How do we encourage tanking?

Maura_Neysa

Runefang wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Honestly once you've got the game knowledge it's all fairly easy though. Well most of it anyway.

The actual mechanics of being a tank - taunting, blocking, gathering up mobs etc that's all easy though. It's certainly less intense than being DPS who have a lot higher actions per minute.

Those "higher actions per minute"are always the same. At least 50% of the time the tanks next skill is in respones to something they weren't expecting 2 Seconds ago.
Tanking is thinking on your feet.
DPS is a memorized skill rotation
Healing is half way between the two.

Edit: I suppose I should add the qualifier of hard content.
tanking the lllambris twins is in fact as boring as you say.

idk

iiYuki wrote: »

Problem with ESO compared with other MMO games (like WoW for example) is any class, theoretically, can perform any role and can spec into other skill lines outside of class skills to make them better better at their chosen spec. Its a shame they cant add bonus loot for tanks or healers maybe for their first dungeon or first few of a day, but people would abuse it to hell like they already do just for a faster queue.
In wow you have set specs for a class that performs either Tank, Healer or DPS and that's, that as far as end game goes a dps will always DPS, a tank will always tank, and a healer will always heal.

No reason for special loot for tanks and healers.

4 man content is the only place a tank has some shortage. Simple solution is swap out gear and skills and your dps is now a tank. Do you really think all those healers are actually healers. Nope, many are dps and swap out a few things so they can heal the dungeons.

Trials only need 2 tanks max and every normal trial can be done with only one tank.

So, encourage players to be tanks to fill the 4 man dungeon queues and you'll be telling them they cannot do trials because we now have to many tanks in game. Sorry but thanks for tanking this little 4 man dungeon.

So, again, the easy solution is doing what many of us have already done, have a tanking off spec for some characters. Easy Peasy.

Silver_Strider

If ZOS would give every class the proper tools needed to tank effectively (Proper resource management and CC skills) instead of constantly nerfing any Tank playstyle to Oblivion, maybe we'd see more tanks.

josiahva

LordSemaj wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Problem is this is why tanking is too simple as it is. That list is in every other MMO too PLUS MORE. Actual aggro mechanics, tanking rotations, emergency saves, role switching, ping pong, finite resource management, resistance potions, COOLDOWNS, etc. Stripped of all the mechanical characteristics of tanking, ESO is way too easy to tank in compared to other games. We already had to watch boss mechanics, party synergies, mobs, EVERYONE'S HEALTH/MANA TOTAL, and more in other games on top of managing a bunch of functional traits of the class itself. It's like tanking with training wheels in ESO. It needs to be made more challenging. Not to be confused with "harder" because ZOS will just nerf tanks again and think that's what we mean.

Not sure what you are talking about, we have to watch everyone's health in this game. If I am tanking the tree-minder in vROM and someone goes down in the last 30%....guess what? I am the only group member who is able to pick them back up again without dying. If by "actual aggro mechanics" you mean an aggro meter, that isn't any different than a timer really. Role switching? You can do that here with a tank just as easily, you just have to build for it, off heals and off dps are a thing on a couple of my tanks. The point being that I already do all that you are talking about, and if you aren't, then you aren't tanking right. If you think your only job is to taunt and to survive...well, you are just being carried.

paulsimonps

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

New weapons and skills would make for more variety in tanking, but how would that help in making it less of a "passive" role and more active like people have been complaining about? What is needed to make it more active. As well though, tanking is the role with most options when it comes to what you can wear, there are so many different builds and many that viable for end game in their own way, and in 4 man even more so, tons of options. Now sure, not a lot of options in terms of what type of weapons you have, and while we do have one more now as tanks I agree its really meh. But yea, I don't think skills and gear variations have any effect on how active the role is in this regard.

Well its a bit of an off-putting suggestion because everyone is reluctant to change anything balance-wise - but new 'tool' skills could be anything from a 'grab/charge' that would see you melee-grab an enemy and hop with it to another (great for grouping them up in some scenarios, it would have its niche) to synergy chains (roots that when activated send monsters to caster). I mean the sky is the limit in terms of new abilities/skills you can design for tanks. NPCs have a few, like the order of the hour skill where the 'tank' mob swaps places with the linked mob.

Or new mechanics (akin to the bash/block/dodge), maybe introduce guards (stance), etc...

*armor gear is all passive, not the variety skills bring.
**The thread is aptly named: 'How do we encourage tanking'. Now I might have missed it, but I've yet to see you do anything but refute or complain about others. I understand you like tanking as it is, but don't you have anything constructive to bring to the table?

Yes you did miss it, I did suggest adding role specific achievements that would grant dyes, titles or costumes, such things are always something that draws people in, the trick is the make the achievements in the right way. I am also of the mind set that tanking is pretty good as is atm but am interested to hear other peoples opinion on why they think it is not, which is why I highlighted the bit about people calling it a passive role. Glad to see thou that there are some in the thread that agrees with me that its not as passive as others believe but to each their own. Though I will say this of course that there are Tanking classes that are in dire need of a buff, Templars and Nightblades most of all in my opinion. But what is expected of a tank in its role is pretty ok as is.

What does have to change is how the devs create 4 man content for with the tanks in mind. They have gotten better but it still needs work. The last 4 DLC dungeons are great and most groups still use a proper tank for the job, but most of everything else does not require it at all and more and more people can do it without one. Its sad to see a tank being an obsolete role in so many areas of the game. Trials are the place tanking shines but they should be shining more in other areas of the game as well.

Encouraging people to tank is to encourage people to take a thankless role that is weighed down by responsibility, its also a role more unlike the others than the other 2 are from each others. Almost no rotation, more reactionary gameplay, positioning becomes much more of an issue and raid awareness becomes a must for even a new tank, its far more unforgiving as a tank to make mistakes than if a healer or DPS were to make one. So how to encourage that, its tricky, its all in your playstyle, not everyone enjoys tanking, for any of the reasons given, what we can do is give more rewards for those that actually want to try. But again the achievements related to such things needs to be done in a way where healers or DPSs queuing or putting themselves as tanks can exploit it for easy rewards. This again comes back to the fact that bosses are too easy in veteran dungeons, they hit too low with their tauntable attacks that almost anyone can face tank these bosses with ease. The devs need to man up a bit and make the bosses require tanks, at least stronger ones than what is required now, at the moment 4 man content bosses outside of DLC are jokes.

Nifty2g

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Maura_Neysa

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

LordSemaj

josiahva wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Problem is this is why tanking is too simple as it is. That list is in every other MMO too PLUS MORE. Actual aggro mechanics, tanking rotations, emergency saves, role switching, ping pong, finite resource management, resistance potions, COOLDOWNS, etc. Stripped of all the mechanical characteristics of tanking, ESO is way too easy to tank in compared to other games. We already had to watch boss mechanics, party synergies, mobs, EVERYONE'S HEALTH/MANA TOTAL, and more in other games on top of managing a bunch of functional traits of the class itself. It's like tanking with training wheels in ESO. It needs to be made more challenging. Not to be confused with "harder" because ZOS will just nerf tanks again and think that's what we mean.

Not sure what you are talking about, we have to watch everyone's health in this game. If I am tanking the tree-minder in vROM and someone goes down in the last 30%....guess what? I am the only group member who is able to pick them back up again without dying. If by "actual aggro mechanics" you mean an aggro meter, that isn't any different than a timer really. Role switching? You can do that here with a tank just as easily, you just have to build for it, off heals and off dps are a thing on a couple of my tanks. The point being that I already do all that you are talking about, and if you aren't, then you aren't tanking right. If you think your only job is to taunt and to survive...well, you are just being carried.

You don't know what I'm talking about because you misread the post by skimming through it. I didn't say we don't have to watch everyone's health in this game, quite the opposite. The person I quoted claimed that we have to know boss mechanics, know priority mobs, and watch everyone's health and I confirmed that we had to that in other games too in addition to actual tanking mechanics built into the class. You're not getting that we have multiple jobs to perform, and I'm aware of that and agreed with it, but those are all things we also had to do in other games on top of managing cooldowns and aggro builders. Taunting is not how you tank, nor do most games make it a guaranteed stick. Taunting is how you undo a mistake yet here it's Boss Super Glue, and if you think "actual aggro mechanics" are the same as a taunt timer then you're not a very good tank.

Nifty2g

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

What to both of your points? Mobs don't change no matter how much you think they seem to, they do the same stuff every time, they don't have infinite abilities that they can use and surprise you with some random ability you've never seen before after tanking it 100 times.
All of the stuff you mentioned is part of a rotation

I don't see how dealing with AI is more dynamic than dealing with actual players

Doctordarkspawn

gr4yrang3r87 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...because this is the conclusion logical people come to.

I've been here far before that guy. But no, it's not possible two people entirely seperate from each other came to a conclusion, no, that's impossible. Paranoid nutter.

Wow, paranoid nutter? Ok, if it's not the same guy then you two have a lot in common. Yes, dps is SO HARD and yet why does everyone play it to where que times are so much longer? Hmm..might wanna think before you speak next time genius.

...Again, you have no logic in you.

Everyone plays DPS because it's a common roll. Support rolls are a mindset not many people play. It requires a concious decision to make other peoples lives easier, and not many people are that selfless. Just because most people play DPS, does not mean they are good at DPS.

Stop. Talking. You have no place in this conversation, at all.

POps75p

triple xp and gold for every dungon they tank. but you need to stop anyone from listing that they are a tank, but only dps, no clue how you could do that if they had a reward (maybe they have to complete and kill the boss on the 1st try

Maura_Neysa

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

What to both of your points? Mobs don't change no matter how much you think they seem to, they do the same stuff every time, they don't have infinite abilities that they can use and surprise you with some random ability you've never seen before after tanking it 100 times.
All of the stuff you mentioned is part of a rotation

I don't see how dealing with AI is more dynamic than dealing with actual players

Because it isn’t just the players, it’s the AI reaction to the players.. Players -1 thing to watch, Players and AI - 2 things to watch. Tanks watch everything that healers watch PLUS the AI reaction to what the players are doing.

Not to mention the fact that the healer doesn’t have to have any idea what the player is doing, just BoL them through their (not so polite words go here)

gr4yrang3r87

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...Again, you have no logic in you.

Everyone plays DPS because it's a common roll. Support rolls are a mindset not many people play. It requires a concious decision to make other peoples lives easier, and not many people are that selfless. Just because most people play DPS, does not mean they are good at DPS.

Stop. Talking. You have no place in this conversation, at all.

Again you set yourself up for disaster. Your "logic" actually applies to all roles, only DPS is more of a... *cough*No brainer*cough* Enjoy waiting 20 minutes for your que next time doh.

Doctordarkspawn

gr4yrang3r87 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...Again, you have no logic in you.

Everyone plays DPS because it's a common roll. Support rolls are a mindset not many people play. It requires a concious decision to make other peoples lives easier, and not many people are that selfless. Just because most people play DPS, does not mean they are good at DPS.

Stop. Talking. You have no place in this conversation, at all.

Again you set yourself up for disaster. Your "logic" actually applies to all roles, only DPS is more of a... *cough*No brainer*cough* Enjoy waiting 20 minutes for your que next time doh.

Objectively incorrect.

Queue times are really short for tanks. Because of the shortage of tanks compared to DPS, same with healer.

Thanks for playing.

Thealteregoroman

brandonv516 wrote: »

I for one don't need special consideration or encouragement to play my tank. I enjoy activating synergies, knowing when to let my block down, conserving resources smartly, and essentially "taking command".

It's not for everyone though.

@brandonv516

Runefang

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

What to both of your points? Mobs don't change no matter how much you think they seem to, they do the same stuff every time, they don't have infinite abilities that they can use and surprise you with some random ability you've never seen before after tanking it 100 times.
All of the stuff you mentioned is part of a rotation

I don't see how dealing with AI is more dynamic than dealing with actual players

Because it isn’t just the players, it’s the AI reaction to the players.. Players -1 thing to watch, Players and AI - 2 things to watch. Tanks watch everything that healers watch PLUS the AI reaction to what the players are doing.

Not to mention the fact that the healer doesn’t have to have any idea what the player is doing, just BoL them through their (not so polite words go here)

I don't understand the comment about having to watch the AI reaction to the players. Personally I just hit the boss with a taunt and they hit me regardless of what the DPS do. If they're a boss that can't be taunted I chase the boss around until I can taunt again.

DPS have to maintain a fast paced rotation while also avoiding most of the mechanics that the tank does. They also have to watch the tank, healer and other dps to make sure they're positioned well relative to them.

Runefang

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

What to both of your points? Mobs don't change no matter how much you think they seem to, they do the same stuff every time, they don't have infinite abilities that they can use and surprise you with some random ability you've never seen before after tanking it 100 times.
All of the stuff you mentioned is part of a rotation

I don't see how dealing with AI is more dynamic than dealing with actual players

Because it isn’t just the players, it’s the AI reaction to the players.. Players -1 thing to watch, Players and AI - 2 things to watch. Tanks watch everything that healers watch PLUS the AI reaction to what the players are doing.

Not to mention the fact that the healer doesn’t have to have any idea what the player is doing, just BoL them through their (not so polite words go here)

I don't understand the comment about having to watch the AI reaction to the players. Personally I just hit the boss with a taunt and they hit me regardless of what the DPS do. If they're a boss that can't be taunted I chase the boss around until I can taunt again.

DPS have to maintain a fast paced rotation while also avoiding most of the mechanics that the tank does. They also have to watch the tank, healer and other dps to make sure they're positioned well relative to them.

Nifty2g

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

For the love of.... No No AOE aggro Tanking in this game is better than any other mmo I've played. AOE agro is for lazy, no talent tanking.

An AoE Aggro-Grab or DoT (akin to Consecrate)would also make Solo Tank Leveling more enjoyable, leading to more tanks at end-game.

An AoE DoT/Aggro skill for an initial aggro-grab, and to herd trash packs makes perfect sense in a game with the combat style of ESO. Given how many DPS skills have targeted effect zones, had the skills in the game evolved organically Tanks would already have an AoE aggro skill.

All The Best

Solo Tank leveling- change gear, thats it. Necro and War Maiden for me.
Initial aggro-grab- already here. I use Blockade of Frost, Templars-Ritual of Retrabution, NB-Sap Essence, DK- Volatile Armor. (or chains and talons)

If someone can't find a way to hold aggro without taunting, they're never going to wrap their mind around the Boss mechanics

That also doesnt really work on bosses that spawn mobs as usually AoEs are already all over the place. I use ritual of Retribution for exactly this, but as others said. If DPS went in first, or if AoEs from em are on the groun when they spawn, you are going to need taunt.

Bloodroot Forge is a perfect example of how the single target taunting gets crazy. You need to keep aggro on bosses (obviously) + any bears that spawn cz they one hit people, add in dodging poison flowers and getting out of root (otherwise you cant span view to double check for the bears etc...) and already its a heck of an active fight for any tank, but then add the DPSes dying to the wolves...... you can't aggro everything, you just can't. Sure the DPS could maybe be better. Or maybe we could have a multi-target taunt, aka AoE. Now I understand the downside - but there are definitely situations where YES an AoE taunt would be hella nice.

Yes that fight is work, but you deffinitly can control all the adds in that fight.

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Tanking is the most active job in the game. The problem isn't that taking is boring, its the opposite. Tanking is the most dynamic job in the game. It isn't a set rotation to just memorize and cycle through, and its way more than just spam a skill when you see a health bar dip. Thats all either of the other roles need to do to not get exposed. A tank has to control the whole battlefield, and stay on top of every mechanic or everyone will know it.

I main a tank and I agree with most of what you say except when you said it's not a set rotation to memorize. Once you memorize boss/mob movements and all that, it becomes quite static. The only "dynamic" role I personally think is a healer. As a tank you're going up against AI which has set timers on certain attacks, you choose where you want them to stand etc, that is part of memorizing it. Healers can't exactly control the way a teammate decides to handle how they take damage and that is why it is a more dynamic role. Tanking is more of a leadership role than a support role -- you can't exactly be a mute tank.

I like tanking for another reason, positioning bosses, coming up with strategies cause you see the whole fight and what people do, buffing/debuffing, stacking trash packs together, holding bosses a certain way, the call outs, offering suggestions to dd and healers. I like to theorycraft all of that the most and tank has the best role for it.

Tanking is subjective, it's hard to encourage players to take the role because it is a very focused role, some people don't like pressure, some people don't like having to call out and lead the way tanks do. That is why it really isn't as popular as it is. And tanking in ESO requires a lot of communication and is pretty demanding of you to pick up the mechanics quickly and offer suggestions and know how to fix your mistakes. No matter how much they change nerf or buff wise, the importance of how bosses are tanked, how trash is stacked, how much you buff/debuff your group, how much you call out or lead your group is not going to change.

Tanking is dynamic because ;
1 - Bosses skip mechanics depending on DPS
2 - Everything you just said about healers. Headless chicken DPS means the tank is the first one to lose the healers attention. As it should be. It also changes what the mobs do meaning I have to react to that, be it taunt, chains(Gate) or turn the boss, or even rez. As stated before often the tanks the only one who can afford to be stationary for the length ot a rez.

I only heal and tank, tanking is absolutely the more envoled. Its also the one most capable of compensating for bad DPS / Healers.

What to both of your points? Mobs don't change no matter how much you think they seem to, they do the same stuff every time, they don't have infinite abilities that they can use and surprise you with some random ability you've never seen before after tanking it 100 times.
All of the stuff you mentioned is part of a rotation

I don't see how dealing with AI is more dynamic than dealing with actual players

Because it isn’t just the players, it’s the AI reaction to the players.. Players -1 thing to watch, Players and AI - 2 things to watch. Tanks watch everything that healers watch PLUS the AI reaction to what the players are doing.

Not to mention the fact that the healer doesn’t have to have any idea what the player is doing, just BoL them through their (not so polite words go here)

What kind of tanking are you doing where you need to watch healers and players? The only thing you do is watch how players damage the boss but once that is sorted is when it becomes memory, rinse and repeat.

What is AI reaction to the players, AI doesn't react as far as I'm aware.

gr4yrang3r87

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Objectively incorrect.

Queue times are really short for tanks. Because of the shortage of tanks compared to DPS, same with healer.

Thanks for playing.

No @$+& Sherlock, tell me something I don't already know.

Thanks for not playing, loL.

Maura_Neysa

@Runefang @Nifty2g do either of you have tanking experance? Like vet DLC/trials experance?

Let me set a scene. Bloodyhorn, Faulkreath Hold. There’s all the floor crap, that everyone has to watch the same. There’s Bloodyhorn, and there are 4 Atronoch. You have the boss taunted, you pull in all the Atronochs to burn. The pull is first, but that means they’re still aggro’d to the DPS. The DPS should be somewhere near the same pillar as me, ready for the coming shout. However, one little headless chicken couldn’t handle the heat of the agro, and ran away. Now I have 3 fat Atronochs in my way while I try and grab the forth, don’t forget there are what ten? pillars inturupting line of sight. Better not lose Bloodyhorn either, his HA is like a 20k+ Hit.

Now those Atronochs where easy, they spawn in the same place every time. I stand on one and lay my 3 Frozen gates under the others, and bam they are sitting pretty for that destro ulti. All I should have to do is spin around and hit each with a taunt, and they’ll be dead before I need to refresh.... unless of course one was kited away.

There are at least 3 or 4 full fledge trials capable tanks posting in this tread. Everyone one of them is saying the same thing. Tanking is complex and not for those who want simple game play.

Nifty2g

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Runefang @Nifty2g do either of you have tanking experance? Like vet DLC/trials experance?

Let me set a scene. Bloodyhorn, Faulkreath Hold. There’s all the floor crap, that everyone has to watch the same. There’s Bloodyhorn, and there are 4 Atronoch. You have the boss taunted, you pull in all the Atronochs to burn. The pull is first, but that means they’re still aggro’d to the DPS. The DPS should be somewhere near the same pillar as me, ready for the coming shout. However, one little headless chicken couldn’t handle the heat of the agro, and ran away. Now I have 3 fat Atronochs in my way while I try and grab the forth, don’t forget there are what ten? pillars inturupting line of sight. Better not lose Bloodyhorn either, his HA is like a 20k+ Hit.

Now those Atronochs where easy, they spawn in the same place every time. I stand on one and lay my 3 Frozen gates under the others, and bam they are sitting pretty for that destro ulti. All I should have to do is spin around and hit each with a taunt, and they’ll be dead before I need to refresh.... unless of course one was kited away.

There are at least 3 or 4 full fledge trials capable tanks posting in this tread. Everyone one of them is saying the same thing. Tanking is complex and not for those who want simple game play.

@Maura_Neysa I have tanked and completed all current hardmode trials, done all the dungeons too.

I don't understand what your example is meant to prove, because it is basically just proving what I said lol, there is nothing dynamic about that and you just said it, they spawn in the same place, you aggro them all etc. Unless you are talking about the dd who is running around, thats when you say stop running, or you just tab target it? But lets say you told the dd to stop running that goes back to where I said tanking is more of a leadership role. I never said it's easy, check out my first reply I'm simply disagreeing with you that it is the most dynamic role, because it isn't, that would go to healers as healers main goal is dealing with real players, healers can not control how players deal with their damage, if a player misses a shield or stands in red AoE, they can't control how players spend their magicka or other resources, healers are not dealing with AI they are dealing with actual players and that is why it is more dynamic because it is highly unpredictable. And just because I'm saying this doesn't mean I am shitting on tanking, it is my main role and I enjoy it the most because of what is involved with it -- it really is the toughest role, and if you do not exactly have the personality for it, then it is quite hard to "encourage" tanking.

Betsararie

go and tank yourself

blacksghost

How to encourage tanks?

stop slagging them off in forums. Ok some may be poor at the job but they will improve given half a chance..

Taunts? list the taunts you believe they need..discourage the running far ahead of everyone else..

Basically encourage all roles to understand the difficulties every other role faces. In dungeons make doors that won't let you through and forward until all the group have pressed E to open.

Stop slagging each other off for what they don't do, stop treating a slower success as a fail.

Hold Tank classes, hold healer classes hold DPS classes no role is perfectly executed from the get go..

As to what Zenimax can do, widen the scope of training quests..

You must Tank at least 3 quest you must heal at least 3 quests etc..Early on in the game learning is key..

How much DPS does the avg tank do? how much does the avg healer do..Glorifying DPS as if its all that matters makes Tanks and healers automatically feel they have missed something..

Maura_Neysa

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Runefang @Nifty2g do either of you have tanking experance? Like vet DLC/trials experance?

Let me set a scene. Bloodyhorn, Faulkreath Hold. There’s all the floor crap, that everyone has to watch the same. There’s Bloodyhorn, and there are 4 Atronoch. You have the boss taunted, you pull in all the Atronochs to burn. The pull is first, but that means they’re still aggro’d to the DPS. The DPS should be somewhere near the same pillar as me, ready for the coming shout. However, one little headless chicken couldn’t handle the heat of the agro, and ran away. Now I have 3 fat Atronochs in my way while I try and grab the forth, don’t forget there are what ten? pillars inturupting line of sight. Better not lose Bloodyhorn either, his HA is like a 20k+ Hit.

Now those Atronochs where easy, they spawn in the same place every time. I stand on one and lay my 3 Frozen gates under the others, and bam they are sitting pretty for that destro ulti. All I should have to do is spin around and hit each with a taunt, and they’ll be dead before I need to refresh.... unless of course one was kited away.

There are at least 3 or 4 full fledge trials capable tanks posting in this tread. Everyone one of them is saying the same thing. Tanking is complex and not for those who want simple game play.

@Maura_Neysa I have tanked and completed all current hardmode trials, done all the dungeons too.

I don't understand what your example is meant to prove, because it is basically just proving what I said lol, there is nothing dynamic about that and you just said it, they spawn in the same place, you aggro them all etc. Unless you are talking about the dd who is running around, thats when you say stop running, or you just tab target it? But lets say you told the dd to stop running that goes back to where I said tanking is more of a leadership role. I never said it's easy, check out my first reply I'm simply disagreeing with you that it is the most dynamic role, because it isn't, that would go to healers as healers main goal is dealing with real players, healers can not control how players deal with their damage, if a player misses a shield or stands in red AoE, they can't control how players spend their magicka or other resources, healers are not dealing with AI they are dealing with actual players and that is why it is more dynamic because it is highly unpredictable. And just because I'm saying this doesn't mean I am shitting on tanking, it is my main role and I enjoy it the most because of what is involved with it -- it really is the toughest role, and if you do not exactly have the personality for it, then it is quite hard to "encourage" tanking.

Xbox here, there’s no tab target, I have to get them targeted first before I highlight. As for the rest I don’t know to explain it better, then it’s both what the AI does and what people do. Assuming the AI is even predictable, Bloodyhorn certainly skips mechanics, then throughs them back in later.
You live in some mericle world if you don’t ever get that one guy who doesn’t have a mic, or just plain doesn’t listen. Unless you just don’t ever PuG?

Doctordarkspawn

gr4yrang3r87 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Objectively incorrect.

Queue times are really short for tanks. Because of the shortage of tanks compared to DPS, same with healer.

Thanks for playing.

No @$+& Sherlock, tell me something I don't already know.

Thanks for not playing, loL.

And yet you said tank queue times are long, for...some reason.

But, then again, you seem disjointed. Dunno if you even understand what you or others are arguing at this point.

deleted008293

Increasing demand for tanks and healers by creating content where you need more tanks and healers might solve this situation, forcing players to play multiple classes as well.
6 man content where u need more than 1 tank and 1 healer.
12 man content where you need more than 2 tanks.

Differential reward.

idk

Silver_Strider wrote: »

If ZOS would give every class the proper tools needed to tank effectively (Proper resource management and CC skills) instead of constantly nerfing any Tank playstyle to Oblivion, maybe we'd see more tanks.

Zos has the goal that a tank does not merely taunt and hold block. They are interested in a more active resource management game play vs permablocking. Tanking has not been nerfed to oblivion.

Other than stating we need more tanks, I do not see the reasoning behind it. Certainly Zos should not make it boring simple to tank.

Now, skilled tanks to handle the most challenging content is a different story, but that does not seem to be what this thread is about.

My guess is this thread is merely about 4 man dungeons in which DPS have the simple solution of an off spec, just change gear and skills and you are a tank. Problem solved.

gr4yrang3r87

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dunno if you even understand what you or others are arguing at this point.

Well, it's not your mom for once..

Silver_Strider

idk wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

If ZOS would give every class the proper tools needed to tank effectively (Proper resource management and CC skills) instead of constantly nerfing any Tank playstyle to Oblivion, maybe we'd see more tanks.

Zos has the goal that a tank does not merely taunt and hold block. They are interested in a more active resource management game play vs permablocking. Tanking has not been nerfed to oblivion.

Other than stating we need more tanks, I do not see the reasoning behind it. Certainly Zos should not make it boring simple to tank.

Now, skilled tanks to handle the most challenging content is a different story, but that does not seem to be what this thread is about.

My guess is this thread is merely about 4 man dungeons in which DPS have the simple solution of an off spec, just change gear and skills and you are a tank. Problem solved.

They're nerfing tank PLAYSTYLES, not tanks in general, although they did that as well. The no stamina regen during block hurt many a Templar Tank but they were able to work around that by using repentence on Engine Guardian but ZOS took that away as well, then came the nerf to Blazing Shield Tanks. NB sustain took the largest hit with Siphoning Strike changes, single handedly murdering so many Saptanks in an instant. Sorc Shield Tanks got their Shield duration cut by almost 3/4.

These were all viable and fun tank builds that were used primarily in 4 man content because they weren't effective enough in trial settings but have all gone the way of the dodo. So tell me, how does removing the tools these tanks had translate into making tanking more than Permablocking when NONE of these tanks were primarily focused on permablocking but rather had a gimmick that worked effectively for tanking til they were nerfed?

Yaada

code65536 wrote: »

There is no shortage of tanks.

Just a shortage of tanks who are willing to place themselves at the mercy of the poor DPS output of random groups that they--by virtue of being tanks--cannot carry.

Hate to agree, but this right here.

I tanked recently in a vet random, and they were already a quarter of the way into Banished Cells. I asked, your tank left? And they said the tank d/c'd and never game back.

After continuing with them with the first few trash mobs, and first boss.... I could tell why the tank left. The dps and heals were really poor.

This being Banished Cells, and you guys know, with poor dps and healing (im talking really poor dps) that the last boss is just not doable.

I felt that I wanted to give them a solid chance, because really they werent bad players, just poor dps. And wanted to encourage them in working on their dps to promote better game play and fun for them, as well as getting them to improve to better our community over all.

But I got to be honest here.... it was really tough tanking, and I felt like leaving the group to just move on and find a hard hitting dps/healing group so I could get done and go to bed.