How do we encourage tanking?

Spacemonkey

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

BlanketFort

As many have said, many are afraid of tanking because of the responsibility, and the the possible back-lash if you make a mistake. A bad tank can easily wipe a PuG and it isn't a good feeling when it happens.

I started out as a DD. After over a year, I created an alt to heal for the sole purpose of overcoming DPS queue so I can farm the gear that I needed. Turned out I enjoyed healing so much, that my DD got left in the dust.

A couple of months later, I decided to try tanking. Created an alt, levelled and geared it up,.. and i enjoyed it even more than healing, so I turned my main (magDK) into a tank and spent the crowns on a race change. I now only have have a healer and a tank and have developed a weird addiction to PuGging and proudly wear the Volunteer title

This was surprising for me because I have never played a tank before, I've always been afraid of the role and the pressure that comes with it. But after having seen the healing side, experience how it works, and met friends with whom I can "safely" practice tanking with, I felt much more comfortable to don the crown, now that I know all the mechanics of dungeons and kind of have an idea as to how a 'good' tank performs from observing the ones I've had the pleasure of playing with.

I'm not a great Tank, but I would like to someday be as good as the great ones I've seen. I can't really express how much I love tanking, I just wish I had tried it much earlier.

I've recently tanked all craglorn normal trials, even though I was really really afraid and didnt think i was ready. The team was great and we breezed through it, great experience overall and i was relieved to not have caused a wipe. To those who have thought about tanking but are too afraid: find some nice people to practice vet dungeons with, try it out, and it might surprise you

PS4_ZeColmeia

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.
Edit: I know this isn't the best idea, but it's an example of what type of discussion is expected in this thread.

The issue I see is that there isn't enough reason to have an active taunt on enough content. Also, having taunt's doesn't always have a benefit for the group. Realistically that is what a tank is, a taunt and a way not to die with all of the attention. I still advocate that roles should require things.

DPS: no restrictions

Healer: has a "heal other" heal skill or set equipped (like redistributor or troll king)

Tank: a taunt skill or set equipped

I think that requirement will fix 90% of the random grouping issues. I personally group as a healer just to remove issues with a bad healer.

To encourage the roles i think you do it by putting the random group buff to activate off of specific skills or situations

DPS: flat individual dps buff (damage done, spell/weapon damage, those type of things) all the time

Healer: small group healing recieved buff when healed by healer for 10s

Tank: small group armor buff when taunt used for 10s

This basically encourages people to do the role as they are more beneficial when doing their role. You should update the text on the role selection and random group finder that your buffs are dependent on your role and how you get them. This would help reinforce their role by explaining by doing their role they get buffs. Then by not letting people queue as a role without meeting the requirement you force people to look at the role they are selecting and why they can't queue.

This doesn't make sure you get quality healers or tanks, but you ensure they meet the requirement and that they understand what it takes to meet the minimum standards for that role. Pretty similar to the tips in the death recap.

paulsimonps

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Simplest way to encourage Tanking would be a reliable, effective AOE Aggro-grabber.

That tanking in this game relies on a single target, short duration, low aggro attack shows that the DEVs have no real understanding of how an MMORPG is supposed to work.

Zenimax have long clung to the mantra of doing things differently just for the sake of being different, problem is "being different" is only ever successful if "being different" works at least as well as that which you are trying to be different from.

Zenimax's problem is that in a lot of cases "being different" in ESO simply doesn't work as well established alternatives.

Zenimax's saving grace is that when they do get "being different" right it is usually a stellar success.

All The Best

No sir, you have no understanding how tanking in this game works. Stop asking for AoE taunts, its not needed, its lazy tanking and thank god the devs agree. Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

HAVE YOU TRIED TANKING FOR VET BLOODROOT FORGE? Alright, then you don't understand the trouble of being a tank in new dungeons. Seriously, it's not being lazy, it's out of necessity. Having to plug volcano holes, micromanage mobs with single target taunt, WHILE A BOSS IS BLOCKING VIEW, seeing through all the bright colors flying across the map, and remembering to run off to the side during the boss explosion so you're not 1 short, in addition to managing resources... Seriously tanks need quality of life improvements, only the most skilled players can successfully tank in newer/more updated vet dungeons. Look at dungeon queues, always in need of a tank because they're not easy to play both in leveling and in dungeons. Really tired of this argument.

I have done Veteran Bloodroot Forge many times, and its entirely doable without an AoE Taunt, its not needed. Plugging the volcano holes and micromanage mobs, only boss that fits that fits that description is the Minotaur on the island. He has a few Shalks and the stone Atronachs. One or two Shalks at a time, you can't range taunt that and deal with the boss? And really the Shalks don't even have to be taunted, just quickly chained in or rooted and they die by the AoEs. This is not something difficult.

You say only the most skilled players can successfully tank the DLC dungeons, but I have seen many moderately skilled players complete it. Its a learning process, I didn't complete Bloodroot my first time and my second time which I completed was a really shaky run but it gets better over time. Again though, like many have said, you can't carry dungeons like that as a Tank, and like we all know most people do not PUG DLC dungeons for very obvious reasons. They are a lot more difficult and rightfully so, having all 4 man content be a walk in the park would not be good for the game, but as always as time goes more and more will sadly be able to do it without a tank cause of how the design of 4 man content currently is.

An AoE Taunt would do nothing to change this, it would just make Tanking less engaging than it already is, most comments so far have been talking about how boring and passive they think tanking is, an AoE taunt would be the opposite of what we would need to fix that.

Juju_beans

aoe taunt won't do anything. Many other MMO's face the same quandary and some of their tank classes do have aoe taunt.

The problem is that within pugs there are people that think they can just dps down the boss and don't need anyone to mitigate the aggro.

And it's become all too common in many games. When did it start ? It wasn't always like this from what I recall years ago.

ol_BANK_lo

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.
Edit: I know this isn't the best idea, but it's an example of what type of discussion is expected in this thread.

We do we need to "encourage" tanking? People play certain characters because they like them. I enjoy tanking, and so one of my toons is a tank. I also have 5 dps, but no healer...cuz I hate healing. Not sure why we need to encourage people to play anything.... You only have 1 or maybe 2 tanks in a group vs 8 dps. Ratio is about right.

paulsimonps

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

josiahva

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I feel that - how to say, 'normal'? - tanking is far too passive. It's taunt this (and don't need to use taunt for another 14 sec), block that or hold block, face boss this way, keep up this and that buff. The most fun I have in the role is when I put a DPS setup in heavy armor and try to do everything at once.

When that happens, I'm alive when the rest of my group is dead NOT because I had my block button taped down or because I have so much health I can't possibly die unless I have a screw up of monstrous proportions, but because I managed blocking, healing, dodging, and mitigation buffs well enough that I came out ahead, even in a DLC dungeon while running 23k health - I can even contribute meaningful DPS.

I played tanks for years before I DPS'ed, and I enjoyed DPSing so much more because it felt extremely active. If I sat there and did nothing, or merely pressed a button every so often at a lazy pace, I got trash results. When I did my best to be quick at my rotation, refresh everything at the right time while keeping up everything else, etc, it was fun and I felt like I was actually doing something.

Tanking is easy. It's always been having to deal with not only being expected to lead the group, but being expected to be bored for x length of time depending on how competent/incompetent they were, or having to deal with the bad attitude of another group member because for whatever reason I can't carry them - dude, I'm sorry, the way numbers in this game work mean I can't carry you. It just doesn't work. <---That is what has driven me away from tanking at times. The weird and (to me) seemingly nonsensical expectations of my group combined with how passive my role is. I wouldn't mind taking an extra 5-10min to kill a boss if my own role wasn't so boring.

A while ago - maybe this is still the case, I haven't kept terribly up to date - it was expected that tanks wear the Ebon armor set that gives health to your group. Just...a flat health bonus. That requires no effort on your part. That's godawful boring.

Meanwhile, healers get Spellpower Cure, which requires at least some action on their part to give/get the benefit of the 5 piece. I feel this serves as a good example.

If you want a more active set to run you can run Torug's and Alkosh. Try getting really really high up time on those 2 at the same time, not the easiest thing in the world and trust me you got to be active then. Tanking is as passive as you make it, I don't think its passive at all, but that is cause I don't make it passive, I do everything that I can do while I tank. That always gives me something to do, same thing goes for healers, something people have already said is as passive as you want to make it, I claim the same thing for tanks.

"Tanking is as passive as you make it?" No it isn't. It's designed around blocking, sitting there, and managing resources and buffs, all while holding left click.

I want to actually have something to do. I want Blood Death Knight from WoW. I wanted something like that, I dont want to be falling asleep, and that's all current tanking is.

Just because you've found a way to make the system bearable does not mean the system isn't itself passive. Sorry.

Edit: Also. Alkosh is a *** trial set for one of the hardest raids around. You'd have to run it a hell of alot to get it, even with transmutation. Not exactly accessable for those who want to get into tanking.

I NEVER permablock on any of my tanks, its a waste of time. Sure, there are times you need to block for extended periods of time, but I would rather let my shields and resistances absorb lesser damage while I heavy attack with ice staff or S&B(depending on which resource I need to restore) so I can cast more utility spells for the rest of the group. Tanking is only passive for lazy perma-blockers.

If by passive you mean you arent doing damage, then that much is true...but me using chains to pull in a stray ad is active, in between blocking only the things that need to be blocked, casting shields for the group, heavy attacking, buffing, debuffing, taunting, I am always actively doing something. Now its true I dont have a rotation to follow for most fights, but because the situation is always changing from a tanking perspective, a rotation is impossible, which arguably makes it MORE active than the same rotation over and over when DPSing.

paulsimonps

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I feel that - how to say, 'normal'? - tanking is far too passive. It's taunt this (and don't need to use taunt for another 14 sec), block that or hold block, face boss this way, keep up this and that buff. The most fun I have in the role is when I put a DPS setup in heavy armor and try to do everything at once.

When that happens, I'm alive when the rest of my group is dead NOT because I had my block button taped down or because I have so much health I can't possibly die unless I have a screw up of monstrous proportions, but because I managed blocking, healing, dodging, and mitigation buffs well enough that I came out ahead, even in a DLC dungeon while running 23k health - I can even contribute meaningful DPS.

I played tanks for years before I DPS'ed, and I enjoyed DPSing so much more because it felt extremely active. If I sat there and did nothing, or merely pressed a button every so often at a lazy pace, I got trash results. When I did my best to be quick at my rotation, refresh everything at the right time while keeping up everything else, etc, it was fun and I felt like I was actually doing something.

Tanking is easy. It's always been having to deal with not only being expected to lead the group, but being expected to be bored for x length of time depending on how competent/incompetent they were, or having to deal with the bad attitude of another group member because for whatever reason I can't carry them - dude, I'm sorry, the way numbers in this game work mean I can't carry you. It just doesn't work. <---That is what has driven me away from tanking at times. The weird and (to me) seemingly nonsensical expectations of my group combined with how passive my role is. I wouldn't mind taking an extra 5-10min to kill a boss if my own role wasn't so boring.

A while ago - maybe this is still the case, I haven't kept terribly up to date - it was expected that tanks wear the Ebon armor set that gives health to your group. Just...a flat health bonus. That requires no effort on your part. That's godawful boring.

Meanwhile, healers get Spellpower Cure, which requires at least some action on their part to give/get the benefit of the 5 piece. I feel this serves as a good example.

If you want a more active set to run you can run Torug's and Alkosh. Try getting really really high up time on those 2 at the same time, not the easiest thing in the world and trust me you got to be active then. Tanking is as passive as you make it, I don't think its passive at all, but that is cause I don't make it passive, I do everything that I can do while I tank. That always gives me something to do, same thing goes for healers, something people have already said is as passive as you want to make it, I claim the same thing for tanks.

"Tanking is as passive as you make it?" No it isn't. It's designed around blocking, sitting there, and managing resources and buffs, all while holding left click.

I want to actually have something to do. I want Blood Death Knight from WoW. I wanted something like that, I dont want to be falling asleep, and that's all current tanking is.

Just because you've found a way to make the system bearable does not mean the system isn't itself passive. Sorry.

Edit: Also. Alkosh is a *** trial set for one of the hardest raids around. You'd have to run it a hell of alot to get it, even with transmutation. Not exactly accessable for those who want to get into tanking.

I NEVER permablock on any of my tanks, its a waste of time. Sure, there are times you need to block for extended periods of time, but I would rather let my shields and resistances absorb lesser damage while I heavy attack with ice staff or S&B(depending on which resource I need to restore) so I can cast more utility spells for the rest of the group. Tanking is only passive for lazy perma-blockers.

If by passive you mean you arent doing damage, then that much is true...but me using chains to pull in a stray ad is active, in between blocking only the things that need to be blocked, casting shields for the group, heavy attacking, buffing, debuffing, taunting, I am always actively doing something. Now its true I dont have a rotation to follow for most fights, but because the situation is always changing from a tanking perspective, a rotation is impossible, which arguably makes it MORE active than the same rotation over and over when DPSing.

I hate DPS'ing for the sole reason that its a set rotation. Its not reactionary, its a scripted sequence that you have to follow to the best of your ability to get the best possible result. Be really good at doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over and you are golden, to me that stuff is boring. Tanking for me is far more engaging and reactionary.

DMuehlhausen

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.
Edit: I know this isn't the best idea, but it's an example of what type of discussion is expected in this thread.

People need to stop being aholes to tanks and healers. Very rarely, and I mean RARELY is a wipe a tank or healers fault. It's almost always DD doing something they don't need to be doing, or thinking pulling the next 3 groups is a good idea. The ones that try to pull aggro from the boss, or think just burning everything ignoring mechanics is fine on fights like the Minotaur boss in Bloodroot Forge.

I always end up playing a healer cause there is a shortage of them. Sometimes it frankly isn't worth the headache I have to deal with from people who have no clue what to do, or are just trying to make things difficult.

Juju_beans

Everyone knows that running in PUGs is taking a risk. Good tanks have probably found homes in guilds and only run with them. Same with good healers.

Your best bet is to find a guild that actively runs dungeons/trials so that you don't have to PUG.

Maura_Neysa

VaranisArano wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

To be entirely fair, the usual tanking technique of grabbing aggro on a trash mob by throwing an AoE on them only works if your healer and DPS don't decide that they need to be the first ones to hit every mob in the dungeon.

When a group is patient enough to let the tank pull and do crowd control, it works great. When group isn't patient, the tank is just mopping up the trash mob like everyone else and the group has no idea that they're actually making it harder on themselves.

Warden here, good luck getting there first, and no I have most Boss spawn adds when they pop up.

QuebraRegra

my full respect to well played tanks... beyond that, I got nuthin.

jrgray93

I personally hate using my tank builds with randoms because it seems I usually end up with people doing less than 10k dps. If people would learn to do damage, I'd be more inclined to take on a role where I can do very little in that regard.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

After making a tank and being maxed out I find these things, pros and cons mixed together because I’m shotgunning here:

-It’s overly easy on 95% of content.
-I have to switch my attribute points every time I want to PvP.
-wait times for a group are super low
-after being a DPS for almost 4 years and being good at it, it’s easily noticeable playing with pugs who do little DPS and it makes me want to log off my tank to get on my DPS to speed the damn dungeon up.

In the end it’s a play style. Every game I’ve ever played tanks and healers were a pain to find but DPS is a dime a dozen. I don’t think there is anything you can do to make someone want to tank.

Maura_Neysa

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

Spacemonkey

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

paulsimonps

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

New weapons and skills would make for more variety in tanking, but how would that help in making it less of a "passive" role and more active like people have been complaining about? What is needed to make it more active. As well though, tanking is the role with most options when it comes to what you can wear, there are so many different builds and many that viable for end game in their own way, and in 4 man even more so, tons of options. Now sure, not a lot of options in terms of what type of weapons you have, and while we do have one more now as tanks I agree its really meh. But yea, I don't think skills and gear variations have any effect on how active the role is in this regard.

Caligamy_ESO

Give bonus transmutation geode or something similar to tanks and healers that queue through Group Finder. FFXIV did this very same thing to encourage tanks to queue in their duty finder, and it worked pretty well.

Spacemonkey

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

New weapons and skills would make for more variety in tanking, but how would that help in making it less of a "passive" role and more active like people have been complaining about? What is needed to make it more active. As well though, tanking is the role with most options when it comes to what you can wear, there are so many different builds and many that viable for end game in their own way, and in 4 man even more so, tons of options. Now sure, not a lot of options in terms of what type of weapons you have, and while we do have one more now as tanks I agree its really meh. But yea, I don't think skills and gear variations have any effect on how active the role is in this regard.

Well its a bit of an off-putting suggestion because everyone is reluctant to change anything balance-wise - but new 'tool' skills could be anything from a 'grab/charge' that would see you melee-grab an enemy and hop with it to another (great for grouping them up in some scenarios, it would have its niche) to synergy chains (roots that when activated send monsters to caster). I mean the sky is the limit in terms of new abilities/skills you can design for tanks. NPCs have a few, like the order of the hour skill where the 'tank' mob swaps places with the linked mob.

Or new mechanics (akin to the bash/block/dodge), maybe introduce guards (stance), etc...

*armor gear is all passive, not the variety skills bring.
**The thread is aptly named: 'How do we encourage tanking'. Now I might have missed it, but I've yet to see you do anything but refute or complain about others. I understand you like tanking as it is, but don't you have anything constructive to bring to the table?

EvilAutoTech

If you're looking to increase tanking for pugs, extra rewards is not going to help. Extra rewards would just bring more dps queueing as tank.

You will not get quarterbacks signing up to be linemen.

Sorry but I can't do sports analogies for most of the world.

Alpheu5

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Give bonus transmutation geode or something similar to tanks and healers that queue through Group Finder. FFXIV did this very same thing to encourage tanks to queue in their duty finder, and it worked pretty well.

I said something along these lines when someone suggested providing in-game rewards for giving feedback on the PTS: people will exploit any system where a reward is present. Giving extra rewards for tanking and healing would only increase the number of fake tanks and healers we see.

gr4yrang3r87

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...because this is the conclusion logical people come to.

I've been here far before that guy. But no, it's not possible two people entirely seperate from each other came to a conclusion, no, that's impossible. Paranoid nutter.

Wow, paranoid nutter? Ok, if it's not the same guy then you two have a lot in common. Yes, dps is SO HARD and yet why does everyone play it to where que times are so much longer? Hmm..might wanna think before you speak next time genius.

Maura_Neysa

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

New weapons and skills would make for more variety in tanking, but how would that help in making it less of a "passive" role and more active like people have been complaining about? What is needed to make it more active. As well though, tanking is the role with most options when it comes to what you can wear, there are so many different builds and many that viable for end game in their own way, and in 4 man even more so, tons of options. Now sure, not a lot of options in terms of what type of weapons you have, and while we do have one more now as tanks I agree its really meh. But yea, I don't think skills and gear variations have any effect on how active the role is in this regard.

I really love the Frost Staff at least on my Warden tank. Yes it could still use a little more work, and the Tri Focus passive is useless lMO. Ice however is a beast, slow, debuff and root in one. You just have to know how to set it up.

LordSemaj

gr4yrang3r87 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...because this is the conclusion logical people come to.

I've been here far before that guy. But no, it's not possible two people entirely seperate from each other came to a conclusion, no, that's impossible. Paranoid nutter.

Wow, paranoid nutter? Ok, if it's not the same guy then you two have a lot in common. Yes, dps is SO HARD and yet why does everyone play it to where que times are so much longer? Hmm..might wanna think before you speak next time genius.

Because something being hard makes it more fun. Notice how people are queuing for veteran dungeons instead of going out and enjoying slaughtering overland mobs effortlessly. DPS is indeed a hard role to perform well, lacking the survival of a tank, the replenishment of a healer, and being burdened with a need to hit keys in a specific sequential order while cancelling. Everyone plays it because it's capable of soloing, PVPing, and presents an actual challenge as opposed to the braindead tanking.

I've been a tank in every other MMO I've played but here it attempts to put me to sleep with how mind-numbingly simple they made aggro mechanics and defenses. At least playing a DPS feels like you're playing a game.

Maura_Neysa

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Runefang

LordSemaj wrote: »

gr4yrang3r87 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...because this is the conclusion logical people come to.

I've been here far before that guy. But no, it's not possible two people entirely seperate from each other came to a conclusion, no, that's impossible. Paranoid nutter.

Wow, paranoid nutter? Ok, if it's not the same guy then you two have a lot in common. Yes, dps is SO HARD and yet why does everyone play it to where que times are so much longer? Hmm..might wanna think before you speak next time genius.

-snip-

I've been a tank in every other MMO I've played but here it attempts to put me to sleep with how mind-numbingly simple they made aggro mechanics and defenses. At least playing a DPS feels like you're playing a game.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

-snip-

Interesting.

Runefang

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Honestly once you've got the game knowledge it's all fairly easy though. Well most of it anyway.

The actual mechanics of being a tank - taunting, blocking, gathering up mobs etc that's all easy though. It's certainly less intense than being DPS who have a lot higher actions per minute.

gr4yrang3r87

LordSemaj wrote: »

I've been a tank in every other MMO I've played but here it attempts to put me to sleep with how mind-numbingly simple they made aggro mechanics and defenses. At least playing a DPS feels like you're playing a game.

Dude, between you 3 $%& buddies, I don't know how many bags of popcorn but, this is some great &%$@ right here, continue.. continue.

LordSemaj

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Problem is this is why tanking is too simple as it is. That list is in every other MMO too PLUS MORE. Actual aggro mechanics, tanking rotations, emergency saves, role switching, ping pong, finite resource management, resistance potions, COOLDOWNS, etc. Stripped of all the mechanical characteristics of tanking, ESO is way too easy to tank in compared to other games. We already had to watch boss mechanics, party synergies, mobs, EVERYONE'S HEALTH/MANA TOTAL, and more in other games on top of managing a bunch of functional traits of the class itself. It's like tanking with training wheels in ESO. It needs to be made more challenging. Not to be confused with "harder" because ZOS will just nerf tanks again and think that's what we mean.