How do we encourage tanking?

disintegr8

Narvuntien wrote: »

The main problem is that just questing as a tank is basically impossible chore. So people make dps quest and skyshard hunt and then turn a character into a tank when they need them. So for the most part everyone has a DPS until they reach full build.

I reached Vet 16 and completed Cadwells Silver and Gold on a tank - built and spec'd as a tank from day 1..... So it is not impossible, just not suited to every ones idea of fun. My second tank was also in the middle of vet ranks when the switch to CP levels happened.

I love playing the role of a tank in dungeons, the only issue I have is that dungeons are simply DPS tests. Tanking a dungeon with lower level and inexperienced players can be far more fun than with high DPS, experienced players who don't really need you.

Even normal trials are no real challenge for decent tank builds as you simply keep the boss busy while the DPS burns everything.

Narvuntien

This is a supprisingly good discussion overall, for the standard of these forums...

I don't think the lack of AoE Taunt is an issue but..... I think having the option to do it with a particular sub optimal build would be nice. For example is Templar tanks should be able use Armor of the tormentor and thier Charge ability to AoE taunt, atm it only taunts the direct target. Then you could charge your way through a dungeon taunting all the trash.

The morrowing changes killed all these interesting tanking builds. I mean I have heard that nightblade sap tanks just barely still work but the leeching strikes change put them on life support. They have to use all these selfish sets to make them work. Templars have no CC to tank without shards (I use volcanic rune). Sorc tanks even possible? thier pets die and cost a million mana to use and they can't recast them, they really need a rework to thier "tank" abilities.

I honestly think Warden tanks are quiet good the issue is that warhorn is stronger than trees (which warden tank can keep it up infinitely). They need more offensive support skills to give them the option to drop warhorn for trees. It would also be a great buff to the Magwarden (which needs it) to have some force buffs in the Ice skill tree.

DKs have chains and claws to control trash. They get resource return for using thier ulitmate, (morrowind changes buffed tank set ups and killed magdk dps). They have a health scaling support shield that gives major mending.

Questing on a full tank is do able yeah, but a chore. The way I learnt to do it was run around taunting a whole bunch of mobs pulling them together and using my ulti to kill them all... slowly... with AoE damage.... There is just to many trash mobs everywhere. Perhaps the game needs less trash mobs in general and have fewer but harder mobs. I think vvaadenfel actually has less random mobs, at least they are much easier to avoid then you have those Oxes and trolls that are harder to fight. I think perhaps the base game needs that update.

Runefang

brandonv516 wrote: »

I for one don't need special consideration or encouragement to play my tank. I enjoy activating synergies, knowing when to let my block down, conserving resources smartly, and essentially "taking command".

It's not for everyone though.

And when you join a dungeon where you do 25% of the group's damage? So a normal dungeon goes from an easy 10 minute run to an hour slog?

That's fun maybe once, just to prove you can do it. But it gets old fast.

Nemesis7884

the main problem is that building for a tank kinda makes you slow for everything else... healer / dd you can just switch some stuff around - if you could do the same thing for tank the problem would be solved so thats what they should be focussing on... and some more interesting tanking sets with interesting effects could help as well

Metafae

I personally won't queue with my tank unless I know one of the dps going with me. I need to know I got someone who can carry the group dps. I feel the same when queuing with my healer.

ccfeeling

DK discussion I guess?

kringled_1

I felt this pain acutely today. vBH was fine, other than my screwup on Wavecutter because I didn't see him at first in the harpies, but all good in the long run. vEH1 had a 15-16k group dps with me doing about 20%, and a dps who was grabbing aggro with a frost staff, running ahead and dying, and being completely oblivious to group chat. nDS2 had even lower dps, a healer who was dead all the time in the grobull fight, and it took forever to get to the guardian...and then things got worse, even after briefing them on it the healer says ' i didnt see a green phase' after we'd been through 2 cycles of it. That one everyone else abandoned. I don't claim to be a great tank, and I'm even worse at dps but when group dps is not even twice what I can do myself in damage gear, it's slow at best and frustrating at worst.

Pele

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Tanking (and healing), to many, is 'being responsible for the run'. And they don't want that responsibility/pressure/etc. You're not going to get most of them to tank or heal with bribes.

Shortage of tanks & healers for groups & groupfinder has been an issue in MMOs for eons.

This.

You have to want to be a tank - not because the game gives you extra stuff for being one, but because you actually want to be one. Otherwise, you'll get a lot of 'fake tanks' just to get the extra reward.

The tank mentality isn't something many have because tanking comes with more responsibility and pressure than the other roles. Hell, people are afraid to even wear the crown in groups and raids.

OlafdieWaldfee

I love tanking, I even level in tank-spec.
If you are a tank at heart you don't need extra incentives.
(but to be fair ... I would rather eat my own foot than tank for PUGs. So maybe the solution is to make PUGing more bearable)

MLGProPlayer

Being a tank means you can't enjoy solo content (vMA, solo dungeon runs, solo grinding Skyreach, etc.) without re-speccing. This makes it less appealing than DPS.

YamiKuruku

i love to play with my Tanks and Healers, in fact i actually always end up respeccing my alts to tanks/healers but they don't do overland anymore, just dungeons and stuff.
I hate it when people say something like "we don't need tanks or healers, 4x DD is the way to go!" because cleary most people need them, do you ever think about the mechanics that tanks block or deal with? some people are so arrogant, rushing through the dungeon and ignoring the tank, pulling aggro everywhere

People should stop being asses and help each other and appreciate, when they get a tank or a healer in their group or start making an alt to see how it is as a tank and maybe they like it. Or when they queue as a tank use a friggin taunt. DPS always make tanks feel like they are not useful and nobody needs them :c #tanklivesmatter XD

I am not sure if we can encourage people to tank more, everything that comes to my mind would be unfair for the other roles.
And the "more hp = xp" is not a good idea because i already see many DDs with 20-30k HP in random Dungeons or overland :'D Or DDs in Heavy Armor
Maybe just a buff in dungeons when queued as a tank? But i am sure that people would then abuse it even more.

I guess the problem is that many people are afraid of PUGs and i mean, sure sometimes you get a foul potato but many times you get a good group or meet nice players (:
If not, just leave then if you can't handle it or bring some friends/guildies with you.

paulsimonps

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Being a tank means you can't enjoy solo content (vMA, solo dungeon runs, solo grinding Skyreach, etc.) without re-speccing. This makes it less appealing than DPS.

Thank the gods I don't actually enjoy Maelstrom and soloing dungeons, that crap be tedious as F. Honestly though, who actually enjoys Maelstrom? I mean people have to do it so many times to get the right weapon.... it stopped being fun after the first completion, and even that wasn't really fun, it was just stress relief when it was over, but I digress.

I will say this, overworld content as a Tank is not impossible. My main has done every single PvE Content in the game as a Tank save for Maelstrom, its not impossible, just takes a lot of patients. As well I did that crap when overworld content could still be challenging, looking at you Doshia.

Riddari

More creative ways to engage enemies that reflect the unique style of each class.

Perhaps each class has a unique taunt or utility that could make them tank well.

Just spit balling here but maybe
Templar could get resources back scaled off max health when they heal themselves and/or allies?
Or maybe mobs that enter their "house" while snb is equipped could have a higher chance to aggro?

I don't really play the other classes as much so I'm not as knowledgeable but things like that could go a long way to making it so every tank doesn't just have to be a DK to be taken seriously.

LordSemaj

Tanking doesn't exist because tanking isn't even a fleshed out role in this game. You can't encourage what was never there to begin with. It revolves around the most basic aggro mechanics ever conceived in a game, a game that is already primarily about high stat stacking one attribute and spamming damage. To encourage tanking they would have to actually implement tanking. Proper tanking. There is no shortage of tanks in a game like FFXIV, heck the tanks are even some of the most popular classes. All because the game provides players with functional tools to control the situation, upset the status quo, and trigger reversals or survive a setback. Providing multiple ways of obtaining aggro, heck making aggro management important at all instead of One Taunt to Rule Them All, and other necessary functions that go hand in hand with necessitating the basic gameplay required for one to thoroughly enjoying playing a tank in the first place would all need to come into existence out of the blue. Currently tank means the guy who focused his stats on health and armor (plus resources). It's such a braindead form of tanking that it's no wonder that people flock to the more interesting role of trying to stay alive, sustain resources, and master a rotation while cancelling that DPS have to do consistently.

Some people will still do it but they've lost the ones who can't stomach that monotony. It's like being given a flashlight while everyone else has M16s. Your job is to keep the flashlight pointed at the monsters so your friends can gun them down.

How long could you keep that up before getting bored?

ArchMikem

I tried Tanking, it was difficult for me to grasp. Im rather better as a Healer.

Personofsecrets

Well, tanking could be encouraged if it didn't become severely nerfed every patch while fixes for particular aspects of tanking were taking years to change.

Fischblut

I used to like to tank... before update 14

Revert all update 14 (and next) nerfs, also add taunt with 28m radius - these things would make me like tanking again (and even more, cause aoe taunt would be truly awesome).

Dorrow

I didn't read the whole thread, but taunt from 1h+shield heavy attacks or bash would be nice.

BoudiccaStormborn

code65536 wrote: »

There is no shortage of tanks.

Just a shortage of tanks who are willing to place themselves at the mercy of the poor DPS output of random groups that they--by virtue of being tanks--cannot carry.

This is a good insight. I run into this as a healer, as well. Tonight I had a group and everyone was pretty low CP. The random dungeon was one of the DLC dungeons and it's a tough one. The tank died on the first trash mob pull. We wiped on the second. I'm a good healer but I can't heal when I'm getting knocked down by trash mobs that the tank can't control. But of course, people want to blame the healer. You cannot heal someone who is being one shotted. You cannot heal when you're knocked down.

In terms of tanks? Leveling a tank is TEDIOUS. I made a DK tank and I really love her. I enjoy tanking. But questing takes forever because I do crap DPS. What can be done to encourage people to level as tank? Provide an NPC helper to people who are so many points into sword and board. It doesn't have to be an NPC who does amazing DPS. Make it low DPS. Trust me, even that would help.

dodgehopper_ESO

xaraan wrote: »

Long winded post, but...

ZoS needs to take a hard look at not just tanking, but themselves in order to help tanking IMO.

Just to say where I'm coming from game wise: I tank trials (vet, HMs), dungeons, I've run tanky pvp builds, etc. So I feel like it's all do-able as is, but most of my comments will come from a place of making it more balanced and enjoyable, not just do-able for me or a small % of tanks/builds.

What I mean when I say ZoS needs to look at themselves: They seem to make changes sometimes as if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

For Example: Changes have been made (some for sake of PvP) about permablocking and more closely - regen of stam while blocking. We know this wasn't just about pvp, or they could have added a no regen while blocking tag to battle spirit. I've seen mention from devs that they want to encourage more active play in the tanking position. Where as the other side that is making content doesn't take these changes into consideration and creates multiple scenarios in high end content, where you can't drop block consistently to regen or do heavy attacks. And swapping back and forth between ice staff blocking and standard blocking doesn't work as well because the rate you can get both your regens to tick (even in a build for it) while you use the other to block doesn't sync up, that's not even taking into consideration using any of those resources to taunt or use other skills.

Again, I'm talking the hard, end game content, not basic vet dungeons - most differences I'm talking about you'll only see when tanking with different classes on the newest vet HM dungeons and HM vet trials.

What it comes down to is this: Every class needs to be able to regen stam in some fashion while blocking, as long as they are working for it in some way besides the hour long heavy attack. This is a key reason that DK is so good for tanking - the stam return from using earthen and the resource return from using your ulti. The only other classes that offer something similar is Warden (if you run the stam morph of netch and the return is nearly worthless in that situaiton) and Sorc might be able to squeeze in Dark Exchanges in some situations. ZoS might read: DK is too strong then, but no - it's not that tanking is so OP on DK for this reason, it's that is it bearable and enjoyable vs using other classes (I've tried it on many classes, it's all do-able, but that's not what this is about). To me it allows me to be more active as a tank, using abilities and doing other things besides holding block and wondering whether my concern over resources is bigger than my concern over holding aggro.

Possible Solutions: DK's are fine as they are IMO, don't need any help here.

Templars - one morph of their little templar house circle they put down should have a stam return on it. Not a stam regen buff, but a flat return like the netch does for Warden (except maybe a bit higher since it actually costs resources to use).

Warden - in a pretty good spot too, but the netch is a bit weak for this use. Could look at making the netch have a magicka cost and give an upfront burst of stam before it's smaller tick kicks in.

Sorcs - they are in an OK spot with Dark exchange, but it's a bit hit or miss depending on the fight. The fact it gives a heal back as well might swing this into at least being worth the hassle.

NBs - the worst thing they did was start tinkering with siphoning strikes coming from a NB tank perspective (not so much saying it's bad for DPS, just talking from tank standpoint here). It used to be the thing that made it worthwhile to deal with the harder single target boss fights where you'll get less return to at least be awesome at dealing with waves of mobs before the boss fights.

In the end it all comes down to all classes being able to have fun with all roles. If players that are already being challenged with a new role or new content can't even use the class they actually enjoy playing, then it's going to limit the amount of tanks in the game period. Not even counting people not willing to tank because they just don't like that sort of role.

Other issues that dent other classes: No way to group mobs up as efficiently as a DK (chains) the warden pull comes close and it's good enough for them, but other classes are left hanging. You can use Swarm Mother, but that prevents you from running any other set for all of those classes. There is also no other Talons type skill past encase on a sorc.

I really wish the Undaunted line had been used to flesh out dungeon roles since that's what the Undaunted are all about. They could have added some sort of pull ability for any class to access, they could have used something like the webs to create a sort of talon's like snare that's use-able by everyone, etc. They already have managed to give every class a shield w/ bone shield (though there should be a magic morph) and 'shards/heal' with Orb. They could have used this line to bridge that role gap with other classes. And you could make them all synergy dependent to be strong like seems to be another goal of the Undaunted line - teamwork theme: Maybe the webs just create a snare, but when synergized actually stick mobs in place while like a hard CC for example. I'd have also added passives in this line to convert an ice staff into a tanking item instead of taking away the ability of ice staves to be usable as DPS weapons.

The other issue I'll lay at ZoS' feet is that they have a bad habit of nerfing something to try a fix, then seeing it doesn't work and nerfing something else and never looking at what was originally nerfed. Take for instance Black Rose - it went from being a bit strong so several people were giving it a try so it seemed to be the issue, but it wasn't the issue, so: then ZoS nerfed the constitution passive when everyone noticed it wasn't just Black Rose and never reverted the changes to Black Rose, so now it's technically double nerfed and virtually useless. If someone wants to dedicate a five piece set bonus to boosting that nerfed passive, they should correct this and allow it since the passive itself got nerfed. There are already sets that give better flat regen bonuses than this in the game - fix it. Might help in some of the areas mentioned above to balance things out for some builds.

The last thing on them is to take a look at content design. If you are going to continually add a bunch of one-shot mechanics that already have to be blocked (so you can't drop block in some situations at all and sometimes barely weapon swap) and you are going to give them to multiple mobs so that a tank has to pull aggro on more than just one boss or a couple mobs, then you need to look at what you are giving tanks to work with not just for blocking but resource wise.

Just to look at it from PvP side: Some of the changes to being tanky have been OK in PvP, some haven't mattered much at all, but mostly they changes haven't directly addressed the problems, they just chipped at it a little. Usually the builds that are bad for tanks in PvP are niche, you can look at that player, whose fighting them, what they are wearing, etc. and tell it's a combination of things and not just this class is broken or that skill is broken (usually). Those things should be addressed specifically and not just with blanket nerfs to passives or classes. The other side of the coin in PvP are that tanks should be allowed to be tanks, but they should be able to be super tanky and suddenly burst someone down, but if someone is just hard to kill and just stands there holding block, so what. Let them, focus them down after they watch their friends die, etc. But most of the fixes I've seen come to address the tanky builds in PvP have never fixed them, only hurt tanking in general.

Before random people pop up with I have this X class build, I'm sure there are several high end players out there that have tanks in various classes and pull off all content. Great, me too. I'm looking at the differences in the classes though and that some have an easier time of doing the basic job than others while still providing more for the team and frankly, there are major differences and problems between classes for the tanking role.


Past all this, it's just on the player. Maybe people just don't like support roles, you can't make them or make them feel penalized for not liking them (they probably already feel that way just trying to queue for dungeons as dps). There is also a tendency to have more pressure on your shoulders as a tank or healer (some rightly so, some not so much) and that's going to turn some off. I will say some of the best DPS players I've run with have also done a bit of tanking and healing and know what goes down on the other side and handle fights better, so it's worth a try to all, even if you don't want to do it full time.

This is a great post @xaraan and it encapsulates a lot of my problems with changes made in the game. You said everything very even-handed as well. I would really love it if developers could read this entire post of yours.

Cage_Lizardman

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Being a tank means you can't enjoy solo content (vMA, solo dungeon runs, solo grinding Skyreach, etc.) without re-speccing. This makes it less appealing than DPS.

My mag warden has two sets of gear, one is heavy armor+s&b doing 2k dps and can tank anything up to vDSA/vBF, and one with light armor, fire+frost staff, 20k dps and can still tank most things. Also does vMA just fine. Switching gear and skills I can do with one click with an addon.

Of course it depends what your standards are, if you want to tank vet trials and do 40k+ dps on the same char, I guess that would require respeccing.

I pug as tank using the dps setup in most dungeons, then I don't have to worry about the snipe spammers. But there's nothing I can do to fix 15k group dps in vRoM. I certainly understand why most do not pug as tanks. Sure you could add incentives for tanks in dungeons, but the most likely result would be a lot of crappy tanks along with the crappy dd's...

The game should do a better job at teaching people how to dd/tank/heal.

VaranisArano

I love tanking. I leveled my main character as a tank because I was playing alongside a friend on a really squishy DPS.

1. Its much nicer to level characters as tanks (or healers) now that ZOS redid the difficulty of random normal dungeons. This was a much appreciated change.

2. There's a distinct difference in effective end-game tanking and effective normal dungeon tanking.
End-game tanking is for pure tanks. These tanks prioritize health, resistances, endurance, group support, and crowd control. DPS can be meh. These tanks bring order to the battlefield and are absolutely crucial in trials and pretty important in Vet content, especially if the group DPS is lower. When group DPS is low, the group has to respect the mechanics, and managing mechanics is often the tank's job.
But for normal dungeons...all that group support and endurance isn't really needed and the lack of DPS makes it harder to carry a low DPS group since the mechanics often can be ignored in most normal dungeons. So an effective tank in a normal dungeon can sacrifice some of that group support and endurance for extra DPS because in a normal dungeon, extra DPS will carry the group more effectively than group support. My DPS/Tank is noticeably more effective at carrying groups quickly through random normals than my pure tank who can carry a bad group all day, but it might take all day.

And that's why people are all "You don't need a tank" which, as a tank I find incredibly annoying. Nobody quite gets whiplash like a tank going from "We NEED you" to "No one needs you, I can do it better with 3DDs." I understand why, it'll all about whether group support or more DPS is more effectively at managing or ignoring mechanics, but its still really annoying. Like, if you want me in groupfinder so your queues don't take forever, maybe you shouldn't be telling me I'm totally not necessary, hmmm?

MaleAmazon

Tanking vet content is fun, and I actually enjoy (mostly) the challenge of knowing different boss attacks and when to drop block so you can get your stamina back. It´s very different from running the same dungeon as a DPS.

However as has been mentioned, true tanking is only useful in a few select dungeons. I tank all normal and some vet content with my main DW DPS character (I have some tankiness added to her but she´s not at all a dedicated tank). Only like 5% of the time is spent actually tanking then.

Also it costs some time and money to respec to DPS for soloing. A healer only has to regear.


Would be fun if they put in some single player content aimed towards tanks. Even vet Maelstrom is treated as a DPS test it seems.

schroed360

code65536 wrote: »

There is no shortage of tanks.

Just a shortage of tanks who are willing to place themselves at the mercy of the poor DPS output of random groups that they--by virtue of being tanks--cannot carry.

Totally agree!

Huyen

We need a system like in WoW: preform a role that is needed in the LFG will give you a random reward. Problem solved.

dainswulf

Do what FFXIV does, whichever role in the dungeon finder is needed (Tank 99% of the time) gets a bonus. For ESO I'd say bonus XP and bonus key.

Wifeaggro13

Vhozek wrote: »

Questing as a tank is a dreadful chore and tanking for players in the overworld is a joke because nobody needs you unless they're killing a World Boss. That also doesn't mean that every dps needs a tank or that every tank needs a dps in all cases in the overworld.
An AoE taunt is not the solution we need. I used to want an AoE taunt my first month playing until I realized I rather have more to do as a tank than just pressing 1 button. I mean, it was already boring so it doesn't make sense to make it worse.

you barely even need one in this damn game its all avoidable with DPS. Truthfully its the base game design they dont really have any tanking mechanics for 95% of the content . Everyone plays DPS to max CP then gets mad when a few bosses need one. ZOS created this dynamic by dumbing down the game and removing any type of progression. Yopu dont need an AOE taunt you need actual tanking mechanics and CC mechanics. Pulling , lock downs ,charms. A whole bunch of stuff is missing from encounters other then red puddles and kill it quick.

Ajaxduo

You make mechanics which only tanks are capable of dealing with, but Zo$ is still better off removing role requirements from normals and giving extra bolster buffs. Why? Because most people will always player DPS no matter what.

Thorgrimn

Would be nice to give us a few skill choices that can do some damage, so when we solo we aren't hamstrung compared to every other class. Especially some type of aoe damage. I'm not asking to be anywhere near top dps etc, but just a few skills to help speed up questing, soloing. You also took away wrath which was perfectly fine since it depended on us getting hit. Don't get me wrong because tanking in dungeons is fun but then when we get out of that, it gets boring quickly. I've geared my tank setup for when I need to solo but it is still ridiculously slow compared to my dps toons. Options, we need more options.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

I have a tank and I have tanked almost everything with the exception of the last two dungeons. I have tried a group of randoms. No more. I will stick to my guild when they need a tank. I refuse to be blamed for people who can't do enough damage to kill the boss.