
• More diversity for Tank gearing
• Want to make healing both more valuable and rewarding for end-game group play
  • Also, aware that Battlegrounds need to do a better job with medals and showing healer contributions
• Make Streak ability work better on uneven terrain
• Improve the unique feel of each class
• Pets more predictable and easier to manage.
• They know players want the “Ice Mage” theme
• Some classes need better resource regeneration while blocking

After this, ZOS asked if any points not listed above needed emphasis. Class reps responded:

• Stamina classes, in particular Dragonknight and Sorcerer, need to get more out of their native kit and feel a better sense of identity rather than just a collection of weapon abilities.
  • Stamina diversity in DPS is also lacking as gear and weapon bars are almost identical between classes.
• Templars still need some form of pro-active defense. Sun Shield is an obvious candidate for reform as it’s not a popular skill
• Sorcerers are still going to lack options and are crammed for bar space. Rune Cage changes have come fast, and many feel they are right back to where they started with relying on Master Destro staff
  • We talked about giving an instant cast option for a lower damaging Crystal Blast morph
• Templars sharing corpses for Repentance would solve the fighting-between-allies problem, but may have undesirable PvP consequences as denying enemy templars was a legit gameplay mechanic
• High burst damage from stealth (mostly via Snipe and Overload) needed better ques (as opposed to flat nerfs). ZOS told us they were working on bugs (such as Snipe health desynchs) to help and suggested that they may look into PvP burst damage more generally
• PvE DPS diversity is a huge pain point. This lead to a more in-depth discussion.

PVE diversity. Class reps brought up the unsatisfying “meta” that some groups are just loading up on Nightblade DPS, with just one other support class (DK tank for Engulfing Flames, Templar healer for Purify and PoTL, Sorcerer off-healer for Conduits). To address this, the following points were raised:

• Each class ought to bring something to the team that is both important and meaningful
  • More specifically, each class DPS should do this to avoid the “meta” issue described above
• The class minor buffs that they are currently providing (such as minor sorcery and minor savagery) are too small. It’s better just to load up on the “BiS” DPS class
  • Wardens really lose out here. ZOS knows this and said they will give something else for Wardens to offer.
• The Nightblade class brings the highest DPS and is the only one that feels fluid. The other 4 classes often bottom out on sustain, while the Nightblade keeps doing its smooth rotation.
  • The Nightblade can do this with blue max stat food; the other classes don’t even keep up with sustain drinks
  • The other classes could devote more into resource management, but while doing so addresses the issue with their rotations, they’re further behind in DPS
  • We’d like the Nightblade to be the model for the other classes

ZOS acknowledged this and pointed out a solution may not be easy as they want to avoid the danger of making each class necessary to complete a trial.

• They want to prevent a scenario where a real-life issue caused the stamina Warden to drop raid and then they couldn’t do the trial because no other stamina Warden was available
• They indicated they are looking for a fine balance between these extremes and to chip away at the problem to get to where we’d all like to go

Other issues brought up:

• Absorb Stamina glyphs doing magicka damage went on the list to be changed.
• Why was heavy attack melee range reduced from 10 meters to 7? To make the ranges standardized and avoid problem of why basic attacks are hitting but not abilities
• Why do small daggers and range light attacks do more DPS than huge Axes and melee light attacks? Melee has a hard time Vs. opponents using Swift jewelry. ZOS says they will look more closely into Duel Wield Vs. Two-Handed damage.
• Channeled abilities and those longer than 1 second (like Templar Puncturing Strikes) miss out on Light attacks, which are a big DPS contributor.
  • ZOS said this was a valid point and will look into it.
• Healing/Tanking Diversity
  • Healers want to be more valuable and wanted. Battleground recognition.
  • Some Healing skills, in particular from the Restoration Staff, just aren’t good options (like Force Siphon and the other morph of Combat Prayer that many people don’t even know the name)
  • ZOS indicated there are looking at the discrepancy of stamina regeneration while blocking for all tanks
    • Reps indicated that while this is good, the problem goes deeper as Wardens already have good stamina sustain and DK tanks still dominate since DK tanks provide a valuable DPS buff in Engulfing Flames.
    • Some of this is perception as many people mimic what the notable guilds do.

ZOS then indicated having classes bring unique gameplay was a long-term goal for beyond Update 20.

Question and Answers:

What can we tell people?

• Pretty much anything that comes up in our meeting. ZOS is not going to share things with the Reps that they are not comfortable going public.

What about Frost Staffs?

• The heavy attack is too long for a taunt. Taunt does not provide Major fracture/breach
• ZOS wanted to know if players are switching from stamina to magicka blocking
  • At first, we did. But now most tanks preserve their magicka to cast skills
  • This unfortunately has made the Tri-Focus passive useless or a pain to constantly switch skill points in and out of it.
• Reps said Frost Staff is used mostly a back-bar tank weapon or for the easier dungeons rather than Trials.
• ZOS acknowledged this and will look into it for a future update.
• Frost staff is intended to be a tanking/control element as opposed to a DPS element.

Why does Crystal Fragment instant cast have a tiny cast-time and drops block?

• That’s a bug and ZOS is looking to fix that.

Stamina players are at a disadvantage when it comes to synergies because most of them do magic damage and scale of magicka stats.

• ZOS acknowledged the discrepancy
• This lead to a more specific discussion about synergies.
• It was agreed that certain ranged synergies such as from Inner Fire and Trapping Webs were too restrictive in who was eligible to activate them (range is too narrow, angle is too acute, only one specific target, etc.).
• Certain Nightblade heal oriented synergies are not powerful enough.
• Many of the actual synergy animations are uninspiring and don’t feel impactful (compare to say Gravity Crush or Ignite).

Some class AOE oriented Ultimates were falling out of favor. Wardens are the exception here as Permafrost is quite good.

• ZOS said they are looking to make the other morph better as most people just use it for the 8% maximum stat passive.

We came back to Sorcerers for the last topic.

• ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that.
• ZOS said they are aware that Crystal Fragments ability needs to be more efficient.
• The Reps repeated the feedback that the Crystal Blast morph also needs an update and reiterated the idea of giving sorcerers the choice between instant cast high damage and instant cast medium damage with a stun.
• Initial and early feedback for Sorcerers is that their class is walking in place with the buff-nerf cycle to Rune Prison.
  • Also, some are wondering why the other morph that wasn’t an issue, Defensive Rune, can now be dodged.

0 Notes for Werewolf.

You just got an entire DLC dedicated to it.

DTStormfox

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

0 Notes for Werewolf.

Because Werewolf is not a class and this topic is about class changes.

- End comment on other Forums user -

ZOS_Ginabruno wrote:

Dragonknights:

1. Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
2. Hardened Armor morph needs improvement
3. Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

1. Agree, the ability ranges are very inconsistent.
2. Hardened Armor is a useless skill in PVP because of the tiny shield it provides on magicka based DKs.
3. Power Lash does not stun, so I have no idea who came up with that idea. Anyhows, Power Lash is currently not working properly. Power Lash is 'shared' with other Magicka DKs.
   Example: If two Magicka DKs stun one enemy and one Magicka DK gets the Power Lash proc, the second Magicka DK does also. If that first Magicka DK uses the Power Lash, the second Magicka DK cannot use it anymore and hits the enemy with a normal Flame Lash attack. - end of the example.
   On the topic of moving away from high burst + stun mechanics. Next to Ferocious Leap, Power Lash is the only option for direct burst damage available on a Magicka DK in the class abilities. Taking that away makes Magicka DKs a dot only class, which is extremely easily countered with shields and hots. Yet for example Nightblades Incapacitating Strike (at 100 ultimate) still is a high burst + stun mechanic.
   
   Some comments on other abilities of the Magicka DK worth mentioning:
   Stone Giant is totally useless for burst, because the damage is just a joke and should be made more similar in terms of damage to Aurora Javelin (Templar Aedric Spear ability);
   Inhale (and morphs) has a massive time delay of 2.5 seconds. Compared to other AOE abilities from weapons and classes it is underpowered, e.g. Steel Tornado, Sap Essence and Solar Barrage which are instant damage abilities. The initial damage of Inhale (and morphs) is a joke, compared to previous mentioned abilities.
   
   Overall, from my experience, I believe that the Magicka Dragonknight currently is underperforming when compared to other magicka classes and in particular in comparison to stamina classes.
   
   A suggestion for the Google charts in Google Sheets:
   I see that you are using two separate charts for comparing stamina classes and comparing magicka classes. Do ZOS and the Class Reps also look at the balance between Stamina and Magicka classes? I ask this question because of my concerns that stamina classes are currently performing much better than magicka classes in general in PVP.

PS. I play a damage dealing Magicka DK in no-cp PVP (so don't start whining about perma-blocking, because I am not that kind of Magicka DK player.)

Czekoludek

Will ZoS acknowledge that two latest trials (vAS and vCR) exclude stam users and if so, are they gonna change it? Viable stam ranged dps builds could be really helpful here

Checkmath

DTStormfox wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

0 Notes for Werewolf.

Because Werewolf is not a class and this topic is about class changes.

- End comment on other Forums user -

ZOS_Ginabruno wrote:

Dragonknights:

1. Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
2. Hardened Armor morph needs improvement
3. Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

1. Agree, the ability ranges are very inconsistent.
2. Hardened Armor is a useless skill in PVP because of the tiny shield it provides on magicka based DKs.
3. Power Lash does not stun, so I have no idea who came up with that idea. Anyhows, Power Lash is currently not working properly. Power Lash is 'shared' with other Magicka DKs.
   Example: If two Magicka DKs stun one enemy and one Magicka DK gets the Power Lash proc, the second Magicka DK does also. If that first Magicka DK uses the Power Lash, the second Magicka DK cannot use it anymore and hits the enemy with a normal Flame Lash attack. - end of the example.
   On the topic of moving away from high burst + stun mechanics. Next to Ferocious Leap, Power Lash is the only option for direct burst damage available on a Magicka DK in the class abilities. Taking that away makes Magicka DKs a dot only class, which is extremely easily countered with shields and hots. Yet for example Nightblades Incapacitating Strike (at 100 ultimate) still is a high burst + stun mechanic.
   
   Some comments on other abilities of the Magicka DK worth mentioning:
   Stone Giant is totally useless for burst, because the damage is just a joke and should be made more similar in terms of damage to Aurora Javelin (Templar Aedric Spear ability);
   Inhale (and morphs) has a massive time delay of 2.5 seconds. Compared to other AOE abilities from weapons and classes it is underpowered, e.g. Steel Tornado, Sap Essence and Solar Barrage which are instant damage abilities. The initial damage of Inhale (and morphs) is a joke, compared to previous mentioned abilities.
   
   Overall, from my experience, I believe that the Magicka Dragonknight currently is underperforming when compared to other magicka classes and in particular in comparison to stamina classes.
   
   A suggestion for the Google charts in Google Sheets:
   I see that you are using two separate charts for comparing stamina classes and comparing magicka classes. Do ZOS and the Class Reps also look at the balance between Stamina and Magicka classes? I ask this question because of my concerns that stamina classes are currently performing much better than magicka classes in general in PVP.

PS. I play a damage dealing Magicka DK in no-cp PVP (so don't start whining about perma-blocking, because I am not that kind of Magicka DK player.)

@DTStormfox
Hey mate
Just wanted to hop in and maybe change your mind a bit about some stuff you wrote about the magicka dragonknight.
I have a lot of experience on that class too, I also played a lot of no cp PvP on various builds, permablocking, max magicka and high damage builds as well.
I will start with the power lash: Maybe you misunderstood something there, since the devs do not want to take away power lashs damage, but they have this "rule", that high burst damage abilities should not also stun enemies. Therefore I assume, that the devs will not change the damage from power lash, but will remove the stun, when using power lash. So you will keep the high burst from this ability, but you will not get a stun from it too. I am not sure yet, if this change is positive or negative, since I liked to have a stun on power lash, since it was kind of a good opportunity to stun an enemy with a damage ability while already pressuring him (only if he is not immune to stuns naturally). It was a way to secure kills, because the stun is rather unexpected and therefore can be dangerous. In the end you will keep your burst damage, so dragonknights will not be a damage over time class only.
This rule about high damage and stuns together in ability does not apply to ultimates actually. Anyway incapacitating strike stuns at 120, not at 100 ultimate points. A dragonknight has for 125 ultimate points a burst ultimate, which does aoe damage, does aoe stun, also includes a gapcloser and is a bit buggy at the moment, but still very strong.
You mentioned stone giant as a very weak skill, again when compared to other stuns it is damage wise very strong. Compared to aurora javelin, the tooltip from stone giant is only a little bit lower, still stone giant gets additional 100% damage, when it stuns, making it almost double the damage than aurora javelin and even more than double the damage than destructive reach. Stone giant also costs less than javelin and provides additional resistances. On my max magicka build (which probably is equivalent to your damage build damage wise) I kept killing enemies very fast. As an opening I sometimes used a flame staff heavy attack into stone giant, which ripped away half the health bar of enemies, allowing a flame lash and power lash proc just afterwards, which actually finished of most of my enemies.
About inhale I also want to give you some tips. You are right, the initial aoe damage of this skills is lower than for example sap essence or one tick of solar barrage, but you must not forget the heal you get from it, which is stronger on single target than sap essence and even more powerful the more enemies are around you. Also this skill is not meant to be spammed, the second aoe pulse is actually stronger than the other aoe abilities you mentioned. So for one click you get more damage and healing than other aoes in the same time, which actually makes the skill pretty strong. Now the best part of this skill is, that the second tick is delayed, allowing strong burst combos like inhale into a leap, which is absurde aoe damage plus a stun, also you can time it well with a powerlash for example. For an even better combo you could use flames of oblivion. Timing those skills nicely results in a stun and plenty of damage to rip through enemies health bars.

In my opinion magicka dragonknights are a strong class, not the best one for sure. But magicka dragonknights belong to the stronger classes and are feared in duels and open world. They make it to the top dogs in duels just behind nightblades.

mixedd

I would be more happy if bow/bow builds would be adressed, and it would be nice to make them viable for end game(vTrials).
As mostly we know that at this moment bow is more like support weapon for DW builds, even after bows counting as two piece set & summerset light attack boost. Its kind of shame that if some one sees that u use two bows you get instantly kicked from group. Would be very nice to see bow/bow optimized for endgame

Checkmath

mixedd wrote: »

I would be more happy if bow/bow builds would be adressed, and it would be nice to make them viable for end game(vTrials).
As mostly we know that at this moment bow is more like support weapon for DW builds, even after bows counting as two piece set & summerset light attack boost. Its kind of shame that if some one sees that u use two bows you get instantly kicked from group. Would be very nice to see bow/bow optimized for endgame

What exactly would you like to see to make this possible? Bow/bow only has class skills, guild skills and those from the bow. You can use caltrops, trap, poison injection, endless hail, imbue weapons as spammable, or silver lash other morph. Depending on class you also have subterranean assault and birds as awarden, spectral bow on nightblades, blazing spear and power of the light as stamplar, flames of oblivion on stamdk. There are enough skills to make up a rotation. So what exactly do you wish for? Always keep in mind just buffing damage of a weapon or a skill might impact other content heavenly

John_Falstaff

@Checkmath , I'm not the one who brought up bow/bow viability, but I do think that in fact, some buffs to the weapon in general may be in order. Bow performs great on back bar - precisely because one can keep it on backbar, reap benefits (damage skills) but without feeling the drawbacks (because rotation happens mostly on DW bar). And a lot of drawbacks, bow shares with 2H, which is less weapon damage and one less enchantment than DW. Nothing to match nirnhoned main hand (which contributes a lot to weapon damage) plus infused off hand (which procs just as readily and provides weapon damage boost). So, I feel that bow/bow shares part of issues with 2H. Definitely some opportunities for improvement.

JobooAGS

Checkmath wrote: »

mixedd wrote: »

I would be more happy if bow/bow builds would be adressed, and it would be nice to make them viable for end game(vTrials).
As mostly we know that at this moment bow is more like support weapon for DW builds, even after bows counting as two piece set & summerset light attack boost. Its kind of shame that if some one sees that u use two bows you get instantly kicked from group. Would be very nice to see bow/bow optimized for endgame

What exactly would you like to see to make this possible? Bow/bow only has class skills, guild skills and those from the bow. You can use caltrops, trap, poison injection, endless hail, imbue weapons as spammable, or silver lash other morph. Depending on class you also have subterranean assault and birds as awarden, spectral bow on nightblades, blazing spear and power of the light as stamplar, flames of oblivion on stamdk. There are enough skills to make up a rotation. So what exactly do you wish for? Always keep in mind just buffing damage of a weapon or a skill might impact other content heavenly

Blazing spear doesnt scale off of weapon damage or stam

Edit: also, to be fair, I think he means "competitive"

MooseKnuckles88

Let's see some of these long anticipated warden improvements!! The fact ZOS is even discussing warden improvements is amazing in itself since wardens are consistently overlooked.

Checkmath

JobooAGS wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

mixedd wrote: »

I would be more happy if bow/bow builds would be adressed, and it would be nice to make them viable for end game(vTrials).
As mostly we know that at this moment bow is more like support weapon for DW builds, even after bows counting as two piece set & summerset light attack boost. Its kind of shame that if some one sees that u use two bows you get instantly kicked from group. Would be very nice to see bow/bow optimized for endgame

What exactly would you like to see to make this possible? Bow/bow only has class skills, guild skills and those from the bow. You can use caltrops, trap, poison injection, endless hail, imbue weapons as spammable, or silver lash other morph. Depending on class you also have subterranean assault and birds as awarden, spectral bow on nightblades, blazing spear and power of the light as stamplar, flames of oblivion on stamdk. There are enough skills to make up a rotation. So what exactly do you wish for? Always keep in mind just buffing damage of a weapon or a skill might impact other content heavenly

Blazing spear doesnt scale off of weapon damage or stam

Edit: also, to be fair, I think he means "competitive"

@JobooAGS
You are right, blazing spear does not scale with stamina or weapon damage, but burning light does. Blazing spear provides in most cases several procs of burning light, that even on a stamina templar it is a dps win to use that skill.

LoveForElderScrolls

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknights:

• Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
  

The biggest change that could happen to dragon knights was this. I really have a hard time applying burning embers. Also fiery breath is hard to apply.

MooseKnuckles88

I'm assuming we should expect some updates about character changes soon with the recent notice about Murkmire??

Anti_Virus

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Well. I suppose, as a stamina DK... I'm, uh, grateful there are no plans to nerf emotes at least, they're my most important class-defining abilities after all. (I use /facepalm and /sadface a lot, in particular.) Baby steps. No big changes. Another six months of misery. Another six months of magicka (and magblade in particular) exclusivity in trials. Another six months of "Want Cloudrest? Go play tank or roll magblade." Another six months of sustain struggles, dull heavy attacks, DW/Bow lock-in, generic skills from weapon lines, lacking survivability. Six months of being the bottom-feeder among DPS.

Six months of rearranging flower pots on a burning house's windows and making a look as though it makes the house worth living in. I don't know what to wait for anymore, and I feel I'm waiting for entirely too long.

I was thinking about returning to the game but I give up at this point. They refuse to improve stam DK.

Anti_Virus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sooo, more magDK fixes.. I'm guessing stamDk is completely out of picture AGAIN for U20.(suprise suprise I know) Aaaaand I'm supposed to give constructive criticism.. You know guys, If only you asked for how we felt after morrowind nerfs like you're asking sorcs now only then we could have nice things. Nice things like constructive feedback. Anyways....

You know what, there is one thing I can give you feedback for: Wanna upgrade hardened armor? Get rid of the awful muddy visuals. Yeah, I'm serious , it looks that bad. Not even exaggerating. It would be a lot better without all the mud.

Also heavy armor is used over medium/light in PvP for one simple reason, we simply can not survive in those armor types. Guess who can survive though? nightblades. sorcerers. they do survive through class based mechanics, and in return, can abuse the power of these armor types, the rest can't though. The rest are forced into heavy and nerfing heavy will not change a thing. Stamblades are dominant in medium armor, their fast kit allows for fluid gameplay, cloak literally absorbing damage, combined with great passives, and suprise attack is a fast spammable allowing easy weaves between dodge rolls, meanwhile what do we get? Sadly the dizzying swing.

So TL:DR? Give us half the tools stamblades have and we will actually use medium armor. Me and many others in my PvP guild tried to make medium work countless times, and we always go back to heavy armor after a while cause instadeaths aren't fun, and having to wear 2 sustain sets just to sustain shuffle plus wings isn't fun either.medium damage isn't actually bad, having to run too much sustain makes it bad. I can actually focus on doing damage in heavy, but in medium there is no way. spam rolls or die. the choice is simple in this case.

This is partly why we asked for a stamina whip. 3 out of 5 stam classes are FORCED into dizzying swing if they want to be anything close to stamblades, and its just horrible for that task. Its unreliable, you're exposed to incoming damage, and stamblades can just 100-0 you before you can land a single d.swing, especially in medium. At least in heavy armor you can maybe recover from your mistakes, na-ah, not gonna happen in medium. Give every class a fast spammable option, some form of ''let me out'' spell like cloak or shimmering that is reliable and relatively cheap.(Wings/streak on stamina isn't cheap or reliable).

So yeah, just buffing medium/light or just nerfing heavy will result with more people playing stamblades/magsorcs, less people torturing themselves trying to play medium Dk/sorcerer.

^Dis rite hur^

IZZEFlameLash

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknights:

• Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)
  

The biggest change that could happen to dragon knights was this. I really have a hard time applying burning embers. Also fiery breath is hard to apply.

Inb4 they make everything 5m which makes hitting a stam player almost impossible unless they are bad and not running.

Ozazz

way to absolutely ruin magic sorc and magic blade, and other classes that revolve on light armor and are trying to stray from the generic patch of being a heavy armor trash can.

TheStealthDude

TheStealthDude wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Would like to have players choose between high damage or strong healing rather than current model

This worries me as a magblade player (though I am not an end-game trial player), because I thought that this WAS the current model. We already make that choice with Strife, Path, and the Siphon ultimate.

No, you don't have to make that choice. Magblades who choose Restoring over Twisting Path and who run Funnel Health over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse do top-tier DPS while putting out significant amounts of off-healing. If you want to know what it feels like to have to choose between damage and healing, roll another class.

I get that. My concern is about what they are going to do to change that.

Are they going to buff the DPS-focused morphs?

Are they going to cut out 50-100% of the damage from the healing/non-DPS morphs?

One of those changes I would be fine with, the other would make me lose a lot interest in playing my Nightblade healer.

Quoting myself here because it looks like they are doing exactly what I was afraid of with the Murkmire PTS patch notes.

I can live with the Funnel Health proposed change on the PTS notes, as there are still 2 other spammables I can use for damage dealing, but I think the Path of Darkness change is just ridiculous. I can't see myself using the healing morph even on my healer, much less in any other magblade setup.

Really disappointed with the first pass of the PTS patch notes, as I thought the goal was going to be to bring other classes up to the level of Nightblade, not to tear it apart.

ZarkingFrued

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there.

In case you haven't noticed ZOS does not balance pve and pvp separately like they should, so any shield change because of healers in pve will affect pvp shields, which could render sorc useless. I never claimed they were talking about shield nerfing because of pvp sorcerers, that's the point. Needing them because of pve healers is not the answer to pvp sorc problems, but will unintentionally wreck the class. And could you think of any shield changes possible that dont include nerfing shield size? They're already short lived.

I'm allowed to have an opinion on overload as well btw lol, any real functioning rework of overload most likely would change it entirely from being a toggle on and off light attack heavy attack ultimate to a regular ulti, more than likely getting rid of the 3rd bar as they already got rid of ulti swap on the bar. While a real sorc ulti would be nice, overload bar becomes essential in the build. Unless they plan on making more useless and pointless changes to an already useless (aside from the 3rd bar) ulti. Then whatever, continue to waste time.

"ZOS is firm in their stance that high burst damage skills combined with stuns are undesirable and is looking to get away from that." If I rune cage then frag you, that is called a combination or, combo. Clarification might be nice ZOS. Like saying "high burst damage skills THAT also stun"

High burst damage from stealth (mostly via Snipe and Overload) needed better ques (as opposed to flat nerfs). ZOS told us they were working on bugs (such as Snipe health desynchs) to help and suggested that they may look into PvP burst damage more generally
When you talk about a specific type of burst, here specifically stealth burst, then say you are gonna look into PVP burst damage more generally, it means just that. That they have intentions of looking into changing burst damage in PVP in GENERAL, not just in reference to stealth.

I think you did not read the whole notes properly.

Oh I am sry, I only was present, when the notes were written...my bad.
You can read the notes as you like, I just wanted to show, where you might misunderstand certain things and interpret things into phrases, which may have other meanings.

Just tired of all the nerfs in this game. Nerf this, nerf that. Every time someone comes to the forum with a L2P issue it causes yet another nerf or some wonky change. Now sorcs dont even use rune cage, yet again, and every time I get on here I see new cries to nerf sorc. My sorc just sits without being played at this point, and I encounter other classes regularly that have broken builds that take no damage but still have huge burst. It just shows a broken game that keeps getting bandaids, which is disappointing since I honestly enjoy this game when not encountering broken junk. At least they're "looking at" the absolutely broken snipe ability. Tired of multiple snipers hitting me at the same time by some wahoo

Checkmath wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

So the answer to pvp sorcs is a possible nerf to harness magicka and conjured wards because of pve healers??? and looking into taking away sorc overload (skill bar), as well as nerfing burst in general in pvp? GOODBYE SORC, RIP. Sorc IS burst and stun. Not to mention how little I desire seeing pvp without decent burst, no one wants to see 3 hour long 1v1 fights ZOS. Horrible. AND WHY ARE WE STILL NOT TALKING ABOUT UPPERCUT IN PVP? CAST TIME IS TO LONG, AND LITERALLY WALKING INTO THE PLAYER CASTING IT KEEPS IT FROM FIRING. All this makes me wanna get ahead of the utter destruction of this game and start playing something else before it goes to crap. This comment wont even be read.

@ZarkingFrued
I think you did not read the whole notes properly.
They are looking into shields in PvE, because they want to make healers somehow more important. This does not mean that damage shields will get nerfed, nor was there any word if nerfing shields because of PvP sorcerers. We do not know, what they planned with damage shields, but just assuming its a shield size nerf is wrong.
There also was nothing written about the overload bar of sorcs, but to change overload as ultimate in something more useful for the class rather than those bursty light attacks. Nobody said, that the third skill bar will be even touched.
Also there was nothing written about making magicka sorcerer less bursty, that comment you probably are referring to, was about skills, which provide burst damage and a stun together, not at all about bursty skills like in the sorcerers toolkit. Also the comment about general burst in PvP referred to ganking and burst combos from stealth. Additionally the representatives mentioned, that skills with a cast time need improvements, it is written there too.

So, you were right, a simple shield size nerf would have been much better than the utter destruction of mag sorc we all saw in the patch notes today. Good job.

Also, guess what?? That 3rd bar was more than touched sport.
Additionally I'm seeing nothing about fixing the problem with landing dizzy swing or any other cast time abilities.
You say you were there for the conversation, but did you pay attention? If so, I only hope you protested to seeing mag sorc wiped out as a class.

MalagenR

@Joy_Division @Minno - remember when I posted a freak out about the "balancing" notes they provided and everyone told us to relax?

Member? I Member.

Minno

MalagenR wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Minno - remember when I posted a freak out about the "balancing" notes they provided and everyone told us to relax?

Member? I Member.

How were we supposed to know they were going to have a cast time chubby again?!

Jokes aside, it's only first week of PTS. Go, test, make videos/screenshots and leave the feedback.

This patch is another healer/tank adjustment PVE patch with small/major PVP implications.

Haashhtaag

Minno wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Minno - remember when I posted a freak out about the "balancing" notes they provided and everyone told us to relax?

Member? I Member.

How were we supposed to know they were going to have a cast time chubby again?!

Jokes aside, it's only first week of PTS. Go, test, make videos/screenshots and leave the feedback.

This patch is another healer/tank adjustment PVE patch with small/major PVP implications.

Yeah well those adjustments hurt multiple classes good job. Go carry some more water and let me know a healer that can heal a 1 shot mechanic.

John_Falstaff

@Haashhtaag , your trolling is simply superb - bumping the old notes thread when everyone's waiting for new notes to be posted any minute now. ^^ I bet a lot of people jumped just now. ^^