The way you obtain Welkynar motif chapters is a terrible joke!

Carbonised

Vet trials already come with a plethora of rewards. Perfect gear vs mundane gear, exclusive titles, trial skin, gold jewelry to decon for temper parts, large quantities of undaunted plunder and 10k at the end boss.

There was no need to virtually lock this motif behind vet trials. A large amount of people will never be even close to vet'ing CR, and it even requires you to finish nCR+3 10 times to just get enough fragments for a single page ...

The vet trial raiders continually moan and whine for more rewards, and ZOS keeps handing it to them. They get all the above exclusively, at least the motif could have been more easily accessible for nCR.

But the normal vs vet discussion is moot anyway, we all know they made it a pain for mostly everyone to get this motif, so they can sell it in the store the same day it goes live. That seems to be the precedence set with Scalecaller and Fang Lair now.

And as long as vet dungeoneers and trial raiders try to price gouge from the associated motifs, I know I'd rather leave my money in the Crown store than be bled dry from overpriced motif pages.

However way we put it, it's still a very negative development, and I wonder if ZOS even cared about the very public and large thread I made a couple months ago about their survey of the Crown store, where manyh of us were very negative of continually being pushed and coerced into the Crown store for rewards that should be obtainable in the game instead. Well this move is exactly one of those things.

Violynne

themaddaedra wrote: »

What kind of grind is that? Who from ZOS in their bright mind came up with this idea?

The motif is also going to be in the Crown store.

It doesn't take much to connect the dots.

Ironic, considering this exact same method is used by vendors in the game.

Before people start pointing fingers about greed, just remember the prices are set because people are impatient.

While people will complain about this grind, just as they did with JC, they'll do it because damn it, they will not spend that much money for a fake book in the Crown store.

Complaining will change nothing as long as these people continue to ruin the game.

Take a look at the future from people in this thread.

Yep. It's no longer about a working game. It's about overpriced cosmetics.

Tan9oSuccka

Enslaved wrote: »

Set looks ugly, if its based on those dreadful overgrown pigeon mongrels anyways. And with that lvl of grind, I simply dont even want it.

I thought the Altmer already had an easily obtained blue motif?

code65536

Frankly, the fragment system is great, if you consider the alternative.

Look, the alternative is for them to make the motifs drop with a diceroll.

For the dungeon motifs, you get something like a 10% chance for a motif in normal and a 100% chance for a motif in vet HM.

Instead of doing 10% chance at a motif in nCR +3 and a 100% chance at a motif in vCR +3, they are taking out that RNG chance (good for them!) and replacing it with fragments. 1/10th of a motif in normal. Enough pieces for a full motif in vet HM. It's the same thing as the dungeon motifs, except using fragments instead of RNG. This is a good thing!

The part that I don't like is gatekeeping the binding agent behind coffers. The coffer system is idiotic and I want to see it eliminated, as it punishes people who raid on just one or two characters (which is very common, since you have a very specific role that you need to play in your group, if you're tackling difficult content). If they pull the binding agent out of the coffers and just throw it into the lobby merchant for a nominal gold cost (not 10K like for glass, but 1K would be fair), then I'd say this system is perfect.

I mean, it could be worse. It could be like the Maw motif. I've cleared vMoL well over a dozen times this year and have gotten just one chapter. There was no accommodation for a higher chance at higher difficulty. No accommodation for people who run the trial a lot but don't get coffers because it's on just one character. That system is a lot worse. Hell, even the current dungeon motif system is worse, because if you're not doing vet HM, it's just RNG whether you get a motif or not. At least with fragments, you know exactly how many motifs you'll get out of X number of runs.

Repeat after me: This new fragment system is an IMPROVEMENT over the old system of RNG dicerolls. (except for the binding agent nonsense--that part is idiotic)

lillybit

I don't mind that there's content that's effectively out of the reach of most people. I think it's a good thing for the game.

But there's a massive amount of crafters who care about things like having all the motifs and they quite often aren't the players who are doing vet trials.

I don't see the logic of making a motif realistically unobtainable. It'll be so hard to get that the prices will always be high. And worse still, the style mat will be just as hard to get so even buying it will still mean you can't craft it without paying even more.

There's already the skin to reward elite players, there was no need to make the motif so difficult. It really does just seem like it's just to force people to the crown store to buy and to actually craft it.

jlmurra2

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

Looks like I will officially no longer give af about collecting motifs.

Way to turn a terrible grind into an even worse one.

Fortunately then, the style seems to be undesired by most players. I personally think it looks silly.

Carbonised

code65536 wrote: »

Repeat after me: This new fragment system is an IMPROVEMENT over the old system of RNG dicerolls. (except for the binding agent nonsense--that part is idiotic)

Sure, if you have no problem doing vCR+3 regularly, or even just +1 or 02.

For anyone not able to find a group or guild for that very hard content, it's a clear and obvious nerf compared to other trial motifs. Not only do you have to do nCR+3, you have to do it 10 times, every week, until you get the motifs. How many times do you think someone will do that until they become utterly nauseated with it?

Ajaxduo

Disgusting.

Faulgor

As far as I can see, all items are tradeable. While it would be better if normal mode dropped fragments as well, the system as a whole is not as terrible as, say, the one for BG outfits. That one will actually take you forever and you can't buy with gold.

Honestly I'm mostly confused about their motif release schedule. Why are we getting Welkynar now when we don't even have the HOF motif yet, a style added over a year ago? What about Divine Prosecution?

Carbonised

Faulgor wrote: »

As far as I can see, all items are tradeable. While it would be better if normal mode dropped fragments as well, the system as a whole is not as terrible as, say, the one for BG outfits. That one will actually take you forever and you can't buy with gold.

Honestly I'm mostly confused about their motif release schedule. Why are we getting Welkynar now when we don't even have the HOF motif yet, a style added over a year ago? What about Divine Prosecution?

Divine prosecution was a collector's edition outfit only. It won't come in the game other than that.

HoF I agree on, it hasn't been prioritised for some reason.

Sure, they're tradeable, and if the trial guilds price them fairly (lol) I will buy them too. Fang lair chest piece cost 500k for the longest time, and all the motif pages plus SC generall sat at 100k for a good long time too.
When someone know they have pretty much a monopoly of the latest popular thing, they tend to take their cut and then some. I have no illusions that Welkynar will be any different, hence why it is more attractive to me to circumvent a monopoly and simply go to the store.

RANKK7

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

Looks like I will officially no longer give af about collecting motifs.

Way to turn a terrible grind into an even worse one.

Same.

Recon4thCav

Elder Scrolls of Bad Ideas

ookami007

I wish I could bring myself to care... But this game is getting to be more and more of a bore... Who wants to spend their precious free time in endless farming...

valeriiya

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its basically glass, except that instead of running crafting writs, you have to run some of the game's hardest content.

Yes, making this a punishing grind is certain to turn out well - for ZOS when people eventually buy it from the Crown Store.

You're so right, everything to the Crown Store to generate more $$$

code65536

Carbonised wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Repeat after me: This new fragment system is an IMPROVEMENT over the old system of RNG dicerolls. (except for the binding agent nonsense--that part is idiotic)

Sure, if you have no problem doing vCR+3 regularly, or even just +1 or 02.

For anyone not able to find a group or guild for that very hard content, it's a clear and obvious nerf compared to other trial motifs. Not only do you have to do nCR+3, you have to do it 10 times, every week, until you get the motifs. How many times do you think someone will do that until they become utterly nauseated with it?

I've seen PUG groups clear nCR +3 in 15 minutes. 10 runs will take less than 3 hours. How many hours of chest farming does it take to get one Buoyant chapter? But unlike Buoyant, there will be people who can get it faster with higher difficulties, and more people farming it doesn't lower the drop rate (since with Buoyant, you have the problem of competing for chests with others). Okay, Buoyant is probably a really bad benchmark to compare against, but it's worth seeing that it's much better than that (so at least it won't be the worst that ZOS has ever done, for whatever that's worth).

1/10 fragments is equivalent to a 10% RNG chance at a motif (except without the RNG). From what I've seen, that's comparable to the dungeon motifs. So what about groups that can't complete the dungeons in vet? They have to farm those dungeons, on average, 10 times to get a chapter. This is no different.

Or the Maw motif. That is gated to a RNG chance (a very low RNG chance, I might add--I wouldn't be surprised if that's 10% too) and you only get that 10% RNG chance once per week. The only thing making the current Maw motif drop somewhat tolerable is the fact that many people already completed it back when it dropped like candy.

Yes, this motif will be grindy. And no, I don't like that. But this thread is a comedy of hyperbole.

FACTS:

• Welkynar will be easier to obtain than all of the other trials motifs. It's true that Maw and Celestial market prices are tempered by the glut of old drops, but if you ignore that and consider only new drops, they are actually harder to acquire, as they're both small RNG chances gated behind coffers. I run a lot of trials. I know how damn few of those chapters I've gotten ever since they "adjusted" the drop rates.
• They are scrapping RNG chance in favor of fragment predictability. Instead of jealously looking at the PUG who got lucky and got two motifs in a row while you still have none after 20 runs, now you will know exactly how many runs it'll take for you (and that PUG) to get a motif.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

valeriiya wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its basically glass, except that instead of running crafting writs, you have to run some of the game's hardest content.

Yes, making this a punishing grind is certain to turn out well - for ZOS when people eventually buy it from the Crown Store.

You're so right, everything to the Crown Store to generate more $$$

Oh, it's coming to Crown Store. Been DataMined already.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424291/data-mining-new-crown-store-items-from-4-1-0/p1
So sad that CS is more and more important to Zo$ than the actual game IMO...

No, Welkynar will not be easier to get. Who remembers the Glass Motif grind? Yes, the fragment drop is gonna be predictable as stated, but after getting 10 frags, buy the binder agent, and the page it produces is RNG! You might get legs 3 times in a row after binding fragments.
No, the whole idea for the Welkynar motif is just crazy IMO.
No huzzahs for Zo$ today....

Kuramas9tails

I think this is completely unnecessary. Doing hard content already rewards with skins, titles, perfected weapons and more. THAT MAKES SENSE. What does NOT make sense is that motifs are collected by CRAFTERS. It makes zero sense to make it this difficult to get a crafting related motif by not doing something that is related to crafting like glass was. I understood glass. That method makes a hell of a lot more sense then this. Most crafters join normal trials for motif chapters too and to see how difficult this will make it for crafters on normal, ZOS just pooed in crafters faces for this motif.

It's like whoever came up with this idea and supported it don't know this.

code65536

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I think this is completely unnecessary. Doing hard content already rewards with skins, titles, perfected weapons and more. THAT MAKES SENSE. What does NOT make sense is that motifs are collected by CRAFTERS. It makes zero sense to make it this difficult to get a crafting related motif by not doing something that is related to crafting like glass was. I understood glass. That method makes a hell of a lot more sense then this. Most crafters join normal trials for motif chapters too and to see how difficult this will make it for crafters on normal, ZOS just *** in crafters faces for this motif.

It's like whoever came up with this idea and supported it don't know this.

Hmpf. And how in bloody blazes do crafters get Akaviri? Militant Ordinator? Silken Ring? Etc.

It's good to have motifs that are gated behind different content. You're a crafter and you want Militant Ordinator? How about you got craft a bunch of immovability potions, sell that to the PvP crowd, and then use that gold to buy Militant Ordinator chapters from the PvP crowd?

You are a crafter and you Fang Lair or Welkynar? Toss some of that gold that you make from farming writs (and it is a lot of gold that crafters have; I know because I farm writs) at the endgame PvE players so that they, in turn, can afford to buy spell pots from crafters.

Specialization and exchange. That's how an economy works. You don't ask farmers to build computers, and you don't expect computer makers to milk cows. Why should this be any different?

Mystrius_Archaion

It's beyond insane.

They jumped the shark....

Kuramas9tails

code65536 wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I think this is completely unnecessary. Doing hard content already rewards with skins, titles, perfected weapons and more. THAT MAKES SENSE. What does NOT make sense is that motifs are collected by CRAFTERS. It makes zero sense to make it this difficult to get a crafting related motif by not doing something that is related to crafting like glass was. I understood glass. That method makes a hell of a lot more sense then this. Most crafters join normal trials for motif chapters too and to see how difficult this will make it for crafters on normal, ZOS just *** in crafters faces for this motif.

It's like whoever came up with this idea and supported it don't know this.

Hmpf. And how in bloody blazes do crafters get Akaviri? Militant Ordinator? Silken Ring? Etc.

It's good to have motifs that are gated behind different content. You're a crafter and you want Militant Ordinator? How about you got craft a bunch of immovability potions, sell that to the PvP crowd, and then use that gold to buy Militant Ordinator chapters from the PvP crowd?

You are a crafter and you Fang Lair or Welkynar? Toss some of that gold that you make from farming writs (and it is a lot of gold that crafters have; I know because I farm writs) at the endgame PvE players so that they, in turn, can afford to buy spell pots from crafters.

Specialization and exchange. That's how an economy works. You don't ask farmers to build computers, and you don't expect computer makers to milk cows. Why should this be any different?

That is for ONE motif chapter. Not fragments. I got a LOT of my DLC dungeon motifs just farming normal with my boyfriend. I almost got a drop every 2 or 3 runs running normal Falk, Bloodroot, Cradle and Mazz. It is a lot easier to run a vet DLC dungeon than a 12 man trial. Most pugs can't even complete VHRC. Add VCR to that?

And Militant and Akiviri are NOT hard to get. The AP:G ratio is very generous. There's a lot more AP gain than there is getting fragments once a week. Fragments. Not pages. You can easy spend day in Cyrodiil and get enough to get two motifs. Again, not fragments which you get once a week. And it's not hard for a crafter to join a zerg to get AP but it would be next to impossible for a crafter to join a VCR run.

It would have made sense that ZOS did what they did with Bouyant. Put those motifs in chests in Summerset. Or both. Make it obtainable through trial and chests in fragments.

RANKK7

code65536 wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I think this is completely unnecessary. Doing hard content already rewards with skins, titles, perfected weapons and more. THAT MAKES SENSE. What does NOT make sense is that motifs are collected by CRAFTERS. It makes zero sense to make it this difficult to get a crafting related motif by not doing something that is related to crafting like glass was. I understood glass. That method makes a hell of a lot more sense then this. Most crafters join normal trials for motif chapters too and to see how difficult this will make it for crafters on normal, ZOS just *** in crafters faces for this motif.

It's like whoever came up with this idea and supported it don't know this.

Hmpf. And how in bloody blazes do crafters get Akaviri? Militant Ordinator? Silken Ring? Etc.

It's good to have motifs that are gated behind different content. You're a crafter and you want Militant Ordinator? How about you got craft a bunch of immovability potions, sell that to the PvP crowd, and then use that gold to buy Militant Ordinator chapters from the PvP crowd?

You are a crafter and you Fang Lair or Welkynar? Toss some of that gold that you make from farming writs (and it is a lot of gold that crafters have; I know because I farm writs) at the endgame PvE players so that they, in turn, can afford to buy spell pots from crafters like you.

Trade and exchange. That's how an economy works. You don't ask farmers to build computers, and you don't expect computer makers to milk cows. Why should this be any different?

Let's not play dumb now, Akaviri and Militant are obtainable in different easier ways, can be directly purchased for AP or indirectly for gold, prices are not insane (even for Militant which was not included in any festival rewards) because many people can pvp and gain AP, even crafters or not so expert pvp players. While people doing that kind of content trials are a ridicoulus percent of player base.

Silken ring is a big lol, cannot compare doing a dlc dungeon with a vet trial for so many reasons you don't need anyone to explain them to you.

Let's say this thing is utmost convenient for you and the very tiny percent of the playerbase who cover that kind of content on a daily basis.

That small portion definitely should try to understand the absolute majority can't be happy at all, and @ZOS too should.

Faulgor

Carbonised wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

As far as I can see, all items are tradeable. While it would be better if normal mode dropped fragments as well, the system as a whole is not as terrible as, say, the one for BG outfits. That one will actually take you forever and you can't buy with gold.

Honestly I'm mostly confused about their motif release schedule. Why are we getting Welkynar now when we don't even have the HOF motif yet, a style added over a year ago? What about Divine Prosecution?

Divine prosecution was a collector's edition outfit only. It won't come in the game other than that.

That would be terrible, as it wasn't communicated like that and has no precedence. Morag Tong was a collector's edition style for Morrowind, but it was still available as a motif.

G1Countdown

Disturbing.

Zos, I hope you are listening to your community here. You can get the pulse on how your community feels about this. You still have time to rectify this before more are disenchanted.

Surak73

Oh well, I already have my Style Master title, I can happily let this motif where it is...

code65536

RANKK7 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I think this is completely unnecessary. Doing hard content already rewards with skins, titles, perfected weapons and more. THAT MAKES SENSE. What does NOT make sense is that motifs are collected by CRAFTERS. It makes zero sense to make it this difficult to get a crafting related motif by not doing something that is related to crafting like glass was. I understood glass. That method makes a hell of a lot more sense then this. Most crafters join normal trials for motif chapters too and to see how difficult this will make it for crafters on normal, ZOS just *** in crafters faces for this motif.

It's like whoever came up with this idea and supported it don't know this.

Hmpf. And how in bloody blazes do crafters get Akaviri? Militant Ordinator? Silken Ring? Etc.

It's good to have motifs that are gated behind different content. You're a crafter and you want Militant Ordinator? How about you got craft a bunch of immovability potions, sell that to the PvP crowd, and then use that gold to buy Militant Ordinator chapters from the PvP crowd?

You are a crafter and you Fang Lair or Welkynar? Toss some of that gold that you make from farming writs (and it is a lot of gold that crafters have; I know because I farm writs) at the endgame PvE players so that they, in turn, can afford to buy spell pots from crafters like you.

Trade and exchange. That's how an economy works. You don't ask farmers to build computers, and you don't expect computer makers to milk cows. Why should this be any different?

Let's not play dumb now, Akaviri and Militant are obtainable in different easier ways, can be directly purchased for AP or indirectly for gold, prices are not insane (even for Militant which was not included in any festival rewards) because many people can pvp and gain AP, even crafters or not so expert pvp players. While people doing that kind of content trials are a ridicoulus percent of player base.

Silken ring is a big lol, cannot compare doing a dlc dungeon with a vet trial for so many reasons you don't need anyone to explain them to you.

Let's say this thing is utmost convenient for you and the very tiny percent of the playerbase who cover that kind of content on a daily basis.

That small portion definitely should try to understand the absolute majority can't be happy at all, and @ZOS too should.

Would you be happier if, instead of fragments, ZOS said, "rare chance to drop in nCR +3, with higher chances at the higher difficulty levels, and guaranteed at the highest difficulty level"?

Because that's what they've done in the past.

And the "rare chance to drop" is pretty common for all the other motifs. And nCR is pretty accessible, too. I see it in zone chat often enough, at least.

The way I see it, ZOS finally did away with the RNG, replaced "rare chance" with a hard number that you can see, and now that people can no longer cling to the hope of getting lucky, they are suddenly up in arms about it. But where's your outrage at the Maw motif? Welkynar will be easier and faster to get than that one, as far as drops are concerned.

Svenja

code65536 wrote: »

The way I see it, ZOS finally did away with the RNG, replaced "rare chance" with a hard number that you can see, and now that people can no longer cling to the hope of getting lucky, they are suddenly up in arms about it. But where's your outrage at the Maw motif? Welkynar will be easier and faster to get than that one, as far as drops are concerned.

THIS!

I take this fragment farming method over the current trials motif collecting method any day.

A while ago (I think it was with dragon Bones) they changed the weekly reward boxes from trials, so those no longer contain a guaranteed motif page, but only have a "chance" to drop a page.
I am running vMoL weekly, and since that patch I got two pages. Two. I rather get fragments I can use later than nothing at all.

Ashtaris

code65536 wrote: »

Frankly, the fragment system is great, if you consider the alternative.

Look, the alternative is for them to make the motifs drop with a diceroll.

For the dungeon motifs, you get something like a 10% chance for a motif in normal and a 100% chance for a motif in vet HM.

Instead of doing 10% chance at a motif in nCR +3 and a 100% chance at a motif in vCR +3, they are taking out that RNG chance (good for them!) and replacing it with fragments. 1/10th of a motif in normal. Enough pieces for a full motif in vet HM. It's the same thing as the dungeon motifs, except using fragments instead of RNG. This is a good thing!

The part that I don't like is gatekeeping the binding agent behind coffers. The coffer system is idiotic and I want to see it eliminated, as it punishes people who raid on just one or two characters (which is very common, since you have a very specific role that you need to play in your group, if you're tackling difficult content). If they pull the binding agent out of the coffers and just throw it into the lobby merchant for a nominal gold cost (not 10K like for glass, but 1K would be fair), then I'd say this system is perfect.

I mean, it could be worse. It could be like the Maw motif. I've cleared vMoL well over a dozen times this year and have gotten just one chapter. There was no accommodation for a higher chance at higher difficulty. No accommodation for people who run the trial a lot but don't get coffers because it's on just one character. That system is a lot worse. Hell, even the current dungeon motif system is worse, because if you're not doing vet HM, it's just RNG whether you get a motif or not. At least with fragments, you know exactly how many motifs you'll get out of X number of runs.

Repeat after me: This new fragment system is an IMPROVEMENT over the old system of RNG dicerolls. (except for the binding agent nonsense--that part is idiotic)

No, it’s not a good thing. We all know how well the Glass Motif system worked. And besides, the only people this will benefit is the roughtly 5% if not less of the entire ESO population who can do Vet CR+3 HM, not the 95% of the rest of us. The only reason they did this was to sell it on the Crown Store, and pretend they offered it to us “In Game”.

Nestor

code65536 wrote: »

Instead of doing 10% chance at a motif in nCR +3 and a 100% chance at a motif in vCR +3, they are taking out that RNG chance (good for them!) and replacing it

With RNG in a different place. You have no control over what chapter you will get once you use the binding agent.

Svenja

Nestor wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Instead of doing 10% chance at a motif in nCR +3 and a 100% chance at a motif in vCR +3, they are taking out that RNG chance (good for them!) and replacing it

With RNG in a different place. You have no control over what chapter you will get once you use the binding agent.

Well, getting a guaranteed motif page in a dungeon or from a weekly trials container doesn't let you choose which page you get either.
So what you guys want is a "motif page merchant" where you can simply choose which page you get?

Sygil05

As others have pointed out, this is just an obvious mechanism to push completionists to purchase the motif from the Crown store to goose their revenue right after the DLC hits. The ridiculous grind they're imposing to get this motif will force this, and then they can increase the drop rate for everyone else in a month or two.